|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2018 8:18:42 GMT -5
Poll details: Reedshine - Mother of Appledusk's secend litter. Played no role in the kits' death. Told Mapleshade to go away when she went to Riverclan. Darkstar - Riverclan leader. Made offical call for Mapleshade to be sent away again. Perchpaw - Appledusk's apprentice. Mapleshade kinappes him to use as bait to lure Appledusk out. He kills Mapleshade after she killed Appledusk and tried to kill a pregant Reedshine. Beetail - Thunderclan duputy. Said nothing to defend Mapleshade or her kits during trial. Bloomheart - Mapleshade's mentor. Out right stated he agreed with the kits' exiled and he was ahamed of Mapleshade. Rabbitleap - Made Mapleshade's kits play a leaping game to test their jumping skills they 'got' from Brichface. But when they fail, his judgement makes Mapleshade go out of camp. While out, Rabbitfur tells Ravenwing, which leads to him figuring out the truth.
So it's commonly debated on whether Mapleshade's victims; Frecklewish, Ravenwing, Appledusk or Reedshine should go to the Dark Forest. (Yes, I'm including Reedshine, as, though rare, I have seen some people claim she deserves it).
However, I do feel like they're unfairly signaled solely for the fact that Mapleshade tried/did kill them. A good example of this, is that Oakstar is not brought up nearly as often as he should in those kind of debates, despite being the one to make the official choose to exile/endanger kits. And it's my theory, this is becuase Mapleshade didn't try to kill him or claims he deserves to die/suffer at any point. Since it's from Mapleshade's point of view, the reader will choose to focus on/hate anyone who she does.
Before getting into this, the only expectation to this Frecklewish, as she's done things that put her above, like: Attacking Mapleshade twice and not helping the kits while they drowned (Despite Riverclan already being there). So we can brush her aside for this. But that still leaves us with Ravenwing, Appledusk and Reedshine.
Thunderclan:
Ravenwing - People seemed to forget, that EVERYONE (Maybe besides from Nettlepaw) stood by when the kits were exiled without saying anything and quote on quote 'ruined Mapleshade's life' (Common phrase used by fans). Some were even yowling/cheering/encouraging it. In fact, Ravenwing is slightly better in this department, because he said he feels sorry for Mapleshade and the kits beforehand. And he never encourages the kits to be exiled, only focuses on getting Mapleshade to tell the truth. After that it never goes in detail about his reactions afterward, never saying he "yowled in approachment' or 'Smiled as Mapleshade was attacked'. Nothing of that nature.
The only thing we get, that its mentioned how his stare was cold at the start of the trial. But that's not much to go off. It can also be interpreted in many different ways. Where's his 'cold stare' aimed at exactly? Mapleshade? The kits? Both? No one specific and he's just bitter or maybe stressed?
Some way argue he should be signaled out because he's a Medicine cat, so as a higher ranked member, he needs to take extra reasonability when it comes to speaking out against the leader. However, may I ask, what about Beetail? He's the deputy, in a very capable position to speak out against Oakstar. Yet like everyone, he says and does nothing.
Many others also played a role:
Rabbitfur - The elder that made the kits play the leaping game, to test their skill inherited from their 'father', Birchface. And after failing, Rabbitfur judges them, leading to Mapleshade taking them out of camp. While they're out, Rabbitfur goes to Ravenwing, which leads him to figure out the truth. Rabbitfur also says nothing in the kits' defense during the trial.
Bloomheart - Mapleshade's mentor. After Oakstar says the kits needs to leave, Bloomheart agrees with him. And when Mapleshade reminds him that's he's her mentor, he turns a cold shoulder, saying he's ashamed of her. Actively agreeing that his former apprentice and her kits' should be exiled.
If Mapleshade had killed any of those cats, or any other Thunderclan warrior, would some people be saying they deserve the Dark forest? Because I'll say it and say it again, EVERYONE either said nothing or approved the kits' exile, which lead to their deaths. Does that mean everyone in Thunderclan at the time deserves the Dark Forest?
Riverclan:
Similar to Riverclan, some say Appledusk (And rarely Reedshine) deserve the Dark Forest, because he refused to take in the mother of half-Riverclan kits after she'd lost all of them. However same for this, EVERY Riverclan cat encouraged or said nothing, including the leader, deputy and Medicine cat as a grieving Queen was sent into exile again.
Also, a common misconception that Appledusk is the one who didn't let Mapleshade into the Clan. Yes, he agreed with it, definitely, but he's a mere warrior, he doesn't have the power to do that, especially when he's just been exposed as a traitor and is trying to dodged exile himself. It's Darkstar who made the official call to reject/exile Mapleshade. Does she deserve the Dark Forest?
|
|
|
Post by streamflower on Apr 9, 2018 9:14:24 GMT -5
Nah, I think Ravenwing deserves the Dark Forest.
Hear me out:
Medicine Cats are considered to be "outside of the code." They're supposed to be cats who don't care about clan boundaries, who should care more about protecting their clanmates than anything else. You can't tell me that Ravenwing didn't think that this could end extremely badly for Mapleshade and her kits. He did the equivalent of handing a loaded gun to a murderer and then apologized for it. He's Pontius Pilot, condemning the person but not wanting to take responsibility for it. He could have kept quiet for the good of the kits. Maybe he could have waited until they were older. He could have redirected Rabbitfur and just explained that, well, kits jump--there's a lot he could have done to save bloodshed. But he didn't. He followed a self-righteous cause for the "truth" which led nothing but death and destruction in its wake. Is what Mapleshade did wrong? Yes, of course. Is exiling a mother and her three kits wrong? Also yes. Is choosing to "seek the truth" over allowing peace wrong? In my opinion, yes.
It's very possible that Mapleshade would have done something to Appledusk or Reedshine, there's no doubt in my mind there--however, at least there is a good chance her kits would be alive. Do you think Oakstar would have sent away 3 fine apprentices/warriors because of a mothers actions? Of course not.
The bottom line is, Ravenwing was wrong. He could have been good but instead he allowed his "truth seeking" to cause the events of MV.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2018 9:40:59 GMT -5
Nah, I think Ravenwing deserves the Dark Forest. Hear me out: Medicine Cats are considered to be "outside of the code." They're supposed to be cats who don't care about clan boundaries, who should care more about protecting their clanmates than anything else. You can't tell me that Ravenwing didn't think that this could end extremely badly for Mapleshade and her kits. He did the equivalent of handing a loaded gun to a murderer and then apologized for it. He's Pontius Pilot, condemning the person but not wanting to take responsibility for it. He could have kept quiet for the good of the kits. Maybe he could have waited until they were older. He could have redirected Rabbitfur and just explained that, well, kits jump--there's a lot he could have done to save bloodshed. But he didn't. He followed a self-righteous cause for the "truth" which led nothing but death and destruction in its wake. Is what Mapleshade did wrong? Yes, of course. If exiled a mother and her three kits wrong? Also yes. I choosing to "seek the truth" over allowing peace wrong? In my opinion, yes. It's very possible that Mapleshade would have done something to Appledusk or Reedshine, there's no doubt in my mind there--however, at least there is a good chance her kits would be alive. Do you think Oakstar would have sent away 3 fine apprentices/warriors because of a mothers actions? Of course not. The bottom line is, Ravenwing was wrong. He could have been good but instead he allowed his "truth seeking" to cause the events of MV. I do agree that Ravenwing could of dealt with it better by waiting a little longer and standing up on the kits' behalf. However don't you think that the Dark Forest is rather extreme? Telling his leader about Omen he has is his duty and the Clan does have a right to know when one of their clanmates mated with an enemy cat that 'killed' two of their clanmates, including an apprentice. What you, including others, are asking of Ravenwing, is downright impossible. He physically can't protect everyone, he has to choose a side and betray the other. Either he lies to his Clanmates, for the sake of protecting one cat for their crimes, (Didn't know the kits would be punished) and put himself at risk of exile while he's the only Medicine cat. Or he tells his Clan, including Birchface's kin, that they've been lied to and that Birchface is not the kits' father but in fact its his murderer of him and his apprentice. They had a right to know, specially Frecklewish and Oakstar. Ravenwing was aware that the kits would suffer some degree, as a bare minimum, their clanmates would be hostile towards them and they'd have to watch their mother being punished for her crimes. However, Ravenwing couldn't of possibly of known that Oakstar would take it as far as exiling innocent kits. The kits were exiled because of Mapleshade, Appledusk and Oakstar. Ravenwing shouldn't be punished for their crimes. And their deaths were caused by Oakstar exposing them to a dangerous world, Mapleshade idiotically making them swim during a flood and nature itself. At the end of the day, the kits' deaths were an accident, they weren't murdered. And hasn't Ravenwing suffered enough? He's already been brutally killed, his life cut short at a young age. And you have to grant him, he was young, with his mentor only dying 4 moons beforehand, so he wouldn't of known the best course of action, he simply wanted to do the right thing. So he turned to his leader. Apart from this one mistake, he hasn't done anything else. By killing Thunderclan's only medicine cat, Mapleshade was also putting many more lives on the line. Who's going to treat kits and Elders with greencough when Leaf-bare came? Many preventable deaths would of happened.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Apr 9, 2018 9:42:10 GMT -5
Considering how low the bar is for getting into StarClan, I doubt any of these cats would be put in the Dark Forest anyways. Just by being killed by Mapleshade they got a free pass into StarClan, like Ashfur.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2018 9:47:01 GMT -5
Considering how low the bar is for getting into StarClan, I doubt any of these cats would be put in the Dark Forest anyways. Just by being killed by Mapleshade they got a free pass into StarClan, like Ashfur. But that's not exactly what this thread is about. I'm just pointing out the fact, that people only discuss Mapleshade's victims, on whether they should go to the Dark Forest or not. When they're not the only ones who played a part in the kits' exile and Mapleshade refusion. It's a little unfair for them to be signaled out, just becuase Mapleshade does, doesn't mean the fans have do too. When literally everyone in Thunderclan/Riverclan didn't do anything to prevent innocent kits being exile or a grieving mother being sent away.
