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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Jun 2, 2022 23:56:18 GMT -5
I'd definitely say Mapleshade and her kits. I'd also say Goosefeather
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Jun 3, 2022 2:06:22 GMT -5
I would say Mapleshade's kits and victims were more wronged than her, imo. She did a lot of morally questionable things even before she was exiled, incluiding manipulating her clanmates.
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Post by jayfella on Jun 3, 2022 2:37:06 GMT -5
Frecklewish. Kits too.
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Post by ivysaur on Jun 3, 2022 3:59:58 GMT -5
Goosefeather struggled all his life with the omens and everyone treated him so badly for it! Mappleshade was wronged sure but she started murdering people over it. Goosefeather was born with powers he couldn't control and the worst thing he did was inadvertently cause Stormkit to break his jaw (which wasn't his fault and he was in ThunderClan territory too)
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Post by Twilight Sparkle on Jun 3, 2022 6:01:32 GMT -5
Badgerfang and all the kits who died under Brokenstar.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 3, 2022 8:39:22 GMT -5
Mapleshade and her kits, both period.
Mapleshade lying shouldn't have warranted the punishment she received. They were biased regardless of if she lied, or omitted who the real father was. Because regardless, they persecuted her and her kits based on their bloodline at the end of the day, and used the prophecy as an excuse to wash their paws of any guilt.
No mother deserved to be attacked in front of her children, hear them be called "things" then cast out during rain season, while one of her former clanmates left them to drown. Not to mention her mate cheating on her, throwing her under the bus, and RiverClan not even letting her mourn her own kits before chasing her out again.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2022 10:06:54 GMT -5
Obviously all the kits who were killed throughout the series are at the top of the list, but other than that I would say Stonefur.
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Post by rabbit on Jun 3, 2022 12:03:07 GMT -5
I feel like with TBC, the BS StarClan trial, and StarClan lying to her, Squirrelflight is pretty up there.
Also honorable mention with Dawnpelt. All of her children are dead. Or evil. Died off screen of a probably horrible drowning death, that one of her daughters participated in. Oh, almost forgot to mention her son Juniperclaw attempting to poison the entirety of SkyClan to death.
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Post by tema on Jun 3, 2022 13:19:15 GMT -5
Badgerfang and all the kits who died under Brokenstar. Add in the Elders forced out of the camp too. And Yellowfang got pretty screwed too. You know what? Just toss in, like, 70% of ShadowClan from that time.
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Asexual
#07B04C
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Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Jun 3, 2022 17:33:10 GMT -5
Snowkit. Poor little guy didn't deserve to go out like that. Imagine how awful it was for him, being killed while unable to anything about it.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 3, 2022 17:53:48 GMT -5
Her kits and victims were the most wronged in the situation. Sure Mapleshade being attacked in front of her kits was inappropriate and not right. But Mapleshade made questionable decisions, willing broke the code and was expecting no consequences. the punishment dispensed upon her might have been unnecessarily harsh perhaps? but honestly what was she expecting from her betrayal? compassion? understanding? Honesty? the same courtesy she kept from her Clanmates. There’s also Ravenwing’s vision backing up Oakstar’s decision to exile her, and yes one could argue the validity, and what exactly the vision meant for the future. But it’s pretty clear that it meant the kits needed to leave Thunderclan for whatever reason, now Starclan probably didn’t intend for them to be banished under those circumstances. And Oakstar was clearly biased being Birchface’s father and was harsher than needed. But all my sympathy for her is completely devoid once she decided to go on a murderous massacring spree. She broke the rules, arguably received harsher punishment than what was needed, then decided to slaughter 3 cats in cold-blood. I wouldn’t even consider her a victim period in the situation. She stuck her paw in the fire and got burned, which is to be expected. Mapleshade is a victim. No one is