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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Oct 14, 2020 21:09:33 GMT -5
^ ive never understood the critique that sandpaw instantly fell for fireheart because he saved her life. it was always clear to me she was like "oh shit this dude who i constantly pick on saved my life, maybe i should re-evaluate how mean i am". and dustpaw and sandpaw's friendship wasn't thrown aside. dustpaw refused to stop being a jerk so sandpaw matured without him. Suddenly and instantly are two different words. Suddenly means for something to happen quickly and unexpectedly, and that's exactly what happened with Sand and Fire's 180 change in relationship. While instantly means for something to happen at once, or immediately, that's something that falls more with a relationship like Clear Sky and Storm. My qualms with Dust ad Sand was that after she got goo-goo eyed with Fire she pretty much stopped having an on-screen friendship with Dust in favor of Fire. If she didn't approve of the way he behaved, that's fine, but it would have at least been more meaningful, and better written if she had been shown talking to him properly about it. Which never happens. She just straight up starts disregarding him and ghosting him, which easily had the opposite effect on Dust's progression as a character for some time. suddenly and instantly are synonyms. they functionally are the same in the constructed use. either way, her romantic feelings aren't weirdly immediate. she acts more friendly to fireheart after he saves her life (sharing tongues is a community experience, not a romantic one), i wouldn't call that going "goo goo" for him. she re-evaluated her relationship to him and decided he deserved more respect and admiration than she gave before. dust and sand's relationship was not the focus of the story by any means. its initial narrative purpose was to create a tangible obstacle to fireheart's acceptance by the clan, with sandstorm's newfound appreciation for fireheart representing the growing clan acceptance, and dustpelt representing those grudging holdovers (until Tigerclaw is exiled). their specific friendship does not hold narrative significance after forest of secrets. sand and dust could very well have had a conversation about it, but because this is fireheart's story, we wouldn't see it. a reader wishing for a specific scene between characters is not indicative of bad writing. a reason for seeing their conversation could be constructive with a narrative purpose, but the narrative does not require it. for this reason, your claim about sand "ghosting" dust is conjecture. unless i'm remembering TPB very differently. i dont recall sand ever purposefully not hanging out with dust, their only spat is when sand defends fireheart. from then on its just shown that sand hangs out with fireheart frequently. i don't know how you somehow interpret her as "disregarding" him from that? EDIT: not directed at you specifically, but i also dont understand when fandom complains that couples get "boring". the narrative shifts to other characters. there is no reason for the story to randomly focus on how much fire and sand love each other. the only reason ships are made relevant again is if there is something new to explore, i.e. drama of some kind. we actually do get little tidbits here and there from other characters' perspective (like cuddling in their nest or sharing tongues), but only when the information is at least incidentally relevant to the protagonist's perspective.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Oct 14, 2020 22:43:19 GMT -5
It is suddenly though, or at least in an incredibly SHORT time span. Sandstorm was antagonistic towards Firestar until half way through book two. She only stopped bullying him because of him saving her. And then literally in the same book she sharing tongues with him, and suddenly making a full 180, even Dust was shocked by it. By the next book, in FoS, she's practically sleeping right next to him in the den not long after becoming a warrior. Her feelings were obvious, the only one that didn't realize it was Firestar himself, which is why you don't really get any ship confirmation for them until the final book. It's a stereotypical trope that's been rehashed a million times in media, and seeing it done with the main pairing of the first series felt dry and boring. And yes, they do lose their personality over time, they become dull cardboard pieces in the background after the first series. Sandstorm plays little to any relevancy until OotS, and even Firestar at least got some focus because of the DF battle and being the fourth cat. The most personality Sandstorm has shown on screen in a long time was literally when she was an elder and had a significant relationship with her grandson before dying. Also just saying Dust and Sand made up doesn't hold any weight tbh, the same with just saying that Fire and Sand's moments were off-screen. If anything that makes it look even worse, because it comes off as straight up lazy writing. Saint Ambrosef literally said the reason as to why Sandstorm pulled a 180. And even then, before she started sharing tongues or sleeping next to Fireheart, she showed signs of nervousness and awkwardness when Dustpelt continued to bully him. The first signs of friendship was when she was put on patrol with Fireheart by themselves, which she then decided to show her friendship and break the awkwardness between them. And so what if she caught feelings quickly? It happens. She got saved by him and started to think, "Hey, maybe this guy isn't so bad after all." Over the next moons, she reflects to herself that she should open up more to Fireheart and starts being friends with him. As far as the trope being stereotypical, so what? That doesn't mean the ship is bad and should immediately be written off. And even though they fade into the background, I highly doubt they lose all their personality from then on (at least not Sandstorm). Then again, I haven't read too far beyond TPB yet so... Sandstorm having no relevancy doesn't make their ship bad, so I don't see what you were going for there. And as far as Dust and Sand, and the off-screen moments, I'm very confused as to how that's lazy writing. Sure, for the moments, they could've included