|
|
|
Post by streamflower on Apr 9, 2018 9:50:19 GMT -5
Nah, I think Ravenwing deserves the Dark Forest. Hear me out: Medicine Cats are considered to be "outside of the code." They're supposed to be cats who don't care about clan boundaries, who should care more about protecting their clanmates than anything else. You can't tell me that Ravenwing didn't think that this could end extremely badly for Mapleshade and her kits. He did the equivalent of handing a loaded gun to a murderer and then apologized for it. He's Pontius Pilot, condemning the person but not wanting to take responsibility for it. He could have kept quiet for the good of the kits. Maybe he could have waited until they were older. He could have redirected Rabbitfur and just explained that, well, kits jump--there's a lot he could have done to save bloodshed. But he didn't. He followed a self-righteous cause for the "truth" which led nothing but death and destruction in its wake. Is what Mapleshade did wrong? Yes, of course. If exiled a mother and her three kits wrong? Also yes. I choosing to "seek the truth" over allowing peace wrong? In my opinion, yes. It's very possible that Mapleshade would have done something to Appledusk or Reedshine, there's no doubt in my mind there--however, at least there is a good chance her kits would be alive. Do you think Oakstar would have sent away 3 fine apprentices/warriors because of a mothers actions? Of course not. The bottom line is, Ravenwing was wrong. He could have been good but instead he allowed his "truth seeking" to cause the events of MV. I do agree that Ravenwing could of dealt with it better by waiting a little longer and standing up on the kits' behalf. However don't you think that the Dark Forest is rather extreme? Telling his leader about Omen he has is his duty and the Clan does have a right to know when one of their clanmates mated with an enemy cat that 'killed' two of their clanmates, including an apprentice. What you, including others, are asking of Ravenwing, is downright impossible. He physically can't protect everyone, he has to choose a side and betray the other. Either he lies to his Clanmates, for the sake of protecting one cat for their crimes, (Didn't know the kits would be punished) and put himself at risk of exile while he's the only Medicine cat. Or he tells his Clan, including Birchface's kin, that they've been lied to and that Birchface is not the kits' father but in fact its his murderer of him and his apprentice. They had a right to know, specially Frecklewish and Oakstar. Ravenwing was aware that the kits would suffer some degree, as a bare minimum, their clanmates would be hostile towards them and they'd have to watch their mother being punished for her crimes. However, Ravenwing could of possibly of known that Oakstar would take it as far as exiling innocent kits. The kits were exiled because of Mapleshade, Appledusk and Oakstar, Ravenwing shouldn't be punished for their crimes. And their deaths were caused by Oakstar exposing them to a dangerous world, Mapleshade idiotically making them swim during a flood and nature itself. At the end of the day, the kits' deaths were an accident, they weren't murdered. And hasn't Ravenwing suffered enough? He's already been brutally killed, his life cut short as at a young age. And you have to grant him, he was young, with his mentor only dying 4 moons beforehand, so he wouldn't of known the best course of action, he simply wanted to do the right thing. So he turned to his leader. By killing Thunderclan's only medicine cat, Mapleshade was also putting many more lives on the line. Who's going to treat kits and Elders with greencough when Leaf-bare came? Many preventable deaths would of happened. Many medicine cats have faked omens--some going so far as to fake omens to decide who would be leader next (Redscar). Ravenwing full-well knew that the kits would be punished and went along and told Oakstar anyway--and that is something that is unforgivable. He knowingly put three innocent lives on the line. And even if he didn't think they would be exiled--he could have tried to reason with Oakstar instead of letting them be driven out, but he didn't. Furthermore, no, Ravenwing had a very easy choice: Keep everyone happy, keep kits alive, let the clans not have a crazed murderer on the loose, etc. Instead, he opted for the "piss-everyone-off-hurt-everyone-and-allow-innocent-lives-to-be-taken" option. That is unforgivable. Live many Thunderclan cats, he's too high-and-mighty. Furthermore, Ravenwing would not have been murdered had he kept his maw shut; Mapleshade would have no reason to kill him if her kits survived. So no, his blatant disregard for the lives of kits he is supposed to protect and his ridiculous search for "the truth" is what got not only Mapleshades kits killed, Frecklewish killed, Himself Killed, Appledusk killed, as well as other elders after his (Ravenwing's) own death. He has at the very least three innocent lives destroyed because he wouldn't keep quiet. Three kits dead because of not only his pride, but because of his failure to abide by the code he is supposed to live by. He absolutely deserves the dark forest. He may not have held the kits underwater and drowned them, but may as well have given his disregard for their lives.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2018 10:04:30 GMT -5
I do agree that Ravenwing could of dealt with it better by waiting a little longer and standing up on the kits' behalf. However don't you think that the Dark Forest is rather extreme? Telling his leader about Omen he has is his duty and the Clan does have a right to know when one of their clanmates mated with an enemy cat that 'killed' two of their clanmates, including an apprentice. What you, including others, are asking of Ravenwing, is downright impossible. He physically can't protect everyone, he has to choose a side and betray the other. Either he lies to his Clanmates, for the sake of protecting one cat for their crimes, (Didn't know the kits would be punished) and put himself at risk of exile while he's the only Medicine cat. Or he tells his Clan, including Birchface's kin, that they've been lied to and that Birchface is not the kits' father but in fact its his murderer of him and his apprentice. They had a right to know, specially Frecklewish and Oakstar. Ravenwing was aware that the kits would suffer some degree, as a bare minimum, their clanmates would be hostile towards them and they'd have to watch their mother being punished for her crimes. However, Ravenwing could of possibly of known that Oakstar would take it as far as exiling innocent kits. The kits were exiled because of Mapleshade, Appledusk and Oakstar, Ravenwing shouldn't be punished for their crimes. And their deaths were caused by Oakstar exposing them to a dangerous world, Mapleshade idiotically making them swim during a flood and nature itself. At the end of the day, the kits' deaths were an accident, they weren't murdered. And hasn't Ravenwing suffered enough? He's already been brutally killed, his life cut short as at a young age. And you have to grant him, he was young, with his mentor only dying 4 moons beforehand, so he wouldn't of known the best course of action, he simply wanted to do the right thing. So he turned to his leader. By killing Thunderclan's only medicine cat, Mapleshade was also putting many more lives on the line. Who's going to treat kits and Elders with greencough when Leaf-bare came? Many preventable deaths would of happened. Many medicine cats have faked omens--some going so far as to fake omens to decide who would be leader next (Redscar). Ravenwing full-well knew that the kits would be punished and went along and told Oakstar anyway--and that is something that is unforgivable. He knowingly put three innocent lives on the line. And even if he didn't think they would be exiled--he could have tried to reason with Oakstar instead of letting them be driven out, but he didn't. Furthermore, Ravenwing would not have been murdered had he kept his maw shut; Mapleshade would have no reason to kill him if her kits survived. So no, his blatant disregard for the lives of kits he is supposed to protect and his ridiculous search for "the truth" is what got not only Mapleshades kits killed, Frecklewish killed, Himself Killed, Appledusk killed, as well as other elders after his (Ravenwing's) own death. He has at the very least three innocent lives destroyed because he wouldn't keep quiet. Three kits dead because of not only his pride, but because of his failure to abide by the code he is supposed to live by. He absolutely deserves the dark forest. He may not have held the kits underwater and drowned them, but may as well have given his disregard for their lives. He didn't do it for the sake of his pride, he was trying to do the right thing. He didn't think he putting the kits' LIVES on line, as he wasn't aware they were going to be exiled, under normal circumstances, if Oakstar was actually a decent leader, the kits would of been allowed to stayed in camp, either letting Mapleshade stay while she's being punished with something other then exile or they are adopted by another queen. He didn't cause Mapleshade's killing spree, she did that to herself by having a forbidden relationship, being overly native, not planning for it, using her dead Clanmate was the father of her kits, when it's actually his murderer and making her kits swim during flood, without even trying to find a safer way round. Ravenwing didn't do this for the sake of pride, he did becuase he thought it was right thing/duty. He's young, so he turned to his leader when he had an omen, what else do you expect him to do? He wasn't willing to subvert from the warrior code, becuase in the time he lived, the code was followed much more closely, by the fact a kits/Queen were exiled for a forbidden romance, when this hasn't happened in the modern times. Sure, we/characters know the code, not the end all be all of the mortality now, but when Ravenwing was alive, no one had challenged it yet. Ravenwing had grown up his entire life that the code was one of the most important things, the only thing putting the Clan above rouges. So course, he didn't want to subvert it. All of Thunderclan stood aside and did nothing while their leader exiled kits, some like Bloomheart and Frecklewish even agreed with it. At least Ravenwing never said aloud he agreed with it or showed encouragement for it. It's unfair to signal him out. If he goes to the Dark Forest for it, then the majority of that Thunderclan generation goes too.
