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Post by Rainfire on Dec 19, 2018 14:23:08 GMT -5
What's your opinion on Russetfur?
I always kinda liked her and thought it might interesting to see her become leader, but I also can't forget how she and her patrol just stood by and did nothing while Berrykit was caught in that foxtrap. That was pretty crappy.
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Post by Brindlefern on Dec 19, 2018 15:44:44 GMT -5
HaaaAAATE her. Not as much as my hatred for Spottedleaf per say but... she's still up there close. One for standing there mocking Berrykit while he had his tail stuck in a foxtrap, thus breaking the code for neglecting kits in need despite their origins, yet acting all smug being all "Shadowclan follows the code" Bitch no you weren't at that moment!
Secondly for killing Firestar and taking his 8th life at the end of Fading Echoes. UGH. I hated her before, but that was what turned that hate to despise once she did that. There's no justification considering the code also says you shouldn't kill to win battles unless it's self-defense or the cat was outside the code to begin with.
She killed him in a territory scuffle between clans. A fricking TERRITORY SCUFFLE. The whole Sunningrocks deal proves that these cats can butt heads over territory withough KILLING one another as is so SCREW that noise she's scum.
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Post by Fireleap on Dec 19, 2018 17:12:13 GMT -5
I like her a lot. I'd prefer a Russetstar over Rowanstar.
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Post by Moonblazer on Dec 19, 2018 17:59:51 GMT -5
Rowanstar was a better deputy, that’s the tea fam.
I liked Russetfur but yeah. Watching Berrykit cry and writhe in a fox trap was a garbage move.
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Post by vectoring34 on Dec 19, 2018 18:26:06 GMT -5
She's yet another scumbag from Shadowclan, what else is new? The stuff with Berrykit is vile enough on its own but it's made worse by the fact that she used to not be a clan cat either. In fact, Berrykit was born raised inside of a clan so if anything he has more claim to clan life than "Red". Heck, if she's going to be so elitist about the code, why doesn't she look in Shadowclan first? Even outside of herself, there's Blackstar, Boulder, Nightwhisper, Darkstripe, Stumpytail, Tigerstar, Tangleburr, and Clawface(if you believe Tigerclaw's Fury) at the very least, possibly more depending on how many cats Brokenstar took into exile that later returned. She's a hypocrite.
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Post by Rainfire on Dec 19, 2018 19:30:02 GMT -5
vectoring34 ratman Berrykit and his littermates were born at the Horseplace; Daisy brought them to ThunderClan when they were very young(not that it excuses Russetfur's actions).
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Post by Haze on Dec 19, 2018 19:35:48 GMT -5
Berrykit was not born in thunderclan camp Daisy didn't go there pregnant, and though Russetfur was morally wrong in not helping, by the Warrior code she was right in not crossing the border.
About Russetfur herself, I am neutral, she is strong and independent, got in Shadowclan as a loner and managed to get the deputy position, I can respect that.
And she was the cat that helped Sasha in leafbare too.
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Post by vectoring34 on Dec 19, 2018 20:12:17 GMT -5
Berrykit was not born in thunderclan camp Daisy didn't go there pregnant, and though Russetfur was morally wrong in not helping, by the Warrior code she was right in not crossing the border. About Russetfur herself, I am neutral, she is strong and independent, got in Shadowclan as a loner and managed to get the deputy position, I can respect that. And she was the cat that helped Sasha in leafbare too. The code does not say to not ever cross borders. What the code disallows is trespassing, which even in real life is not the same thing. Entering under flag of truce is not at all trespassing and has been done many times in the series as something that is almost par for course and not shocking whatsoever. You can look at Sunstar marching into the Riverclan camp or warriors being escorted to the clan leader as examples of this. What the code does in fact say, on the other hand, is to not neglect kits in pain or in danger, which fits Berrykit nicely. As far as her being named deputy, consider that the one who named her was Blackstar who hadn't even washed off Stonefur's blood at that point. If anything that's an indictment to be named deputy mere days after her leader dishonorably murdered another deputy. It's not a point of honor to be touched by Blackstar at that point.