saying that Mapleshade was innocent in the situation either, but how she was treated over a lie was far worse. Oakstar and Frecklewish were planning to use her kits as tools for revenge and wanted them to kill Appledusk one day, without showing mercy, which clearly went against the code as Mapleshade pointed out. Ravenwing told the truth, knowing he would put the kits in danger. Even if he was just doing his job, he still stood by and allowed Mapleshade to be treated like trash and did nothing when kits were exiled. Not suggesting an escort patrol, or anything, if he actually did care he would have opened his mouth. Frecklewish caused her own death. Period. She not only left Mapleshade and her kits to drown, but she also had no problem attacking her after she lost them too, and wishing death upon her. All Mapleshade had to do was side step her, and she fell into a snake like an imbecile, instead of getting help from her nearby patrol. When the secret got out, Oakstar was more angry about the kits belonging to Appledusk, and then used the prophecy as an excuse to exile them when Mapleshade demanded leniency because she was a queen with kits. It was also why Frecklewish attacked her, not because the kits didn't belong to her brother, but because of who the father was, to the point she had to be dragged off of Mapleshade as she slashed at her face. And while we're at it, again, Darkstar doesn't even let her mourn her own dead children, while Appledusk was cheating on her this entire time and threw her under the bus to save himself. And Reedshine distastefully defends him despite him cheating on her too. Mapleshade was dealt an unfair hand from the start. Because whether the secret got out or not, whether she lied or not, because of the mere fact of who the father was of those kits, she would have been treated like trash based on bias. Especially considering the fact that she was already with Appledusk before Birchface's death. I highly doubt they would have treated her the same way if Appledusk wans't the father, which shows just how grossly bias they were. No one excuses her actions AFTER she killed Ravenwing either, especially because of how too far gone and delirious she was at that point. She was hallucinating her dead children, thinking that killing cats would put their souls to rest. And no one is saying you have to sympathize with her either, but at the end of the day she was still a victim period. Regardless of how Mapleshade turned out in the end though doesn't change how the other cats treated her up until that point. I couldn't imagine other cats, who broke the same rule, if not worse, as Mapleshade, being treated the same way. Imagine if Dovewing was mauled in the face by one of her clanmates after being outed by her own medicine cat. Or Bluestar and her kits being exiled into a snowstorm, and none of them made it to RiverClan except her. Or Leafpool being exiled from both ThunderClan and WindClan and chased out of the clans all together, and left to rot in a pit after she's given up on life? Would those be considered fair punishments?
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jun 3, 2022 17:58:40 GMT -5
i agree with everyones choices so far. i'll put one in for honeyfern. they killed her off for no reason.
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Post by Brownie on Jun 3, 2022 18:34:31 GMT -5
tbh Hollyleaf. Imagine what it was like when both your brothers are literally demigods and you're waiting to find out what power you have and it's... nothing. Left out of the most important thing that could have ever happened to her.
And THEN to find out that your mom has been lying to you the whole time. And that your entire self-image --a dad that's deputy and an amazing warrior mom that was so loyal to her Clan that she didn't even spend 6 moons raising you-- giving her a steadfast loyalty to the Code and ThunderClan all was based on nothing.
She deserved more.
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Post by twigfrost on Jun 3, 2022 19:51:36 GMT -5
mapleshade’s kits and victims
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Jun 3, 2022 22:13:57 GMT -5
People tend to forget this. Bad people can still be victims. In fact, a lot of bad people do bad things because of some trauma in their past where they were victims.
Mapleshade was treated horrendously. Did she bring it on herself? Yes. But that never negates the fact that she was victimized. In fact, Maple most likely would have never had done what she did, had she been given some sort of decency. Losing her kits was the final straw for her. It doesn't excuse what she did, no. But it does explain why she did what she did.
