Post by Cloudstorm on Jun 5, 2022 2:48:21 GMT -5
*Maplefrost* Said
Firstly, I only said that Frecklewish’s reaction is understandable under the circumstances, not meaning I find her actions palliative or condoned, or that Mapleshade deserved it. And the rest of Thunderclan clearly didn’t want Mapleshade harmed or slaughtered either. Otherwise they wouldn’t of hauled Frecklewish off of her in the first place. and while it’s been repeated that Queens are to be respected, and the code states kits are not to be neglected when in pain or danger.
However, exiling them alongside their mother doesn’t constitute neglect, or impose any endangerment for that matter. if they would of been driven out without Mapleshade, unprotected into certain doom, that’d be neglect and cruel. But there’s no immediate danger when accompanied by their mother.
and saying it’s horrendous and cruel to throw a mother and kit’s out into a rainstorm, isn’t a refutable point in this scenario, as it’s explicitly stated to not have started raining until after Mapleshade had already left camp, indicating there’s no immediate threat from the weather at the time the trial takes place, and she’s expelled.
and the severity of Oakstar’s punishment was clearly influenced by his bereavement and emotional involvement with Appledusk having being responsible for his son’s death in his eyes. So his response isn’t exactly outlandish or atypical regarding the situation. And there’s no restrictive rules defining what’s allowed to be divvied out as punishment for breaking the code. While it more severe than what’s typical for the offense, doesn’t make her a victim or wronged for it.
And she hadn’t just broken the code by having a interclan relationship. she also bamboozled, manipulated and tricked her Clanmates purposefully, and even if she just lied by omission, she still intentionally deceived them for her own benefit. And the argument that she was a loyal and honorable warrior up to that point is dubious at best imo. Is she really loyal? She admits at the very beginning of the book when revealing she’s expecting to Appledusk she has no faith in her Clanmates to accept her kits, and iterates all her faith is in Starclan and the warrior code, both which she’s trodden over frankly.
Furthermore there’s really nothing to attribute her actions and murderous spree later on as being responsible for being a victim. As her vengeance is accredited to seeking revenge for the deaths of her kits, which she is solely responsible for, not her victims. Their only responsible for expelling her, which if that’s all it takes to push someone over the edge to commit murder, than I wouldn’t say they were inherently a noble, honorable or upstanding person/cat to begin with.
and saying Appledusk threw Mapleshade under the bus merely to protect his own hide isn’t exactly accurate imo. And don’t know where people are getting he called his kits mistakes either. It’s true he said getting together with Mapleshade was a mistake, but never pointed shade at his kits, on the contrary there are scenes showing his fondness and affection for them. And his animosity and refusal to offer help to Mapleshade is easily explained by his bereavement and grief from losing all his kits, and isn’t anything unconventional. 8 out of 10 couples that experience the lose of a child end in divorce from the bereavement and grief, and blaming of their partner with neither being at fault. granted separation doesn’t usually happen immediately, but considering Appledusk had lost all 3 of his children, and Mapleshade’s reckless decisions and neglect for their safety is what was responsible for their unfortunate demise. So it’s not exactly perplexing that Appledusk didn’t leap to her defense.
And given that Mapleshade had technically broken the code by neglecting her kits safety and ultimately causing their demise, on top of having a interclan relationship, which probably influenced Darkstar’s decision, and the other cats in Riverclan to not refute or object to her judgement.
And lastly. Only thing confirmed about Frecklewish at the scene, is that she was indeed there at some point. However, her exact time of arrival, when she left, and what she exactly witnessed isn’t verified, and is entirely subjective to be pieced together by pure conjecture. furthermore considering it’s described the torrential rains were coming down so heavily that Mapleshade was squinting, and hardly able to keep her eyes open. So Frecklewish’s vision would of been obstructed as well. And if she saw Riverclan already initiating a rescue (AKA the lifeguards) than not exactly unreasonable for her to assume the situation was under control and needn’t get involved, as that’s the way the bystander effect works.
