Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Dec 25, 2018 11:15:17 GMT -5
It shouldn't matter if Firestar is a leader, as for all ShadowClan could know, that's Firestar's last life. That's it for him if it is. I don't like people thinking that just because a leader has nine lives, they're more expendable when a change in leadership could drastically change things. They are as equally valued as their warriors. Their nine lives balance out the fact that they are a leader, because people will gun for a leader to lower morale. In the end, it's still wrong for Russetfur to do what she did. She intentionally killed Firestar, while her death was an accident. She broke the code, as her life wasn't in danger, just a scrap of bad land. It wasn't self-defense. They're given 9 lives for a reason, to serve their clan with each one, if he wanted to give his last life invading another clan's territory, wouldn't that be his problem? Cats die in battle, regardless. Also, calling the territory a scrap of bad land doesn't diminish the actions of ThunderClan who went out of their way to cross the border and try to steal territory that didn't belong to them in moons. It's no different than how Russetfur tried to steal territory from ThunderClan before and was justifiably beaten for it, Firestar literally went for her throat first thing upon arriving, and she luckily escaped from him before retreating. But that doesn't mean you can take them willy nilly, battle is bloody and risky, yes, but you shouldn't intentionally go for a kill like Russetfur did. She was clinging to his throat while he was trying to get her off. He was slithering in his own blood and she had her jaws clamped shut. Lionblaze raked her flank with claws half-sheathed because he wanted her to let go. Firestar was slunking down to his belly and it took Lionblaze to grab her neck and yank her off, killing her, for her to let go. She had an obvious intention to kill. It wasn't in self-defense. This is from chapter 23 and 24 of Fading Echoes. (Can't give an exact book page because of how I downloaded it from my library to my kindle.)
"It's no different than how Russetfur tried to steal territory from ThunderClan before and was justifiably beaten for it, Firestar literally went for her throat first thing upon arriving, and she luckily escaped from him before retreating."
When exactly was this?
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Dec 25, 2018 14:43:53 GMT -5
They're given 9 lives for a reason, to serve their clan with each one, if he wanted to give his last life invading another clan's territory, wouldn't that be his problem? Cats die in battle, regardless. Also, calling the territory a scrap of bad land doesn't diminish the actions of ThunderClan who went out of their way to cross the border and try to steal territory that didn't belong to them in moons. It's no different than how Russetfur tried to steal territory from ThunderClan before and was justifiably beaten for it, Firestar literally went for her throat first thing upon arriving, and she luckily escaped from him before retreating. But that doesn't mean you can take them willy nilly, battle is bloody and risky, yes, but you shouldn't intentionally go for a kill like Russetfur did. She was clinging to his throat while he was trying to get her off. He was slithering in his own blood and she had her jaws clamped shut. Lionblaze raked her flank with claws half-sheathed because he wanted her to let go. Firestar was slunking down to his belly and it took Lionblaze to grab her neck and yank her off, killing her, for her to let go. She had an obvious intention to kill. It wasn't in self-defense. This is from chapter 23 and 24 of Fading Echoes. (Can't give an exact book page because of how I downloaded it from my library to my kindle.)
"It's no different than how Russetfur tried to steal territory from ThunderClan before and was justifiably beaten for it, Firestar literally went for her throat first thing upon arriving, and she luckily escaped from him before retreating."
