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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2018 10:17:48 GMT -5
Scourge in fanfiction as some pseudo-bad guy who gets a free pass for troubled past and/or as being a sad boi.
Like mmmm no. The Erins literally wrote him in as some junk throwaway edgelord bad guy for the end of the first arc. His manga backstory was a complete afterthought and hardly a reason to write him in fanfiction as some deep character.
Now, if you're writing a fiction that say, tries to improve on his character backstory and still make sense. Sure, go for it. But a majority of fanfiction i used to read has him as some 'good' character who's only doing bad things because he's misunderstood.
Scourge from the books knows full well what he's doing, it's just revenge, and he's cruel on purpose just for the sake of being cruel and nothing more.
EDIT: (That being said, I still love Scourge anyway. So keep that in mind if you reply. I just like him as he is not as the fandom portrays him.)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2018 10:36:34 GMT -5
Firestar: people forget hes kind of an idiot. This. Noble and good as he might be, he doesn't really think about how very many of his actions have consequences. He was named FireHEART for a reason, and that reason lacks brains. |
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Mar 19, 2018 10:40:17 GMT -5
Firestar: people forget hes kind of an idiot. This. Noble and good as he might be, he doesn't really think about how very many of his actions have consequences. He was named FireHEART for a reason, and that reason lacks brains. I agree with this too. I love Firestar, but there were times where I wish I could just slap him. |
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Mar 19, 2018 10:41:10 GMT -5
Needletail: lets not pretend that her treatment of Violetshine was anything but a bad scene. And trauma is not an excuse. I like Needletail, and even I agree with this. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2018 10:42:53 GMT -5
Dovewing, but I don't wanna go into detail about her to avoid a debate. Cinderheart: People see her as a whiny hopeless romantic but I think she's just a really confused character. Turtle Tail: can't remember why, but people don't like her as well. I think it's because they think she led Tom on...? Unsure of others, but I'll think of them later I think they dislike her because she didn't handle Gray Wing's rejection that well. Some people forget not everybody is like Thrushpelt and won't handle heartbreak like an angel. I'm also certain I've seen people say she has led Tom on as well, but I could be wrong since it's been a while since I've seen a post about her. But still, she's not bad people make her out to be. She's just a hopeless romantic is all lol |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2018 11:30:12 GMT -5
Well, the mostly because in general, Riverclan is more laid back then Thunderclan. Also there was the whole added layer of Birchface/Flowerpaw for Mapleshade, with the leader also being the father of Birchface, making it much more personal. However Appledusk, his mate hadn't killed any of his Clanmates. He also sucked up to Darkstar; acknowledging he was wrong and seeked forgiveness. this isn't really true. A major theme of this book was misogyny. Mapleshade was given a worse punishhment than Appledusk even by Darkstar because she was the mother. When has sexism ever been a theme in the Books? Gender isn't important in Clan sercirty. Females and Males are expected to have the exact same reasonability. Both male and female cats do the exact same jobs, they can become Warriors, Deputies, Medicine cats and leaders. The only rank exclusive to a gender is a Queen, but not that's because of sexism, it because it's necessary for biological reasons, considering the mothers are the only ones that can give birth and provide milk. In the recent books, Fernsong even said he'll look after the kits once they're off Ivypool's milk. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2018 11:47:25 GMT -5
Characters I think are misrepresented:
Squirrelflight/Ashfur: People demonise her into some massive b itchy she-cat who manipulates/uses Ashfur just to get back at Brambleclaw. And in the break up scene, some like to portray it as: Squirrelflight either angry or salty at Ashfur while desperately begs and Squirrelflight is the one to walk way. Which isn't what happened at all.
In actual books, while they were 'breaking up', It's Ashfur who's getting angry, refusing to listen while Squirrelflight is desperately is trying to explain gently they're just friends. Even saying "I'm sorry" and "I never wanted to hurt him". Ashfur attampts to guilt rid her by saying Brambleclaw is the son of Tigerstar, his mother's killer. Despite Ashfur himself being close friends with Brambleclaw (Hypocrite) and Squirrelflight wasn't even born when his mother died, so had nothing to do with it. Then when Ashfur doesn't get exactly what he wants, he rejects Squirrelflight's offer and storms off in a pissy fit. After, it's Ashfur that ignores her, not the other way around.
Also Ashfur isn't this emo baby who cries himself to sleep every night. He's more incontrol then people give him credit for, he was able to serve as perfectly capable warrior for years, even training apprentices and no one suspected a thing. Also I've seen people throw put the 'insane' label on him. But until an official source confirms other wises, he's not.
A similar things happens with Scourge, where people thing he's obsessed with killing. When he's actually a lot more calm and calculating.
