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Post by nem on Dec 1, 2016 7:53:25 GMT -5
Daisy had demonic red eyes1!1!1# She does!1!1!
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Dec 1, 2016 7:55:53 GMT -5
I don't think so. I mean, Daisy has done a lot for the Clan by being like a second mother to kits and it usually doesn't take very long for a cat to become a queen anyway. And as seen in Bramblestar's Storm, she helps out around camp and puts cats in their place when they're acting or saying something mouse-brained, like what she did with Spiderleg and Smokey and was also mentioned to have gone hunting at one point in TAQ.
She's not the best fighter, but did as well as she could when it came to the Great Battle and the other cats respect her too. She also showed the most worry for Poppyfrost when the tortoiseshell was feeling depressed in The Fourth Apprentice, was put her in charge of watching the queens and elders when the fire happened in Fading Echoes, and she even swore to protect Sorreltail when WindClan was going to attack in The Forgotten Warrior.
As for how she treated Brightheart, she only reacted negatively towards her once and that was when they first met. Daisy, clearly having been sheltered, would of course be shocked. Princess reacted similarly, with the only difference is that she was actually warned beforehand.
Besides, it's not like the other two cats involved were innocent either—though Cloudtail was only trying to help Daisy, he was really dense when it came to how she and Brightheart were feeling, and Brightheart was just really cold towards the both of them without really talking things out with them sooner. In fact, Daisy had to do all the apologizing right after she returned and Cloudtail and Brightheart only made amends thanks to Leafpool giving him a little nudge.
Point is, I don't think Daisy deserves the hate she gets.
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Post by whiteflight on Dec 1, 2016 9:25:17 GMT -5
I understand why people would hate Daisy for her reaction to Brighthearts face, but really that reaction is pretty true to most people, Daisy didn't know what happened to her and so she was saying all those things. Like Moth said even princess acted that way but she was warn about it. My cousins also acted the same way when they saw her on the ultimate guide, they called her ugly and asked me what happened to her and once I told them they felt bad. Plus like everyone else she's like a mother to almost everyone at the camp. She also go really useful later on in the books since she got use to the clan life and helped with a lot of stuff. Just because she sits and eats most of the time doesn't mean she's useless.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Dec 1, 2016 11:45:45 GMT -5
Also, did anyone remember when she was being an utter bad*** and kicking butt during the Dark Forest invasion, back to back with Brightheart of all cats? I'm sorry, but hell hath no fury like a ThunderClan Queen.
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Post by Kibui on Dec 1, 2016 14:17:34 GMT -5
Yes she does imo. Everything she does, normal nursery-tanks and apprentices can do too - except better because they can actually hunt and fight properly so they don't become a burden to the clan when there are no kits around
And to the ones that want to argue now that she can still helps teaching the young cats important values: that's what the elders, senior warriors and mentors are for.
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Post by 𝕡𝕖𝕡𝕡𝕖𝕣𝕞𝕚𝕟𝕥 on Dec 1, 2016 15:10:39 GMT -5
As a former Daisy hater, I can see where these people are coming from. However, she has proven herself to be so much more than that. For instance, she was strong enough to stand up for herself and her family. She even fought in the battle in TLH.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Dec 1, 2016 19:54:08 GMT -5
Yes she does imo. Everything she does, normal nursery-tanks and apprentices can do too - except better because they can actually hunt and fight properly so they don't become a burden to the clan when there are no kits around And to the ones that want to argue now that she can still helps teaching the young cats important values: that's what the elders, senior warriors and mentors are for. Daisy's not a burden to the Clan, though. She has learned to try and fight, she just wasn't very good at it compared to the others, yet fought fiercely when the Great Battle came, was mentioned to have gone hunting in TAQ, and helps out around camp when there are no kits around, which is actually rare. In fact, the only times where there were no queens or kits in the nursery at all when it comes to modern ThunderClan within the books was in Bramblestar's Storm and now Thunder and Shadow since Lilyheart's kits are now apprentices.