When exactly was this? And why should ShadowClan give invading cats the benefit of the doubt? Oh hey, we're here to fight and steal your territory, but it's okay cause we won't kill any of you? ??? Sorry, but that's not how war works, and it's nonsensical to think otherwise, imo. Also, again, take into account that Russetfur was pretty much a deranged elder, she should have retired long ago, and obviously elders tend to not make the best choices because of their age, examples being cats like Tallstar, Bluestar, heck even Graypool, if you want to count cats besides leaders. Dustpelt is another good example, he was in no condition to be fighting and still chose too, along with how harshly he disowned his son, he eventually paid the price with his life. As did Russetfur, again, cats get killed in battle, both intentionally and accidentally. But warriors to be willing to face consequences when they go into said battles, you're not going to come out of one unscathed, and you'll either get away with lucky scratches, or the worst case scenario, death. Where as you morally disagree with Russetfur's act as an individual, it doesn't change that she was doing it in defense of her clan in general, and their territory. The scenario I'm talking about, I literally mentioned it earlier, lol. Not long after the Berrykit incident, Russet, Oak, Cedar, and Rowan have a patrol that invaded ThunderClan territory and claimed it as their own. They challenged Bramble's patrol, putting TC on the defensive, and outnumbered them until reinforcements arrived. Firestar was one of those cats, and literally, right out the gate, the first thing he does is attack Russetfur, and go for her throat. If you don't believe me, feel free to read the passage yourself. It's rather ironic. Also, Russetfur wasn't the only one, Thornclaw also got a nasty slash on his throat during the fight, and was suggested by Sandstorm to see Leafpool in case of an infection.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Dec 25, 2018 14:50:07 GMT -5
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Post by vectoring34 on Dec 25, 2018 15:09:49 GMT -5
A killing bite and a non-killing bite are very different things. A killing bite requires going full force, whereas "holding" bite can be done without killing someone. Notice that Russetfur could still cry out and make orders for retreat. If Firestar was going full force, she'd be choking and wouldn't be able to make a sound due to the way cats kill by closing off the windpipe/damaging the jugular. If Firestar wanted to kill her, she'd be doing nothing but gurgling until he decides to let her go or she breaks free because there's no air coming through her throat.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Dec 25, 2018 15:18:38 GMT -5
A killing bite and a non-killing bite are very different things. A killing bite requires going full force, whereas "holding" bite can be done without killing someone. Notice that Russetfur could still cry out and make orders for retreat. If Firestar was going full force, she'd be choking and wouldn't be able to make a sound due to the way cats kill by closing off the windpipe/damaging the jugular. If Firestar wanted to kill her, she'd be doing nothing but gurgling until he decides to let her go or she breaks free because there's no air coming through her throat. But yet you think it's conventional for the first thing Firestar to do is go for Russetfur's throat? But it's inexcusable when Russetfur is defending her clan's territory and essentially doing the same? Just because the results of Russetfur being attacked by Firestar didn't end in her demise, doesn't change the nature of which Firestar attacked her. You can't exactly call it a killing bit unless you...ya know, kill the other cat. In this case, Firestar didn't or at least didn't manage to, for all Russetfur knew, he could have, and might have. Who knows for sure. Also, Russetfur doesn't yowl anything until she's back on her feet, didn't have anything to do with her escaping Firestar's jaws. If it had said she did it while he still had his jaws on her throat, then yes, but that's not the case. But as I said before, I don't think Firestar, of all cats, would be as bloodthirsty as ShadowClan. Cause, again, this is ShadowClan we're talking about.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Dec 25, 2018 15:22:22 GMT -5
I personally, and truly do find this entire argument interesting, and amusing to a degree, but honestly, it feels like we're going in circles. Especially when I already said that morals, are pretty much opinions, and everyone is free to their own opinions. You can think Russetfur was morally wrong for her actions but doesn't change, by ShadowClan standards, and her own, she was ethically in the right. Also...it's not exactly the first time the cats have done things that some readers find morally wrong, like separating Violetshine and Twigbranch as kits. Another morally conflicting situation. Also, I personally don't really feel strongly about Russetfur anyways, she's okay, and for the most part, I just think some arguments against her are pretty nonsensical is all.
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Post by vectoring34 on Dec 25, 2018 15:57:36 GMT -5
A killing bite and a non-killing bite are very different things. A killing bite requires going full force, whereas "holding" bite can be done without killing someone. Notice that Russetfur could still cry out and make orders for retreat. If Firestar was going full force, she'd be choking and wouldn't be able to make a sound due to the way cats kill by closing off the windpipe/damaging the jugular. If Firestar wanted to kill her, she'd be doing nothing but gurgling until he decides to let her go or she breaks free because there's no air coming through her throat. But yet you think it's conventional for the first thing Firestar to do is go for Russetfur's throat? But it's inexcusable when Russetfur is defending her clan's territory and essentially doing the same? Just because the results of Russetfur being attacked by Firestar didn't end in her demise, doesn't change the nature of which Firestar attacked her. You can't exactly call it a killing bit unless you...ya know, kill the other cat. In this case, Firestar didn't or at least didn't manage to, for all Russetfur knew, he could have, and might have. Who knows for sure. Also, Russetfur doesn't yowl anything until she's back on her feet, didn't have anything to do with her escaping Firestar's jaws. If it had said she did it while he still had his jaws on her throat, then yes, but that's not the case. But as I said before, I don't think Firestar, of all cats, would be as bloodthirsty as ShadowClan. Cause, again, this is ShadowClan we're talking about. According to you, shooting someone and pointing a gun at them are clearly the same thing. Firestar pinning Russetfur by the neck is not the same as biting down with intent to kill. It’s called a killing bite because they bite full force to strangle and rip open the jugular. Russetfur knows he won’t go for a killing bite because most cats follow the code and just snap down and then let go. It’s a matter of mutual agreement, a societal contract. It’s the same reason that people accept their opponents in boxing matches to not murder them, because there are rules in place that are followed.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2018 16:03:29 GMT -5
I'd like to point out the battle when Russetfur killed Firestar, wasn't under normal conditions. The Battle as a whole was more brutal then normal and it was said Dark Forest had influenced the fights fighting. So normally, Russetfur may of not gone so far if it wasn't literal demons influencing everyone.