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Post by なんで私 on Dec 19, 2018 20:23:03 GMT -5
berrykit wasnt born in tc? No he was a rouge before coming to ThunderClan with Daisy, Mousewhisker, and Hazeltail.
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Post by *Faith* on Dec 19, 2018 21:30:01 GMT -5
I think she's a hypocrite for not helping Berrykit when he was caught in the foxtrap just because he's not Clanborn, when she herself isn't Clanborn.
She was cool in the Tigerstar and Sasha manga trilogy though.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2018 21:45:58 GMT -5
I like her, she's tough and cool and I think she would have made a better leader than Rowanstar if it weren't for her age.
Unfortunately she got the treatment that almost all ShadowClan cats get, which is to write them as despicable and unlikable as possible in order to make it seem like ThunderClan is the "good" Clan and ShadowClan is the "bad" one. This happened in TPB, TNP, POT, skipped over OOTS for once, and then brought back again in AVOS. It's annoying that all ShadowClan cats are nasty by default, like its "in their genes" or whatever, no matter how many old cats die and new cats are born. FFS they even let Littlecloud die in his own filth when it was shown many times that he was very well respected and liked in his own clan.
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Post by vectoring34 on Dec 19, 2018 22:26:46 GMT -5
I like her, she's tough and cool and I think she would have made a better leader than Rowanstar if it weren't for her age. Unfortunately she got the treatment that almost all ShadowClan cats get, which is to write them as despicable and unlikable as possible in order to make it seem like ThunderClan is the "good" Clan and ShadowClan is the "bad" one. This happened in TPB, TNP, POT, skipped over OOTS for once, and then brought back again in AVOS. It's annoying that all ShadowClan cats are nasty by default, like its "in their genes" or whatever, no matter how many old cats die and new cats are born. FFS they even let Littlecloud die in his own filth when it was shown many times that he was very well respected and liked in his own clan. Is it really correct to say that Shadowclan being written that way is wrong when they've always been written that way? Sometimes there's no need to add complexity, them just being the "bad" clan is just flat out true. It's not a matter of it being in their genes so much as it is the fact that Shadowclan cats are born into a broken society and aren't taught any better. Those few who do try to make things better like Rowanstar only end up being ignored because their society has become so pitiful that they idolize the days when they could plunder and pillage other clans at will. This is in fact realistic and is the main reason why a lot of conflicts seem perpetual. Leaders come and go but their society does not change, never has to face any real reforms. Cedarstar and Raggedstar started that awful trend and Blackstar put the nail in the coffin by demonstrating that you can do any number of horrible things and end up successful. I don't know, this kind of feels like to me saying "Darn, it's unfair that Darktail got the treatment that all cult leaders get, being despicable and unlikable". It's all well and good to complain about the structuring of the story, but the fact is that in-story, they're still bad people. This isn't some OOC moment or anything like that, it's a consistent thing.
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Post by ivythorn on Dec 20, 2018 1:05:52 GMT -5
I always liked this problamatic lass.