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Post by Kibui on Dec 1, 2016 21:21:46 GMT -5
Yes she does imo. Everything she does, normal nursery-tanks and apprentices can do too - except better because they can actually hunt and fight properly so they don't become a burden to the clan when there are no kits around And to the ones that want to argue now that she can still helps teaching the young cats important values: that's what the elders, senior warriors and mentors are for. Daisy's not a burden to the Clan, though. She has learned to try and fight, she just wasn't very good at it compared to the others, yet fought fiercely when the Great Battle came, was mentioned to have gone hunting in TAQ, and helps out around camp when there are no kits around, which is actually rare. In fact, the only times where there were no queens or kits in the nursery at all when it comes to modern ThunderClan within the books was in Bramblestar's Storm and now Thunder and Shadow since Lilyheart's kits are now apprentices. Well, of course she fought in the DF battle, it's not like she had a choice. After all, it would be kind of weird for a cat to just stand there doing nothing while it's being clawed and bitten, don't you think? As far as TAQ goes, that was the first and at this point only time it was mentioned she ever went hunting - and if I may point out we don't even know how successful she was or if she even caught anything at all - after all we're talking about Daisy, a cat who can't even catch anything in greenleaf and who had no interest in learning to hunt and fight at all
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Post by wheeledwarrior on Dec 2, 2016 0:12:29 GMT -5
I don't hate her per se, but if you like what she did was odd… I mean, the cats live in a world where everyone is expected to hunt and fight, yet Daisy refuses to either in most cases… I understand she's good at raising kits, but there are others for that…
I have the same complaint with Purdy, but he at least has an excuse because he is very old by the time he joins the Clans… Also, he is implied to have been looking after himself for a while when the traveling cats first meet him, so he's not completely incapable of doing anything…
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Dec 2, 2016 4:56:29 GMT -5
Daisy's not a burden to the Clan, though. She has learned to try and fight, she just wasn't very good at it compared to the others, yet fought fiercely when the Great Battle came, was mentioned to have gone hunting in TAQ, and helps out around camp when there are no kits around, which is actually rare. In fact, the only times where there were no queens or kits in the nursery at all when it comes to modern ThunderClan within the books was in Bramblestar's Storm and now Thunder and Shadow since Lilyheart's kits are now apprentices. Well, of course she fought in the DF battle, it's not like she had a choice. After all, it would be kind of weird for a cat to just stand there doing nothing while it's being clawed and bitten, don't you think? As far as TAQ goes, that was the first and at this point only time it was mentioned she ever went hunting - and if I may point out we don't even know how successful she was or if she even caught anything at all - after all we're talking about Daisy, a cat who can't even catch anything in greenleaf and who had no interest in learning to hunt and fight at allActually, clarification here, it's not that she didn't have interest in it, it's that she wasn't used to hunting for herself, and was unable to have sharpened skills for it. This is due to how she used to live in the farm, when she was always cared for, because she was with kit. Hunting, fighting, and having kits is literally NOT for every cat. And just because they can't do any of them, or one of them, doesn't make them useless. Look at Briarlight, I don't even care for her, yet she's always willing to help out in Jayfeather's den, despite being unable to hunt, fight, or even have kits. Is she, in you opinion, useless? Daisy lacked the skill to fight and hunt, but things have changed, and she has developed as a character. She is a very helpful character as well, Queens deserve the most respect in the clan right next to the leader and deputy, because they carry the future of the clan, a thriving clan depends on kits. It's Daisy who cares for young first time queens, even their kits, and it's because of her they're even able to stay calm, relieved, they can even go out for walks while she watches their kits. She comforts them, supports them, gives them advice, and when push came to shove, she protects them. Daisy has more than enough, pulled her weight, at this point in the story, so no, she doesn't deserve all the mess she still gets from the fandom. It's ridiculous. It's like hating a seed for being a seed, even when the seed has already turned into a flower. It's unreasonable. But you have a right to your opinion, nonetheless.
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Post by pastelpills on Dec 2, 2016 6:34:12 GMT -5
Daisy's not a burden to the Clan, though. She has learned to try and fight, she just wasn't very good at it compared to the others, yet fought fiercely when the Great Battle came, was mentioned to have gone hunting in TAQ, and helps out around camp when there are no kits around, which is actually rare. In fact, the only times where there were no queens or kits in the nursery at all when it comes to modern ThunderClan within the books was in Bramblestar's Storm and now Thunder and Shadow since Lilyheart's kits are now apprentices. Well, of course she fought in the DF battle, it's not like she had a choice. After all, it would be kind of weird for a cat to just stand there doing nothing while it's being clawed and bitten, don't you think? As far as TAQ goes, that was the first and at this point only time it was mentioned she ever went hunting - and if I may point out we don't even know how successful she was or if she even caught anything at all - after all we're talking about Daisy, a cat who can't even catch anything in greenleaf and who had no interest in learning to hunt and fight at allWhat about Alderpaw? Alderpaw can't hunt and fight either. "But he is a medicine cat! That's important!" Maybe, but not needed. There are two med cats already. So by your logic, Alderpaw is also a burden to ThunderClan. Not only that, but I'd bet 5 dollars that if Daisy was clanborn, there'd be no issue with you.