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Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Dec 25, 2018 16:28:25 GMT -5
I personally, and truly do find this entire argument interesting, and amusing to a degree, but honestly, it feels like we're going in circles. Especially when I already said that morals, are pretty much opinions, and everyone is free to their own opinions. You can think Russetfur was morally wrong for her actions but doesn't change, by ShadowClan standards, and her own, she was ethically in the right. Also...it's not exactly the first time the cats have done things that some readers find morally wrong, like separating Violetshine and Twigbranch as kits. Another morally conflicting situation. Also, I personally don't really feel strongly about Russetfur anyways, she's okay, and for the most part, I just think some arguments against her are pretty nonsensical is all. But my point is it is straight up against the code. Firestar was never trying to kill her, she was purposely trying to kill him. We can see this from two different POVs. She was wrong. Why? She broke the code by intentionally killing Firestar. She refused to let go and it was obvious Firestar was dying. She was wrong and she's a killer. I honestly think people are letting this slide because we as readers know that Firestar had more more life left after this battle when in the narrative, it was unknown save for few cats. A similar situation is Hawkheart vs. Moonflower. He killed her against the code despite ThunderClan raiding WindClan. Why? He continued to beat her around when she was beaten. Firestar was obviously beaten and she held on to the point he was sinking to his belly in his own blood. She did not need to kill him to win, she is still against the code.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2018 16:28:29 GMT -5
But yet you think it's conventional for the first thing Firestar to do is go for Russetfur's throat? But it's inexcusable when Russetfur is defending her clan's territory and essentially doing the same? Just because the results of Russetfur being attacked by Firestar didn't end in her demise, doesn't change the nature of which Firestar attacked her. You can't exactly call it a killing bit unless you...ya know, kill the other cat. In this case, Firestar didn't or at least didn't manage to, for all Russetfur knew, he could have, and might have. Who knows for sure. Also, Russetfur doesn't yowl anything until she's back on her feet, didn't have anything to do with her escaping Firestar's jaws. If it had said she did it while he still had his jaws on her throat, then yes, but that's not the case. But as I said before, I don't think Firestar, of all cats, would be as bloodthirsty as ShadowClan. Cause, again, this is ShadowClan we're talking about. According to you, shooting someone and pointing a gun at them are clearly the same thing. Firestar pinning Russetfur by the neck is not the same as biting down with intent to kill. It’s called a killing bite because they bite full force to strangle and rip open the jugular. Russetfur knows he won’t go for a killing bite because most cats follow the code and just snap down and then let go. It’s a matter of mutual agreement, a societal contract. It’s the same reason that people accept their opponents in boxing matches to not murder them, because there are rules in place that are followed. But this is the life/death situation of a battle with only seconds decide what you're going to do. The throat is the most vulnerable part of the body in the Warrior Cats series. There's a reason the killing bite is aimed at that area. Ashfur was able to killed by a bite to the throat and nothing else. When Blackstar killed Redwillow in a single blow, it was the throat he slashed. During the four Clan battle in Eclipse, Lionpaw had to purposefully stop himself almost biting into an unnamed Windclan warrior's throat. A single attack towards a cat's throat is enough to kill them, even if that's not the intention of the attacker. To Russetfur, the invading Thunderclan leader just a bit down on the same area used for killing bites. Russetfur doesn't really know Firestar , only seeing him once at a month and she's still unlikely to talk to him personally. There's not a way for Russetfur to know Firestar's accurate intentions. It's also a battle, only seconds to make decisions and very stressful. She doesn't have time to think through it logically and assume Firestar had best intentions, especially when he's killed before in Scourge. It's the real-life equivalent in a Gang-war/Fighting Soldiers, someone grabbing you round the neck with their hands but you managed to get away in time before knowing what you're attacker intentions are and your attacker goes to attack more of your friends - Whether it was to strangle you or just pin you down. Sure there may be "rules", but that doesn't change the fact those rules still allow for some killing in certain cases. Also, Boxing Matches are not a good comparison to the Clan battles. Boxing is just a sport for enjoyment. It's not the aim of the Boxing match to even draw any blood. However in Clan battles, it's a very real sistuation, cats are actually dying and it's expected for all fighter to at least be bleeding.