No matter how much people may hate her, Mapleshade was a victim. What she did after the fact doesn't erase that.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Jun 4, 2022 0:13:39 GMT -5
Her kits and victims were the most wronged in the situation. Sure Mapleshade being attacked in front of her kits was inappropriate and not right. But Mapleshade made questionable decisions, willing broke the code and was expecting no consequences. the punishment dispensed upon her might have been unnecessarily harsh perhaps? but honestly what was she expecting from her betrayal? compassion? understanding? Honesty? the same courtesy she kept from her Clanmates. There’s also Ravenwing’s vision backing up Oakstar’s decision to exile her, and yes one could argue the validity, and what exactly the vision meant for the future. But it’s pretty clear that it meant the kits needed to leave Thunderclan for whatever reason, now Starclan probably didn’t intend for them to be banished under those circumstances. And Oakstar was clearly biased being Birchface’s father and was harsher than needed. But all my sympathy for her is completely devoid once she decided to go on a murderous massacring spree. She broke the rules, arguably received harsher punishment than what was needed, then decided to slaughter 3 cats in cold-blood. I wouldn’t even consider her a victim period in the situation. She stuck her paw in the fire and got burned, which is to be expected. Mapleshade is a victim. No one is saying that Mapleshade was innocent in the situation either, but how she was treated over a lie was far worse. Oakstar and Frecklewish were planning to use her kits as tools for revenge and wanted them to kill Appledusk one day, without showing mercy, which clearly went against the code as Mapleshade pointed out. Ravenwing told the truth, knowing he would put the kits in danger. Even if he was just doing his job, he still stood by and allowed Mapleshade to be treated like trash and did nothing when kits were exiled. Not suggesting an escort patrol, or anything, if he actually did care he would have opened his mouth. Frecklewish caused her own death. Period. She not only left Mapleshade and her kits to drown, but she also had no problem attacking her after she lost them too, and wishing death upon her. All Mapleshade had to do was side step her, and she fell into a snake like an imbecile, instead of getting help from her nearby patrol. When the secret got out, Oakstar was more angry about the kits belonging to Appledusk, and then used the prophecy as an excuse to exile them when Mapleshade demanded leniency because she was a queen with kits. It was also why Frecklewish attacked her, not because the kits didn't belong to her brother, but because of who the father was, to the point she had to be dragged off of Mapleshade as she slashed at her face. And while we're at it, again, Darkstar doesn't even let her mourn her own dead children, while Appledusk was cheating on her this entire time and threw her under the bus to save himself. And Reedshine distastefully defends him despite him cheating on her too. Mapleshade was dealt an unfair hand from the start. Because whether the secret got out or not, whether she lied or not, because of the mere fact of who the father was of those kits, she would have been treated like trash based on bias. Especially considering the fact that she was already with Appledusk before Birchface's death. I highly doubt they would have treated her the same way if Appledusk wans't the father, which shows just how grossly bias they were. No one excuses her actions AFTER she killed Ravenwing either, especially because of how too far gone and delirious she was at that point. She was hallucinating her dead children, thinking that killing cats would put their souls to rest. And no one is saying you have to sympathize with her either, but at the end of the day she was still a victim period. Regardless of how Mapleshade turned out in the end though doesn't change how the other cats treated her up until that point. I couldn't imagine other cats, who broke the same rule, if not worse, as Mapleshade, being treated the same way. Imagine if Dovewing was mauled in the face by one of her clanmates after being outed by her own medicine cat. Or Bluestar and her kits being exiled into a snowstorm, and none of them made it to RiverClan except her. Or Leafpool being exiled from both ThunderClan and WindClan and chased out of the clans all together, and left to rot in a pit after she's given up on life? Would those be considered fair punishments? I understand and acknowledge your points. But I’m respectfully in disagreement. Firstly, full disclosure, I don’t agree with the sentiment just because she’s a mother means she should be allowed special privileges, extra leniency, or be allowed to slide when comes to breaking rules. I mean, if a mother commits murder, is justice to be suspended, and that person not to be condemned and incarcerated for the crime, simply because she has children?, not exactly a comparable offense, but I’m sure you get the point. And the leniency and protection Mapleshade is demanding granted to queens by the code is for law abiding citizens. Which she’s no longer one at that point. Now I do agree that Frecklewish slashing out at Mapleshade and calling the kits “Half-creatures” is unwarranted and grossly inappropriate, although understandable coming from a grieving sibling that lost their littermate, and also there’s the fact that Mapleshade willingly deceived Frecklewish into believing the kits were Birchface’s. And