in conclusion, only one that truly wronged Mapleshade was Frecklewish at the trial. Otherwise she refuses to take responsibility and deflect blame off herself for her actions. Her punishment may have been unnecessarily severe perhaps, but honestly as the old adage goes “don’t do the crime if you can’t pay the time”. Punishment for individual crimes will obviously vary based on the circumstances and other factors of each individual crime. And Mapleshade willingly did the crime and somehow thought that Starclan and the code she had broken would defend and justify her, which is pretty backwards imo. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
It has been said, time and time again that queens are to be treated with respect, and that the safety of kits are always priority regardless of their origins. No one is saying Mapleshade should be treated special, or with "extra leniency", it's the mere fact she wasn't treated with ANY leniency at all. Should she have been punished for breaking the code? Yes. No one is denying that. Was the punishment she received fair? No. That is the issue. The punishment she received far outweighed the actions of her crime, and the way she was treated at her own "trial" was horrendous. Also the example you used has no correlation, because at the time Mapleshade did not commit murder, this was before that, during her trial while she was still a member of ThunderClan. When the only crime against the code was having an interclan relationship with a RiverClan cat. Not murder. Leniency and protection applies to queens and kits even outside of the code, or ones from rival clans.
So Frecklewish's actions are understandable? Her almost blinding a cat in front of everyone and trying to kill her is understandable. And then also calling for her and her children to be exiled and casted out? Grieving or not, I think "understandable" is up to those who perceive it as such, but in my opinion I hardly see her actions as understandable. Just disgusting.
So Mapleshade deserved to be beaten, exiled, and left to drown because she lied by omission to her clanmates that also wanted to use her children as tools of revenge?
What Oakstar did was the equivalent of exiling a mother and her children out of the safety of a protective zone during a natural disaster. There was no reason for kits to be casted out into a storm, and then threatened if they were ever caught on their territory. Oakstar made it very clear that his cats had permission to shred her, so staying in ThunderClan territory was no longer safe, nor an option. And considering Frecklewish literally stalked them to make sure they left, was already alarming. She already attacked Mapleshade once, in front of her own children, she wouldn't have a problem doing it again. If anything, Oakstar's actions were incredibly similar to Stoneteller when he sent out cats into the unknown to kill a mountain lion, and threatened them if they returned without killing it.
Darkstar didn't allow Mapleshade to grieve her own dead children. Her decision was heartless. And even if Appledusk and Mapleshade were no longer together now, it doesn't change that he threw her under the bus, shifting her with the all the blame, to save himself in the eyes of his leader and clanmates. Appledusk's actions with Mapleshade DID affect the decision on whether or not he was punished too, because he had just as much involvement in the interclan relationship as Mapleshade. He still lied to his clanmates, he still cheated on Reedshine, he broke their loyalty. But they were much more lenient with him considering he actually had cats defending him, and no HEAVY bias against his case. I highly doubt any cat would actually have a vendetta against Mapleshade being the mother of the kits, except for the fact that she is ThunderClan, vs how TC treated them when they found out Appledusk was the father. Because Appledusk blamed Mapleshade, Darkstar exiled her as well, no one is saying she should have been allowed to stay, but she should have at least been able to mourn her children and stay the night before leaving.
Oakstar is a leader. He shouldn't be having bias period. Bramblestar still sent Dovewing back with escorts, so her and her kits could return to ShadowClan safely despite her being a traitor, yet Oakstar couldn't bother to do the same because he didn't care about the safety of those children. None of the cats in ThunderClan lifted a paw to ensure the safety of those kits, or treated a mother with any bit of leniency because of their biased hatred for Appledusk. Something that the kits couldn't help, and something that just unfortunately lined up in Mapleshade's case. Because again, she was already with Appledusk BEFORE the incident with Birchface, not after.
Oakstar bounded down from Highrock and stood in front of her. His yellow eyes gleamed with hatred and he thrust his head forward until his breath blew hotly on Mapleshade’s muzzle. “Have you forgotten that Appledusk murdered my son and Flowerpaw? Of all the cats, why did you have to choose him? You cannot possibly expect my forgiveness.”
As long as those kits had Appledusk's blood in their veins I highly doubt he would have "simmered down".