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Russetfur
Dec 25, 2018 16:32:21 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by vectoring34 on Dec 25, 2018 16:32:21 GMT -5
According to you, shooting someone and pointing a gun at them are clearly the same thing. Firestar pinning Russetfur by the neck is not the same as biting down with intent to kill. It’s called a killing bite because they bite full force to strangle and rip open the jugular. Russetfur knows he won’t go for a killing bite because most cats follow the code and just snap down and then let go. It’s a matter of mutual agreement, a societal contract. It’s the same reason that people accept their opponents in boxing matches to not murder them, because there are rules in place that are followed. But this is the life/death situation of a battle with only seconds decide what you're going to do. The throat is the most vulnerable part of the body in the Warrior Cats series. There's a reason the killing bite is aimed at that area. Ashfur was able to killed by a bite to the throat and nothing else. When Blackstar killed Redwillow in a single blow, it was the throat he slashed. During the four Clan battle in Eclipse, Lionpaw had to purposefully stop himself almost biting into an unnamed Windclan warrior's throat. A single attack towards a cat's throat is enough to kill them, even if that's not the intention of the attacker. To Russetfur, the invading Thunderclan leader just a bit down on the same area used for killing bites. Russetfur doesn't really know Firestar , only seeing him once at a month and she's still unlikely to talk to him personally. There's not a way for Russetfur to know Firestar's accurate intentions. It's also a battle, only seconds to make decisions and very stressful. She doesn't have time to think through it logically and assume Firestar had best intentions, especially when he's killed before in Scourge. It's the real-life equivalent in a Gang-war/Fighting Soldiers, someone grabbing you round the neck with their hands but you managed to get away in time before knowing what you're attacker intentions are - Whether it was to strangle you or just pin you down. Sure there may be "rules", but that doesn't change the fact those rules still allow for some killing in certain cases. Also, Boxing Matches are not a good comparison to the Clan battles. Boxing is just a sport for enjoyment. It's not the aim of the Boxing match to even draw any blood. However in Clan battles, it's a very real sistuation, cats are actually dying and it's expected for all fighter to at least be bleeding. Use dueling then as an example, where if someone shot someone after they deloped it was shameful and a crime depending on jurisdiction. Point is that most cats delope. A cat who’s not deloping is breaking the rules
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2018 16:42:32 GMT -5
But this is the life/death situation of a battle with only seconds decide what you're going to do. The throat is the most vulnerable part of the body in the Warrior Cats series. There's a reason the killing bite is aimed at that area. Ashfur was able to killed by a bite to the throat and nothing else. When Blackstar killed Redwillow in a single blow, it was the throat he slashed. During the four Clan battle in Eclipse, Lionpaw had to purposefully stop himself almost biting into an unnamed Windclan warrior's throat. A single attack towards a cat's throat is enough to kill them, even if that's not the intention of the attacker. To Russetfur, the invading Thunderclan leader just a bit down on the same area used for killing bites. Russetfur doesn't really know Firestar , only seeing him once at a month and she's still unlikely to talk to him personally. There's not a way for Russetfur to know Firestar's accurate intentions. It's also a battle, only seconds to make decisions and very stressful. She doesn't have time to think through it logically and assume Firestar had best intentions, especially when he's killed before in Scourge. It's the real-life equivalent in a Gang-war/Fighting Soldiers, someone grabbing you round the neck with their hands but you managed to get away in time before knowing what you're attacker intentions are - Whether it was to strangle you or just pin you down. Sure there may be "rules", but that doesn't change the fact those rules still allow for some killing in certain cases. Also, Boxing Matches are not a good comparison to the Clan battles. Boxing is just a sport for enjoyment. It's not the aim of the Boxing match to even draw any blood. However in Clan battles, it's a very real sistuation, cats are actually dying and it's expected for all fighter to at least be bleeding. Use dueling then as an example, where if someone shot someone after they deloped it was shameful and a crime depending on jurisdiction. Point is that most cats delope. A cat who’s not deloping is breaking the rules After Russetfur had managed to escape Firestar's first attack to the neck - He had not ordered his warriors to retreat. Russetfur's territory was still being invaded and clanmates being attacked. By the time Russetfur and Firestar clashed a second time, the battle was still happening so Firestar was fair game.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2018 16:55:54 GMT -5
Wait- This isn't from the Fading Echoes, the Battle we're talking about is the one in Fading Echoes. I checked. First, Cedarheart is only listed in the allegiances for that book. Also, Firestar is present from the start of the battle, he doesn't arrive later in the battle with backup/2nd patrol.