|
|
|
Post by streamflower on Apr 9, 2018 10:41:18 GMT -5
Many medicine cats have faked omens--some going so far as to fake omens to decide who would be leader next (Redscar). Ravenwing full-well knew that the kits would be punished and went along and told Oakstar anyway--and that is something that is unforgivable. He knowingly put three innocent lives on the line. And even if he didn't think they would be exiled--he could have tried to reason with Oakstar instead of letting them be driven out, but he didn't. Furthermore, Ravenwing would not have been murdered had he kept his maw shut; Mapleshade would have no reason to kill him if her kits survived. So no, his blatant disregard for the lives of kits he is supposed to protect and his ridiculous search for "the truth" is what got not only Mapleshades kits killed, Frecklewish killed, Himself Killed, Appledusk killed, as well as other elders after his (Ravenwing's) own death. He has at the very least three innocent lives destroyed because he wouldn't keep quiet. Three kits dead because of not only his pride, but because of his failure to abide by the code he is supposed to live by. He absolutely deserves the dark forest. He may not have held the kits underwater and drowned them, but may as well have given his disregard for their lives. He didn't do it for the sake of his pride, he was trying to do the right thing. He didn't think he putting the kits' LIVES on line, as he wasn't aware they were going to be exiled, under normal circumstances, if Oakstar was actually a decent leader, the kits would of been allowed to stayed in camp, either letting Mapleshade stay while she's being punished with something other then exile or they are adopted by another queen. He didn't cause Mapleshade's killing spree, she did that to herself by having a forbidden relationship, being overly native, not planning for it, using her dead Clanmate was the father of her kits, when it's actually his murderer and making her kits swim during flood, without even trying to find a safer way round. Ravenwing didn't do this for the sake of pride, he did becuase he thought it was right thing/duty. He's young, so he turned to his leader when he had an omen, what else do you expect him to do? He wasn't willing to subvert from the warrior code, becuase in the time he lived, the code was followed much more closely, by the fact a kits/Queen were exiled for a forbidden romance, when this hasn't happened in the modern times. Sure, we/characters know the code, not the end all be all of the mortality now, but when Ravenwing was alive, no one had challenged it yet. Ravenwing had grown up his entire life that the code was one of the most important things, the only thing putting the Clan above rouges. So course, he didn't want to subvert it. All of Thunderclan stood aside and did nothing while their leader exiled kits, some like Bloomheart and Frecklewish even agreed with it. At least Ravenwing never said aloud he agreed with it or showed encouragement for it. It's unfair to signal him out. If he goes to the Dark Forest for it, then the majority of that Thunderclan generation goes too. And that's where I'm going to disagree with you; I think he full well knew that their lives would be at risk, especially if the code was followed as strictly as it was. However, we need to remember this: He should not be following the warrior code but the medicine cat code. He was literally following the wrong code, so yes, it is a crime of pride for him. Furthermore, yes, Mapleshade had a forbidden romance--but, would she have gone on a killing spree if her kits had survived? That is almost certainly a no. If her kits heritage was hidden, would they be alive? Most likely yes. And believing you are "doing the right thing/doing your duty" is due to pride. Something that Ravenwing has too much of. And he should have been willing to subvert the warrior code because he is a medicine cat and medicine cats are not bound by the same code. And yes, all of Thunderclan stood aside, but that main reason they found out was because of Ravenwing. Ravenwing ignored the fact that the code for medicine cats was different, paid too much heed to the warrior code, and allowed three innocent children to be exiled. He, above all, should have fought for those kits to stay. I will not blame the rest of thunderclan because like you said--warrior code. But Ravenwing should follow the medicine cat code, and he failed to do that, thus failing his duty as medicine cat of his clan by failing to protect those who needed him most. He should have and could have stood up for them, and as a medicine cat his clanmates would have most likely listened to him--but he kept his mouth shut, and thus the events of MV came to fruition.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2018 10:53:44 GMT -5
He didn't do it for the sake of his pride, he was trying to do the right thing. He didn't think he putting the kits' LIVES on line, as he wasn't aware they were going to be exiled, under normal circumstances, if Oakstar was actually a decent leader, the kits would of been allowed to stayed in camp, either letting Mapleshade stay while she's being punished with something other then exile or they are adopted by another queen. He didn't cause Mapleshade's killing spree, she did that to herself by having a forbidden relationship, being overly native, not planning for it, using her dead Clanmate was the father of her kits, when it's actually his murderer and making her kits swim during flood, without even trying to find a safer way round. Ravenwing didn't do this for the sake of pride, he did becuase he thought it was right thing/duty. He's young, so he turned to his leader when he had an omen, what else do you expect him to do? He wasn't willing to subvert from the warrior code, becuase in the time he lived, the code was followed much more closely, by the fact a kits/Queen were exiled for a forbidden romance, when this hasn't happened in the modern times. Sure, we/characters know the code, not the end all be all of the mortality now, but when Ravenwing was alive, no one had challenged it yet. Ravenwing had grown up his entire life that the code was one of the most important things, the only thing putting the Clan above rouges. So course, he didn't want to subvert it. All of Thunderclan stood aside and did nothing while their leader exiled kits, some like Bloomheart and Frecklewish even agreed with it. At least Ravenwing never said aloud he agreed with it or showed encouragement for it. It's unfair to signal him out. If he goes to the Dark Forest for it, then the majority of that Thunderclan generation goes too. And that's where I'm going to disagree with you; I think he full well knew that their lives would be at risk, especially if the code was followed as strictly as it was. However, we need to remember this: He should not be following the warrior code but the medicine cat code. He was literally following the wrong code, so yes, it is a crime of pride for him. Furthermore, yes, Mapleshade had a forbidden romance--but, would she have gone on a killing spree if her kits had survived? That is almost certainly a no. If her kits heritage was hidden, would they be alive? Most likely yes. And believing you are "doing the right thing/doing your duty" is due to pride. Something that Ravenwing has too much of. And he should have been willing to subvert the warrior code because he is a medicine cat and medicine cats are not bound by the same code. And yes, all of Thunderclan stood aside, but that main reason they found out was because of Ravenwing. Ravenwing ignored the fact that the code for medicine cats was different, paid too much heed to the warrior code, and allowed three innocent children to be exiled. He, above all, should have fought for those kits to stay. I will not blame the rest of thunderclan because like you said--warrior code. But Ravenwing should follow the medicine cat code, and he failed to do that, thus failing his duty as medicine cat of his clan by failing to protect those who needed him most. He should have and could have stood up for them, and as a medicine cat his clanmates would have most likely listened to him--but he kept his mouth shut, and thus the events of MV came to fruition. Yes, he failed his duty as a Medicine cat. However, do you still think he deserves the Dark Forest? It's that going overboard? He wasn't the only one who indirectly caused their deaths, everyone played some kind of role in it. Like said before; he didn't murder the kits, it was accident no one could of predicted. Apart from the mistakes with kits, he's done nothing else wrong, it'd only been 4 moons since his meteor's death, he was young and he's already paid by being brutally murdered at a young age and having his grave unturned to be eaten by crows.