Also, Frecklewish quite literally admitted herself. There are no holes when the evidence of what she did is right there, and then admits and confirms to what she did, along with a witness as well. It's as plain as day. She stalked Mapleshade and her kits through ThunderClan territory. Watch them drowning and being washed down river, and simply walked away from the situation, doing nothing to help. Honestly all it did was just reassure me that Frecklewish is not the type of person you'd rely on to get a life guard's attention when you're drowning at a beach.
At the end of the day, Mapleshade is still a victim, regardless of her actions later in the novella.
So Frecklewish's actions are understandable? Her almost blinding a cat in front of everyone and trying to kill her is understandable. And then also calling for her and her children to be exiled and casted out? Grieving or not, I think "understandable" is up to those who perceive it as such, but in my opinion I hardly see her actions as understandable. Just disgusting.
So Mapleshade deserved to be beaten, exiled, and left to drown because she lied by omission to her clanmates that also wanted to use her children as tools of revenge?
What Oakstar did was the equivalent of exiling a mother and her children out of the safety of a protective zone during a natural disaster. There was no reason for kits to be casted out into a storm, and then threatened if they were ever caught on their territory. Oakstar made it very clear that his cats had permission to shred her, so staying in ThunderClan territory was no longer safe, nor an option. And considering Frecklewish literally stalked them to make sure they left, was already alarming. She already attacked Mapleshade once, in front of her own children, she wouldn't have a problem doing it again. If anything, Oakstar's actions were incredibly similar to Stoneteller when he sent out cats into the unknown to kill a mountain lion, and threatened them if they returned without killing it.
Darkstar didn't allow Mapleshade to grieve her own dead children. Her decision was heartless. And even if Appledusk and Mapleshade were no longer together now, it doesn't change that he threw her under the bus, shifting her with the all the blame, to save himself in the eyes of his leader and clanmates. Appledusk's actions with Mapleshade DID affect the decision on whether or not he was punished too, because he had just as much involvement in the interclan relationship as Mapleshade. He still lied to his clanmates, he still cheated on Reedshine, he broke their loyalty. But they were much more lenient with him considering he actually had cats defending him, and no HEAVY bias against his case. I highly doubt any cat would actually have a vendetta against Mapleshade being the mother of the kits, except for the fact that she is ThunderClan, vs how TC treated them when they found out Appledusk was the father. Because Appledusk blamed Mapleshade, Darkstar exiled her as well, no one is saying she should have been allowed to stay, but she should have at least been able to mourn her children and stay the night before leaving.
Oakstar is a leader. He shouldn't be having bias period. Bramblestar still sent Dovewing back with escorts, so her and her kits could return to ShadowClan safely despite her being a traitor, yet Oakstar couldn't bother to do the same because he didn't care about the safety of those children. None of the cats in ThunderClan lifted a paw to ensure the safety of those kits, or treated a mother with any bit of leniency because of their biased hatred for Appledusk. Something that the kits couldn't help, and something that just unfortunately lined up in Mapleshade's case. Because again, she was already with Appledusk BEFORE the incident with Birchface, not after.
Oakstar bounded down from Highrock and stood in front of her. His yellow eyes gleamed with hatred and he thrust his head forward until his breath blew hotly on Mapleshade’s muzzle. “Have you forgotten that Appledusk murdered my son and Flowerpaw? Of all the cats, why did you have to choose him? You cannot possibly expect my forgiveness.”
As long as those kits had Appledusk's blood in their veins I highly doubt he would have "simmered down".
Also, Frecklewish quite literally admitted herself. There are no holes when the evidence of what she did is right there, and then admits and confirms to what she did, along with a witness as well. It's as plain as day. She stalked Mapleshade and her kits through ThunderClan territory. Watch them drowning and being washed down river, and simply walked away from the situation, doing nothing to help. Honestly all it did was just reassure me that Frecklewish is not the type of person you'd rely on to get a life guard's attention when you're drowning at a beach.
At the end of the day, Mapleshade is still a victim, regardless of her actions later in the novella.
Firstly, I only said that Frecklewish’s reaction is understandable under the circumstances, not meaning I find her actions palliative or condoned, or that Mapleshade deserved it. And the rest of Thunderclan clearly didn’t want Mapleshade harmed or slaughtered either. Otherwise they wouldn’t of hauled Frecklewish off of her in the first place. and while it’s been repeated that Queens are to be respected, and the code states kits are not to be neglected when in pain or danger.