And just going to be blunt here, I hate when ship Murderer and their murder victims. This is why I sickens me when Squirrelflight and Ashfur are shipped, when he tried to kill her father and children. Another example is SnowtuftxHawkfrost- why would you ship Snowtuft with the guy who had his belly ripped open and almost murdered?
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 19, 2018 12:34:07 GMT -5
But why does Breezepelt alone have this privilege of getting the benefit of the doubt and possible redemption? At this rate you might as well say that Roach, Crow, or whoever else in Darktails merry band could also just be misunderstood and brainwashed. Why don’t we need their side of the story too? Or why stop there, maybe Bone had hidden depths and his death is a tragedy. Can you see why just going “what if” is an issue? If you do that then every cat sans protagonists can have this leveled at them, that their story is unknown ergo you can morph them how you please You're exactly right. And that is why I don't come off and say any character is garbage, except for Needletail, but that's a different story. Yes, I want to see as many POV's as I can before I ever say a character is definitive. I'd prefer both sides of a story and a POV. It's why I don't hate Ashfur. Why I don't hate Onestar, why I don't hate Lionblaze and Jayfeather even if their actions annoyed me. It was because we got their POV and an outsider's POV of them. I never said we don't need everyone else's POV. In fact, I'd prefer to have everyone's POV. And characters are written to be developed and changed if the author desires. At least with different POV or at least focusing on a character's clan rather than an outside clan, I can decide my definitie opinion on a cat. Breezepelt is interesting. That's all the reason I need to desire more characterization of him outside of a Thunderclan POV.\ Exactly! Another thing I'd like to bring up, is a pretty good example, Voltron and The Legend of Korra. Since we're talking about Studio Mir shows, haha. So I'm gonna post this under spoilers. As of S2 of the series we got a reveal about Zarkon's backstory. We find out why he turned into the way he did and why he did it. It was because of love. He enabled his wife's research, and both of them thought what they were doing was for the good of their people and technology of their races. Even if Alfor, his old friend disagreed, but he was right, in the end, his wife suffered greatly from the effects of their experiments on quintessence. So he tried to save her by exposing her to its pure energy, and both of them became pretty much space zombies. While their home planet was destroyed, reluctantly by Alfor, to close the rift gate that had formed. When he came two and found out, he waged war on Altea, Alfor's planet, and that's how all the conflict began. We never knew this prior to the end of S2, and this actually made a lot of people in the fanbase see Zarkon differently.
Another good example fro Studio Mir's work is the Legend of Korra. I recently rewatched the series and there's very interesting villains in it. But one of them is similar to the Azula example, Kuvira. Kuvira came off as a type of Anti-Villain, she was a villain with heroic goals, but was constantly told what she was doing was wrong. She took power from the Earth Kingdom's royalty, undermining them, and spent 3 years uniting the Earth Kingdom prior to that. It turns out she wanted to enable research of a super weapon, she was intimidating other clans to join her cause, and then either kicking out or jailing any who wasn't of Earth Kingdom origins from their homes. But she believed that what she was doing was right and for the good of everyone. However we finally see her have a piece of humility when she break down and cries and realizes what she did was wrong, and even accepted any punishment given to her. There's a quote from Christopher Vogler ‘Every villain is a hero of his or her own story’. Imo I think it's not fair to judge characters until getting more intel on them, or until we see their side of things. I also don't think it's a good comparison to put Tigerstar and Breezepelt on the same level. Tigerstar was pretty much born evil, even StarClan tried to get his own father to kill him as a kit. But instead, he abandons his clan out of fear, prior to that we didn't know that we all just thought he wanted to lazy life of a kittypet more. Doesn't excuse his cowardice, but it does shed light on what actually happened concerning Pinestar. Mapleshade was just one of the few cats that also was an influence on Tigerstar, but like Thistleclaw, it didn't matter, he was going to be evil anyway, and wasn't that confirmed by the writers? Same with Brokenstar, evil no matter what happens down the line, and that was punishment for Yellowfang. However, there are actual cats with clear outside influenced by how they ended up. I know a lot of people like the idea of Mothwing being evil while Hawkfrost is normal. That's possibly debatable merely because it was Tigerstar who was grooming his children down a wrong path, wanting them to do his dirty work for him. It worked on Hawkfrost, but it didn't work on Bramblestar, and they were much older than Breeze was in OotS. Breeze legitimately thought that what he was doing was right, even if he had to align himself with evil cats that were grooming him to do horrible things. They promised him ways to get back at Crow for what he did, and they encouraged him to kill try and kill him along with possibly Leafpool and his half-siblings. Breeze thought, and he says it too, that Jay shouldn't even exist, and ya know, he's not wrong, even if what he's saying is morally wrong. Jay, Lion, and Holly are kits of two major rule breaking, different clans, and kits of a medicine cat. But that doesn't mean what Breeze was doing was right, but in his mind, his head, he thought it was. Having responsibility or a sense of it =/= the inability of being brainwashed in the head. I may not like Crowfeather, but I do encourage the Erins to make an SE about him, he's one of the few characters in the series that actually needs one. Because there's too many gaps surrounding his family for too long, so it's great we're finally getting a POV within WindClan again. The last time was Tallstar, and that was ages ago. |
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Mar 19, 2018 13:18:54 GMT -5
Regarding Breezepelt (and the same goes for alot of characters, actually), I think what alot of people on here are trying to say is that just because he had a bad past and was manipulated doesn't really excuse his actions no matter how you look at it. There's a reason why so many don't like him.
