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Post by *Ottersplash* on Jul 22, 2020 18:49:55 GMT -5
I don't think Thornclaw was just being butthurt and whiny over of being passed up for deputy. I saw it as a combination of wanting to be deputy himself at some point but Firekin (Bramblestar? idk) getting the rank. Then all the high ranks being held by Firestar's line (at one point there were three medicine cats, all related to him) for years on end. All the prophecies and fame went to the Firefam. When he had children of his own I suppose he was aware of the nepotism (it sounded like he had that rant prepared for a while) and deep down Thornclaw knew that his kids would never get recognition or amount to anything more than a warrior, and he reasonably thought they would be skimmed over for leadership positions in favour of someone in Firestar's bloodline, no matter how hard they worked: I don't like how he was talking about Squirrelflight and the slandering of her in general, but I definitely feel for Thornclaw. I think there's pain behind his words, especially since his son just died. And we see that he is not the only cat in the Clan who thinks this way. Even Greystripe acknowledged that he was right. (Did I just do a character analysis for THORNCLAW lmao)The real travesty is that they killed off his child who could have made a good leader
Like, Stemstar COULD have been AMAZING.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jul 22, 2020 18:52:21 GMT -5
Thornclaw is a weird case where he can throw out blatantly deluded logic and have people nodding along as if he's making any sense. His talk about nepotism doesn't actually make any sense, and that's because he has no good alternative. The cats who are in positions of power are in positions of power due to lack of any better alternatives. If Graystripe's theory that Thornclaw himself wants to be deputy now is true, then it makes it worse because I can think of few worse candidates for leader than Thornclaw at the moment. If the theory is not true, then Thornclaw comes off as even more deluded for having zero plans as a replacement. It's all well and good to rant and complain about nepotism, but who else is willing to step up that isn't related to Firestar? Molewhisker and Cherryfall are literally the only options that wouldn't be awful, and those two haven't exactly sold anyone on any particularly great acts either. Besides, they trained Bramblestar's kits, so by association I'm sure one can make the argument that it's a nepotistic choice. I've already seen that kind of goal post moving happen to Skyclan, so I'm sure it'd happen to them too. The problem with Thornclaw's argument is that if you look hard enough, you can find connections in anything. For example, most of the villains in the series have been tabbies, does this mean there's some secret cabal of tabbies working against the clans? No, it does not. Coincidences exist. In any case, does any of this make Thornclaw a bad character? Absolutely not, he's always been headstrong and the situation is so desperate that him lashing out like this is pathetic but makes sense. When he voiced his disagreement it wasn't with any kind of bootlicking like Scorchfur, and so he remains sympathetic despite his less than good way of responding to the situation. I just think that the "actually Thornclaw has a good point" lacks water for many reasons I've gone into on many other threads. See Lady of Fandoms' point - the problem isn't that Lionblaze isn't a good pick, the problem is that the authors write a universe in which nepotism is right and only one family really is capable of leading. Even if another family led, I have reason to believe that would do nothing to alleviate the complaint. I mentioned Skyclan because what I saw with them mirrored this situation, exactly. There were endless complaints about how they, as a clan with little attention, deserved more attention. What happened when they got more attention? Those very same people now began to complain that they were getting too much attention and it was unfair. The argument about some background element not getting enough attention is almost never made because anyone actually LIKES the background element. It's usually made out of dislike for a more main element, the problem being that when that background element is raised up it wasn't liked to begin with and so outside of being a stick to whack the main element with there wasn't much support afterwards. In so far as the authors writing such a universe, what they wrote is a universe where populations are tiny and genetic diversity is actively discouraged, this was going to always end up happening from the very beginning. In a system like Warriors you're inevitably going to end up with situations where clans are so close to one another that you can justify anything as nepotism. Molewhisker and Cherryfall were mentors to Squirrelflight's kids, for instance, and they are the foremost candidates I hear being promoted. This is no strike against them nor should it be, because with a small population everyone ends up related in some way to everybody.
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Post by Jaysnow on Jul 22, 2020 18:56:07 GMT -5
He should just die already. I get he's lost a lot, but he doesn't need to be a complete jerk about everything.
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Heterosexual
Spinestar
Got The Ashfur Tattoo!
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Post by Spinestar on Jul 22, 2020 18:56:42 GMT -5
He should just die already. I get he's lost a lot, but he doesn't need to be a complete jerk about everything. He was pretty good in TST
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Post by Jaysnow on Jul 22, 2020 18:59:13 GMT -5
He should just die already. I get he's lost a lot, but he doesn't need to be a complete jerk about everything. He was pretty good in TST That I agree with, but from the way he's behaving in GV seems like he's back to square one.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 22, 2020 20:43:14 GMT -5
Gonna sound like an echo, but just because a cat is super background or not "qualified" for deputy doesn't mean they can't be given the position and developed afterward. I couldn't even tell you one thing Ashfoot said or did before Onestar chose her, but as the books progress we see her become a compassionate, level-headed and a strong deputy (easily one of the top ones). Russetfur was also some rando, picked between books iirc. Her personality isn't as nice as Ashfoot, she still got focus and had a good presence. honestly this would be one of the few acceptable times for retcon. have lionblaze/whoever in their den thinking carefully about their deputy appointment. "molewhisker popped to mind. he was popular with his clanmates, not to mention a well-respected senior warrior, good-humored, and level-headed." when s/he gets appointed, narration notes lots of cats approve. this sort of thing has happened multiple times already in the series, like with lionheart and ashfoot. it's really all you need. the more i think about it the more like the idea of molestar
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 22, 2020 21:04:55 GMT -5
Gonna sound like an echo, but just because a cat is super background or not "qualified" for deputy doesn't mean they can't be given the position and developed afterward. I couldn't even tell you one thing Ashfoot said or did before Onestar chose her, but as the books progress we see her become a compassionate, level-headed and a strong deputy (easily one of the top ones). Russetfur was also some rando, picked between books iirc. Her personality isn't as nice as Ashfoot, she still got focus and had a good presence. cloverfoot and harespring were nobodies and became good leading figures. and harespring was even one of the apprentices who popped into existence from nowhere (he has no kin listed in the wiki so theres no family to tie him to being "important" in anyway before becoming deputy)
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