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Post by Kibui on Dec 2, 2016 6:52:25 GMT -5
Actually, clarification here, it's not that she didn't have interest in it, it's that she wasn't used to hunting for herself, and was unable to have sharpened skills for it. This is due to how she used to live in the farm, when she was always cared for, because she was with kit. Hunting, fighting, and having kits is literally NOT for every cat. And just because they can't do any of them, or one of them, doesn't make them useless. Look at Briarlight, I don't even care for her, yet she's always willing to help out in Jayfeather's den, despite being unable to hunt, fight, or even have kits. Is she, in you opinion, useless? Daisy lacked the skill to fight and hunt, but things have changed, and she has developed as a character. She is a very helpful character as well, Queens deserve the most respect in the clan right next to the leader and deputy, because they carry the future of the clan, a thriving clan depends on kits. It's Daisy who cares for young first time queens, even their kits, and it's because of her they're even able to stay calm, relieved, they can even go out for walks while she watches their kits. She comforts them, supports them, gives them advice, and when push came to shove, she protects them. Daisy has more than enough, pulled her weight, at this point in the story, so no, she doesn't deserve all the mess she still gets from the fandom. It's ridiculous. It's like hating a seed for being a seed, even when the seed has already turned into a flower. It's unreasonable. But you have a right to your opinion, nonetheless. This. With the sentence I bolded, you basically said yourself why Daisy shouldn't be in the Clan. Or why she at least should have properly tried to learn how to hunt and fight. I'm sorry but NP makes pretty clear that she, indeed, doesn't have interest in hunting and fighting and in all subsequent books. The only exception being maybe The Last Hope but even then, (I believe it was) Lionblaze just practiced most basic, instinctual moves. It's not about her being good or bad at the tasks of a clan cat. It's about her attitude, that she has the other Clan members to protect and feed her while she does the oh so very vital task of caring for the young (which again the normal nursery tanks are way better for). In contrast to Daisy, Briarlight is physically unable to care for a clan like healthy warrior can, unlike Daisy who chose not to learn the things she would have needed to in order to be vital to the clan, even though she should if she wants the Clan to care for her in return. And when it comes to offering emotional support, I can only repeat what I've said in my previous posts: That's what the other queens and family members or even the former queen-turned-elders (if available) are for. In short, it just annoys me that the books paint her as a useful cat who supposedly contributes a lot to the clan, when in reality she's just a mooch that uses "caring for the kits" as an excuse - (even if she's not doing that purposely) - to stay in a group of cats with a way of life that obviously doesn't suit her. Alderpaw can't hunt and fight either. "But he is a medicine cat! That's important!" Maybe, but not needed. There are two med cats already. So by your logic, Alderpaw is also a burden to ThunderClan. Not only that, but I'd bet 5 dollars that if Daisy was clanborn, there'd be no issue with you. I can only repeat what I said to Briarlight: it's more about the attitude towards the daily clan tasks than the success. On a side note, I would have been happier if Alderheart stayed a warrior apprentice because it would make for an awesome arc about how you will eventually get better at things by trying over and over again - but that's another topic. By my logic, only cats that don't want to participate in the normal clan life are a burden. I don't see cats that actually try to fit into the clan as a burden. Would I have an issue with Daisy if she were clanborn? Probably not, but that's only because she also probably would be aware of the importance of feeding and protecting your clan. If that weren't the case, I'd still hate her - clanborn or not To conclude this, if Daisy would get asked about her task in the clan I'd imagine this: Daisy: I'll go care for the young now Warrior: But there are no nursing queens or kits right now. Daisy: Then I'll just go help the apprentices with cleaning out the bedding and such so that they can train with their mentors Warrior: But then how are we going to punish an apprentice's misbehaviour? Or teach them the importance of respecting the more experienced if they never have to clean the bedding all by themselves? Daisy: Well, uh...
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Dec 2, 2016 15:10:11 GMT -5
Did you ignore the "And just because they can't do any of them, or one of them, doesn't make them useless" part? Also the sentence before was in a GENERAL way of speaking, not specifically Daisy. How is caring for kits an excuse? Even when there aren't kits in the clan, which is really rare, Daisy is seen helping out around camp, and had started hunting, going on patrols, and now learned to fight.