|
|
|
Post by streamflower on Apr 9, 2018 11:01:30 GMT -5
And that's where I'm going to disagree with you; I think he full well knew that their lives would be at risk, especially if the code was followed as strictly as it was. However, we need to remember this: He should not be following the warrior code but the medicine cat code. He was literally following the wrong code, so yes, it is a crime of pride for him. Furthermore, yes, Mapleshade had a forbidden romance--but, would she have gone on a killing spree if her kits had survived? That is almost certainly a no. If her kits heritage was hidden, would they be alive? Most likely yes. And believing you are "doing the right thing/doing your duty" is due to pride. Something that Ravenwing has too much of. And he should have been willing to subvert the warrior code because he is a medicine cat and medicine cats are not bound by the same code. And yes, all of Thunderclan stood aside, but that main reason they found out was because of Ravenwing. Ravenwing ignored the fact that the code for medicine cats was different, paid too much heed to the warrior code, and allowed three innocent children to be exiled. He, above all, should have fought for those kits to stay. I will not blame the rest of thunderclan because like you said--warrior code. But Ravenwing should follow the medicine cat code, and he failed to do that, thus failing his duty as medicine cat of his clan by failing to protect those who needed him most. He should have and could have stood up for them, and as a medicine cat his clanmates would have most likely listened to him--but he kept his mouth shut, and thus the events of MV came to fruition. Yes, he failed his duty as a Medicine cat. However, do you still think he deserves the Dark Forest? It's that going overboard? He wasn't the only one who indirectly caused their deaths, everyone played some kind of role in it. Like said before; he didn't murder the kits, it was accident no one could of predicted. Apart from the mistakes with kits, he's done nothing else wrong, it'd only been 4 moons since his meteor's death, he was young and he's already paid by being brutally murdered at a young age and having his grave unturned to be eaten by crows. Any cat who fails their duty, causes the death of three innocents, and is allowing his emotions and pride to be a main factor in his justification for the situation deserves the dark forest. The kits were also young and drowned; their lives cut short considerably more than Ravenwing. None of those deaths would have happened had he simply followed his duty as a medicine cat. But he did. So yes, to me, he deserves the Dark Forest. I personally don't care that his mentor died four moons beforehand; Yellowfang died and that didn't make Cinderheart a terrible medicine cat who abandons her duties. Same with Mothwing; Mudfur died shortly after her training began, and despite her disbelief in Starclan she was still a fantastic medicine cat. Having your mentor die doesn't excuse crappy actions which causes the death of three innocents.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2018 11:04:49 GMT -5
Yes, he failed his duty as a Medicine cat. However, do you still think he deserves the Dark Forest? It's that going overboard? He wasn't the only one who indirectly caused their deaths, everyone played some kind of role in it. Like said before; he didn't murder the kits, it was accident no one could of predicted. Apart from the mistakes with kits, he's done nothing else wrong, it'd only been 4 moons since his meteor's death, he was young and he's already paid by being brutally murdered at a young age and having his grave unturned to be eaten by crows. Any cat who fails their duty, causes the death of three innocents, and is allowing his emotions and pride to be a main factor in his justification for the situation deserves the dark forest. The kits were also young and drowned; their lives cut short considerably more than Ravenwing. None of those deaths would have happened had he simply followed his duty as a medicine cat. But he did. So yes, to me, he deserves the Dark Forest. I personally don't care that his mentor died four moons beforehand; Yellowfang died and that didn't make Cinderheart a terrible medicine cat who abandons her duties. Same with Mothwing; Mudfur died shortly after her training began, and despite her disbelief in Starclan she was still a fantastic medicine cat. Having your mentor die doesn't excuse crappy actions which causes the death of three innocents. Well, I still believe the kits' deaths are not his fault at all. Ravenwing was simply trying to expose Mapleshade for her crimes. The kits' deaths were caused; by nature, Oakstar for making the call exiling them and Mapleshade making them swim in a flood (And partly Appledusk for having half-clan kits). In my option, he has done nothing to deserve the Dark Forest. Being a bad Medicine cat isn't a crime. Unless he wanted to purposefully endanger them through exiled or physically murdered them, he should not be held so accountable to their deaths, that he's gets punished for it by spending forever walking aimlessly in isolation. Too many cats are involved in this for him to signaled out, if he goes, everyone goes with him. At the end of the day, he didn't send them into exile or did he kill them. The kits' deaths were the accident, no one could of possibly predicted.
|
|
|
Post by streamflower on Apr 9, 2018 11:34:07 GMT -5
Any cat who fails their duty, causes the death of three innocents, and is allowing his emotions and pride to be a main factor in his justification for the situation deserves the dark forest. The kits were also young and drowned; their lives cut short considerably more than Ravenwing. None of those deaths would have happened had he simply followed his duty as a medicine cat. But he did. So yes, to me, he deserves the Dark Forest. I personally don't care that his mentor died four moons beforehand; Yellowfang died and that didn't make Cinderheart a terrible medicine cat who abandons her duties. Same with Mothwing; Mudfur died shortly after her training began, and despite her disbelief in Starclan she was still a fantastic medicine cat. Having your mentor die doesn't excuse crappy actions which causes the death of three innocents. Well, I still believe the kits' deaths are not his fault at all. Ravenwing was simply trying to expose Mapleshade for her crimes. The kits' deaths were caused; by nature, Oakstar for making the call exiling them and Mapleshade making them swim in a flood (And partly Appledusk for having half-clan kits). In my option, he has done nothing to deserve the Dark Forest. Being a bad Medicine cat isn't a crime. Unless he wanted to purposefully endanger them through exiled or physically murdered them, he should not be held so accountable to their deaths, that he's gets punished for it by spending forever walking aimlessly in isolation. Too many cats are involved in this for him to signaled out, if he goes, everyone goes with him. At the end of the day, he didn't send them into exile or did he kill them. The kits' deaths were the accident, no one could of possibly predicted. I disagree. I think he is just as responsible as Mapleshade. 1) He tried exposing Mapleshade for her crimes--right there he fails his duty as a medicine cat. 2) The kits deaths could have been avoided entirely if Ravenwing hadn't said anything. Thus, it is because of Ravenwing that the kits were eventually exiled anyway. He broke the medicine cat code, did nothing to try and save the kits, and allowed his own self-righteousness and pride get in the way of him doing his job. Being a bad medicine cat IS a crime though. In Shadowclan Yellowfang was EXILED because they believed she murdered kits (AKA, was a bad medicine cat). And no, he did exile them and he did kill them by failing to keep his mouth shut and by failing to stand up for them when he could have. You cannot deny that if Ravenwing had just been quiet, that the events of MV would most likely not have happened. Ravenwing is a huge reason behind the whole event of MV. Yes, Mapleshade mated with and had kits with a cat from another clan--but Ravenwing outed her for that. If he hadn't said anything, no one would have been any the wiser. He deserves the Dark Forest for failing his clanmates (the kits), causing their deaths, and failing the medicine cat code.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2018 11:54:51 GMT -5
Well, I still believe the kits' deaths are not his fault at all. Ravenwing was simply trying to expose Mapleshade for her crimes. The kits' deaths were caused; by nature, Oakstar for making the call exiling them and Mapleshade making them swim in a flood (And partly Appledusk for having half-clan kits). In my option, he has done nothing to deserve the Dark Forest. Being a bad Medicine cat isn't a crime. Unless he wanted to purposefully endanger them through exiled or physically murdered them, he should not be held so accountable to their deaths, that he's gets punished for it by spending forever walking aimlessly in isolation. Too many cats are involved in this for him to signaled out, if he goes, everyone goes with him. At the end of the day, he didn't send them into exile or did he kill them. The kits' deaths were the accident, no one could of possibly predicted. I disagree. I think he is just as responsible as Mapleshade. 1) He tried exposing Mapleshade for her crimes--right there he fails his duty as a medicine cat. 2) The kits deaths could have been avoided entirely if Ravenwing hadn't said anything. Thus, it is because of Ravenwing that the kits were eventually exiled anyway. He broke the medicine cat code, did nothing to try and save the kits, and allowed his own self-righteousness and pride get in the way of him doing his job. Being a bad medicine cat IS a crime though. In Shadowclan Yellowfang was EXILED because they believed she murdered kits (AKA, was a bad medicine cat). And no, he did exile them and he did kill them by failing to keep his mouth shut and by failing to stand up for them when he could have. You cannot deny that if Ravenwing had just been quiet, that the events of MV would most likely not have happened. Ravenwing is a huge reason behind the whole event of MV. Yes, Mapleshade mated with and had kits with a cat from another clan--but Ravenwing outed her for that. If he hadn't said anything, no one would have been any the wiser. He deserves the Dark Forest for failing his clanmates (the kits), causing their deaths, and failing the medicine cat code. Yes, he should of defended that kits, but everyone is guilty of not doing that. Ravenwing shouldn't be punished for exposing someone for their crimes, it's not against the Warrior or Medicine cat code. As a Medicine cat he's meant to tell his leader about Omens. He shouldn't be punished for Mapleshade's, Appledusk's or Oakstar's crimes. His actions at only one in many factors that caused the kits' deaths, and it was indirect and unintentional. Many people are reasonable for the kits' deaths. And I'll keep on saying it: It's unfair signal Ravenwing out, when everyone else failed to defend the kits, even other ranking cat Beetail didn't do anything either. If he goes to the Dark Forest, then everyone goes down with him. Also, your Yellowfang example doesn't work. She was exiled becuase they thought she killed two kits, she was exiled for murder, not because she was just bad at her duties like Ravenwing is. Who I have to admit, you have rather overly high expectations for; who, if he doesn't meet them and can't protect the kits, that everyone else failed to protect, that were endangered by the leader/traitorous parents, not him, he instantly goes to the Dark Forest. I think debate gone on long enough and we now starting to repeat things, so I'll end it here. So let's just mutually agree that we've failed to change each other's options. Let's agree to disagree.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2018 13:44:44 GMT -5
Update: Poll added.