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Post by halogen on Dec 20, 2018 1:07:20 GMT -5
I don't know, this kind of feels like to me saying "Darn, it's unfair that Darktail got the treatment that all cult leaders get, being despicable and unlikable". It's all well and good to complain about the structuring of the story, but the fact is that in-story, they're still bad people. This isn't some OOC moment or anything like that, it's a consistent thing. I think that Anubis was complaining about story structure here, though. I suppose what you are both getting at is that when writing fictional societies, you have to walk a fine line between portraying societal inertia and resistance to reforms that often makes messed-up aspects of them hard to change and making it seem like you as the author are intervening to make sure one side is always the "evil one" and one side is always the "good one". It's tricky. On the one hand, real life nations/etc. that have a history of tyrannical leaders and a population who at least partially supported them, valuing conquest and thinking more peaceful policies are weak, having leaders who obtain power through questionable means and so show everyone else that that's ok to do, etc., all of the problems ShadowClan has, can't get out of that trap easily. Real life history is filled with a lot of backtracking, failed reform, sometimes small and bittersweet victories, etc. On the other hand, a lot of fictional cultures seem to be way more pigeonholed than any real life culture is or was, and seem to always be the villain of every possible conflict in every possible era, even though it's never that way in real life. ShadowClan definitely does have more nuance than some other fictional cultures/countries/etc. in that respect, but I still feel there are a lot of times and places where the authors seem to be intervening to make ShadowClan more evil even if it doesn't make sense. Some examples are the ones brought up already from above, like making Russetfur and her patrol be bigoted against kitty pets despite ShadowClan also being established to accept so many rogues; this seems to just be added because it's an unwritten rule that antagonistic cats must be bigoted against kitty pets, and having this makes it seem like the Erins' goal is to make ShadowClan as evil as possible in very way with any cultural characteristics being secondary to evilness, rather than write a Clan which has a consistent culture which happens to be in a lot of ways very nasty, more so than the other Clans, but has some admirable aspects that naturally follow from how they are written. The example with Littlecloud brought up above is another good one - Anubis was specifically pointing out the inconsistency there - that ShadowClan was previously established as, though certainly having a strain of selfish/tough/fend for yourself mindset, still respecting their medicine cats like any other Clan, and that part seemed to be just added for "evil points" regardless of trying to write ShadowClan coherently. And then there are other times when the authors just have implausible events happen to them to make sure they can be evil, like in the first series where Nightstar turns out to have only one life, a plague conveniently kills the leader and deputy, and then Tigerclaw (an exile from another Clan) conveniently gets chosen by the medicine cat to be leader. The whole thing reads as an incredibly implausible chain of events not following from ShadowClan's own flaws but engineered by the author to make sure the main villain could be in a position of power in ShadowClan doing evil things and ensuring ShadowClan was the main antagonist Clan. And some other aspects seem contrived as well, like the whole Blackstar and Sol incident which, while in character for Blackstar himself, it seems very unlikely that a Clan that valued faith in StarClan like any other would just accept Sol, conveniently except for the one cat who was born in ThunderClan. And similarly with the apprentices not believing in StarClan in AVOS. None of this belief stuff has to do with the problems ShadowClan has in general, it's just a random thing added to make them more evil. Though honestly ThunderClan annoys me more. While ShadowClan's actions and plot lines sometimes feel contrived, there are other times when their problems and inability to change seem to follow naturally from how their society is. ThunderClan after the first arc is just a poorly written protagonist Clan because instead of following a Clan facing real danger from within and without, struggling with potential changes in society, we get to follow the moralizing outsider, where the cats in power always do the right thing by a modern readers sensibility, only get into battles because the other Clans are being jerks and always win them with no danger because they also get to be ridiculously better fighters than all the other Clans (honestly the whole warriors set up and Clan rivalries would work way better if we didn't have the protagonist Clan being established as so much better at fighting that they just win all the inter-Clan battles), and the only cats that have objectionable views are a few random cats with no power, who are also usually portrayed as grumpy jerks in general because in Warriors, everyone who has bigoted, warmongering or generally unpleasant political views must also be personally mean and unfriendly, and vice versa.