Like I said before, it's like you're hating a seed, for being a seed, even though that very seed has already turned into a flower. Like??
You keep referring to "pre-developed" Daisy.
Also Daisy isn't a mooch, if anything the Clan is the one using her, begging for her to stay because they needed kits in the clan.
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Post by Hazeltailll on Dec 2, 2016 15:46:40 GMT -5
I really like her. A lot of people say that she does nothing for the Clan, but she and Ferncloud help with all the kits, and that's a pretty important job.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2016 17:20:32 GMT -5
I just dislike her. Even when she's proven to be somewhat useful, I just have never liked her.
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Post by Kibui on Dec 2, 2016 17:26:52 GMT -5
Did you ignore the "And just because they can't do any of them, or one of them, doesn't make them useless" part? Also the sentence before was in a GENERAL way of speaking, not specifically Daisy. How is caring for kits an excuse? Even when there aren't kits in the clan, which is really rare, Daisy is seen helping out around camp, and had started hunting, going on patrols, and now learned to fight. Like I said before, it's like you're hating a seed, for being a seed, even though that very seed has already turned into a flower. Like?? You keep referring to "pre-developed" Daisy. Also Daisy isn't a mooch, if anything the Clan is the one using her, begging for her to stay because they needed kits in the clan. The only real development that I see in her is that at least she doesn't seem to have her hysterical fits anymore (and that she takes way to much pride in her supposed use to the Clan) Could you please cite where it states that she took part in a hunting or border patrol? Or where she volunteerly joined in battle training? I find that extremely hard to belief without proof (note: I am aware of the mention in AVoS where it states she went hunting but that was neither a border nor hunting patrol and I'm still sceptical if that wasn't just a continuity mistake by the Erins but hey that could be just me) So, sorry but I just don't see her development as that big that I can say she isn't a mooch anymore. Imo she still is because she never participated in the full Clan life at any point in her life unlike other queens and I think I've already elaborated enough on why I think caring for the kits isn't as much of a useful thing but more of an excuse for her to stay in the clan (whether that would be from her perspective, that of other ThunderClan members or as a justification from the authors). If I'd keep referring to the pre-"developed" Daisy then I'd have also minded her hysterical behaviour in times of danger which she had in NP and I believe in PoS too, is what I'm trying to say
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2016 17:39:32 GMT -5
At least the other permanent queens had warrior training, whereas Daisy has had very little. /just my two cents
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2016 19:26:27 GMT -5
No. Daisy is a good cat
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Dec 2, 2016 21:34:34 GMT -5
Did you ignore the "And just because they can't do any of them, or one of them, doesn't make them useless" part? Also the sentence before was in a GENERAL way of speaking, not specifically Daisy. How is caring for kits an excuse? Even when there aren't kits in the clan, which is really rare, Daisy is seen helping out around camp, and had started hunting, going on patrols, and now learned to fight. Like I said before, it's like you're hating a seed, for being a seed, even though that very seed has already turned into a flower. Like?? You keep referring to "pre-developed" Daisy. Also Daisy isn't a mooch, if anything the Clan is the one using her, begging for her to stay because they needed kits in the clan. The only real development that I see in her is that at least she doesn't seem to have her hysterical fits anymore (and that she takes way to much pride in her supposed use to the Clan) Could you please cite where it states that she took part in a hunting or border patrol? Or where she volunteerly joined in battle training? I find that extremely hard to belief without proof (note: I am aware of the mention in AVoS where it states she went hunting but that was neither a border nor hunting patrol and I'm still sceptical if that wasn't just a continuity mistake by the Erins but hey that could be just me) So, sorry but I just don't see her development as that big that I can say she isn't a mooch anymore. Imo she still is because she never participated in the full Clan life at any point in her life unlike other queens and I think I've already elaborated enough on why I think caring for the kits isn't as much of a useful thing but more of an excuse for her to stay in the clan (whether that would be from her perspective, that of other ThunderClan members or as a justification from the authors). If I'd keep referring to the pre-"developed" Daisy then I'd have also minded her hysterical behaviour in times of danger which she had in NP and I believe in PoS too, is what I'm trying to say If you're aware of it, then why ask? Daisy knows how to hunt, and has been mentioned to be hunting before. She knows how to fight, and is literally shown fighting for her life and her clanmates. What more do you need? Are you literally sizing her worth just by how much of a fighter and hunter she is, when she's more of a queen if anything? And what is wrong with her taking pride in herself? I rather she take pride then be a self-pitying loathing she-cat that complains all the time, like she used to be. It's call ed development. If you don't see it, that's your opinion, but it doesn't change what is canon, it's literally that simple. And again, how is not caring for kits not as "useful" just...wow....are you now also ignoring the fact that Queens have the most respect next to the leader and deputy. They care for their clans future, kits are important. And not it's not an excuse that she's a permanent Queen, the clan was the ones that wanted her, because they needed her and her kits. They were in desperate need for younger cats. Daisy is literally a late blooming character, who wasn't used to clan life, and eventually became accustomed to such. How is her worrying over her kits wrong? If she didn't I can already tell people would claim she's neglectful, abusive, etc, like they do with Graystripe since he's not around his kits much. Also what do you expect Daisy to do honestly? Just leave now that her kits are fully grown, and you deem her to be unuseful. Like totally, she's going to leave her kin behind, I doubt they wouldn't follow her either. Daisy has more than enough earned her way into ThunderClan, even if they were the ones that invited her in the first place. At least they had more patience toward her, and that paid off eventually. I'm quite curious if you're going to ridicule the other permanent Queens in ThunderClan as well. They had the skills to hunt and fight, but rarely did because they were always in the nursery. Are they useless too?