one or more on-screen, but just because they have a low-key relationship doesn't make them a bad ship. They're happy with each other, which is actually one of the things a good ship should be. The last thing I have to say is that Dust and Sand's friendship (from what we saw) mainly relied on bullying Fireheart, so I don't understand why that's a huge detractor. Dustpelt insisted on being a prick, and Sandstorm didn't want to be, so naturally they grew apart. They both knew what the issue was without having to explain it to each other. They might've been good friends before, and that's all well and good, but Dustpelt was a prick until he got with Ferncloud. Dustpelt after TPB was solid. If you're saying "so what" as a response, then why bother replying a refute to my initial opinion in the first place. If I think the pairing was rushed, stereotypical, boring, and lazily written, isn't that really my opinion at the end of the day? And how I personally feel about the pairing? Its how perceive it, how I feel about it, and I really don't see my opinion changing on the matter much either. I really see no reason for you to think things such has "I don't see what you were going for there" when I'm simply stating how I personally feel, not trying to cater others on a subject. You're free to feel how you want about the pairing, but so am I. Please respect that.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2020 22:46:51 GMT -5
Saint Ambrosef literally said the reason as to why Sandstorm pulled a 180. And even then, before she started sharing tongues or sleeping next to Fireheart, she showed signs of nervousness and awkwardness when Dustpelt continued to bully him. The first signs of friendship was when she was put on patrol with Fireheart by themselves, which she then decided to show her friendship and break the awkwardness between them. And so what if she caught feelings quickly? It happens. She got saved by him and started to think, "Hey, maybe this guy isn't so bad after all." Over the next moons, she reflects to herself that she should open up more to Fireheart and starts being friends with him. As far as the trope being stereotypical, so what? That doesn't mean the ship is bad and should immediately be written off. And even though they fade into the background, I highly doubt they lose all their personality from then on (at least not Sandstorm). Then again, I haven't read too far beyond TPB yet so... Sandstorm having no relevancy doesn't make their ship bad, so I don't see what you were going for there. And as far as Dust and Sand, and the off-screen moments, I'm very confused as to how that's lazy writing. Sure, for the moments, they could've included one or more on-screen, but just because they have a low-key relationship doesn't make them a bad ship. They're happy with each other, which is actually one of the things a good ship should be. The last thing I have to say is that Dust and Sand's friendship (from what we saw) mainly relied on bullying Fireheart, so I don't understand why that's a huge detractor. Dustpelt insisted on being a prick, and Sandstorm didn't want to be, so naturally they grew apart. They both knew what the issue was without having to explain it to each other. They might've been good friends before, and that's all well and good, but Dustpelt was a prick until he got with Ferncloud. Dustpelt after TPB was solid. If you're saying "so what" as a response, then why bother replying a refute to my initial opinion in the first place. If I think the pairing was rushed, stereotypical, boring, and lazily written, isn't that really my opinion at the end of the day? And how I personally feel about the pairing? Its how perceive it, how I feel about it, and I really don't see my opinion changing on the matter much either. I really see no reason for you to think things such has "I don't see what you were going for there" when I'm simply stating how I personally feel, not try to cater others on a subject. You're free to feel how you want about the pairing, but so am I. Please respect that. They weren't trying to be disrespectful by saying "so what", Maple. I think you're misunderstanding the tone tbh
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Oct 14, 2020 23:02:30 GMT -5
Suddenly and instantly are two different words. Suddenly means for something to happen quickly and unexpectedly, and that's exactly what happened with Sand and Fire's 180 change in relationship. While instantly means for something to happen at once, or immediately, that's something that falls more with a relationship like Clear Sky and Storm. My qualms with Dust ad Sand was that after she got goo-goo eyed with Fire she pretty much stopped having an on-screen friendship with Dust in favor of Fire. If she didn't approve of the way he behaved, that's fine, but it would have at least been more meaningful, and better written if she had been shown talking to him properly about it. Which never happens. She just straight up starts disregarding him and ghosting him, which easily had the opposite effect on Dust's progression as a character for some time. suddenly and instantly are synonyms. they functionally are the same in the constructed use. either way, her romantic feelings aren't weirdly immediate. she acts more friendly to fireheart after he saves her life (sharing tongues is a community experience, not a romantic one), i wouldn't call that going "goo goo" for him. she re-evaluated her relationship to him and decided he deserved more respect and admiration than she gave before. dust and sand's relationship was not the focus of the story by any means. its initial narrative purpose was to create a tangible obstacle to fireheart's acceptance by the clan, with sandstorm's newfound appreciation for fireheart representing the growing clan acceptance, and dustpelt representing those grudging holdovers (until Tigerclaw is exiled). their specific friendship does not hold narrative significance after forest of secrets. sand and dust could very well have had a conversation about it, but because this is fireheart's story, we wouldn't see it. a reader wishing for a specific scene between characters is not indicative of bad writing. a reason for seeing their conversation could be constructive with a narrative purpose, but the narrative does not require it. for