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Post by vectoring34 on Dec 20, 2018 2:01:42 GMT -5
I don't know, this kind of feels like to me saying "Darn, it's unfair that Darktail got the treatment that all cult leaders get, being despicable and unlikable". It's all well and good to complain about the structuring of the story, but the fact is that in-story, they're still bad people. This isn't some OOC moment or anything like that, it's a consistent thing. I think that Anubis was complaining about story structure here, though. I suppose what you are both getting at is that when writing fictional societies, you have to walk a fine line between portraying societal inertia and resistance to reforms that often makes messed-up aspects of them hard to change and making it seem like you as the author are intervening to make sure one side is always the "evil one" and one side is always the "good one". It's tricky. On the one hand, real life nations/etc. that have a history of tyrannical leaders and a population who at least partially supported them, valuing conquest and thinking more peaceful policies are weak, having leaders who obtain power through questionable means and so show everyone else that that's ok to do, etc., all of the problems ShadowClan has, can't get out of that trap easily. Real life history is filled with a lot of backtracking, failed reform, sometimes small and bittersweet victories, etc. On the other hand, a lot of fictional cultures seem to be way more pigeonholed than any real life culture is or was, and seem to always be the villain of every possible conflict in every possible era, even though it's never that way in real life. ShadowClan definitely does have more nuance than some other fictional cultures/countries/etc. in that respect, but I still feel there are a lot of times and places where the authors seem to be intervening to make ShadowClan more evil even if it doesn't make sense. Some examples are the ones brought up already from above, like making Russetfur and her patrol be bigoted against kitty pets despite ShadowClan also being established to accept so many rogues; this seems to just be added because it's an unwritten rule that antagonistic cats must be bigoted against kitty pets, and having this makes it seem like the Erins' goal is to make ShadowClan as evil as possible in very way with any cultural characteristics being secondary to evilness, rather than write a Clan which has a consistent culture which happens to be in a lot of ways very nasty, more so than the other Clans, but has some admirable aspects that naturally follow from how they are written. The example with Littlecloud brought up above is another good one - Anubis was specifically pointing out the inconsistency there - that ShadowClan was previously established as, though certainly having a strain of selfish/tough/fend for yourself mindset, still respecting their medicine cats like any other Clan, and that part seemed to be just added for "evil points" regardless of trying to write ShadowClan coherently. And then there are other times when the authors just have implausible events happen to them to make sure they can be evil, like in the first series where Nightstar turns out to have only one life, a plague conveniently kills the leader and deputy, and then Tigerclaw (an exile from another Clan) conveniently gets chosen by the medicine cat to be leader. The whole thing reads as an incredibly implausible chain of events not following from ShadowClan's own flaws but engineered by the author to make sure the main villain could be in a position of power in ShadowClan doing evil things and ensuring ShadowClan was the main antagonist Clan. And some other aspects seem contrived as well, like the whole Blackstar and Sol incident which, while in character for Blackstar himself, it seems very unlikely that a Clan that valued faith in StarClan like any other would just accept Sol, conveniently except for the one cat who was born in ThunderClan. And similarly with the apprentices not believing in StarClan in AVOS. None of this belief stuff has to do with the problems ShadowClan has in general, it's just a random thing added to make them more evil. Though honestly ThunderClan annoys me more. While ShadowClan's actions and plot lines sometimes feel contrived, there are other times when their problems and inability to change seem to follow naturally from how their society is. ThunderClan after the first arc is just a poorly written protagonist Clan because instead of following a Clan facing real danger from within and without, struggling with potential changes in society, we get to follow the moralizing outsider, where the cats in power always do the right thing by a modern readers sensibility, only get into battles because the other Clans are being jerks and always win them with no danger because they also get to be ridiculously better fighters than all the other Clans (honestly the whole warriors set up and Clan rivalries would work way better if we didn't have the protagonist Clan being established as so much better at fighting that they just win all the inter-Clan battles), and the only cats that have objectionable views are a few random cats with no power, who are also usually portrayed as grumpy jerks in general because in Warriors, everyone who has bigoted, warmongering or generally unpleasant political views must also be personally mean and unfriendly, and vice versa. Shadowclan accepting rogues left and right is not a sign that they would accept kittypets, it just makes them opportunistic. Again, this sort of thing is pretty realistic in which even really racist people slacken their standards if they are low on resources and will invent all kinds of excuses to work around it. As far as Shadowclan losing faith in Starclan, considering the fact that they willingly joined Tigerclan(an absolute butchery of the code if there ever was one), this is also not inconsistent. Especially when Sol came in at a time of the eclipse and all that jazz. Darktail didn't take all of Shadowclan at first, the reason for a lot of the defections had to do with the fact that the other clans floundered about in a laughably inept fashion and didn't want to commit blood and tears to driving him out despite grossly outnumbering him. Thunderclan's morality being so high has to do with the fact that their leader(effectively a dictator due to the way the clans work) is a nice guy. It would make no sense if Firestar's justice loving character suddenly twisted so he was more morally gray. You could have the clan just hate him and kick him out like Shadowclan does to Rowanstar, but even this doesn't really work because Firestar's a hero who saved all of them and that they personally saw leading the charge for them. No cat would ever have enough clout to challenge him, unlike Rowanstar who was green and untested. The only way to make Thunderclan immoral is to have Firestar die. Now, in that regard, I think it's a really cool idea if Thunderclan champs at the bit with Bramblestar because Bramblestar is legtimately a lame leader. He sold off kits to Shadowclan for absolutely no reason and failed to drive out Darktail despite overwhelming numerical and strategic superiority. However, that remains to be seen due to having had only one series for his leadership. The story problems of clans being pigeonholed is 100% due to the fact that leaders have so much influence.
