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Post by *Faith* on May 10, 2018 16:43:19 GMT -5
Someone on Kate's Blog:
Kate:
I'm with ya. This is why I'd never make a good author. I would never be able to kill anyone.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 10, 2018 16:46:15 GMT -5
There's a point where authors really need to separate their personal bias from a story and what's good for it.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2018 17:10:20 GMT -5
What a thinly veiled excuse.
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Post by Moonblazer on May 10, 2018 17:10:50 GMT -5
There's a point where authors really need to separate their personal bias from a story and what's good for it. But then again, they do one thing wrong and everyone jumps on them. They kill the wrong "older" cat and people get heated. I personally don't care if older cats live and if younger cats die, but that's just me. While I can understand the desire to kill off characters, the last thing I want is tasteless deaths or rushed slaughters for every older cat. |
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2018 17:21:35 GMT -5
Mass slaughter isn't in our nature, unless it's any other Clan besides ThunderClan. Then we won't spare killing half the Clan.
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Post by Brindlefern on May 10, 2018 17:25:10 GMT -5
I can't call it 'thinly veiled' because to be fair, I can kinda relate. I'm one of those creators that grow attached to the characters I make waaaay too easily as well. Yeah it's necessary to have a detachment from them in many cases like this, but Idk, I'm one of those people that find it hard to do so.
It's why I doubt I'd make a good writer if I was to tackle something in the Warriorsverse as well, because logically, it's the wild, characters are gonna die left and right, but if it were me I'd want to keep them alive for a good while longer as well, even if they're past their prime because I'm just too attached. I agree that the old characters in the canon series do need to die at this point, as even with healthcare I don't think feral cats would live for such long ages (Maybe a little longer than average but not ancient like Mistystar. Even my oldest elder in my fanclan is up to 10 years and that's only due to them having a reliable medicine cat taking care of the clans' elders, but I still plan for him to die because I have a few reasons why it'd be better for him to). There's been so many opportunities in where mass kills WOULD make sense tho, it it would've benefited the stories to take advantage of that. Floods, sickness (Contagious at that), and what forth. So idk, my opinion on it is mixed as a whole.
Kate just sounds like those folks that have a hard time letting characters they're really attached to die, and believe me I'd be rich if I had a dollar for any creator who's like that, including me. Main reason I want the older characters to die is to drop the numbers and have the oldies be with their dead friends and family at last. Comes a time where outliving your loved ones is more suffering than not.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 10, 2018 17:27:36 GMT -5
There's a point where authors really need to separate their personal bias from a story and what's good for it. But then again, they do one thing wrong and everyone jumps on them. They kill the wrong "older" cat and people get heated. I personally don't care if older cats live and if younger cats die, but that's just me. While I can understand the desire to kill off characters, the last thing I want is tasteless deaths or rushed slaughters for every older cat. The thing is though, this wouldn't be an issue if the Erins actually used the opportunities given to them to kill of cats. For example, the whole backlash they got over Briarlight's death. If Briarlight had died along with some other cats during an epidemic, I highly doubt they'd be getting so many accusations right now. But in the recent book, everyone gets sick and the only cat that dies is Briarlight, while also making her say things about not wanting to be a burden, etc. Honestly, it made me cringe, so I can see why people were so angry about it. They kept her alive, way too long overdue, just because she was popular, and probably didn't want to upset fans. But in the end, they made an even bigger problem because of how they wrote her off in her death scene anyways. Why do you think so many people aren't as angry about Sand and Dust's deaths? They were old, and they died honorable deaths. Dust died in a battle, Sand died while guiding her grandkit, imo they're not that bad. But the Erins had so many opportunities, there's really no excuse at this point. All the way starting with the Dark Forest battle > Flood > Starvation > Aggressive Kittypets/Loners > Badgers > Foxes > Sickness > Rockfall > another great battle that involved a tyrannical cat that was intent on driving clans to extinction and almost succeeded > even more sickness, but only Briarlight dies?? Also now there's a flipping forest fire...like... There are so many opportunities they didn't take to slowly get rid of certain cats that have overstayed their place in the clans, but they don't do that and now the new cats are suffering as characters. ThunderClan, at this point, just ages so unnaturally. It's like