|
|
|
Post by streamflower on Apr 9, 2018 17:22:28 GMT -5
I disagree. I think he is just as responsible as Mapleshade. 1) He tried exposing Mapleshade for her crimes--right there he fails his duty as a medicine cat. 2) The kits deaths could have been avoided entirely if Ravenwing hadn't said anything. Thus, it is because of Ravenwing that the kits were eventually exiled anyway. He broke the medicine cat code, did nothing to try and save the kits, and allowed his own self-righteousness and pride get in the way of him doing his job. Being a bad medicine cat IS a crime though. In Shadowclan Yellowfang was EXILED because they believed she murdered kits (AKA, was a bad medicine cat). And no, he did exile them and he did kill them by failing to keep his mouth shut and by failing to stand up for them when he could have. You cannot deny that if Ravenwing had just been quiet, that the events of MV would most likely not have happened. Ravenwing is a huge reason behind the whole event of MV. Yes, Mapleshade mated with and had kits with a cat from another clan--but Ravenwing outed her for that. If he hadn't said anything, no one would have been any the wiser. He deserves the Dark Forest for failing his clanmates (the kits), causing their deaths, and failing the medicine cat code. Yes, he should of defended that kits, but everyone is guilty of not doing that. Ravenwing shouldn't be punished for exposing someone for their crimes, it's not against the Warrior or Medicine cat code. As a Medicine cat he's meant to tell his leader about Omens. He shouldn't be punished for Mapleshade's, Appledusk's or Oakstar's crimes. His actions at only one in many factors that caused the kits' deaths, and it was indirect and unintentional. Many people are reasonable for the kits' deaths. And I'll keep on saying it: It's unfair signal Ravenwing out, when everyone else failed to defend the kits, even other ranking cat Beetail didn't do anything either. If he goes to the Dark Forest, then everyone goes down with him. Also, your Yellowfang example doesn't work. She was exiled becuase they thought she killed two kits, she was exiled for murder, not because she was just bad at her duties like Ravenwing is. Who I have to admit, you have rather overly high expectations for; who, if he doesn't meet them and can't protect the kits, that everyone else failed to protect, that were endangered by the leader/traitorous parents, not him, he instantly goes to the Dark Forest. I think debate gone on long enough and we now starting to repeat things, so I'll end it here. So let's just mutually agree that we've failed to change each other's options. Let's agree to disagree. To be honest, it's not fair of you to tell me that my argument doesn't work and then shut the discussion down. I personally believe it does; bad medicine bad who doesn't follow the code? Bye. Another example could be Brokenstar. He never murdered the kits he kidnapped per say, but he was responsible for their deaths. He forced them to train too young, and pitted them against fully grown warriors and apprentices. He was a bad leader who broke the code, was responsible for the death of kits, and was sent to the Dark Forest. Was Brokenstar worse? Of course. But they're both guilty of similar crimes--aid in the death of the innocent. Ravenwing to me is the same way. He didn't follow the code of a medicine cat. He could have lied (just as countless other medicine cats have lied for the good of their clans) for the kits sake but he didn't. That makes him a bad medicine cat, a breaker of his code, and a cat with a paw in the death of three innocent kits, and is thus deserving of the Dark Forest. I will agree to disagree though. You won't change my mind, and I won't change yours.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2018 17:35:24 GMT -5
Yes, he should of defended that kits, but everyone is guilty of not doing that. Ravenwing shouldn't be punished for exposing someone for their crimes, it's not against the Warrior or Medicine cat code. As a Medicine cat he's meant to tell his leader about Omens. He shouldn't be punished for Mapleshade's, Appledusk's or Oakstar's crimes. His actions at only one in many factors that caused the kits' deaths, and it was indirect and unintentional. Many people are reasonable for the kits' deaths. And I'll keep on saying it: It's unfair signal Ravenwing out, when everyone else failed to defend the kits, even other ranking cat Beetail didn't do anything either. If he goes to the Dark Forest, then everyone goes down with him. Also, your Yellowfang example doesn't work. She was exiled becuase they thought she killed two kits, she was exiled for murder, not because she was just bad at her duties like Ravenwing is. Who I have to admit, you have rather overly high expectations for; who, if he doesn't meet them and can't protect the kits, that everyone else failed to protect, that were endangered by the leader/traitorous parents, not him, he instantly goes to the Dark Forest. I think debate gone on long enough and we now starting to repeat things, so I'll end it here. So let's just mutually agree that we've failed to change each other's options. Let's agree to disagree. To be honest, it's not fair of you to tell me that my argument doesn't work and then shut the discussion down. I personally believe it does; bad medicine bad who doesn't follow the code? Bye. Another example could be Brokenstar. He never murdered the kits he kidnapped per say, but he was responsible for their deaths. He forced them to train too young, and pitted them against fully grown warriors and apprentices. He was a bad leader who broke the code, was responsible for the death of kits, and was sent to the Dark Forest. Was Brokenstar worse? Of course. But they're both guilty of similar crimes--aid in the death of the innocent. Ravenwing to me is the same way. He didn't follow the code of a medicine cat. He could have lied (just as countless other medicine cats have lied for the good of their clans) for the kits sake but he didn't. That makes him a bad medicine cat, a breaker of his code, and a cat with a paw in the death of three innocent kits, and is thus deserving of the Dark Forest. I will agree to disagree though. You won't change my mind, and I won't change yours. I won't debate you on this if you don't want to, as this has gone on for quite a whole already. But I'm curious what are your options on Frecklewish and Oakstar are then? By your logic that playing some kind of role, even indicative/unintentional of three kits' deaths is enough to get to the Dark Forest.