And I'm with this. I love Breezepelt as a villain (in fact, he's pretty much the only reason I kept on reading OotS at all), but I absolutely despise him as a cat, and the same goes for any abuse victim who turns over to the Dark Side, though I also acknowledge that his upbringing, as well as manipulation from the Dark Forest were factors. The only reason I tolerate Blossomfall is because she at least fought for the Clans in the end.
And that's all I'll be saying because I'm really not in the mood to debate at all.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2018 13:36:59 GMT -5
A similar things happens with Scourge, where people thing he's obsessed with killing. When he's actually a lot more calm and calculating. He does enjoy killing though. He enjoys being cruel, because that's who he is. That doesn't mean he isn't also calm and calculating about it but saying he's not obsessed with killing when there's evidence that he is is incorrect. Or do you forget his morbid fascination with watching filet-o-tigerstar? Like, maybe he isn't lets-g-on-a-killing-spree-roll-in-a-bloodbath-for-fun. But If someone wrongs him then death is nearly always his answer for it, and he definitely has no remorse for doing so. |
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 19, 2018 13:38:22 GMT -5
Regarding Breezepelt (and the same goes for alot of characters, actually), I think what alot of people on here are trying to say is that just because he had a bad past and was manipulated doesn't really excuse his actions no matter how you look at it. There's a reason why so many don't like him. And I'm with this. I love Breezepelt as a villain (in fact, he's pretty much the only reason I kept on reading OotS at all), but I absolutely despise him as a cat, and the same goes for any abuse victim who turns over to the Dark Side, though I also acknowledge that his upbringing, as well as manipulation from the Dark Forest were factors. The only reason I tolerate Blossomfall is because she at least fought for the Clans in the end. And that's all I'll be saying because I'm really not in the mood to debate at all. At least you acknowledge that about his character, a lot of people don't and that's my pet peeve, thanks. I feel like sometimes it's hard for me to explain how I feel about certain points and characters, but I'm actually glad at least some people get where I'm coming from now and then. And yeah, I agree, that Breezepelt's actions aren't excused, what he did was still wrong. But I still want to hold off until CT to finally have a more solid opinion on his character, along with Nighcloud and Crowfeather, and some other characters in WindClan. |
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 19, 2018 14:35:46 GMT -5
A similar things happens with Scourge, where people thing he's obsessed with killing. When he's actually a lot more calm and calculating. He does enjoy killing though. He enjoys being cruel, because that's who he is. That doesn't mean he isn't also calm and calculating about it but saying he's not obsessed with killing when there's evidence that he is is incorrect. Or do you forget his morbid fascination with watching filet-o-tigerstar? Like, maybe he isn't lets-g-on-a-killing-spree-roll-in-a-bloodbath-for-fun. But If someone wrongs him then death is nearly always his answer for it, and he definitely has no remorse for doing so. If he was obsessed with killing, then he'd have just had Bloodclan slaughter the clan cats and take the forest for himself immediately rather than give them a grace period. I'm not seeing why watching Tigerstar die is cruel? Yellowfang watched Brokenstar die, does that make her cruel too? He's confirming the kill, there's nothing odd about that. Even Firestar, paragon of purity that he is, just watched Tigerstar die in the exact same fashion. How in the world can you indict Scourge for that? The worst thing that Scourge does is have Snake and Ice kill(in his mind anyway, he didn't know she lived) Barley's sister as punishment for banding together. And that is bad, definitely, and it is the best thing to point out Scourge's villainy. Everything else though, while incredibly huge jerk moves, doesn't really reek of evil. He kills Tigerstar...because Tigerstar was jumping for him with intent to kill him. He tries to steal the clans' territory...because his own cats don't have enough food to eat and he gives them a three day grace period. He kills one of Brokenstar's rogues...because he was threatening to enslave him and was stealing food and attacking the other city cats. He denies his siblings entry to the clan...but he still gives them food and safe passage out. He's a bit of a jerk to Boulder...but he still let him leave and come back just fine. Scourge is ruthless and harsh in my mind, but he comes off as very logical and less bloodthirsty compared to Tigerstar's half-clan executions or Darktail's murder of any who try to leave. |
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Holly Snow
My full names are Hollyleaf;) and Snowwing™
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Post by Holly Snow on Mar 19, 2018 16:34:30 GMT -5