this reason, your claim about sand "ghosting" dust is conjecture. unless i'm remembering TPB very differently. i dont recall sand ever purposefully not hanging out with dust, their only spat is when sand defends fireheart. from then on its just shown that sand hangs out with fireheart frequently. i don't know how you somehow interpret her as "disregarding" him from that? EDIT: not directed at you specifically, but i also dont understand when fandom complains that couples get "boring". the narrative shifts to other characters. there is no reason for the story to randomly focus on how much fire and sand love each other. the only reason ships are made relevant again is if there is something new to explore, i.e. drama of some kind. we actually do get little tidbits here and there from other characters' perspective (like cuddling in their nest or sharing tongues), but only when the information is at least incidentally relevant to the protagonist's perspective. Well then, let me say it using the definitions of the word instead then. To me FireSand felt rushed and lazily written as far as I'm concerned. It didn't feel natural at all, and only even became a thing because of Firestar saving Sandstorm's life. If she had to have a near death experience to have a 180 about her feelings, then I'm just as impressed with the pairing as I was with Hawk and Pebble. So not that much. And for a main pairing, it just makes it look even worse and boring to read about. Just because one thinks the narrative doesn't require such scenes doesn't excuse it from critcism or making it seem less genuinely written. To me, it felt like and obvious elephant in the room that was never addressed, and quietly ignored in favor of centering around and catering to the main protagonist. Even if it is Fireheart's story, it doesn't mean it's ONLY about him. It just makes the story feel like it has less weight, and development from the environment and side characters. This is why so many people hate modern ThunderClan, because of the lack of relationships and side immersion in the story. Some cats don't even have speaking lines. When I say ghosting, I'm using it loosely, same for goo-goo eyed for that matter, but if you need me to be more specific, I'm talking about how the narrative showed how Sand was favoring Fire's company over Dust. We rarely see the two of them hang out any more later in the first series, and even more so in the others. The only significant times, if you can even call them that, were when they were doing minor patrols and such. It's interesting that Gray and Fire's relationship as friends was continuously highlighted, heck even the one they had with Ravenpaw for some time. But the moment the narrative called for Fire to have a love interest after Spotted got iced, Dust and Sand had less on-screen time together. Personally I was never a fan of that, and it was such a boring way to deal with their friendship, cheap even. Fans find a pairing boring because it's just that to them, boring. I thought the narrative would at least show much significance with Sand and Fire later down the series, but it doesn't until OotS, as I said before. And honestly there's really no excuse for FireSand considering every protag going down the line between the first series and OotS were direct descendants of them. From their own daughters, to their own grandchildren. A tidbit line between here and there for over 4 arcs doesn't seem like much imo. But then again, this is just my opinion after all.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Oct 14, 2020 23:14:57 GMT -5
If you're saying "so what" as a response, then why bother replying a refute to my initial opinion in the first place. If I think the pairing was rushed, stereotypical, boring, and lazily written, isn't that really my opinion at the end of the day? And how I personally feel about the pairing? Its how perceive it, how I feel about it, and I really don't see my opinion changing on the matter much either. I really see no reason for you to think things such has "I don't see what you were going for there" when I'm simply stating how I personally feel, not try to cater others on a subject. You're free to feel how you want about the pairing, but so am I. Please respect that. They weren't trying to be disrespectful by saying "so what", Maple. I think you're misunderstanding the tone tbh Then why bother trying to refute my opinion in the first place if they're just going to disregard my response anyways. "As far as the trope being stereotypical, so what? That doesn't mean the ship is bad and should immediately be written off." Yet my opinion on this matter and how I felt about it was so easily written off. But that's fine. "Sandstorm having no relevancy doesn't make their ship bad, so I don't see what you were going for there." Yet I believe it does, so why do I have explain to them "what I was going for here". Honestly, what exactly was the point to all of this in the first place? If you respectfully disagree with someone's opinions, then why try to refute it? What is the objective point of it? Really, I'd like to know? And before you assume, I'm not angry, upset, or annoyed, but do find these rebuttals to be pointless, when it's again...at the end of the day, just my personal opinion on how I feel about the subject. You don't exactly see me jumping onto anyone else's replies and trying to refute their opinions after saying I respectfully disagree with them...? I thought the point of this thread was to express ones own opinions on the subject, that being Fire and Sand's relationship, and also talking about things people thought made it great, and things people thought might have been bad about. I had no idea it was a debate thread.
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Post by highprince on Oct 15, 2020 7:05:51 GMT -5
I love them. The way Sandstorm came to gradually respect Fireheart, and him being completely oblivious to her feelings was cute. Dust and Sand’s friendship seemed to mainly consist of bullying Fire and his friends, and I think it’s good to show that Sandstorm was able to drop a toxic friend. They’re one of the best written relationships in warriors, and I’m really glad they settled their issues like adults instead of having them dredged up arcs after their focus is gone.