there’s several incidents highlighting Mapleshade’s manipulative, narcissistic and vindictive tendencies. She actively has no qualms playing with other peoples emotions and heartstrings to her benefit. And I’m sorry, but what exactly is Mapleshade a victim of? repercussions of her punishment from her reproachable actions?. To reference the definition of a victim. “a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action”. Nothing about Oakstar’s punishment constitutes a criminal act, and there’s no definitive rules or perimeters to what a Leader can divvy out as punishment to someone that breaks the code. I suppose you could argue exiling the kits was neglect since they were innocent?. But honestly that arguments pretty flimsy imo, as the kits aren’t just being thrown out defenseless on their own, and have their mother to provide for and protect them. Suppose you could call her a victim of natural disaster with the Flood and rainstorm. But that’s not linked back to anyone in Thunderclan wronging her, unless your saying Oakstar is held responsible for Mapleshade taking her kits across the stepping stones while the river was flooding. That’s equivalent of blaming a Business owner for firing an employee that was a thief, and that person being in able to secure another job, went broke and ended up homeless. Only legitimate case of victimization imo is her being attacked by Frecklewish. What Appledusk did was scummy, but there’s no actual proof that had any effect in Darkstar’s decision to refuse Mapleshade sanctuary. Was Oakstar’s punishment unreasonably harsh? Perhaps, and there’s no denying he was heavily biased and influenced by his emotional and personal involvement in the situation. But than again, everyone is influenced by some level of bias based off of personal experiences and ideologies etc. and he clearly let his rage and emotions control his judgement. However, I’d be pretty unrealistic for a father in that situation to not have a similar reaction under the circumstances. And argument that Frecklewish just watched Mapleshade’s kits drown without lifting a claw is frankly a mighty fine strawmen, that has more holes and blank spaces than Swiss cheese, with next to no conclusive evidence. Only thing definitively revealed is that she was present during the ordeal at some point. and there’s no telling if Oakstar’s rage wouldn’t have simmered down later, and would of allowed her to rejoin, probably good chance not, but it was a possibility. Mapleshade’s kits were for sure Victims. But I sincerely don’t think she was. She had some unfortunate circumstances befall her, I’ll give her that.
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Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on Jun 4, 2022 1:24:34 GMT -5
GOOSEFEATHER
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Post by dahliadove - #1 nightpelt fan on Jun 4, 2022 3:27:45 GMT -5
Squirrelflight tbh
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 4, 2022 7:57:55 GMT -5
Mapleshade is a victim. No one is saying that Mapleshade was innocent in the situation either, but how she was treated over a lie was far worse.
Oakstar and Frecklewish were planning to use her kits as tools for revenge and wanted them to kill Appledusk one day, without showing mercy, which clearly went against the code as Mapleshade pointed out.
Ravenwing told the truth, knowing he would put the kits in danger. Even if he was just doing his job, he still stood by and allowed Mapleshade to be treated like trash and did nothing when kits were exiled. Not suggesting an escort patrol, or anything, if he actually did care he would have opened his mouth.
Frecklewish caused her own death. Period. She not only left Mapleshade and her kits to drown, but she also had no problem attacking her after she lost them too, and wishing death upon her. All Mapleshade had to do was side step her, and she fell into a snake like an imbecile, instead of getting help from her nearby patrol.
When the secret got out, Oakstar was more angry about the kits belonging to Appledusk, and then used the prophecy as an excuse to exile them when Mapleshade demanded leniency because she was a queen with kits. It was also why Frecklewish attacked her, not because the kits didn't belong to her brother, but because of who the father was, to the point she had to be dragged off of Mapleshade as she slashed at her face.
And while we're at it, again, Darkstar doesn't even let her mourn her own dead children, while Appledusk was cheating on her this entire time and threw her under the bus to save himself. And Reedshine distastefully defends him despite him cheating on her too.
Mapleshade was dealt an unfair hand from the start. Because whether the secret got out or not, whether she lied or not, because of the mere fact of who the father was of those kits, she would have been treated like trash based on bias. Especially considering the fact that she was already with Appledusk before Birchface's death. I highly doubt they would have treated her the same way if Appledusk wans't the father, which shows just how grossly bias they were.
No one excuses her actions AFTER she killed Ravenwing either, especially because of how too far gone and delirious she was at that point. She was hallucinating her dead children, thinking that killing cats would put their souls to rest. And no one is saying you have to sympathize with her either, but at the end of the day she was still a victim period. Regardless of how Mapleshade turned out in the end though doesn't change how the other cats treated her up until that point.
