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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 21, 2020 19:09:50 GMT -5
what's ur feelings on how thornclaw was portrayed in the preview we got?
i feel very bad for him. he was very old when he finally got a mate and had kits, so of course losing one of those kits will hurt him very deeply. he's old and has lost a lot over the years.
i also LOVE that thornclaw said what i've been saying for years in this fandom lol that thunderclan has a major firestar nepotism b*ner.
i wish more cats would talk about it and realize it.
thornclaw is right and lionblaze is just salty
like imagine a thunderclan cat not inside of firestar's line had a kit and the kit was like "i wanna be leader someday!" imagine how heartbroken their parent would feel to tell them "we're not related to lionblaze/cloudtail, im afraid your chances are slim."
like does no one else get sad about that?
nepotism in thunderclan is heartbreaking when you think about it. if you're not a kit of a firestar kin member, then you'll literally die without ever having any power or having any of your blood in power unless your kit gets with a firestar kin kit and their kits get the next power...it's depressing.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 21, 2020 19:11:11 GMT -5
I actually agree with you, I'm starting to like him, it's a shame he's so far in his age though.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 21, 2020 19:14:25 GMT -5
I actually agree with you, I'm starting to like him, it's a shame he's so far in his age though. same for me. it's a shame im only starting to like some characters when they're either dead or very old. thornclaw calling out the nepotism to lionblaze's face make me like thornclaw soooo much!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2020 19:16:17 GMT -5
He actually seemed pretty in character from the small bits we've seen of him, and it's great to see him finally get more characterization on top of that. I don't think Lionblaze being chosen was nepotism, I think he was the best choice at the time, but Thornclaw does have a point.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 21, 2020 19:17:23 GMT -5
He actually seemed pretty in character from the small bits we've seen of him, and it's great to see him finally get more characterization on top of that. I don't think Lionblaze being chosen was nepotism, I think he was the best choice at the time, but Thornclaw does have a point. just the mere fact that the "best choice" is a firekin is nepotism in itself because the writers only make firekin or tigerkin the "most qualified" due to giving them more scenes, apprentices, and spotlight lol
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2020 19:25:00 GMT -5
He actually seemed pretty in character from the small bits we've seen of him, and it's great to see him finally get more characterization on top of that. I don't think Lionblaze being chosen was nepotism, I think he was the best choice at the time, but Thornclaw does have a point. just the mere fact that the "best choice" is a firekin is nepotism in itself because the writers only make firekin or tigerkin the "most qualified" due to giving them more scenes, apprentices, and spotlight lol Oh man, you're right, I didn't think about that.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jul 21, 2020 19:29:22 GMT -5
Thornclaw is a weird case where he can throw out blatantly deluded logic and have people nodding along as if he's making any sense. His talk about nepotism doesn't actually make any sense, and that's because he has no good alternative. The cats who are in positions of power are in positions of power due to lack of any better alternatives. If Graystripe's theory that Thornclaw himself wants to be deputy now is true, then it makes it worse because I can think of few worse candidates for leader than Thornclaw at the moment. If the theory is not true, then Thornclaw comes off as even more deluded for having zero plans as a replacement. It's all well and good to rant and complain about nepotism, but who else is willing to step up that isn't related to Firestar? Molewhisker and Cherryfall are literally the only options that wouldn't be awful, and those two haven't exactly sold anyone on any particularly great acts either. Besides, they trained Bramblestar's kits, so by association I'm sure one can make the argument that it's a nepotistic choice. I've already seen that kind of goal post moving happen to Skyclan, so I'm sure it'd happen to them too.
The problem with Thornclaw's argument is that if you look hard enough, you can find connections in anything. For example, most of the villains in the series have been tabbies, does this mean there's some secret cabal of tabbies working against the clans? No, it does not. Coincidences exist.