having a bunch of Mistystar clones, and they make up half your clan. The series its self is built on the premise of a new generation taking over after the next, Firestar, then Squirrelflight/Leafpool, then Holly/Jay/Lion, then Ivy/Dove, and now we're here at Alder and Spark. Look at the problem here? Alder barely gets any screen time anymore, Spark is just there to be a fan mouthpiece, while Violet and Twig take up most of the screen time, and there has been little to no development on the supposed prophecy this whole series. It's frustrating to the fans. It's not just something you can ignore, like Ashfur being in StarClan due to bias, but this is a slow burn no one wants, and the Erins can fix, but won't because of flimsy excuses. As someone who writes stories and draw art, I know people don't want the same old thing all the time with he same old characters, just as much as they don't want constantly killing off characters for shock value, you need to find the in between. And right now Warriors doesn't have that. The plot is suffering from this, the pov in AVoS is so all over the place, and we don't feel much for new characters that die at all, but only when they're related to more developed characters. Snowbush for example, died, but the reason people were upset at all was because he was Lilyheart's mate, who was developed greatly in BrS, and because she's related to Brakenfur. And that's about it. Or because people like his name...but still....The other issue is characters that only get developed cause they're romantic love interest, examples: Tree, Fernsong, Finleap, etc. There's a time when authors really need to reevaluate their works, and see if they're actually doing the right thing or not for their story and their fans. |
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 10, 2018 17:33:20 GMT -5
This is exactly why I'm not attached to my own characters. Sometimes you need to kill off your babies for the sake of the story and to make the audience cry.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2018 17:35:46 GMT -5
On one hand, I understand where Kate is coming from. There are characters in this series that I'm attached to that I don't want to see go. For example, Squirrelflight. I've been dreading every new release because I'm afraid they're going to kill her. However, sometimes it's nessesary for characters to die to better the story being told. If Squirrelflight dies, it's sad but it happened for a reason. She served her purpose, and now it's time for someone else to take her place. The older cats have already served their purpose in ThunderClan, so it's time to kill them off and give the new characters a chance to grow. The younger cats in ThunderClan are suffering because the Erins have neglected them in order to continue building already existing characters that have existed since the first book. And then they keep creating new characters that don't do anything. It's getting out of control. At some point, the older cats will have to die. We can't keep them around for an eternity just because we like them.
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Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on May 10, 2018 17:52:08 GMT -5
Honestly, it's a bit ironic how Briarlight had greencough so many times and so many survived with her being either one of the few or sole survivor. That was perfectly fine, but when the tables turn, nope nope can't have that. |
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Post by Moonblazer on May 10, 2018 18:00:25 GMT -5
But then again, they do one thing wrong and everyone jumps on them. They kill the wrong "older" cat and people get heated. I personally don't care if older cats live and if younger cats die, but that's just me. While I can understand the desire to kill off characters, the last thing I want is tasteless deaths or rushed slaughters for every older cat. The thing is though, this wouldn't be an issue if the Erins actually used the opportunities given to them to kill of cats. For example, the whole backlash they got over Briarlight's death. If Briarlight had died along with some other cats during an epidemic, I highly doubt they'd be getting so many accusations right now. But in the recent book, everyone gets sick and the only cat that dies is Briarlight, while also making her say things about not wanting to be a burden, etc. Honestly, it made me cringe, so I can see why people were so angry about it. They kept her alive, way too long overdue, just because she was popular, and probably didn't want to upset fans. But in the end, they made an even bigger problem because of how they wrote her off in her death scene anyways. Why do you think so many people aren't as angry about Sand and Dust's deaths? They were old, and they died honorable deaths. Dust died in a battle, Sand died while guiding her grandkit, imo they're not that bad. But the Erins had so many opportunities, there's really no excuse at this point. All the way starting with the Dark Forest battle > Flood > Starvation > Aggressive Kittypets/Loners > Badgers > Foxes > Sickness > Rockfall > another great battle that involved a tyrannical cat that was intent on driving clans to extinction and almost succeeded > even more sickness, but only Briarlight dies?? Also now there's a flipping forest fire...like... There are so many opportunities