I couldn't imagine other cats, who broke the same rule, if not worse, as Mapleshade, being treated the same way. Imagine if Dovewing was mauled in the face by one of her clanmates after being outed by her own medicine cat. Or Bluestar and her kits being exiled into a snowstorm, and none of them made it to RiverClan except her. Or Leafpool being exiled from both ThunderClan and WindClan and chased out of the clans all together, and left to rot in a pit after she's given up on life? Would those be considered fair punishments? I understand and acknowledge your points. But I’m respectfully in disagreement. Firstly, full disclosure, I don’t agree with the sentiment just because she’s a mother means she should be allowed special privileges, extra leniency, or be allowed to slide when comes to breaking rules. I mean, if a mother commits murder, is justice to be suspended, and that person not to be condemned and incarcerated for the crime, simply because she has children?, not exactly a comparable offense, but I’m sure you get the point. And the leniency and protection Mapleshade is demanding granted to queens by the code is for law abiding citizens. Which she’s no longer one at that point. Now I do agree that Frecklewish slashing out at Mapleshade and calling the kits “Half-creatures” is unwarranted and grossly inappropriate, although understandable coming from a grieving sibling that lost their littermate, and also there’s the fact that Mapleshade willingly deceived Frecklewish into believing the kits were Birchface’s. And there’s several incidents highlighting Mapleshade’s manipulative, narcissistic and vindictive tendencies. She actively has no qualms playing with other peoples emotions and heartstrings to her benefit. And I’m sorry, but what exactly is Mapleshade a victim of? repercussions of her punishment from her reproachable actions?. To reference the definition of a victim. “a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action”. Nothing about Oakstar’s punishment constitutes a criminal act, and there’s no definitive rules or perimeters to what a Leader can divvy out as punishment to someone that breaks the code. I suppose you could argue exiling the kits was neglect since they were innocent?. But honestly that arguments pretty flimsy imo, as the kits aren’t just being thrown out defenseless on their own, and have their mother to provide for and protect them. Suppose you could call her a victim of natural disaster with the Flood and rainstorm. But that’s not linked back to anyone in Thunderclan wronging her, unless your saying Oakstar is held responsible for Mapleshade taking her kits across the stepping stones while the river was flooding. That’s equivalent of blaming a Business owner for firing an employee that was a thief, and that person being in able to secure another job, went broke and ended up homeless. Only legitimate case of victimization imo is her being attacked by Frecklewish. What Appledusk did was scummy, but there’s no actual proof that had any effect in Darkstar’s decision to refuse Mapleshade sanctuary. Was Oakstar’s punishment unreasonably harsh? Perhaps, and there’s no denying he was heavily biased and influenced by his emotional and personal involvement in the situation. But than again, everyone is influenced by some level of bias based off of personal experiences and ideologies etc. and he clearly let his rage and emotions control his judgement. However, I’d be pretty unrealistic for a father in that situation to not have a similar reaction under the circumstances. And argument that Frecklewish just watched Mapleshade’s kits drown without lifting a claw is frankly a mighty fine strawmen, that has more holes and blank spaces than Swiss cheese, with next to no conclusive evidence. Only thing definitively revealed is that she was present during the ordeal at some point. and there’s no telling if Oakstar’s rage wouldn’t have simmered down later, and would of allowed her to rejoin, probably good chance not, but it was a possibility. Mapleshade’s kits were for sure Victims. But I sincerely don’t think she was. She had some unfortunate circumstances befall her, I’ll give her that. It has been said, time and time again that queens are to be treated with respect, and that the safety of kits are always priority regardless of their origins. No one is saying Mapleshade should be treated special, or with "extra leniency", it's the mere fact she wasn't treated with ANY leniency at all. Should she have been punished for breaking the code? Yes. No one is denying that. Was the punishment she received fair? No. That is the issue. The punishment she received far outweighed the actions of her crime, and the way she was treated at her own "trial" was horrendous. Also the example you used has no correlation, because at the time Mapleshade did not commit murder, this was before that, during her trial while she was still a member of ThunderClan. When the only crime against the code was having an interclan relationship with a RiverClan cat. Not murder. Leniency