In any case, does any of this make Thornclaw a bad character? Absolutely not, he's always been headstrong and the situation is so desperate that him lashing out like this is pathetic but makes sense. When he voiced his disagreement it wasn't with any kind of bootlicking like Scorchfur, and so he remains sympathetic despite his less than good way of responding to the situation. I just think that the "actually Thornclaw has a good point" lacks water for many reasons I've gone into on many other threads.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 21, 2020 19:37:48 GMT -5
Thornclaw is a weird case where he can throw out blatantly deluded logic and have people nodding along as if he's making any sense. His talk about nepotism doesn't actually make any sense, and that's because he has no good alternative. The cats who are in positions of power are in positions of power due to lack of any better alternatives. If Graystripe's theory that Thornclaw himself wants to be deputy now is true, then it makes it worse because I can think of few worse candidates for leader than Thornclaw at the moment. If the theory is not true, then Thornclaw comes off as even more deluded for having zero plans as a replacement. It's all well and good to rant and complain about nepotism, but who else is willing to step up that isn't related to Firestar? Molewhisker and Cherryfall are literally the only options that wouldn't be awful, and those two haven't exactly sold anyone on any particularly great acts either. Besides, they trained Bramblestar's kits, so by association I'm sure one can make the argument that it's a nepotistic choice. I've already seen that kind of goal post moving happen to Skyclan, so I'm sure it'd happen to them too. The problem with Thornclaw's argument is that if you look hard enough, you can find connections in anything. For example, most of the villains in the series have been tabbies, does this mean there's some secret cabal of tabbies working against the clans? No, it does not. Coincidences exist. In any case, does any of this make Thornclaw a bad character? Absolutely not, he's always been headstrong and the situation is so desperate that him lashing out like this is pathetic but makes sense. When he voiced his disagreement it wasn't with any kind of bootlicking like Scorchfur, and so he remains sympathetic despite his less than good way of responding to the situation. I just think that the "actually Thornclaw has a good point" lacks water for many reasons I've gone into on many other threads. i made my qualified to be deputy thread because i knew you were going to say this exact argument. i won't repeat myself on here since i already made a thread about it.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Jul 21, 2020 20:06:37 GMT -5
I have mixed feelings on him. He's right, but he brought it up because he wanted to be deputy
Even though he's ancient and has no place being deputy
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 21, 2020 20:10:10 GMT -5
why is he not retired when hes the same age as brackenfur
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Asexual
#07B04C
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Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Jul 21, 2020 20:11:56 GMT -5
Thornclaw calling out the nepotism was like the best thing ever. SOMEONE'S been listening to us.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Jul 21, 2020 20:12:31 GMT -5
why is he not retired when hes the same age as brackenfur Because you can't retire when you're that ornery and have patrols to do
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2020 20:13:24 GMT -5
Thornclaw was telling it like it is
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2020 20:16:03 GMT -5
why is he not retired when hes the same age as brackenfur Cats retire at different ages I guess. Webfoot retired before wayy before Tornear did, despite being the apprentice of Tornear's littermate.
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Post by Sundance on Jul 21, 2020 20:23:38 GMT -5
I love how Thornclaw pointed out the nepotism in ThunderClan (next, he’ll find out he’s in a book written by middle aged British women and realize just how far the conspiracy goes :-P )
Otherwise, I thought he was awful in the preview. This exchange was particularly bad:
Like, I know it wasn’t meant in this way whatsoever, but it almost comes off as sexist. Squirrelflight has done so much for ThunderClan, been a loyal, hardworking deputy for yyeaarrss who has risked her life time and again for her clanmates, yet the only reason Thornclaw can think to give on why anyone would possibly follow her is because .... she was Bramblestar’s mate? The heck? Yeah, no, Thornclaw, it’s because Squirrelflight is a total badass. :-P
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Post by Sundance on Jul 21, 2020 20:25:51 GMT -5
why is he not retired when hes the same age as brackenfur Because the Editors decided to pair a cat that’s ~60 in human years with a cat that’s ~30 in human years and they know if they make Thornclaw an elder now it’ll make their age difference tooooo obvious.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Jul 21, 2020 20:49:40 GMT -5
he's playing the role of grumpy old soldier well. i like what we're seeing of him, but i'm really tired of the characters constantly harping on squirrelflight. she's not perfect, but she's risen up and done a lot more than most of them, and i think she's been particularly strong and composed in the broken code considering all that's been thrown at her. it reminds me a lot of the characters using every opportunity to snark firestar and put him down in the prophecies begin, ironically enough. the only difference is that it. never. ends. give squirrelflight a break. Exactly. After everything that has happened, can Thornclaw even really blame Squirrelflight for choosing her son? Most of the clan turned against her under the impostor. Why would she trust any of them to be deputy? While Lionblaze isn't my favorite character, I think he's definitely someone Squirrelflight can trust to back her up in this instance
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 21, 2020 21:06:36 GMT -5
why is he not retired when hes the same age as brackenfur Cats retire at different ages I guess. Webfoot retired before wayy before Tornear did, despite being the apprentice of Tornear's littermate. webfoot and tornear are not littermates, you're thinking of mudclaw. webfoot was a new apprentice in rising storm when tornear was a warrior cloudtail is younger than thornclaw and yet he's retired, too
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 21, 2020 21:09:48 GMT -5
why is he not retired when hes the same age as brackenfur Because the Editors decided to pair a cat that’s ~60 in human years with a cat that’s ~30 in human years and they know if they make Thornclaw an elder now it’ll make their age difference tooooo obvious. i really think blossom x thorn was a mistake. his brother and sister respectively spread enough of their bloodline, and i kinda liked the idea of him as a #ForeverAlone bachelor. and also he's really old--but that doesn't bug me as much. blossomfall should have become mates with someone else.
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Post by Oceanmist97 on Jul 21, 2020 21:10:53 GMT -5
Because the Editors decided to pair a cat that’s ~60 in human years with a cat that’s ~30 in human years and they know if they make Thornclaw an elder now it’ll make their age difference tooooo obvious. i really think blossom x thorn was a mistake. his brother and sister respectively spread enough of their bloodline, and i kinda liked the idea of him as a #ForeverAlone bachelor. and also he's really old--but that doesn't bug me as much. blossomfall should have become mates with someone else. Toadstep x Blossomfall would have been so ideal
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 21, 2020 21:14:08 GMT -5
i really think blossom x thorn was a mistake. his brother and sister respectively spread enough of their bloodline, and i kinda liked the idea of him as a #ForeverAlone bachelor. and also he's really old--but that doesn't bug me as much. blossomfall should have become mates with someone else. Toadstep x Blossomfall would have been so ideal honestly i think hazeltail, foxleap, and toadstep's deaths pissed me off the most, but i dont want to get too off-topic. thornclaw just seemed like an odd choice all around-- for the dark forest, being blossomfall's mate, etc.