they didn't take to slowly get rid of certain cats that have overstayed their place in the clans, but they don't do that and now the new cats are suffering as characters. ThunderClan, at this point, just ages so unnaturally. It's like having a bunch of Mistystar clones, and they make up half your clan. The series its self is built on the premise of a new generation taking over after the next, Firestar, then Squirrelflight/Leafpool, then Holly/Jay/Lion, then Ivy/Dove, and now we're here at Alder and Spark. Look at the problem here? Alder barely gets any screen time anymore, Spark is just there to be a fan mouthpiece, while Violet and Twig take up most of the screen time, and there has been little to no development on the supposed prophecy this whole series. It's frustrating to the fans. It's not just something you can ignore, like Ashfur being in StarClan due to bias, but this is a slow burn no one wants, and the Erins can fix, but won't because of flimsy excuses. As someone who writes stories and draw art, I know people don't want the same old thing all the time with he same old characters, just as much as they don't want constantly killing off characters for shock value, you need to find the in between. And right now Warriors doesn't have that. The plot is suffering from this, the pov in AVoS is so all over the place, and we don't feel much for new characters that die at all, but only when they're related to more developed characters. Snowbush for example, died, but the reason people were upset at all was because he was Lilyheart's mate, who was developed greatly in BrS, and because she's related to Brakenfur. And that's about it. Or because people like his name...but still....The other issue is characters that only get developed cause they're romantic love interest, examples: Tree, Fernsong, Finleap, etc. There's a time when authors really need to reevaluate their works, and see if they're actually doing the right thing or not for their story and their fans. I guess in the end it all boils down to preference of fans. I understand where you're coming from, but I myself don't care if characters live or die in another person's series. I write and do art of my own as well, as many people have seen, and while I personally kill my characters when needed, it never bothered me if there was alot of living cats in Warriors. I'm not going to rage at the authors if older cats aren't killed and younger ones are. People can enjoy alot of characters, and people can enjoy killing off characters, but how good or bad a story is depends on the person reading it. I respect what you're saying, even if I don't 100 percent agree. |
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Post by Jaysnow on May 10, 2018 18:14:19 GMT -5
It's kind of frustrating yeah....I wish the editors would actually kill off at least two or three older cats..
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2018 18:21:33 GMT -5
While I do like the older characters and it's understandable to feel sad to see them go, I actually do wish they'd either pass on or retire to the elders den.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2018 18:54:19 GMT -5
For me it's not that the older cats aren't dying it's that the younger cats aren't developing. And there is an easy solution to this other than killing a bunch of older cats- send the older cats to the elder's den- and make them proper elders, not the useless ones we now have.
Regarding retiring the oldest warriors, the first good it does is give younger cats in charge of, well, everything. Instead of Cloudtail, Brackenfur, and Mousewhisker leading the patrols, it's Rosepetal, Bumblestripe, and Lilytail. Simply being put in charge of more puts them in the spotlight more, and even if the authors aren't attached to them yet it'll give them more opportunity to. Why did Kate grow to like Tigerheart more after hating him? She spent months writing an entire SE about him. The authors aren't going to get attached to young characters if all the old characters are still "running the show"- aka patrols, discussions with the leader and deputy, and helping making the clans run.
BUT another thing- they've got to get the elder's den back in shape. What happened to elders being heavily involved in clan matters and even being respected more than their leader and deputy? No wonder the authors don't want to retire them, the elders den is just seen as a place to dump old cats where they rot for the rest of their lives. It doesn't have to be that way- bring back the days where the elders den was full of about a half a dozen or more cats- some younger than they should be and some older- but all very active in the clan community and a core part of the clan. Older characters who the authors are still attached to can still be very active in the clan, while still giving the younger cats space to shine. There's a massive decision to make? Bring over the elders and have them help Bramblestar and Squirrelflight with wisdom and advice. A prophecy cat can't decide what to do? Go to the elders. I'm sure the authors would love to recall flashbacks of the character's past days to help a younger cat in a time of need.
It'd be better for everyone- the original characters are still around and still have an impact in clan life and the younger cats get more development and are generally written better.