If anything, I wish they had another litter. I feel like Squirrel and Leaf never really explored the “pressure from being the child of Firestar” angle, and I think it would’ve been interesting to explore with a son in a later arc.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Oct 15, 2020 10:22:08 GMT -5
suddenly and instantly are synonyms. they functionally are the same in the constructed use. either way, her romantic feelings aren't weirdly immediate. she acts more friendly to fireheart after he saves her life (sharing tongues is a community experience, not a romantic one), i wouldn't call that going "goo goo" for him. she re-evaluated her relationship to him and decided he deserved more respect and admiration than she gave before. dust and sand's relationship was not the focus of the story by any means. its initial narrative purpose was to create a tangible obstacle to fireheart's acceptance by the clan, with sandstorm's newfound appreciation for fireheart representing the growing clan acceptance, and dustpelt representing those grudging holdovers (until Tigerclaw is exiled). their specific friendship does not hold narrative significance after forest of secrets. sand and dust could very well have had a conversation about it, but because this is fireheart's story, we wouldn't see it. a reader wishing for a specific scene between characters is not indicative of bad writing. a reason for seeing their conversation could be constructive with a narrative purpose, but the narrative does not require it. for this reason, your claim about sand "ghosting" dust is conjecture. unless i'm remembering TPB very differently. i dont recall sand ever purposefully not hanging out with dust, their only spat is when sand defends fireheart. from then on its just shown that sand hangs out with fireheart frequently. i don't know how you somehow interpret her as "disregarding" him from that? EDIT: not directed at you specifically, but i also dont understand when fandom complains that couples get "boring". the narrative shifts to other characters. there is no reason for the story to randomly focus on how much fire and sand love each other. the only reason ships are made relevant again is if there is something new to explore, i.e. drama of some kind. we actually do get little tidbits here and there from other characters' perspective (like cuddling in their nest or sharing tongues), but only when the information is at least incidentally relevant to the protagonist's perspective. Well then, let me say it using the definitions of the word instead then. To me FireSand felt rushed and lazily written as far as I'm concerned. It didn't feel natural at all, and only even became a thing because of Firestar saving Sandstorm's life. If she had to have a near death experience to have a 180 about her feelings, then I'm just as impressed with the pairing as I was with Hawk and Pebble. So not that much. And for a main pairing, it just makes it look even worse and boring to read about. Just because one thinks the narrative doesn't require such scenes doesn't excuse it from critcism or making it seem less genuinely written. To me, it felt like and obvious elephant in the room that was never addressed, and quietly ignored in favor of centering around and catering to the main protagonist. Even if it is Fireheart's story, it doesn't mean it's ONLY about him. It just makes the story feel like it has less weight, and development from the environment and side characters. This is why so many people hate modern ThunderClan, because of the lack of relationships and side immersion in the story. Some cats don't even have speaking lines. When I say ghosting, I'm using it loosely, same for goo-goo eyed for that matter, but if you need me to be more specific, I'm talking about how the narrative showed how Sand was favoring Fire's company over Dust. We rarely see the two of them hang out any more later in the first series, and even more so in the others. The only significant times, if you can even call them that, were when they were doing minor patrols and such. It's interesting that Gray and Fire's relationship as friends was continuously highlighted, heck even the one they had with Ravenpaw for some time. But the moment the narrative called for Fire to have a love interest after Spotted got iced, Dust and Sand had less on-screen time together. Personally I was never a fan of that, and it was such a boring way to deal with their friendship, cheap even. Fans find a pairing boring because it's just that to them, boring. I thought the narrative would at least show much significance with Sand and Fire later down the series, but it doesn't until OotS, as I said before. And honestly there's really no excuse for FireSand considering every protag going down the line between the first series and OotS were direct descendants of them. From their own daughters, to their own grandchildren. A tidbit line between here and there for over 4 arcs doesn't seem like much imo. But then again, this is just my opinion after all. i mean, my whole point was that there isn't a reason for dust x sand relationship to be shown after it stopped affecting fireheart, so using graystripe and ravenpaw as an example doesn't make sense because they continue to have a lot of plot relevance. i just don't think there's any point to showing the details of dustxsand's crumbling friendship besides a few fans wanting to know how it went down. good books are tightly written. if it doesn't serve the plot, it doesn't belong in the story, imo. that doesn't mean side characters shouldn't have personalities, just that the nit n' grit of their personal lives don't need focus. i don't mind if fans find pairs boring, what i don't understand is why they expected differently. could you give some examples of specific things you would have liked to seen from firexsand, and where it would fit in amongst the plot without distracting the protagonist's story?
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Oct 15, 2020 12:43:03 GMT -5
Well then, let me say it using the definitions of the word instead then. To me FireSand felt rushed and lazily written as far as I'm concerned. It didn't feel natural at all, and only even became a thing because of Firestar saving Sandstorm's life. If she had to have a near death experience to have a 180 about her feelings, then I'm just as impressed with the pairing as I was with Hawk and Pebble. So not that much. And for a main pairing, it just makes it look even worse and boring to read about. Just because one thinks the narrative doesn't require such scenes doesn't excuse it from critcism or making it seem less genuinely written. To me, it felt like and obvious elephant in the room that was never addressed, and quietly ignored in favor of centering around and catering to the main protagonist. Even if it is Fireheart's story, it doesn't mean it's ONLY about him. It just makes the story feel like it has less weight, and development from the environment and side characters. This is why so many people hate modern ThunderClan, because of the lack of relationships and side immersion in the story. Some cats don't even have speaking lines. When I say ghosting, I'm using it loosely, same for goo-goo eyed for that matter, but if you need me to be more specific, I'm talking about how the