this isn't really true. A major theme of this book was misogyny. Mapleshade was given a worse punishhment than Appledusk even by Darkstar because she was the mother. When has sexism ever been a theme in the Books? Gender isn't important in Clan sercirty. Females and Males are expected to have the exact same reasonability. Both male and female cats do the exact same jobs, they can become Warriors, Deputies, Medicine cats and leaders. The only rank exclusive to a gender is a Queen, but not that's because of sexism, it because it's necessary for biological reasons, considering the mothers are the only ones that can give birth and provide milk. In the recent books, Fernsong even said he'll look after the kits once they're off Ivypool's milk. because vicky literally said so. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2018 2:34:29 GMT -5
When has sexism ever been a theme in the Books? Gender isn't important in Clan sercirty. Females and Males are expected to have the exact same reasonability. Both male and female cats do the exact same jobs, they can become Warriors, Deputies, Medicine cats and leaders. The only rank exclusive to a gender is a Queen, but not that's because of sexism, it because it's necessary for biological reasons, considering the mothers are the only ones that can give birth and provide milk. In the recent books, Fernsong even said he'll look after the kits once they're off Ivypool's milk. because vicky literally said so. Where? Can provide a link please? |
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Post by Fernstep on Mar 20, 2018 2:38:36 GMT -5
because vicky literally said so. Where? Can provide a link please? Not sure what Vicky quote is being referred to, but it is worth noting that the role of Queens in the Clan does negatively impact she-cats in a few other ways. Bluestar and common sense tell us that a she-cat currently nursing kits is usually ineligible to be made deputy if the position opens up, and in Hawkwing's Journey we're told about some old rule (which Leafstar abolished) that said she-cat leaders cannot have kits. While this rule is not alluded to in any other books (to my knowledge), it is true that we don't actually see any she-cat leaders (the few that exist, anyway, which is a whole other thing) having kits while occupying that role. |
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 20, 2018 3:00:00 GMT -5
Mmm the only thing that comes to mind concerning that was when they talked about gendernorms? And names?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2018 9:23:14 GMT -5
Where? Can provide a link please? Not sure what Vicky quote is being referred to, but it is worth noting that the role of Queens in the Clan does negatively impact she-cats in a few other ways. Bluestar and common sense tell us that a she-cat currently nursing kits is usually ineligible to be made deputy if the position opens up, and in Hawkwing's Journey we're told about some old rule (which Leafstar abolished) that said she-cat leaders cannot have kits. While this rule is not alluded to in any other books (to my knowledge), it is true that we don't actually see any she-cat leaders (the few that exist, anyway, which is a whole other thing) having kits while occupying that role. That still makes sense though. Children are a busy duty. Especially for a cat when you can have 2-8 of them at once. They need the attention when they're that small. It may be the duty of every queen to care for them, but that still means they need to be there for them some of the time. You can't exactly organize and lead border and battle patrols from a nest. (Though you could assign them.) Having kits and being a deputy would mean that other cats would CONSTANTLY be bombarding in and out of the nursery. Same for leadership. They could have a stand-in. But that stand in might as well just become deputy themselves because the queens will be in the nursery for roughly 8 moons. (at least the last two while pregnant and six while nursing and waiting for the kits to become apprentices.) That's a majority of the year already, so you might as well just appoint a different deputy. Now, i guess after that time is up they could come back to their post. But the same thing can't be done for a leader. The leader has to lead and you can't just have a stand-in leader because they wouldn't get their 9 lives. So if the leader died while there was a nursing deputy... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ well i guess anarchy ensues. |
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Holly Snow
My full names are Hollyleaf;) and Snowwing™
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Post by Holly Snow on Mar 20, 2018 18:43:26 GMT -5
because vicky literally said so. Where? Can provide a link please? Its somewhere on Vickys facebook |
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Post by Cheetahstar on Mar 20, 2018 19:28:42 GMT -5
Dipper pi- oh wait this is warriors
Mapleshade as for reasons stated above..... also Tigerstar, people tend to forget he planned a lot in the first series and wasn't just brute strength.
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