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Post by Sundance on May 10, 2018 20:31:37 GMT -5
At the end of the day, there's no reason NOT to kill off cats because they can live on peacefully in StarClan (which, in turn, allows them to make reappearances) rather than poof from existence, never to be seen again. :-P
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Post by Ligerfrost on May 10, 2018 20:35:57 GMT -5
People hated Vicky but Vicky wanted to kill everyone!
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Post by Ligerfrost on May 10, 2018 20:38:37 GMT -5
With the exception of Bramblestar, Jayfeather and Tigerstar II, all my favorite cats are dead
So I have nothing to lose KILL AWAY!
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 10, 2018 21:16:51 GMT -5
Vicky wanted to kill cats in the dumbest way possible.
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Post by Ligerfrost on May 10, 2018 21:24:11 GMT -5
Vicky wanted to kill cats in the dumbest way possible. But they would have been dead |
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 10, 2018 21:37:26 GMT -5
Vicky wanted to kill cats in the dumbest way possible. But they would have been dead Nonsensical killing/Off Screen Death is worse than letting everyone just live forever. |
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Post by Ligerfrost on May 10, 2018 21:45:14 GMT -5
But they would have been dead Nonsensical killing/Off Screen Death is worse than letting everyone just live forever. I disagree if it's the cats who sit there collecting dust and wasting space not developing into anything worthwhile. Many were angry at all the cats who died after the Last Hope but half of the cats that died had no development. I personally had no attachment to them other than they were there. Nothing was done with them that worked with the plot. Clearing them out to make room for other characters so that we may potentially get cats who do develop seemed fine. I don't see why every death needs to be significant if there are an abundance of characters that need to be trimmed out. |
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 10, 2018 21:52:42 GMT -5
Nonsensical killing/Off Screen Death is worse than letting everyone just live forever. I disagree if it's the cats who sit there collecting dust and wasting space not developing into anything worthwhile. Many were angry at all the cats who died after the Last Hope but half of the cats that died had no development. I personally had no attachment to them other than they were there. Nothing was done with them that worked with the plot. Clearing them out to make room for other characters so that we may potentially get cats who do develop seemed fine. I don't see why every death needs to be significant if there are an abundance of characters that need to be trimmed out. Then that'at your opinion. But to me, I'd rather have a fleshed out death over a boom! you're dead scenario. And that's my opinion. Agree to disagree. |
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Post by sylveon on May 10, 2018 21:56:57 GMT -5
“Mass slaughter isn’t in our nature”
ShadowClan and SkyClan, in the distance
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 10, 2018 21:59:30 GMT -5
“Mass slaughter isn’t in our nature” ShadowClan and SkyClan, in the distance They only care about ThunderClanners, pft. |
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Post by Ligerfrost on May 10, 2018 22:04:08 GMT -5
I disagree if it's the cats who sit there collecting dust and wasting space not developing into anything worthwhile. Many were angry at all the cats who died after the Last Hope but half of the cats that died had no development. I personally had no attachment to them other than they were there. Nothing was done with them that worked with the plot. Clearing them out to make room for other characters so that we may potentially get cats who do develop seemed fine. I don't see why every death needs to be significant if there are an abundance of characters that need to be trimmed out. Then that'at your opinion. But to me, I'd rather have a fleshed out death over a boom! you're dead scenario. And that's my opinion. Agree to disagree. fair enough. |
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2018 22:09:44 GMT -5
Nonsensical killing/Off Screen Death is worse than letting everyone just live forever. I disagree if it's the cats who sit there collecting dust and wasting space not developing into anything worthwhile. Many were angry at all the cats who died after the Last Hope but half of the cats that died had no development. I personally had no attachment to them other than they were there. Nothing was done with them that worked with the plot. Clearing them out to make room for other characters so that we may potentially get cats who do develop seemed fine. I don't see why every death needs to be significant if there are an abundance of characters that need to be trimmed out. I think what angers people about the deaths in The Last Hope is that they were all so rushed and meaningless. For example, Brokenstar's death. In the first arc, his death