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Russetfur
Dec 25, 2018 17:08:43 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by -` gumi ´- .✫ 🐾 on Dec 25, 2018 17:08:43 GMT -5
Wait- This isn't from the Fading Echoes, the Battle we're talking about is the one in Fading Echoes. I checked. First, Cedarheart is only listed in the allegiances for that book. Also, Firestar is present from the start of the battle, he doesn't arrive later in the battle with backup/2nd patrol. There’s two different battles being discussed, I believe.
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Post by -` gumi ´- .✫ 🐾 on Dec 25, 2018 17:14:17 GMT -5
as rain said- russetfur was in fault. She was the cause of her own death. It’s in the warrior code- don’t kill a warrior unless out of defense. While yes, she was defending her territory, however I don’t think she was defending herself from Firestar, as he was pretty useless in the position he was in. She straight up killed him to kill. Lionblaze didn’t MEAN to kill her- it was by pure accident. He was defending his leader.
Now- russetfur is also fricking garbage because clan cats are supposed to help kittens, not let them get injured. It doesn’t matter if berrykit/nose was a kittypet/loner or not, she was hypocritical to say “I don’t associate with kittypets” or whatever because she, if I remember correctly, wasn’t clan born herself.
She’s garbage- she broke the code twice.
I don’t want to hear opinions because it’s a fact that she is a terrible warrior for breaking the code twice- especially given what codes she broke.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Dec 26, 2018 20:31:44 GMT -5
Well, as I've already said, you're free to your own opinions. You guys act as if other cats haven't broken the code on several occasions. There's literally an entire page dedicated to just that on the wikia, lol. Not every character will be rainbows and sunshine, is that really hard to believe...?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2018 20:50:19 GMT -5
Russetfur is disrespectful and absolute garbage. She's also a murderer in a way, for making Firestar lose two lives. She disrespected Cinderpelt's honor just shortly after her death, tried to steal territory and watched a kit in pain. The only positive traits of her I can think of is when she sympathized with Sasha and her kits. Other than that, she's garbage. She's horrible in Sunset.
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Post by Brindlefern on Dec 26, 2018 21:17:48 GMT -5
Russetfur is disrespectful and absolute garbage. She's also a murderer in a way, for making Firestar lose two lives. She disrespected Cinderpelt's honor just shortly after her death, tried to steal territory and watched a kit in pain. The only positive traits of her I can think of is when she sympathized with Sasha and her kits. Other than that, she's garbage. She's horrible in Sunset.Two lives? Wat, Since when? It was one she took.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Dec 27, 2018 8:04:51 GMT -5
Russetfur is disrespectful and absolute garbage. She's also a murderer in a way, for making Firestar lose two lives. She disrespected Cinderpelt's honor just shortly after her death, tried to steal territory and watched a kit in pain. The only positive traits of her I can think of is when she sympathized with Sasha and her kits. Other than that, she's garbage. She's horrible in Sunset.Two lives? Wat, Since when? It was one she took. Two hunh...anyone have a confirmation on that? lol.
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Post by Moonblazer on Dec 27, 2018 8:09:02 GMT -5
Two lives? Wat, Since when? It was one she took. Two hunh...anyone have a confirmation on that? lol. clearly she snatched my life too, sister snatched my life like a weave.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Dec 27, 2018 8:39:57 GMT -5
Two hunh...anyone have a confirmation on that? lol. clearly she snatched my life too, sister snatched my life like a weave. Dang you right, I'm so sorry she did that to you sweetie
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Post by Moonblazer on Dec 27, 2018 8:43:40 GMT -5
clearly she snatched my life too, sister snatched my life like a weave. Dang you right, I'm so sorry she did that to you sweetie It’s okay Littlecloud snatched it harder than she ever could and we all know deep down he’s the sassiest cat in the clans. Move over Jayfeather, a true king approaches.
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Post by vectoring34 on Dec 27, 2018 10:32:12 GMT -5
I think the two lives stuff has to do with the inconsistent count on Firestar's lives, so this ends up with one life needing to take up the slack and become two.
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Post by Owlmoon on Dec 28, 2018 13:35:25 GMT -5
Russetfur always had a certain charisma towards her - I really would've liked a novella on her. She was a really interesting character for me.
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