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Post by ratman on Dec 20, 2018 3:50:50 GMT -5
vectoring34 ratman Berrykit and his littermates were born at the Horseplace; Daisy brought them to ThunderClan when they were very young(not that it excuses Russetfur's actions). i know. thats what i was saying
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Dec 20, 2018 6:51:05 GMT -5
Meh, I like her. *shrugs*
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Dec 20, 2018 6:58:39 GMT -5
Tbh I liked her up until she let Berrykit suffer in a trap. That is just downright despicable, idc how cool she was before. She completely ruined my like for her the moment she allowed that to happen.
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Post by halogen on Dec 20, 2018 11:16:01 GMT -5
I think that Anubis was complaining about story structure here, though. I suppose what you are both getting at is that when writing fictional societies, you have to walk a fine line between portraying societal inertia and resistance to reforms that often makes messed-up aspects of them hard to change and making it seem like you as the author are intervening to make sure one side is always the "evil one" and one side is always the "good one". It's tricky. On the one hand, real life nations/etc. that have a history of tyrannical leaders and a population who at least partially supported them, valuing conquest and thinking more peaceful policies are weak, having leaders who obtain power through questionable means and so show everyone else that that's ok to do, etc., all of the problems ShadowClan has, can't get out of that trap easily. Real life history is filled with a lot of backtracking, failed reform, sometimes small and bittersweet victories, etc. On the other hand, a lot of fictional cultures seem to be way more pigeonholed than any real life culture is or was, and seem to always be the villain of every possible conflict in every possible era, even though it's never that way in real life. ShadowClan definitely does have more nuance than some other fictional cultures/countries/etc. in that respect, but I still feel there are a lot of times and places where the authors seem to be intervening to make ShadowClan more evil even if it doesn't make sense. Some examples are the ones brought up already from above, like making Russetfur and her patrol be bigoted against kitty pets despite ShadowClan also being established to accept so many rogues; this seems to just be added because it's an unwritten rule that antagonistic cats must be bigoted against kitty pets, and having this makes it seem like the Erins' goal is to make ShadowClan as evil as possible in very way with any cultural characteristics being secondary to evilness, rather than write a Clan which has a consistent culture which happens to be in a lot of ways very nasty, more so than the other Clans, but has some admirable aspects that naturally follow from how they are written. The example with Littlecloud brought up above is another good one - Anubis was specifically pointing out the inconsistency there - that ShadowClan was previously established as, though certainly having a strain of selfish/tough/fend for yourself mindset, still respecting their medicine cats like any other Clan, and that part seemed to be just added for "evil points" regardless of trying to write ShadowClan coherently. And then there are other times when the authors just have implausible events happen to them to make sure they can be evil, like in the first series where Nightstar turns out to have only one life, a plague conveniently kills the leader and deputy, and then Tigerclaw (an exile from another Clan) conveniently gets chosen by the medicine cat to be leader. The whole thing reads as an incredibly implausible chain of events not following from ShadowClan's own flaws but engineered by the author to make sure the main villain could be in a position of power in ShadowClan doing evil things and ensuring ShadowClan was the main antagonist Clan. And some other aspects seem contrived as well, like the whole Blackstar and Sol incident which, while in character for Blackstar himself, it seems very unlikely that a Clan that valued faith in StarClan like any other would just accept Sol, conveniently except for the one cat who was born in ThunderClan. And similarly with the apprentices not believing in StarClan in AVOS. None of this belief stuff has to do with the problems ShadowClan has in general, it's just a random thing added to make them more evil. Though honestly ThunderClan annoys me more. While ShadowClan's actions and plot lines sometimes feel contrived, there are other times when their problems and inability to change seem to follow naturally from how their society is. ThunderClan after the first