narrative showed how Sand was favoring Fire's company over Dust. We rarely see the two of them hang out any more later in the first series, and even more so in the others. The only significant times, if you can even call them that, were when they were doing minor patrols and such. It's interesting that Gray and Fire's relationship as friends was continuously highlighted, heck even the one they had with Ravenpaw for some time. But the moment the narrative called for Fire to have a love interest after Spotted got iced, Dust and Sand had less on-screen time together. Personally I was never a fan of that, and it was such a boring way to deal with their friendship, cheap even. Fans find a pairing boring because it's just that to them, boring. I thought the narrative would at least show much significance with Sand and Fire later down the series, but it doesn't until OotS, as I said before. And honestly there's really no excuse for FireSand considering every protag going down the line between the first series and OotS were direct descendants of them. From their own daughters, to their own grandchildren. A tidbit line between here and there for over 4 arcs doesn't seem like much imo. But then again, this is just my opinion after all. i mean, my whole point was that there isn't a reason for dust x sand relationship to be shown after it stopped affecting fireheart, so using graystripe and ravenpaw as an example doesn't make sense because they continue to have a lot of plot relevance. i just don't think there's any point to showing the details of dustxsand's crumbling friendship besides a few fans wanting to know how it went down. good books are tightly written. if it doesn't serve the plot, it doesn't belong in the story, imo. that doesn't mean side characters shouldn't have personalities, just that the nit n' grit of their personal lives don't need focus. i don't mind if fans find pairs boring, what i don't understand is why they expected differently. could you give some examples of specific things you would have liked to seen from firexsand, and where it would fit in amongst the plot without distracting the protagonist's story? Hm...sorry if I hadn't replied yet, but no one usually asks me things like that, especially concerning these two, or don't bother at all, so I was a bit surprised. I suppose I personally would have liked it better if there was more from Fire's side of things if anything. As the main protagonist it would have been nice to see a better friendship bud between Sand and Fire, and not only after he saves her. Also for Firestar, or at least Firepaw/Fireheart, to be less passive when it came to Sand's bullying. He wasn't notably shown standing up for himself, he'd always just either take it, try and ignore it, or had someone else stand up for him instead, like Graypaw. I don't think it's just how he is as a character, because he's shown having no problem standing up for Ravenpaw, or calling out Graystripe's behavior, etc. But he always felt so passive with Sand and Dust's behavior, he at least stood up to Longtail when he first showed up, and even Yellowfang when he first meets her. I found those relationships to be more interesting and endearing to read about. But there wasn't much from his relationship with Sand and Dust.
I guess the other reason I wasn't too fond of it was because of the whole, "they bully you so they must like you" deep down type of stuff. At a young age, reading this, it felt like that, but as I got older I came to dislike it. It would have held more weight if Sandstorm came realize over time just how much her behavior was uncalled for, and even possibly hurting Firestar. And even her genuinely feeling guilt and apologizing for what she did would have been nice too, but we never really got that. It felt like a missed opportunity, imo. If it had happened, then I can see the idea of them being more natural with one another, like Firestar acknowledging her apology, and her turning her life around on her own as a character while maturing. They'd show more individualism that way, and seeing each other in a different light, as oppose to the "you rescued me omg" thing.
Also, again, Fire's side of this romance felt so muted. I guess it's because of the Spottedleaf drama? But the fact that he was also so oblivious to Sand's feelings until it was spelled out for him was pretty...meh to me. Personally I would have written Spotted and Fire's romance out completely, and make her out to be more of her just being a good friend to him. Maybe even one of the first friends he makes in the clan next to Ravenpaw and Graypaw, would have been nice. Imo it would have gave her death more weight, and also axe out any of that unnecessary love drama.
I don't mind Cinderpelt still having feelings for Firestar, but I feel like it could have been written better, especially love triangle wise. Cinderpelt's feelings never exactly reached surface level because of her injury and then later becoming a medicine cat. But the rival between her and Sandstorm was obvious, just that Fire was too oblivious to see it though. I feel like if Cinderpelt's injury had happened near the end of her apprenticeship, it would have held more significance. Because she would have had a developed relationship with Firestar, before becoming a meddie. I like the idea of this more because this could show more opportunities of Sand being uneasy and awkward because of her jealousy and rivalry with Cinder. But this could also be a opportunity for Firestar to distinguish how he felt about Cinder vs how he felt about Sand, and a better exploration on his budding feelings for her while also showing a good contrast to the readers as well.
Also Cinderpelt playing cupid is fine, but I rather it wasn't her outright telling Firestar about Sand's feelings. It would have felt more natural if he came to the conclusion and realization himself. And bringing more of a mutual full circle to the confession scenes in the last book of the first series.
When it comes to Dustpelt, I guess I would have also liked if he was fleshed out more properly, and still sustained a friendship with Sand, but at least a more healthier one. In fact, it would have been nice to see him play wing man to Firestar, I guess in his own way, and acting like a know it all because he'll be in a relationship with Ferncloud by then. (Speaking of that, I wished they had shown him having interest in Fern romantically later on and not while she was an apprentice. I get it they're cats, and they don't care, but as a kid I thought it was weird, and to this day it sticks with me.) I personally would have liked to see Dust changing as a character because of Sand and her relationship with Fire. Something like him confronting her about her gradual change of heart, and she turns it around on him, and leaving him behind while the times change. Dust not wanting their friendship to end, but also struggling with his dislike toward Fire, could have been a nice hurdle to see. And then in the end they find a mutual respect for one another, I guess similar to Longtail and Firestar, and Dustpelt matures better as a character. Not because of his envy and displeasure toward Sand favoring Firestar, but because he realizes his actions are affecting things he cared about, like his relationship with his friends.