|
|
|
Post by streamflower on Apr 9, 2018 18:32:13 GMT -5
To be honest, it's not fair of you to tell me that my argument doesn't work and then shut the discussion down. I personally believe it does; bad medicine bad who doesn't follow the code? Bye. Another example could be Brokenstar. He never murdered the kits he kidnapped per say, but he was responsible for their deaths. He forced them to train too young, and pitted them against fully grown warriors and apprentices. He was a bad leader who broke the code, was responsible for the death of kits, and was sent to the Dark Forest. Was Brokenstar worse? Of course. But they're both guilty of similar crimes--aid in the death of the innocent. Ravenwing to me is the same way. He didn't follow the code of a medicine cat. He could have lied (just as countless other medicine cats have lied for the good of their clans) for the kits sake but he didn't. That makes him a bad medicine cat, a breaker of his code, and a cat with a paw in the death of three innocent kits, and is thus deserving of the Dark Forest. I will agree to disagree though. You won't change my mind, and I won't change yours. I won't debate you on this if you don't want to, as this has gone on for quite a whole already. But I'm curious what are your options on Frecklewish and Oakstar are then? By your logic that playing some kind of role, even indicative/unintentional of three kits' deaths is enough to get to the Dark Forest. Actually, not necessarily. Oakstar - He is the clan leader, bound by the warrior code. His job is to protect all of his clanmates regardless of their status in the clan. He is allowed to punish rule breakers as such. In this case, I do believe that he was way too harsh on the kits (not necessarily Mapleshade) and I do believe he played a part in their death. I believe he deserves the Dark Forest for that. A clan leader is supposed to protect their clan; throw Mapleshade out, sure, she broke the code--but her children? Nah. He knew he was sentencing them to death. Frecklewish - She's a warrior. Her code is different from Ravenwing's, and even from Oakstar's a bit (Warrior code seems to be slightly different from a clan leader). While she was hurt and she did watch the kits drown--what could she have done? She can't swim. She'd either have drowned, or been as useless as Mapleshade was. I don't necessarily think she should be in the Dark Forest. Did she react badly to the situation? Sure. But is she in charge of protecting her entire clan (Oakstar) or keeping them healthy/alive without regard for their bloodlines (Ravenwing)? No. Yes, she is supposed to protect the borders of thunderclan, fight battles, protect her clanmates--but her role is not "lead the clan/protect the clan," it's "Protect the clan as your leader sees fit." So while I don't like her and personally think she's a bad cat, I think she deserves Starclan. There's not much she could have done, and even if she argued for the kits to stay Oakstar would most likely not have been swayed. Ravenwing, possibly, but not another warrior.
|
|
|
Post by Chocolate-Fawn on Apr 9, 2018 18:37:05 GMT -5
I would be singing a different tune if Oakstar the b**** didn't exile three two moon old kits!!!
|
|
|
Post by Mistybreeze on Apr 9, 2018 19:19:41 GMT -5
The DF is generally reserved for the worst of the worst. The morally gray characters generally get into StarClan.
That being said, the only cats who truly deserve the DF are Oakstar and Ravenwing. They knowingly caused the deaths of three defenseless kits. Saving lives definitely trumps upholding a rule that threats those lives. I guess you could argue that Oakstar was acting partially out of grief, but that doesn't justify his actions. He was the leader and was supposed to be impartial. I suspect things would have turned out very different if Mapleshade hadn't used Birchface to cover her furry butt. Ravenwing is even worse. He was a freaking medicine cat! Impartiality is the core of the medicine code! He absolutely deserves the DF.
Frecklewish and Appledusk are gray areas. What they did was wrong, but I don't think they were bad enough for the DF. The rest definitely don't deserve the DF.
|
|
|
Post by Tas on Apr 9, 2018 19:29:02 GMT -5
streamflower I agree with you that Ravenwing shouldn't have got off scott-free. No one having anything to do with Mapleshade's tale should. When the brutal death of 7 cats is involved, everyone has to be a little bit guilty, and Ravenwing certainly was. But the Dark Forest is just too harsh. If we said that every accomplice to every death or every murder went to the Dark Forest... there would be no point in having either. This sounds pretty deep, but having the Dark Forest be that easily reachable counts out its purpose. It is the kitty Hell. Cats die in Warriors; cats are killed in Warriors. If everyone having anything to do with murder went to the Dark Forest, what would be the point of it -- or StarClan? Even cats like Firestar and Spottedleaf would go to the Dark Forest. You might as well make everyone go there, for that is the nature of Warriors. No, Ravenwing did not make the right decision. Yes, he may have been able to save the kits. But it was probably too late, you know? Mapleshade was basically already insane at that point. Her kits dying is what turned her completely, and Appledusk turning his back on her is what made her murderous and then, eventually, going to the Dark Forest. This is stretching out, and my point probably seems pretty clear. Ravenwing is guilty, but he cannot be compared to Mapleshade, who killed at least three people in cold blood. He was doing what he thought was best for his Clan and his code (as morally unsound as it were).
|
|
|
Post by Damon Salvatore on Apr 9, 2018 19:53:08 GMT -5
I say Dark Forest for all of them
|
|
|
Post by Basement Cat on Apr 9, 2018 21:38:51 GMT -5
okay who the hell put Perchpaw for the Dark Forest? Appledusk and Oakstar, yeah, I get them. But Perchpaw did nothing wrong.
|
|
|
Post by briarlightforpres on Apr 9, 2018 21:48:09 GMT -5
Can someone explain to me why people are putting Frecklewish for the DF?
|
|
|
Post by streamflower on Apr 9, 2018 22:09:08 GMT -5
Can someone explain to me why people are putting Frecklewish for the DF? I think the reasoning is that she watched the kits drown and didn't try to help (I still think she should be SC though because let's face is Frecklewish probably can't swim).
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2018 22:18:14 GMT -5
I agree with Tas. This is Warriors we are talking about, not My Little Pony. Hailstar nearly drowned a deputy for trying to rescue his stolen kits. Fireheart chased an innocent Whitethroat to the thunderpath on which he was hit by a car. Russetfur watched as Berrykit screamed in pain and did nothing to help him. I can list dozens or more cats that have done very questionable and morally wrong things- but they ain’t all goin to hell. That’s now how Warriors works. Everyone makes mistakes. A lot of them emotionally harm each other. Some of them are fatal. And while that’s not ok, it’s everywhere- and no warrior can escape such sins and at the end of the day they can only be redeemed so far.
That’s why some- and actually, a lot- of bad cats end up in StarClan- because “bad” is relative and up to interpretation in that world. A lot of what we see as wrong-doing is acceptable or even encouraged. Things might have gotten better over time but it’s still a harsh world.