arc is just a poorly written protagonist Clan because instead of following a Clan facing real danger from within and without, struggling with potential changes in society, we get to follow the moralizing outsider, where the cats in power always do the right thing by a modern readers sensibility, only get into battles because the other Clans are being jerks and always win them with no danger because they also get to be ridiculously better fighters than all the other Clans (honestly the whole warriors set up and Clan rivalries would work way better if we didn't have the protagonist Clan being established as so much better at fighting that they just win all the inter-Clan battles), and the only cats that have objectionable views are a few random cats with no power, who are also usually portrayed as grumpy jerks in general because in Warriors, everyone who has bigoted, warmongering or generally unpleasant political views must also be personally mean and unfriendly, and vice versa. Shadowclan accepting rogues left and right is not a sign that they would accept kittypets, it just makes them opportunistic. Again, this sort of thing is pretty realistic in which even really racist people slacken their standards if they are low on resources and will invent all kinds of excuses to work around it. As far as Shadowclan losing faith in Starclan, considering the fact that they willingly joined Tigerclan(an absolute butchery of the code if there ever was one), this is also not inconsistent. Especially when Sol came in at a time of the eclipse and all that jazz. Darktail didn't take all of Shadowclan at first, the reason for a lot of the defections had to do with the fact that the other clans floundered about in a laughably inept fashion and didn't want to commit blood and tears to driving him out despite grossly outnumbering him. Thunderclan's morality being so high has to do with the fact that their leader(effectively a dictator due to the way the clans work) is a nice guy. It would make no sense if Firestar's justice loving character suddenly twisted so he was more morally gray. You could have the clan just hate him and kick him out like Shadowclan does to Rowanstar, but even this doesn't really work because Firestar's a hero who saved all of them and that they personally saw leading the charge for them. No cat would ever have enough clout to challenge him, unlike Rowanstar who was green and untested. The only way to make Thunderclan immoral is to have Firestar die. Now, in that regard, I think it's a really cool idea if Thunderclan champs at the bit with Bramblestar because Bramblestar is legtimately a lame leader. He sold off kits to Shadowclan for absolutely no reason and failed to drive out Darktail despite overwhelming numerical and strategic superiority. However, that remains to be seen due to having had only one series for his leadership. The story problems of clans being pigeonholed is 100% due to the fact that leaders have so much influence. Fair point with the rogues, though I still think from a story perspective it's unnecessary to add racism against kitty pets to all of the other bad things about ShadowClan - it's not necessary to their plot lines and really just serves to make sure every unsavory character in the series is racist against kitty pets and that ShadowClan gets to be bad in every possible ways, not just the ways that actually have to do with the plot. And concerning TigerClan, ShadowClan joined TigerClan because Tigerstar was their leader supposedly chosen by StarClan when their old leader and deputy died, because he promised joining the Clans together to avoid fighting which seemed like a good idea to a desperate ShadowClan, and because they tended to admire the conquest and being strong that Tigerstar offered. Yes, StarClan is typically like "don't do that, there must be four Clans", but a lot of religious people in real life support political leaders or structures that are against what their religion would generally support, and it doesn't mean they are suddenly atheists or would take kindly to their religion being outlawed. And again, the StarClan lack of belief is completely unnecessary for ShadowClan's arc and their actual problems that make them stuck being so horrible, it's just another attempt to add more unnecessary evil to the mix, and again suggesting the authors aren't really trying to make a realistic portrait of a Clan that has a messed-up culture but are just trying to make them evil in every way possible and any realism is completely incidental. And yes, there was the eclipse incident but there is no reason for ShadowClan in particular to be completely convinced by the eclipse, and their ThunderClan-born member Tawnypelt in particular to be bothered by it and leave when no one else