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Post by Kibui on Dec 3, 2016 8:58:58 GMT -5
Well given that you didn't offer any proof of where she joined battle training or hunting patrols I conclude that such a scene or mention never existed in the first place.
The whole "caring for kits is not useful thing" is literally just bad wording on my part, because I didn't want to elaborate again on the issue of other nursery tanks being better being way better for that job.
I would be happier, actually, if she had left the Clan and went back to the Horseplace after her kits had grown up. The bond she has with her kits obviously isn't any more stronger or weaker than your average Warriors family so really it would be no deal. Especially since she'd still be able to see her kits when they go to the Gathering.
Again, Daisy, imo, had in no way a kind of development that would deem her a useful cat to ThunderClan - I've already listed my reasons for that and why I think "caring for kits" is not a reason, and I'm tired of explaining them over and over again, so I won't go into detail about that now.
If she really had some kind of development that would show how she became a true Clan cat then it should have been something along the lines of Clovertail's development.
While Clovertail did become a nursery tank later on in the SkyClan books, in Firestar's Quest she joined the Clan mainly for protection - much like Daisy did at first. But unlike her she actually had the discernment to see that Clan life is also about protecting and feeding a Clan and not only about seeking protection or in Daisy's case caring solely about kits.
Let's also not forget what Firestar said to Clovertail after she agreed to join the patrols and traing sessions: "Think about your kits - they'll become warriors one day, and you could be a great example for them." - (Firestar's Quest, page 365) And before you argue that Daisy said, she isn't much use in hunting or fighting: That's exactly what Clovertail said, too, yet she still agreed to join.
And if we apply the whole "being a great example" to Daisy how she is now, then she basically would be a role model that conveys: Hey kits, don't waste your time on training to be a warrior. You don't even have to make a vow to protect and defend your Clan, just come an stay at the nursery 24/7 and play with kits!
And lastly, as if I haven't explained that already in my very first post, other nursery tanks are more useful than Daisy because they can still slip into the role of normal warriors that can join hunting and border patrols in times of great need, because they actually had proper training.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2016 9:53:59 GMT -5
Daisy is fine in my opinion.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Dec 3, 2016 10:37:34 GMT -5
Not being shown doing battle training does not negate that she learned how to fight. Keep in mind that she is a background character, and we won't see her 24/7 like a main character.
There literally is no other cat that can do a better job at this role, in the clan, than Daisy, the only other cat that was even questionable was Ferncloud, and she'd dead.
So you complain about her fretting and caring about her kits but now you're saying that her relationship with them is shallow or average at best? Make up your mind. It's bad writing for her to just get up and abandon her kits, even if they're fully grown, she's not a terrible mother like Sasha.
SkyClan =/= ThunderClan, actually any of the other four clans really, SkyClan literally live by their own set of rules compared to the other clans. They're not even comparable, not yet at least.
And how is Daisy not a great example to her kits??? The only one that thinks this is literally you, meanwhile the actual cats in the actual story think otherwise and appreciate Daisy for that cat she is and everything she's done. You're just trying to degrade her character because of your obscure sighting of her.
Daisy is literally shown to be able to go on hunting patrols, and patrols in general, she can fight, and yet you're still complaining just because we don't her see her develop like a main character, smh.