So I’d recommend not screaming “to the dark forest they go” every time someone does something horrible. Cause before you know it you’re sending everyone there.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2018 3:46:57 GMT -5
Yes, he should of defended that kits, but everyone is guilty of not doing that. Ravenwing shouldn't be punished for exposing someone for their crimes, it's not against the Warrior or Medicine cat code. As a Medicine cat he's meant to tell his leader about Omens. He shouldn't be punished for Mapleshade's, Appledusk's or Oakstar's crimes. His actions at only one in many factors that caused the kits' deaths, and it was indirect and unintentional. Many people are reasonable for the kits' deaths. And I'll keep on saying it: It's unfair signal Ravenwing out, when everyone else failed to defend the kits, even other ranking cat Beetail didn't do anything either. If he goes to the Dark Forest, then everyone goes down with him. Also, your Yellowfang example doesn't work. She was exiled becuase they thought she killed two kits, she was exiled for murder, not because she was just bad at her duties like Ravenwing is. Who I have to admit, you have rather overly high expectations for; who, if he doesn't meet them and can't protect the kits, that everyone else failed to protect, that were endangered by the leader/traitorous parents, not him, he instantly goes to the Dark Forest. I think debate gone on long enough and we now starting to repeat things, so I'll end it here. So let's just mutually agree that we've failed to change each other's options. Let's agree to disagree. To be honest, it's not fair of you to tell me that my argument doesn't work and then shut the discussion down. I personally believe it does; bad medicine bad who doesn't follow the code? Bye. Another example could be Brokenstar. He never murdered the kits he kidnapped per say, but he was responsible for their deaths. He forced them to train too young, and pitted them against fully grown warriors and apprentices. He was a bad leader who broke the code, was responsible for the death of kits, and was sent to the Dark Forest. Was Brokenstar worse? Of course. But they're both guilty of similar crimes--aid in the death of the innocent. Ravenwing to me is the same way. He didn't follow the code of a medicine cat. He could have lied (just as countless other medicine cats have lied for the good of their clans) for the kits sake but he didn't. That makes him a bad medicine cat, a breaker of his code, and a cat with a paw in the death of three innocent kits, and is thus deserving of the Dark Forest. Yes, yes, I do I said this debate was over- but I literally just thought of some counter-argument to this. The Medicine cat code/Warrior Code is not the end all, when it comes to deciding when a cat should go to the Dark Forest or Starclan. In fact, the Medicine cat code only really addresses about physical healing, how they can't have kits/mates and talking with Starclan. It even mentions, 'interpreting', which suggests it's up to the Medicine cat themselves is expected to come to their own personal decision. The code never goes into how a Medicine cat should be involved in Clan polities, which is what this whole situation is. Dealing with a traitor and half-clan kits. Many cats have broken their respected codes without going to the Dark Forest, Russetfur, Oakfur, Rowanclaw and Cedarheart watched Berrykit get caught in the foxtrap, where he could of bleed to death. Yet all of those cats, including Russetfur a deputy and formerly Brokenstar's follower, is in Starclan. Greywing, from Code of the Clans, another Medicine cat like Ravenwing. I'd what she did was worse: She saw three Windclan kits were in clear danger while in the gorge river. A warrior was about to save them but Greywing flat out stopped them, claiming it was not their responsibility and of course, the three kits end up drowning. Yet, she suffered no consequences. The kits even visited her in a dream, not even angry, simply making her feel guilty by showing what the kits would of been if they grew up. Mudclaw, he failed in duties to protect half-clan cats as well, including two young apprentices not able to prevent them being held as half-starved prisoners and almost/were executed. If I get this straight, you argue: because Ravenwing is specifically a Medicine cat and he failed to protect kits, he deserves the Dark Forest. However, isn't Ravenwing trying to protect everyone else in the Clan by exposing a traitor? There was probably other kits and Queens in the Clan as well. Mapleshade had put her loyalty to one Riverclan that had murdered two of her clanmates over Thunderclan. She was untrustworthy and so a danger to the Clan as long as she reminded unexposed. For all Ravenwing knew; she could of leaked information, she could constantly trespass on Riverclan territory to see Appledusk, etc. all which could make the war even worse, putting innocent lives at risk including Apprentices, Elders and other Queens/kits. Ravenwing choose to protect the majority, 15+ vs. 1 and an unknown gamble with her kits. And like said before, Ravenwing didn't know how the Clan/Leader would react, many things could of happened: The kits were adopted by another Queen while Mapleshade is exiled, they're all simply kept an eye on, etc. However, the worst case scenario just happened to happen. Which is mostly up being unlucky on Ravenwing's part than anything, who couldn't predict how the Clan would react. Ravenwing shouldn't be sent to the Dark Forest because he wasn't willing to be a liar/traitor himself for the sake of protecting one traitor. Starclan doesn't approve of Medicine cats lying, Yellowfang was in a forbidden relationship, and Starclan punished her by making Brokenstar evil. Similar Leafpool and Jayfeather's blindness, also said to be caused by Starclan. When Leafpool was also exposed as a liar, she was forced to leave the Medicine cat position. And since Ravenwing came from a much stricter, he would of risked exile as the only Medicine cat, which would of put the Clan in danger. Faking Omen/Using his Medicine cat sister is also one of the reasons Hawkfrost is also in the Dark Forest. Brokenstar is not a good comparison to Ravenwing, their situation are far too different. The danger Brokenstar put his underaged apprentices in was extremely clear, you send a kit into battle or rough training, they're going to die. While for Ravenwing, he exposed a traitor and kits being half-clan. Ok, so what then? They could just as easily been allowed to stay in camp as well as exile. And even then, just becuase they're in exile doesn't anatomically mean they're going to die. Many loners/rouges raise kits alone without the protection of Clanmates or camp. The kits' deaths were an accident caused by unpredictable and mother nature. Also, Mapleshade just being reckless/foolish, by making them swim in a flood, while they were tired and it was raining, which Ravenwing or anyone for that matter, couldn't of seen coming. A better comparison is Fireheart exposing Tigerclaw, who by that point had a similar track record to Appledusk, both toms having 2 murder victims. At the time, Tigerclaw also had young kits. So similar to Fireheart to Ravenwing, he had to choose whether expose Tigerclaw but have unseen consequences for his kin/friends, including young kits. Or remain silent, allowing Tigerclaw to continue to get away with his crimes and continue to be a danger, but it wouldn't put his kits in danger. The only difference is that Fireheart was lucky to have a reasonable leader at the time. Yet, it was all set in place to have a repeat event, a kit that looks identical to the murder (Petalkit = Appledusk, Bramblekit = Tigerclaw) and their father murdered someone close to the leader. (Redtail/herself = Bluestar, Birchface = Oakstar). Bluestar could of easily lashed at Tigerclaw's kits, just like Oakstar did. It's not up to the accuser (Ravenwing/Fireheart), it's up the leader/judge, Oakstar and Bluestar, to be reasonable in their verdicts. And though Bramblekit and Tawnykit weren't exiled, they were still put in danger from Fireheart exposing their father as a traitor/murderer, with cats not trusting them and judging them, which eventually caused Tawnypaw to defect to Shadowclan. The only difference between those cases, is that Ravenwing was unlucky and got stuck with a terrible leader while Fireheart got a decent one.
|
|
|
Post by Tas on Apr 10, 2018 5:42:02 GMT -5
I say Dark Forest for all of them Why? There's an excellent debate going on right now about why that wouldn't be a good idea. Care to join in? Or maybe you're being sarcastic.
|
|
|
Post by suicunetobigaara on Apr 10, 2018 7:15:36 GMT -5
While I think Oakstar made the wrong decision regarding the safety of young kits, I don't believe he should go to the Dark Forest. I don't think anyone but Mapleshade deserves The Dark Forest, although I do see Mapleshade being in the Dark Forest as a bit of a stretch due to her mental health.
Mapleshade broke the code, so Oakstar did what he believed was right (even though it was his duty to keep those kits safe according to the code). Ravenwing was just doing his job, especially after he had a dream about the kits meaning the secret was significant. Frecklewish was harsh, but I think she didn't mean to just walk away when the kits were drowning. It's not like she could swim and she saw a Riverclan patrol, not to mention I don't think Frecklewish could reach them in time anyway. Bloomheart was fine, and hurt and angered by Mapleshade's betrayal, and Rabbitfur was just a gossipy elder. Both were harsh, but they weren't involved in the kits deaths. Reedshine wasn't nice but again, wasn't involved in the kits deaths, especially since she didn't know of their existence until after the fact. Appledusk is a huge jerk, but he didn't kill the kits either.