and protection applies to queens and kits even outside of the code, or ones from rival clans. So Frecklewish's actions are understandable? Her almost blinding a cat in front of everyone and trying to kill her is understandable. And then also calling for her and her children to be exiled and casted out? Grieving or not, I think "understandable" is up to those who perceive it as such, but in my opinion I hardly see her actions as understandable. Just disgusting. So Mapleshade deserved to be beaten, exiled, and left to drown because she lied by omission to her clanmates that also wanted to use her children as tools of revenge? What Oakstar did was the equivalent of exiling a mother and her children out of the safety of a protective zone during a natural disaster. There was no reason for kits to be casted out into a storm, and then threatened if they were ever caught on their territory. Oakstar made it very clear that his cats had permission to shred her, so staying in ThunderClan territory was no longer safe, nor an option. And considering Frecklewish literally stalked them to make sure they left, was already alarming. She already attacked Mapleshade once, in front of her own children, she wouldn't have a problem doing it again. If anything, Oakstar's actions were incredibly similar to Stoneteller when he sent out cats into the unknown to kill a mountain lion, and threatened them if they returned without killing it. Darkstar didn't allow Mapleshade to grieve her own dead children. Her decision was heartless. And even if Appledusk and Mapleshade were no longer together now, it doesn't change that he threw her under the bus, shifting her with the all the blame, to save himself in the eyes of his leader and clanmates. Appledusk's actions with Mapleshade DID affect the decision on whether or not he was punished too, because he had just as much involvement in the interclan relationship as Mapleshade. He still lied to his clanmates, he still cheated on Reedshine, he broke their loyalty. But they were much more lenient with him considering he actually had cats defending him, and no HEAVY bias against his case. I highly doubt any cat would actually have a vendetta against Mapleshade being the mother of the kits, except for the fact that she is ThunderClan, vs how TC treated them when they found out Appledusk was the father. Because Appledusk blamed Mapleshade, Darkstar exiled her as well, no one is saying she should have been allowed to stay, but she should have at least been able to mourn her children and stay the night before leaving. Oakstar is a leader. He shouldn't be having bias period. Bramblestar still sent Dovewing back with escorts, so her and her kits could return to ShadowClan safely despite her being a traitor, yet Oakstar couldn't bother to do the same because he didn't care about the safety of those children. None of the cats in ThunderClan lifted a paw to ensure the safety of those kits, or treated a mother with any bit of leniency because of their biased hatred for Appledusk. Something that the kits couldn't help, and something that just unfortunately lined up in Mapleshade's case. Because again, she was already with Appledusk BEFORE the incident with Birchface, not after. As long as those kits had Appledusk's blood in their veins I highly doubt he would have "simmered down". Also, Frecklewish quite literally admitted herself. There are no holes when the evidence of what she did is right there, and then admits and confirms to what she did, along with a witness as well. It's as plain as day. She stalked Mapleshade and her kits through ThunderClan territory. Watch them drowning and being washed down river, and simply walked away from the situation, doing nothing to help. Honestly all it did was just reassure me that Frecklewish is not the type of person you'd rely on to get a life guard's attention when you're drowning at a beach. At the end of the day, Mapleshade is still a victim, regardless of her actions later in the novella.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 4, 2022 8:30:49 GMT -5
People tend to forget this. Bad people can still be victims. In fact, a lot of bad people do bad things because of some trauma in their past where they were victims. Mapleshade was treated horrendously. Did she bring it on herself? Yes. But that never negates the fact that she was victimized. In fact, Maple most likely would have never had done what she did, had she been given some sort of decency. Losing her kits was the final straw for her. It doesn't excuse what she did, no. But it does explain why she did what she did. No matter how much people may hate her, Mapleshade was a victim. What she did after the fact doesn't erase that. I always find it strange that people think that because of how a character turned out in the end, that suddenly negates any type of things they went through up to that point. Not everything is black and white, not all characters turn out for the better. And I agree, Mapleshade wouldn't have done what she did in the first