Honestly its like we're going in circles, and all you're trying to do is look for ridiculous reasons to hate a permanent queen, so I'm done here.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Dec 3, 2016 11:41:09 GMT -5
Another thing I'd like to add is that Daisy left the barn not just to protect her kits, but also because she wanted someone to care for her the way her own former mate Smokey seemed to care more for Floss than her. And Daisy did leave the Clan not just because of the Brightheart thing, but also partially because of all the recent events that had led up to that point, like the badgers and the fox trap incident. She didn't even want to go back until Smokey convinced her to go, and she was even hurt by this since she thought he wanted her to stay. And at the time, it seemed as though most of the cats were more concerned for Daisy's kits rather than Daisy herself, with her only friends seeming to be Sorreltail, Ferncloud, and Cloudtail—and even he seemed to be more concerned for the kits at one point.
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Post by Wicked Witch on Dec 3, 2016 12:27:59 GMT -5
she got to play a character with a lightsaber so i'm sure she's great at fighting. you don't think she's hiding her true talents out of modesty... or is she a fraud
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Post by moonmasksunfrost on Dec 3, 2016 13:18:56 GMT -5
@kabui What I'm getting form your posts is that you are of the mindset that as long as a cat has had battle/hunting training before becoming a "nursery tank," they're not useless. So in your opinion, someone like Ferncloud isn't useless, despite the fact that she hadn't used her skills in forever, except for in battle- the same battles that Daisy fought in, mind you. If you don't use something, you lose it, so it's unlikely that a cat such as Ferncloud or Clovertail would be able to "slip back into the role of warrior" as easily as another queen who only waited until her kits were apprenticed before returning to her old role. I apologize if that doesn't make sense, but I'm not quite following your logic either because it seems like the only reason you're not lumping a cat like Ferncloud or Clovertail in with Daisy is because they both had warrior training before having kits. Which doesn't quite make sense.
...yikes, it's been a while since I put together a point. I don't even know if this post is coherent, lol.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2016 14:07:51 GMT -5
I love Daisy.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2016 14:17:16 GMT -5
Did you ignore the "And just because they can't do any of them, or one of them, doesn't make them useless" part? Also the sentence before was in a GENERAL way of speaking, not specifically Daisy. How is caring for kits an excuse? Even when there aren't kits in the clan, which is really rare, Daisy is seen helping out around camp, and had started hunting, going on patrols, and now learned to fight. Like I said before, it's like you're hating a seed, for being a seed, even though that very seed has already turned into a flower. Like?? You keep referring to "pre-developed" Daisy. Also Daisy isn't a mooch, if anything the Clan is the one using her, begging for her to stay because they needed kits in the clan. The only real development that I see in her is that at least she doesn't seem to have her hysterical fits anymore (and that she takes way to much pride in her supposed use to the Clan) Could you please cite where it states that she took part in a hunting or border patrol? Or where she volunteerly joined in battle training? I find that extremely hard to belief without proof (note: I am aware of the mention in AVoS where it states she went hunting but that was neither a border nor hunting patrol and I'm still sceptical if that wasn't just a continuity mistake by the Erins but hey that could be just me) So, sorry but I just don't see her development as that big that I can say she isn't a mooch anymore. Imo she still is because she never participated in the full Clan life at any point in her life unlike other queens and I think I've already elaborated enough on why I think caring for the kits isn't as much of a useful thing but more of an excuse for her to stay in the clan (whether that would be from her perspective, that of other ThunderClan members or as a justification from the authors). If I'd keep referring to the pre-"developed" Daisy then I'd have also minded her hysterical behaviour in times of danger which she had in NP and I believe in PoS too, is what I'm trying to say When has Daisy ever shown to be prideful? If anything, she felt like she was getting in between Cloudtail and Brightheart. Daisy never really hunted but she DID fight cats. Daisy defeated a Dark Forest warrior during the Great Battle. Sometimes mothers need break from their kits. And in BrS it has been mentioned that Daisy raised Sorreltail's kits after she died. The three kits basically see Daisy as their mother. Daisy also helped take care of the Three. Daisy has developed a lot. She stopped whining and she raises kits who have lost their mother. She even went to a Gathering in BrS. She stood up for Brook and Millie when they kept their names. She understands Clan life now and she would defend her Clan, even at the cost of her own life, proven in TLH when she was defending her Clan from Dark Forest Warriors. She has developed, in fact she may be the ONLY background character who has developed the most.
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