|
|
|
Post by streamflower on Apr 10, 2018 10:32:42 GMT -5
To be honest, it's not fair of you to tell me that my argument doesn't work and then shut the discussion down. I personally believe it does; bad medicine bad who doesn't follow the code? Bye. Another example could be Brokenstar. He never murdered the kits he kidnapped per say, but he was responsible for their deaths. He forced them to train too young, and pitted them against fully grown warriors and apprentices. He was a bad leader who broke the code, was responsible for the death of kits, and was sent to the Dark Forest. Was Brokenstar worse? Of course. But they're both guilty of similar crimes--aid in the death of the innocent. Ravenwing to me is the same way. He didn't follow the code of a medicine cat. He could have lied (just as countless other medicine cats have lied for the good of their clans) for the kits sake but he didn't. That makes him a bad medicine cat, a breaker of his code, and a cat with a paw in the death of three innocent kits, and is thus deserving of the Dark Forest. Yes, yes, I do I said this debate was over- but I literally just thought of some counter-argument to this. The Medicine cat code/Warrior Code is not the end all, when it comes to deciding when a cat should go to the Dark Forest or Starclan. In fact, the Medicine cat code only really addresses about physical healing, how they can't have kits/mates and talking with Starclan. It even mentions, 'interpreting', which suggests it's up to the Medicine cat themselves is expected to come to their own personal decision. The code never goes into how a Medicine cat should be involved in Clan polities, which is what this whole situation is. Dealing with a traitor and half-clan kits. Many cats have broken their respected codes without going to the Dark Forest, Russetfur, Oakfur, Rowanclaw and Cedarheart watched Berrykit get caught in the foxtrap, where he could of bleed to death. Yet all of those cats, including Russetfur a deputy and formerly Brokenstar's follower, is in Starclan. Greywing, from Code of the Clans, another Medicine cat like Ravenwing. I'd what she did was worse: She saw three Windclan kits were in clear danger while in the gorge river. A warrior was about to save them but Greywing flat out stopped them, claiming it was not their responsibility and of course, the three kits end up drowning. Yet, she suffered no consequences. The kits even visited her in a dream, not even angry, simply making her feel guilty by showing what the kits would of been if they grew up. Mudclaw, he failed in duties to protect half-clan cats as well, including two young apprentices not able to prevent them being held as half-starved prisoners and almost/were executed. If I get this straight, you argue: because Ravenwing is specifically a Medicine cat and he failed to protect kits, he deserves the Dark Forest. However, isn't Ravenwing trying to protect everyone else in the Clan by exposing a traitor? There was probably other kits and Queens in the Clan as well. Mapleshade had put her loyalty to one Riverclan that had murdered two of her clanmates over Thunderclan. She was untrustworthy and so a danger to the Clan as long as she reminded unexposed. For all Ravenwing knew; she could of leaked information, she could constantly trespass on Riverclan territory to see Appledusk, etc. all which could make the war even worse, putting innocent lives at risk including Apprentices, Elders and other Queens/kits. Ravenwing choose to protect the majority, 15+ vs. 1 and an unknown gamble with her kits. And like said before, Ravenwing didn't know how the Clan/Leader would react, many things could of happened: The kits were adopted by another Queen while Mapleshade is exiled, they're all simply kept an eye on, etc. However, the worst case scenario just happened to happen. Which is mostly up being unlucky on Ravenwing's part than anything, who couldn't predict how the Clan would react. Ravenwing shouldn't be sent to the Dark Forest because he wasn't willing to be a liar/traitor himself for the sake of protecting one traitor. Starclan doesn't approve of Medicine cats lying, Yellowfang was in a forbidden relationship, and Starclan punished her by making Brokenstar evil. Similar Leafpool and Jayfeather's blindness, also said to be caused by Starclan. When Leafpool was also exposed as a liar, she was forced to leave the Medicine cat position. And since Ravenwing came from a much stricter, he would of risked exile as the only Medicine cat, which would of put the Clan in danger. Faking Omen/Using his Medicine cat sister is also one of the reasons Hawkfrost is also in the Dark Forest. Brokenstar is not a good comparison to Ravenwing, their situation are far too different. The danger Brokenstar put his underaged apprentices in was extremely clear, you send a kit into battle or rough training, they're going to die. While for Ravenwing, he exposed a traitor and kits being half-clan. Ok, so what then? They could just as easily been allowed to stay in camp as well as exile. And even then, just becuase they're in exile doesn't anatomically mean they're going to die. Many loners/rouges raise kits alone without the protection of Clanmates or camp. The kits' deaths were an accident caused by unpredictable and mother nature. Also, Mapleshade just being reckless/foolish, by making them swim in a flood, while they were tired and it was raining, which Ravenwing or anyone for that matter, couldn't of seen coming. A better comparison is Fireheart exposing Tigerclaw, who by that point had a similar track record to Appledusk, both toms having 2 murder victims. At the time, Tigerclaw also had young kits. So similar to Fireheart to Ravenwing, he had to choose whether expose Tigerclaw but have unseen consequences for his kin/friends, including young kits. Or remain silent, allowing Tigerclaw to continue to get away with his crimes and continue to be a danger, but it wouldn't put his kits in danger. The only difference is that Fireheart was lucky to have a reasonable leader at the time. Yet, it was all set in place to have a repeat event, a kit that looks identical to the murder (Petalkit = Appledusk, Bramblekit = Tigerclaw) and their father murdered someone close to the leader. (Redtail/herself = Bluestar, Birchface = Oakstar). Bluestar could of easily lashed at Tigerclaw's kits, just like Oakstar did. It's not up to the accuser (Ravenwing/Fireheart), it's up the leader/judge, Oakstar and Bluestar, to be reasonable in their verdicts. And though Bramblekit and Tawnykit weren't exiled, they were still put in danger from Fireheart exposing their father as a traitor/murderer, with cats not trusting them and judging them, which eventually caused Tawnypaw to defect to Shadowclan. The only difference between those cases, is that Ravenwing was unlucky and got stuck with a terrible leader while Fireheart got a decent one. I am going to (unsurprisingly) disagree. The thing is, the medicine cat code basically tells medicine cats to stay out of clan politics. Ravenwing does the absolute opposite of that and jumps right into clan politics anyway, abandoning his code and putting three innocent lives in danger. The difference here is that I do not believe Oakstar--or even Ravenwing--acted out in the best interests of their clan. I believe that a majority of their reasoning was emotional, especially Oakstar. Leaders are supposed to be level headed, despite their emotions, and they are supposed to use that level head to best protect their clan. I don't understand how three tiny kits are a threat to Oakstar, especially if they are continually raised in Thunderclan without prejudice. Ravenwing also (in my opinion) acted out in prideful emotion and made the wrong choice. Yes, it was his choice based on his code and his beliefs, but he was knowingly risking the lives of the kits. That is where the issue lies. Both Oakstar and Ravenwing were perfectly happy to let a young queen and her three babies go out into the forest on their own due to prejudices of their own emotions. If Mapleshade had mated with a Windclan cat, or even a Shadowclan cat, do you think there would have been different consequences? I think so. I think the only reason Oakstar was such a jerk about everything was because it was Appledusk/a riverclan cat, not because she mated with someone outside of Thunderclan. While I get the idea that "Oh the clans were stricter with the code," in this case it seems to just be "They were mad she mated with someone from a clan they were feuding with at the time." Also, with Graywing -- I do not agree with her choice, however--those kits were not Windclan. They were not theirs to raise. While I do blame her for their deaths, they were not her responsibility but the responsibility of the clan. In thunderclan, Mapleshade's three kits would have been the responsibility of Thunderclan, yet Oakstar made the decision to throw them out. Despite Ravenwing most likely knowing Graywing's story, and most likely knowing that the kits would be killed, he failed to abandon his prejudice and the kits ended up dying. And yes, Brokenstar knowingly sent kits into clear danger. Oakstar also sent kits knowingly into danger. While one threat seems more immediate than the others, you can't deny that Oakstar didn't know that the kits would most likely get hurt or killed in some way. I think you're Fireheart being leader point isn't really the same. Tigerclaw betrayed the clan, yes, but Goldenflower was still a loyal warrior. Bluestar didn't lash out at the kits, but she DID lash out at the entire clan. She never picked one cat specifically and she only exiled tigerclaw for his actions. I don't think she even necessarily connected Tigerclaw with his children all that much (except when Fireheart offered to mentor Bramblekit, and Bluestar said something like "Oh a traitor training the son of a traitor, cool." I wanna make this clear - I do believe that Mapleshade deserves the Dark Forest. But I also believe that Ravenwing and Oakstar do too. They acted irrationally and cost cats their lives--especially the innocent. But I'm also in the camp that believes Ashfur deserves the Dark Forest too, and he's in Starclan. I'm not trying to say that they're likely in the Dark Forest, I'm just saying that they deserve it. I think anyone who has children in their care and then makes direct decisions that lead to their death, full well knowing that those decisions can lead to their direct death, deserve the Dark Forest.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2018 11:20:22 GMT -5
No one deserves the Dark Forest, not even Ravenwing, who was only doing his job. Not saying it was right, not saying he handled it right, not saying he's perfect either -- but he doesn't deserve the Dark Forest.
And why is Reedshine put for the option as going to the Dark Forest? All she said to Mapleshade was to go away. She doesn't deserve it, in fact she's as much of a victim to Mapleshade when Appledusk cheated on her. She wailed in pain in the Novella.
Perchpaw doesn't deserve it for simply defending his mentor.
Appledusk... no. He's a punk, but he loves his Clan. And this is coming from someone who doesn't even like the guy.
Oakstar... unsure. He wanted to raise Mapleshade's kits to kill Appledusk, full of hatred and vengeance... while he was grieving, it doesn't sound like he was a very nice tom. Maybe he's the only one who truly does deserve the Dark Forest. A Clan leader wanting revenge isn't a good leader. Clan leaders should make peace, not raise kits by poisoning hatred in their minds for a single RiverClan warrior.
Frecklewish... no... just... no. Whatever anyone says, she was having some sort of problem. She lost her brother, and Mapleshade used him, giving her false hope. Her reaction was natural. She didn't even want the kits to die, and regretted it. I... can't believe some people still say she deserves the Dark Forest.
But, the only one who truly deserves the Dark Forest, is Mapleshade. She has killed 3 cats, nearly attacked a pregnant defenseless queen out of jealousy and possessiveness (cause she couldn't let Appledusk go), and only thought of herself. Yeah. I'm sorry, but I don't feel bad for her after trying to attack a pregnant queen. She's lost my sympathy for her the moment she attacked the innocent Reedshine.
I don't wanna debate with anyone on here so I'll end it at that. Not in the mood, just wanted to put in my two cents.
|
|