was drawn out and meaningful. It was a long awaited, emotional, and interesting scene between him and Yellowfang. However, the second time around Yellowfang leaps at him and snaps his neck like he's nothing. And that's how most of the deaths throughout that book were. These are supposed to be the most feared cats in history, and yet here they are dropping like flies. Or, in Firestar's case the writing was extremely confusing and underwhelming. Six years later and people are still confused as to how Firestar died because of how clunky and confusing the writing was. Compared to some of the death scenes in the first arc, the deaths in TLH were very underwhelming and disappointing. I also think it's the fact that cats who were mentioned to be seriously injured survived, whereas cats who weren't mentioned the entire battle or were shown to be perfectly fine suddenly died off screen after the book ended. For example, Cloudtail was so injured that his entire pelt was mentioned to be covered in blood but he somehow survived... I don't think anyone would have a problem with the deaths in TLH if they had been written better. |
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Post by sylveon on May 10, 2018 22:11:20 GMT -5
“Mass slaughter isn’t in our nature” ShadowClan and SkyClan, in the distance They only care about ThunderClanners, pft. It’s honestly really sad. It’s one of the reasons I enjoyed Hawkwing’s Journey, so many cats dissapeared or died. Sharpclaw dying was brutal imo, Cherrytail staying with Barley and being unsure if she was gonna return to SkyClan, Waspwhisker being caught, Patchfoot, Echosong and Billystorm dying... it was brutal and GREAT. It made room for new characters like Frecklewish, Plumwillow etc. to develop in the series! |
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2018 22:19:50 GMT -5
But they would have been dead Nonsensical killing/Off Screen Death is worse than letting everyone just live forever. I agree. Off screen death doesn't always have to be a bad thing, but it's how the Erins have been using it lately that is so bad. Redtail, Lionheart, Spottedleaf, and Runningwind were all killed off screen, but their deaths were important and meaningful. While we didn't see it happen, we saw the emotional aftermath of their deaths and how they affected those around them. Each of their deaths had meaning that impacted the story, and each of their deaths continued to be an important key element in the rest of the story. Whereas now days, a character is killed off screen between books, vaguely brought up once at the beginning of the next one just for the sake of the reader knowing they died, and then they're never mentioned again. Their deaths have no overall impact on the story, and no cat seems to mourn or behave like they're gone. It's like they never even existed, which is odd and bothersome. I'd rather have the cats live forever than randomly vanish between books never to be mentioned again. |
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Post by Amberfoot on May 11, 2018 11:41:35 GMT -5
I agree with most responses here. Cats like Cloudtail, Brightheart, Thornclaw, and Brackenfur should have moved to the elders den at the beginning of AVOS. Senior warriors, like Squirrelflight, Whitewing and Birchfall, Berrynose, Mousewhisker etc. should be more regarded as the leaders of the warriors in the clan. The elders den would be full of stories and life (not with boring dreary Graystripe and awful Millie) and would be respected by Bramblestar and Squirrelflight.
Young cats should get the spotlight. Characters like Cherryfall, Molewhisker (who thankfully got some development even if it was just in the first book...), Ambermoon, Dewnose, Stormcloud (who was a kittypet turned warrior that no one talks about), Hollytuft, Sorrelstripe, Leafshade, Larksong, and Honeyfur desperately need development. I would LOVE to see how Ambermoon and Dewnose are as characters. I would love to know how Hollytuft, Sorrelstripe, and Leafshade are as characters. But no, the Erins just leave them as blanks and kill them off uneventfully at some point when the clan becomes too large.
Other charactes that had bad development: Mousewhisker, Poppyfrost (as of recently), Berrynose (as of recently), Bumblestripe, and Rosepetal. They need characters. Mousewhisker has been around LONG ENOUGH and could have a personality like Lionheart, or like Whitestorm, yet doesn't. Why? Who is he? I am still not sure who he is, haha. (Daisy's kit?)
I could go on and on. Deaths like Sootfur, Rainwhisker, Icecloud, Foxleap, Toadstep, that whole generation that disappeared that never had any development, was depressing. Snowbush died really weirdly as well, with no cats really mourning his death. Briarlight had a lot of screentime for not having any role in the clan. Why couldn't the development have been brought to this group of cats?
Anyway, with the disaster that is Ivypool's kits and the second litter from Cinderheart, I really am disappointed that we will have yet another round of apprentices that turn into background characters.
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