Lastly, when it comes to the drama in the SE concerning Spottedleaf, I guess it can still stay, but more so as a misunderstanding. Like Sandstorm being upset about Spotted constantly visiting Fire, and Fire missing her, so she assumes he was in love with her. But instead of this actually being true, like in canon, it's more so that Fire misses her as a friend, because she was one of his first friends in the clan, and she was still looking over him. Ya know, properly, like a StarClan cat should, while he going through his stages of development as a character. And to back that up, it can also apply to the fact that Fire was apart of her Fire prophecy, and that can be the base of their connection for their friendship, and why she was so nice and open to him joining. Once things are cleared up with Sand, the two of them could reaffirm their feelings because of the journey to StarClan, at least in a much more satisfying manner. Also none of that bs about killing Spotted later because they don't want Fire to have to choose between her and Sand. Just leave it at her wanting him to be happy for Fire so she was willing to die protecting the one he cared about the most. Honestly that would have made it much more honorable, and make FireSand seem less fragile.
As for the in between of the series, it would have been nice to see way more scenes of the two of them being loving mates with one another. And not just them sharing nest, or sharing tongues, like that much will be obvious because they're mates and whatnot. But what about them doting over their family together; their daughter and their grandkits. It would have been wonderful to see them have relationships with them like how Sand did with Alder, but while they're still in their prime. Also even more details like Sand and Fire fighting together in battle ad protecting one another. Or the two of them defending their family during very important plot scenes, like the Hollyleaf gathering for example. I would have been nice to see more details like this, even if they're not the main focus anymore. Honestly, I wouldn't even be oppose to them having a second litter, with a son, if they had did things like this more throughout the series. And maybe their family interacting with other cats like Gray and Dust, and them telling them about how Fire and Sand used to be like when they were younger, etc. I don't know...it just felt like it would have been more genuine this way.
These are just my opinions by the way. I just think that if Fire and Sand had so much development as many claimed, there really wouldn't have been any reason not to flesh them out better. Or execute their relationship in a much more interesting manner. But that's just my opinion tbh...
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Post by fire on Oct 15, 2020 15:12:49 GMT -5
They weren't trying to be disrespectful by saying "so what", Maple. I think you're misunderstanding the tone tbh Then why bother trying to refute my opinion in the first place if they're just going to disregard my response anyways. "As far as the trope being stereotypical, so what? That doesn't mean the ship is bad and should immediately be written off." Yet my opinion on this matter and how I felt about it was so easily written off. But that's fine. "Sandstorm having no relevancy doesn't make their ship bad, so I don't see what you were going for there." Yet I believe it does, so why do I have explain to them "what I was going for here". Honestly, what exactly was the point to all of this in the first place? If you respectfully disagree with someone's opinions, then why try to refute it? What is the objective point of it? Really, I'd like to know? And before you assume, I'm not angry, upset, or annoyed, but do find these rebuttals to be pointless, when it's again...at the end of the day, just my personal opinion on how I feel about the subject. You don't exactly see me jumping onto anyone else's replies and trying to refute their opinions after saying I respectfully disagree with them...? I thought the point of this thread was to express ones own opinions on the subject, that being Fire and Sand's relationship, and also talking about things people thought made it great, and things people thought might have been bad about. I had no idea it was a debate thread. When I say I respectfully disagree, that means that I disagree with what you're saying and here's why, but with respect so that it doesn't get to anything serious. The whole point of refuting something is because you don't agree with it. It seems there was a lot of misinterpretation, or least different interpretation in this debate. All in all, that's your opinion, and I respect that, and I won't try to bully you into agreeing with me. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Have a good one.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Oct 15, 2020 18:28:55 GMT -5
Then why bother trying to refute my opinion in the first place if they're just going to disregard my response anyways. "As far as the trope being stereotypical, so what? That doesn't mean the ship is bad and should immediately be written off." Yet my opinion on this matter and how I felt about it was so easily written off. But that's fine. "Sandstorm having no relevancy doesn't make their ship bad, so I don't see what you were going for there." Yet I believe it does, so why do I have explain to them "what I was going for here". Honestly, what exactly was the point to all of this in the first place? If you respectfully disagree with someone's opinions, then why try to refute it? What is the objective point of it? Really, I'd like to know? And before you assume, I'm not angry, upset, or annoyed, but do find these rebuttals to be pointless, when it's again...at the end of the day, just my personal opinion on how I feel about the subject. You don't exactly see me jumping onto anyone else's replies and trying to refute their opinions after saying I respectfully disagree with them...? I thought the point of this thread was to express ones own opinions on the subject, that being Fire and Sand's relationship, and also talking about things people thought made it great, and things people thought might have been bad about. I had no idea it was a debate thread. When I say I respectfully disagree, that means that I disagree with what you're saying and here's why, but with respect so that it doesn't get to anything serious. The whole point of refuting something is because you don't agree with it. It seems there was a lot of misinterpretation, or least different interpretation in this debate. All in all, that's your opinion, and I respect that, and I won't try to bully you into agreeing with me. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Have a good one. The problem is that, I was simply expressing how I personally felt about the subject at hand. I never said my opinion was the only acceptable truth, or to be treated as the only right opinion. It was just how I felt, my thoughts and feelings on the matter, and how I perceived the SandFire relationship. If I said something that clearly went against canon, like saying Sand and Fire never interacted and just became mates, then yes, I can see why it would be refuted. Because this is clearly a wrong statement, and Sand and Fire did indeed canonly interacted before becoming mates. But that wasn't the case. What I said instead, for example, was to me the relationship felt rushed and not as genuine or properly written. But this is my opinion based on my perspective and experience while reading the series. And surely this is something that will be different for each person. However there is no need for refutation at all when it comes to subjective opinions, because there isn't any universal truth when it comes to subjective views. There was never a need for refutation, because the point of making a refute is to prove, a statement or theory, to be wrong or false, because you disapprove it. So basically even though you're claiming you respect my opinion, and also respectfully disagree, you still turned around and tried to refute my subjective opinion. You probably didn't mean to do this, but nonetheless it still happened. Also, I wasn't aware this was a debate thread, because from the impression I got from the original post, I was sure it was just an opinion thread. I wasn't expecting for my personal opinions on a subject to be suddenly debated and refuted meaninglessly. Especially when I never openly expressed for such either...