place under normal circumstances, in fact she'd just be another case of interclan relationship exposed if she and her kits weren't treated so horribly. It doesn't make what she did right, she'd still be obviously punished, by being forced to choose clans, etc, but I highly doubt it be as venomous as the amounts of bias she received against her in the novella. There were so many opportunities in the novella where she and her kits could have been treated like decent beings, but weren't. People can argue, Mapleshade lying by omission is what caused all this, when in the end, regardless of whether she lied or not, those kits would have been treated horribly for something they couldn't help. Heck, arguably something Mapleshade couldn't help either since, she and Appledusk were together before the Birchface incident. So whether she said Birchface was the father, the mere fact that Appledusk was actually the father is still enough for these cats to drag her through the dirt. Even if what Ravenwing did was him doing his duties, he could have said to Mapleshade that he plans to tell Oakstar the truth if she doesn't, giving her an ultimatum, then I would have found that way more respectable. Or maybe the two of them went to Oakstar together to speak with him over the situation in private, compared to what happened in the end. If he actually cared about the kits he would have found other ways to go about the situation, and still remain neutral, over the suspiciously bias behavior he showed as well. And even at the trial, he could have suggested an escort to Oakstar, over him just keeping his mouth shut and looking on angrily like the others. Oakstar could have let Mapleshade stay the night, wait out the storm, guarded in the nursery while making the decision of what to do with her. Either he could send her out the next day to RiverClan's boarders with the kits, or reconsider, the choice is up to him in the end. And if he is using the omen as a reason, then there's still nothing stopping him from sending her away with escorts after the trial. Even during the trial, he could have at least heard out Mapleshade, because by the way he spoke to her, it sounded like he was under the impression that she chose him after the Birchface incident, not before, but who knows. Mapleshade never really had a real leg to stand on in that "trial" from the start thanks to Ravenwing. While Frecklewish is a whole case of messed up. I know people say she was acting out of grief and her actions are understandable, but that can literally apply to any character acting out of grief, even Mapleshade. So I don't think that's a good argument to make imo. She supposedly loved those kits, but then suddenly does the equivalent of "dehumanizing" them the moment she finds out about the father, after clawing their mother's face up in front of them. She saw them drowning in the river, knew a patrol was nearby and did nothing to alert the said patrol. She could have helped, without even getting her paws wet, which is the wild thing imo. Those kits would have had way more of a chance of survival if the RiverClan patrol had known they were in there from the start, over them finding out from a near-drowned Mapleshade after. There are plenty of other ways Oakstar, Ravenwing and Frecklewish could have handled the situation, with the safety of the kits in mind, but it's out of their own bias and hatred that they didn't, or just didn't care.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Jun 4, 2022 9:38:31 GMT -5
Did Mapleshade even try to make her exile any better, though?
When Ravenwing finds her, she dosen't even try to admit she's at fault for breaking the code. She inmmediately pushes the blame onto her Clan and Frecklewish for beliving the lie, tries to guilttrip Ravenwing, and starts being disrespectful to him. "I have told you nothing" "It's not my fault everyone belived the lie". "These are ThunderClan's kits!" (Guiltripping, right Mapleshade?) She clearly didin't own up to her mistakes or tried talking respectfully to him, wich caused Ravenwing to feel as if she was taking adventage of the Clan and telling his leader inmmediately.
This also happens during the trial: She dosen't try to own up to her code-breaking or lying, tries to guilttrip Bloomheart, and then inmmediately threathens her Clan by telling them they'll be sorry. How is Oakstar and the other cats supposed to be lenient when all she does is push the blame onto other cats, and not admit her own mistakes?
We don't know about it, but maybe if Mapleshade had acted more like Appledusk and tried admitting she was wrong and asking Oakstar to give her another chance, she would have been treated more lenient.
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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Jun 4, 2022 9:50:18 GMT -5
Any character with the prefix Snow
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Bisexual
#FF00EC
Name Colour
BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ
Villain Enjoyer
Finally reading Wind!