However, exiling them alongside their mother doesn’t constitute neglect, or impose any endangerment for that matter. if they would of been driven out without Mapleshade, unprotected into certain doom, that’d be neglect and cruel. But there’s no immediate danger when accompanied by their mother.
and saying it’s horrendous and cruel to throw a mother and kit’s out into a rainstorm, isn’t a refutable point in this scenario, as it’s explicitly stated to not have started raining until after Mapleshade had already left camp, indicating there’s no immediate threat from the weather at the time the trial takes place, and she’s expelled.
and the severity of Oakstar’s punishment was clearly influenced by his bereavement and emotional involvement with Appledusk having being responsible for his son’s death in his eyes. So his response isn’t exactly outlandish or atypical regarding the situation. And there’s no restrictive rules defining what’s allowed to be divvied out as punishment for breaking the code. While it more severe than what’s typical for the offense, doesn’t make her a victim or wronged for it.
And she hadn’t just broken the code by having a interclan relationship. she also bamboozled, manipulated and tricked her Clanmates purposefully, and even if she just lied by omission, she still intentionally deceived them for her own benefit. And the argument that she was a loyal and honorable warrior up to that point is dubious at best imo. Is she really loyal? She admits at the very beginning of the book when revealing she’s expecting to Appledusk she has no faith in her Clanmates to accept her kits, and iterates all her faith is in Starclan and the warrior code, both which she’s trodden over frankly.
Furthermore there’s really nothing to attribute her actions and murderous spree later on as being responsible for being a victim. As her vengeance is accredited to seeking revenge for the deaths of her kits, which she is solely responsible for, not her victims. Their only responsible for expelling her, which if that’s all it takes to push someone over the edge to commit murder, than I wouldn’t say they were inherently a noble, honorable or upstanding person/cat to begin with.
and saying Appledusk threw Mapleshade under the bus merely to protect his own hide isn’t exactly accurate imo. And don’t know where people are getting he called his kits mistakes either. It’s true he said getting together with Mapleshade was a mistake, but never pointed shade at his kits, on the contrary there are scenes showing his fondness and affection for them. And his animosity and refusal to offer help to Mapleshade is easily explained by his bereavement and grief from losing all his kits, and isn’t anything unconventional. 8 out of 10 couples that experience the lose of a child end in divorce from the bereavement and grief, and blaming of their partner with neither being at fault. granted separation doesn’t usually happen immediately, but considering Appledusk had lost all 3 of his children, and Mapleshade’s reckless decisions and neglect for their safety is what was responsible for their unfortunate demise. So it’s not exactly perplexing that Appledusk didn’t leap to her defense.
And given that Mapleshade had technically broken the code by neglecting her kits safety and ultimately causing their demise, on top of having a interclan relationship, which probably influenced Darkstar’s decision, and the other cats in Riverclan to not refute or object to her judgement.
And lastly. Only thing confirmed about Frecklewish at the scene, is that she was indeed there at some point. However, her exact time of arrival, when she left, and what she exactly witnessed isn’t verified, and is entirely subjective to be pieced together by pure conjecture. furthermore considering it’s described the torrential rains were coming down so heavily that Mapleshade was squinting, and hardly able to keep her eyes open. So Frecklewish’s vision would of been obstructed as well. And if she saw Riverclan already initiating a rescue (AKA the lifeguards) than not exactly unreasonable for her to assume the situation was under control and needn’t get involved, as that’s the way the bystander effect works.
in conclusion, only one that truly wronged Mapleshade was Frecklewish at the trial. Otherwise she refuses to take responsibility and deflect blame off herself for her actions. Her punishment may have been unnecessarily severe perhaps, but honestly as the old adage goes “don’t do the crime if you can’t pay the time”. Punishment for individual crimes will obviously vary based on the circumstances and other factors of each individual crime. And Mapleshade willingly did the crime and somehow thought that Starclan and the code she had broken would defend and justify her, which is pretty backwards imo. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.