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Post by Fernshiine on Oct 15, 2020 19:35:13 GMT -5
I liked watching how Firestar slowly won over the prickly she-cat :3
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Post by fire on Oct 15, 2020 19:38:53 GMT -5
When I say I respectfully disagree, that means that I disagree with what you're saying and here's why, but with respect so that it doesn't get to anything serious. The whole point of refuting something is because you don't agree with it. It seems there was a lot of misinterpretation, or least different interpretation in this debate. All in all, that's your opinion, and I respect that, and I won't try to bully you into agreeing with me. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Have a good one. The problem is that, I was simply expressing how I personally felt about the subject at hand. I never said my opinion was the only acceptable truth, or to be treated as the only right opinion. It was just how I felt, my thoughts and feelings on the matter, and how I perceived the SandFire relationship. If I said something that clearly went against canon, like saying Sand and Fire never interacted and just became mates, then yes, I can see why it would be refuted. Because this is clearly a wrong statement, and Sand and Fire did indeed canonly interacted before becoming mates. But that wasn't the case. What I said instead, for example, was to me the relationship felt rushed and not as genuine or properly written. But this is my opinion based on my perspective and experience while reading the series. And surely this is something that will be different for each person. However there is no need for refutation at all when it comes to subjective opinions, because there isn't any universal truth when it comes to subjective views. There was never a need for refutation, because the point of making a refute is to prove, a statement or theory, to be wrong or false, because you disapprove it. So basically even though you're claiming you respect my opinion, and also respectfully disagree, you still turned around and tried to refute my subjective opinion. You probably didn't mean to do this, but nonetheless it still happened. Also, I wasn't aware this was a debate thread, because from the impression I got from the original post, I was sure it was just an opinion thread. I wasn't expecting for my personal opinions on a subject to be suddenly debated and refuted meaninglessly. Especially when I never openly expressed for such either... That's my bad. I guess I was just eager to debate something. When disagreeing, you try to refute something, so that "respectfully disagree" part was just a precursor to let you know that it wasn't meant to be insulting. I probably got carried away, so my bad. It is your opinion that their relationship isn't as good as I think it is, and I respect that. My bad for trying to turn it into a debate thread.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Oct 16, 2020 13:11:46 GMT -5
i mean, my whole point was that there isn't a reason for dust x sand relationship to be shown after it stopped affecting fireheart, so using graystripe and ravenpaw as an example doesn't make sense because they continue to have a lot of plot relevance. i just don't think there's any point to showing the details of dustxsand's crumbling friendship besides a few fans wanting to know how it went down. good books are tightly written. if it doesn't serve the plot, it doesn't belong in the story, imo. that doesn't mean side characters shouldn't have personalities, just that the nit n' grit of their personal lives don't need focus. i don't mind if fans find pairs boring, what i don't understand is why they expected differently. could you give some examples of specific things you would have liked to seen from firexsand, and where it would fit in amongst the plot without distracting the protagonist's story? Hm...sorry if I hadn't replied yet, but no one usually asks me things like that, especially concerning these two, or don't bother at all, so I was a bit surprised. I suppose I personally would have liked it better if there was more from Fire's side of things if anything. As the main protagonist it would have been nice to see a better friendship bud between Sand and Fire, and not only after he saves her. Also for Firestar, or at least Firepaw/Fireheart, to be less passive when it came to Sand's bullying. He wasn't notably shown standing up for himself, he'd always just either take it, try and ignore it, or had someone else stand up for him instead, like Graypaw. I don't think it's just how he is as a character, because he's shown having no problem standing up for Ravenpaw, or calling out Graystripe's behavior, etc. But he always felt so passive with Sand and Dust's behavior, he at least stood up to Longtail when he first showed up, and even Yellowfang when he first meets her. I found those relationships to be more interesting and endearing to read about. But there wasn't much from his relationship with Sand and Dust.
I guess the other reason I wasn't too fond of it was because of the whole, "they bully you so they must like you" deep down type of stuff. At a young age, reading this, it felt like that, but as I got older I came to dislike it. It would have held more weight if Sandstorm came realize over time just how much her behavior was uncalled for, and even possibly hurting Firestar. And even her genuinely feeling guilt and apologizing for what she did would have been nice too, but we never really got that. It felt like a missed opportunity, imo. If it had happened, then I can see the idea of them being more natural with one another, like Firestar acknowledging her apology, and her turning her life around on her own as a character while maturing. They'd show more individualism that way, and seeing each other in a different light, as oppose to the "you rescued me omg" thing.