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Jun 4, 2022 9:57:43 GMT -5
Any character with the prefix Snow
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jun 4, 2022 10:15:20 GMT -5
I know it's asking for individuals, but... SkyClan. Just... SkyClan.
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Post by Cheetahstar on Jun 4, 2022 11:05:11 GMT -5
Did Mapleshade even try to exile any better, though? When Ravenwing finds her, she dosen't even try to admit she's at fault for breaking the code. She inmmediately pushes the blame onto her Clan and Frecklewish for beliving the lie, tries to guilttrip Ravenwing, and starts being disrespectful to him. "I have told you nothing" "It's not my fault everyone belived the lie". "These are ThunderClan's kits!" (Guiltripping, right Mapleshade?) She clearly didin't own up to her mistakes or tried talking respectfully to him, wich caused Ravenwing to feel as if she was taking adventage of the Clan and telling his leader inmmediately. This also happens during the trial: She dosen't try to own up to her code-breaking or lying, tries to guilttrip Bloomheart, and then inmmediately threathens her Clan by telling them they'll be sorry. How is Oakstar and the other cats supposed to be lenient when all she does is push the blame onto other cats, and not admit her own mistakes? We don't know about it, but maybe if Mapleshade had acted more like Appledusk and tried admitting she was wrong and asking Oakstar to give her another chance, she would have been treated more lenient. T..They were thunderclan kits, and thus should have been protected by the clan
And Ravenwing was like lol these kits gonna get hurt but idfc LOL. They didnt have to stay but he, as pointed out, could have atleast waited for the storm to pass or ask for an escort
And guilt trip Bloomheart? All she said was like 'hey you know me, I wouldnt try and betray my clan'
Appledusk admitted he was wrong but didnt mean a word of it. Once hes in the clear hes not remoarseful still, just goes straight to lashing out at Maple. He calls his kits mistakes INFRONT OF THEIR BODIES He just wanted to wash his paws of this mess in the least painful way possible I have little doubt that if they survived and Mapleshade asked to stay with em in rc Apple would have sided with Darkstar in chasing em out
Everyone in that book is trash
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Transgender
🌌dapple🌙 (formerly freckle)
I didn't get thunder yet but the one thing I wonder abt has been spoiled so should I still buy?
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Post by 🌌dapple🌙 (formerly freckle) on Jun 4, 2022 11:59:02 GMT -5
Bramblestar getting his body stolen to his wife's creepy ex and being left to wander for an ENTIRE ARC is pretty wrong imo. Wouldn't say he's the most wronged but it's one of the worst WAYS to be wronged
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Jun 4, 2022 13:50:49 GMT -5
Did Mapleshade even try to make her exile any better, though? When Ravenwing finds her, she dosen't even try to admit she's at fault for breaking the code. She inmmediately pushes the blame onto her Clan and Frecklewish for beliving the lie, tries to guilttrip Ravenwing, and starts being disrespectful to him. "I have told you nothing" "It's not my fault everyone belived the lie". "These are ThunderClan's kits!" (Guiltripping, right Mapleshade?) She clearly didin't own up to her mistakes or tried talking respectfully to him, wich caused Ravenwing to feel as if she was taking adventage of the Clan and telling his leader inmmediately. This also happens during the trial: She dosen't try to own up to her code-breaking or lying, tries to guilttrip Bloomheart, and then inmmediately threathens her Clan by telling them they'll be sorry. How is Oakstar and the other cats supposed to be lenient when all she does is push the blame onto other cats, and not admit her own mistakes? We don't know about it, but maybe if Mapleshade had acted more like Appledusk and tried admitting she was wrong and asking Oakstar to give her another chance, she would have been treated more lenient. Except Oakstar would have never accepted the kits because he blamed Appledusk for the death of his son - despite it being an accident. These kits were always doomed. Let's not victim blame. Mapleshade might have gone on to do terrible things, might have been a bit delusional, but the way Thunderclan exiled her was absolutely unacceptable. Oakstar was a bad leader and an overall jerk. Not only does he treat Mapleshade and her CHILDREN terribly, he goes on to attack kittypets over nothing
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2022 18:09:02 GMT -5
Any character with the prefix Snow The amount of truth in this one post
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