was. Yes, there was reason for Blackstar in particular to be convinced (his tendency to follow everyone charismatic combined with his crippling nostalgia for the old forest and feeling that every little setback meant that StarClan had abandoned them), but completely outlawing StarClan overnight, along with the mentor apprentice system (which ShadowClan had no reason to dislike or turn against) should have provoked some kind of rebellion. It's different then with TigerClan, where its purpose as Tigerstar described it was conquering and war that ShadowClan liked in the short term and uniting the Clans to have peace in the long term (which Shadowclan also wanted, being desperate after the plague), and it happened to go against tradition (and StarClan generally supports tradition). And the average ShadowClan cat wasn't having StarClan appearing in their dreams every day and telling them "TigerClan is bad", and yet still supporting TigerClan, barring the time right before he died (so we don't know how they would have reacted) when Tigerstar was saying that he was more powerful than StarClan, TigerClan was just going against tradition and implicitly against StarClan. That wouldn't cause them to accept Sol any more than ThunderClan having a leader who is more compassionate and accepting of strangers than the code wants would lead to them becoming atheist. And speaking of ThunderClan, I agree it makes sense that they act the way they do once Firestar is leader. But it doesn't make a great story to read about the rivalries and conflicts and pride and moral ambiguities of Clans through the eyes of a Clan that is always doing the right thing looking down moralistically on the other Clans that have to really struggle with their problems and selfishness in the way that the others do, especially since when they do get into a conflict (read: usually just randomly attacked) they always win every battle, so you don't even have the aspect of a Clan which is admirable morally because of their leader but still has to fight to make the world a better place. I would much rather read about Firestar in the first arc struggling against his Clan, or about ShadowClan cats like Rowanstar trying to be heroes in a Clan stuck in a mindset of admiring cruelty. It really shows in the Power of Three, where the story is supposed to show the darker side of the three's powers and how they can use them in the wrong way, but Jayfeather's power hunger and thinking he can manipulate the other Clans because his power makes them better, Hollyleaf's following the code even when it would recommend cruelty, and Lionblaze's thirst for battle and irrational anger towards his enemies in battle don't really matter because Firestar is just overruling them, having the real power and making sure they never do the wrong thing, so they weren't able to really do anything with the theme of power. Yes, it wouldn't make sense to change Firestar's character, but they could have certainly told later arcs from the perspective of another Clan or in a different time in the Clans' history (which would have been better because it would have avoided the tendency to make all important characters the children of other important characters while children of minor characters do nothing, completely destroying the moral of your blood not determining who you are, as well as avoiding the authors not being able to kill off any ThunderClan cats and putting all the newer generations on the sidelines n favor of NOSTALGIA).
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Easing back in
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Dec 20, 2018 12:26:55 GMT -5
Horrible and has no real respect for the code.
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Post by VIXENCLAW on Dec 20, 2018 12:29:02 GMT -5
I have always really loved her, but the whole thing with Berrykit was really trashy.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2018 16:25:35 GMT -5
Dislike her. She didn't even care that a kit was in pain. Also she tried to kill Firestar.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Dec 21, 2018 3:24:41 GMT -5
There's some things I don't understand....
Russetfur wasn't the only cat that watched Berrykit from the other side of the border...Oakfur and Cedarheart were there too. And they weren't wrong, they were abiding by the code, harsh, but it's true, even if you don't morally agree. It's not like they just up and left him completely, they at least waited until TC patrol showed up. Even if they did help Berrykit, they can't exactly do anything, they have no knowledge on fox traps, and just avoid it all together. And honestly TC should have kept a better eye on a kit, I like Berrynose, but I don't hate Russetfur for that scene, there's been much worse in the series.