Also, again, Fire's side of this romance felt so muted. I guess it's because of the Spottedleaf drama? But the fact that he was also so oblivious to Sand's feelings until it was spelled out for him was pretty...meh to me. Personally I would have written Spotted and Fire's romance out completely, and make her out to be more of her just being a good friend to him. Maybe even one of the first friends he makes in the clan next to Ravenpaw and Graypaw, would have been nice. Imo it would have gave her death more weight, and also axe out any of that unnecessary love drama.
I don't mind Cinderpelt still having feelings for Firestar, but I feel like it could have been written better, especially love triangle wise. Cinderpelt's feelings never exactly reached surface level because of her injury and then later becoming a medicine cat. But the rival between her and Sandstorm was obvious, just that Fire was too oblivious to see it though. I feel like if Cinderpelt's injury had happened near the end of her apprenticeship, it would have held more significance. Because she would have had a developed relationship with Firestar, before becoming a meddie. I like the idea of this more because this could show more opportunities of Sand being uneasy and awkward because of her jealousy and rivalry with Cinder. But this could also be a opportunity for Firestar to distinguish how he felt about Cinder vs how he felt about Sand, and a better exploration on his budding feelings for her while also showing a good contrast to the readers as well.
Also Cinderpelt playing cupid is fine, but I rather it wasn't her outright telling Firestar about Sand's feelings. It would have felt more natural if he came to the conclusion and realization himself. And bringing more of a mutual full circle to the confession scenes in the last book of the first series.
When it comes to Dustpelt, I guess I would have also liked if he was fleshed out more properly, and still sustained a friendship with Sand, but at least a more healthier one. In fact, it would have been nice to see him play wing man to Firestar, I guess in his own way, and acting like a know it all because he'll be in a relationship with Ferncloud by then. (Speaking of that, I wished they had shown him having interest in Fern romantically later on and not while she was an apprentice. I get it they're cats, and they don't care, but as a kid I thought it was weird, and to this day it sticks with me.) I personally would have liked to see Dust changing as a character because of Sand and her relationship with Fire. Something like him confronting her about her gradual change of heart, and she turns it around on him, and leaving him behind while the times change. Dust not wanting their friendship to end, but also struggling with his dislike toward Fire, could have been a nice hurdle to see. And then in the end they find a mutual respect for one another, I guess similar to Longtail and Firestar, and Dustpelt matures better as a character. Not because of his envy and displeasure toward Sand favoring Firestar, but because he realizes his actions are affecting things he cared about, like his relationship with his friends.
Lastly, when it comes to the drama in the SE concerning Spottedleaf, I guess it can still stay, but more so as a misunderstanding. Like Sandstorm being upset about Spotted constantly visiting Fire, and Fire missing her, so she assumes he was in love with her. But instead of this actually being true, like in canon, it's more so that Fire misses her as a friend, because she was one of his first friends in the clan, and she was still looking over him. Ya know, properly, like a StarClan cat should, while he going through his stages of development as a character. And to back that up, it can also apply to the fact that Fire was apart of her Fire prophecy, and that can be the base of their connection for their friendship, and why she was so nice and open to him joining. Once things are cleared up with Sand, the two of them could reaffirm their feelings because of the journey to StarClan, at least in a much more satisfying manner. Also none of that bs about killing Spotted later because they don't want Fire to have to choose between her and Sand. Just leave it at her wanting him to be happy for Fire so she was willing to die protecting the one he cared about the most. Honestly that would have made it much more honorable, and make FireSand seem less fragile.
As for the in between of the series, it would have been nice to see way more scenes of the two of them being loving mates with one another. And not just them sharing nest, or sharing tongues, like that much will be obvious because they're mates and whatnot. But what about them doting over their family together; their daughter and their grandkits. It would have been wonderful to see them have relationships with them like how Sand did with Alder, but while they're still in their prime. Also even more details like Sand and Fire fighting together in battle ad protecting one another. Or the two of them defending their family during very important plot scenes, like the Hollyleaf gathering for example. I would have been nice to see more details like this, even if they're not the main focus anymore. Honestly, I wouldn't even be oppose to them having a second litter, with a son, if they had did things like this more throughout the series. And maybe their family interacting with other cats like Gray and Dust, and them telling them about how Fire and Sand used to be like when they were younger, etc. I don't know...it just felt like it would have been more genuine this way.
These are just my opinions by the way. I just think that if Fire and Sand had so much development as many claimed, there really wouldn't have been any reason not to flesh them out better. Or execute their relationship in a much more interesting manner. But that's just my opinion tbh... I think those are fair opinions, and would be interesting to see in canon. I think the difference between you and I is that I don't see those sort of details as necessary for them to have a good relationship, even if I think it would be more engaging and in-depth with the details you suggest. You seem to see a lot of potential in how it could be better, so it's harder to enjoy what there is as a result-- which is very fair. I'm that way with books too. I think I just manage my expectations given it's meant for 12 year olds, so I set the bar lower than I might with other YA. Also, a personal opinion, but I always liked Firestar's obliviousness. I found it amusing and relatable, because that's exactly how I am with guys. About them showing more family bonding--yeah, I agree. But I think that's more of a series-wide issue of neglecting familial relationships than limited to this pairing, so I don't hold it against the ship in particular so much as the general narrative. I always like to hear what specific things people would have liked to see instead. It's easy as a reader to say we don't like something, but it takes more thought and consideration to offer an alternative.
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