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Post by Fireleap on Jul 21, 2020 21:25:07 GMT -5
He kinda rubs me the wrong way just because of how disrespectful he is to Squirrelflight, but I'm very glad he brought up the nepotism in ThunderClan.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2020 21:39:48 GMT -5
Cats retire at different ages I guess. Webfoot retired before wayy before Tornear did, despite being the apprentice of Tornear's littermate. webfoot and tornear are not littermates, you're thinking of mudclaw. webfoot was a new apprentice in rising storm when tornear was a warrior cloudtail is younger than thornclaw and yet he's retired, too I know, I said, that Webfoot was the apprentice of Tornear's littermate.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 21, 2020 21:43:00 GMT -5
webfoot and tornear are not littermates, you're thinking of mudclaw. webfoot was a new apprentice in rising storm when tornear was a warrior cloudtail is younger than thornclaw and yet he's retired, too I know, I said, that Webfoot was the apprentice of Tornear's littermate. well i completely misread that i think that could be more attributed to the erins just forgetting the ages of cats from other clans
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2020 21:44:19 GMT -5
I know, I said, that Webfoot was the apprentice of Tornear's littermate. well i completely misread that i think that could be more attributed to the erins just forgetting the ages of cats from other clans True, and Tallstar's Revenge came out after, so maybe Tornear and Mudclaw weren't planned as brothers yet
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2020 17:42:35 GMT -5
I don't think Thornclaw was just being butthurt and whiny over of being passed up for deputy. I saw it as a combination of wanting to be deputy himself at some point but Firekin (Bramblestar? idk) getting the rank. Then all the high ranks being held by Firestar's line (at one point there were three medicine cats, all related to him) for years on end. All the prophecies and fame went to the Firefam.
When he had children of his own I suppose he was aware of the nepotism (it sounded like he had that rant prepared for a while) and deep down Thornclaw knew that his kids would never get recognition or amount to anything more than a warrior, and he reasonably thought they would be skimmed over for leadership positions in favour of someone in Firestar's bloodline, no matter how hard they worked:
I don't like how he was talking about Squirrelflight and the slandering of her in general, but I definitely feel for Thornclaw. I think there's pain behind his words, especially since his son just died. And we see that he is not the only cat in the Clan who thinks this way. Even Greystripe acknowledged that he was right.
(Did I just do a character analysis for THORNCLAW lmao)
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Post by halogen on Jul 22, 2020 18:16:36 GMT -5
Thornclaw is a weird case where he can throw out blatantly deluded logic and have people nodding along as if he's making any sense. His talk about nepotism doesn't actually make any sense, and that's because he has no good alternative. The cats who are in positions of power are in positions of power due to lack of any better alternatives. If Graystripe's theory that Thornclaw himself wants to be deputy now is true, then it makes it worse because I can think of few worse candidates for leader than Thornclaw at the moment. If the theory is not true, then Thornclaw comes off as even more deluded for having zero plans as a replacement. It's all well and good to rant and complain about nepotism, but who else is willing to step up that isn't related to Firestar? Molewhisker and Cherryfall are literally the only options that wouldn't be awful, and those two haven't exactly sold anyone on any particularly great acts either. Besides, they trained Bramblestar's kits, so by association I'm sure one can make the argument that it's a nepotistic choice. I've already seen that kind of goal post moving happen to Skyclan, so I'm sure it'd happen to them too. The problem with Thornclaw's argument is that if you look hard enough, you can find connections in anything. For example, most of the villains in the series have been tabbies, does this mean there's some secret cabal of tabbies working against the clans? No, it does not. Coincidences exist. In any case, does any of this make Thornclaw a bad character? Absolutely not, he's always been headstrong and the situation is so desperate that him lashing out like this is pathetic but makes sense. When he voiced his disagreement it wasn't with any kind of bootlicking like Scorchfur, and so he remains sympathetic despite his less than good way of responding to the situation. I just think that the "actually Thornclaw has a good point" lacks water for many reasons I've gone into on many other threads. See Lady of Fandoms' point - the problem isn't that Lionblaze isn't a good pick, the problem is that the authors write a universe in which nepotism is right and only one family really is capable of leading.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2020 18:28:30 GMT -5
Gonna sound like an echo, but just because a cat is super background or not "qualified" for deputy doesn't mean they can't be given the position and developed afterward. I couldn't even tell you one thing Ashfoot said or did before Onestar chose her, but as the books progress we see her become a compassionate, level-headed and a strong deputy (easily one of the top ones). Russetfur was also some rando, picked between books iirc. Her personality isn't as nice as Ashfoot, she still got focus and had a good presence.
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