And when she was fighting Firestar, not only was she old as heck, but she was defending her territory from invading ThunderClan cats...?? Honestly, that entire fight was pointless, and Firestar's fault for listening to an apprentice, jeez.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2018 6:24:45 GMT -5
Yeah I gotta say, she was entirely justified in trying to kill Firestar tbh. They were defending their territory from essentially being stolen for no real reason, Firestar had multiple lives to lose, and if the leader dies the battle is pretty much over. She was doing whatever it took to win the battle for her clan, which imo is what makes a good deputy.
can't say I agree with her letting Berrykit suffer tho. I wouldn't say she was "adbiding by the code", really. No matter what choice those ShadowClan cats made, they would have broken ONE code, whether it was "don't trespass on another clan's territory" or "don't let helpless kits suffer". In that situation, one code would have to be broken to follow another, and I don't agree with their choice, but that's not really enough to make me hate a character, personally. In a world like warriors, I like hard-but-not-evil characters. some of them do very nasty things but are still good cats at heart. I'm sure some people are rolling their eyes at me but I love morally gray characters like Russetfur. I mean, I even still like Juniperclaw after what he did...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2018 8:14:04 GMT -5
Fans hate her for her lack of compassion. Russetfur broke the code. She was watching a kit in pain and did nothing to help. It doesn't matter that TC wasn't the best for watching the kit. What matters is that Russetfur was watching the kit in pain for quite some time which is pretty gross imo. Her excuse is that he was a ThunderClan cat so she gave 0 shits about helping him
Also nothing excuses her killing Firestar. The warrior code says you don't need to kill to win. Fans kinda hate her for a reason..
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Post by Moonblazer on Dec 21, 2018 10:23:27 GMT -5
Watching a kit suffer like that is breaking the code. The life of a kit should be held in more importance than crossing a border. The issue here is that if they truly did not want to break the border code, they’d have marked the borders and left Berrykit there. No, they sat and watched the kit suffer and snided that simply because he was not born in Thunderclan, that they didn’t have to help him. They clearly wouldn’t have cared to cross the border or not had it been a kit like Birchkit instead.
It annoyed me greatly because she herself was a rouge once and was given the chance to prove herself. That kind of wound is crippling, losing a tail is excruciating I would imagine. I give props to Berrykit for taking it so dang well, and a part of me wonders if part of his personality stems from being watched and judged while he’s writhing in a fox trap as his tail is slowly cut from his body.
Cedarheart and Oakfur are trash for watching too. But the thread is about Russetfur. Don’t get me wrong, I think she’s incredibly interesting and I actually like her alot, but that seriously was an awful move on her part.
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Post by vectoring34 on Dec 21, 2018 11:00:08 GMT -5
There's some things I don't understand.... Russetfur wasn't the only cat that watched Berrykit from the other side of the border...Oakfur and Cedarheart were there too. And they weren't wrong, they were abiding by the code, harsh, but it's true, even if you don't morally agree. It's not like they just up and left him completely, they at least waited until TC patrol showed up. Even if they did help Berrykit, they can't exactly do anything, they have no knowledge on fox traps, and just avoid it all together. And honestly TC should have kept a better eye on a kit, I like Berrynose, but I don't hate Russetfur for that scene, there's been much worse in the series. And when she was fighting Firestar, not only was she old as heck, but she was defending her territory from invading ThunderClan cats...?? Honestly, that entire fight was pointless, and Firestar's fault for listening to an apprentice, jeez. Yes, Oakfur and Cedarheart are also pretty awful, what's your point? I'm not sure what kind of argument is made by bringing it up. All three of them were bad, it's not like anyone's lining up to defend those two. They were having a scuffle over border territory that had been in dispute for a while. This is not the same thing as an invasion deep into territory like Windclan tried in the Power of Three or Shadowclan in The New Prophecy. By your logic, Firestar would have been entirely justified in biting out her throat when she invaded after the badger attack, which was a far dirtier move.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2018 11:22:25 GMT -5
Wasn't Rowanclaw apart of the patrol who just watched Berrykit?
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#a3c5e6
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Warrior Fanatic
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Russetfur
Dec 21, 2018 11:26:02 GMT -5
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Dec 21, 2018 11:26:02 GMT -5
I have mixed feelings on her.
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