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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2020 19:43:51 GMT -5
so i looked at crickets great thread about tigerhearts shadow, and it made me wonder: did ivypool really have a good reason to hate tigerheart?
tbh, im neutral about this situation. i can totally understand her frustrations about her sister, but shes unfair with tigerheart. i felt she didn't like him because he was with dovewing and that wasnt a valid reason in my opinion. the fact that ivypool believed in dovewings manipulation about tigerheart using her made her look stupid to me. there was no valid proof that he used her from her point of view. as the readers we see that he took advantage of dovewing but it was dovewings fault for spilling out in the first place. there were both sides to this but ivypool automatically chose to hate tigerheart and has hated him since. she also blames him for things that arent his fault, like dovewing leaving. tigerheart could not stop dovewing from leaving and he has a responsibility for his clan, and for someone who wants her sister to be loyal to the warrior code this makes her look like a hypocrite for being mad at him and not going after dovewing and choosing his clan over her. dovewings choice isnt his responsibility. he gave her reasonable reasons to stay and dovewing did not listen to him.
i can understand where ivypool is coming from but i think shes being unreasonable. she had no proof of what tigerheart has done to dovewing; dovewing simply manipulated her sister and put these thoughts into her head. i know she was only awful to tigerheart because she was worried about her sister but its not an excuse to be an asshole. idk, i think shes unfair about the entire situation. nobody is responsible for dovewings disappearance but dovewing herself.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 20, 2020 19:48:09 GMT -5
i only agreed with ivypool when it came to dovextiger. she was right to criticize and disown her sister for it. dovewing was a traitor and abanonded her family. it's reasonable for ivypool to feel very betrayed and angry over that. if i just made up with my sister over one issue, but another issue came up to get in the way *again* then yeah, i'd be angry again like ivypool.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2020 19:54:01 GMT -5
Ivypool and Tigerheart never got along, in Omen of the Stars, Ivypool is about to kill Flametail's spirit, completely erasing him from existence, and Tigerheart was rightfully extremely pissed. Then, Dovewing tells Tigerheart about their herb garden, and Littlecloud, who is sick and dying, desperately needs herbs, so Tigerheart makes a rash decision to tell Blackstar? about the herb garden, which results in Ivypool being held hostage, until ThunderClan gives them catmint for Littlecloud. They've never gotten along, even before Dovewing and Tigerheart became an official couple.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2020 19:55:52 GMT -5
Ivypool and Tigerheart never got along, in Omen of the Stars, Ivypool is about to kill Flametail's spirit, completely erasing him from existence, and Tigerheart was rightfully extremely pissed. Then, Dovewing tells Tigerheart about their herb garden, and Littlecloud, who is sick and dying, desperately needs herbs, so Tigerheart makes a rash decision to tell Blackstar? about the herb garden, which results in Ivypool being held hostage, until ThunderClan gives them catmint for Littlecloud. They've never gotten along, even before Dovewing and Tigerheart became an official couple. ah, i forgot! i havent read oots in ages so my mind is fuzzy
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2020 19:59:52 GMT -5
Ivypool and Tigerheart never got along, in Omen of the Stars, Ivypool is about to kill Flametail's spirit, completely erasing him from existence, and Tigerheart was rightfully extremely pissed. Then, Dovewing tells Tigerheart about their herb garden, and Littlecloud, who is sick and dying, desperately needs herbs, so Tigerheart makes a rash decision to tell Blackstar? about the herb garden, which results in Ivypool being held hostage, until ThunderClan gives them catmint for Littlecloud. They've never gotten along, even before Dovewing and Tigerheart became an official couple. ah, i forgot! i havent read oots in ages so my mind is fuzzy Haha I can relate XD I don't remember most things from these books
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 20, 2020 21:48:10 GMT -5
no. the only reason ivypool ever disliked the relationship was because she was jealous of all the love and attention dovewing got irl, and tigerheart was just another manifestation of that to her
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Post by Woofzie on Jul 20, 2020 22:07:10 GMT -5
no. the only reason ivypool ever disliked the relationship was because she was jealous of all the love and attention dovewing got irl, and tigerheart was just another manifestation of that to her This. And tbh Ivy was a huge hypocrite, she really emphasizes multiple times that she liked Tigerheart and felt safe in the Dark Forest having him train beside her. If I remind it correctly, it was Tiger who got mad at Ivy for trying to kill his brother's spirit, they were close to friends before that.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 20, 2020 22:51:20 GMT -5
no. the only reason ivypool ever disliked the relationship was because she was jealous of all the love and attention dovewing got irl, and tigerheart was just another manifestation of that to her This. And tbh Ivy was a huge hypocrite, she really emphasizes multiple times that she liked Tigerheart and felt safe in the Dark Forest having him train beside her. If I remind it correctly, it was Tiger who got mad at Ivy for trying to kill his brother's spirit, they were close to friends before that. i did feel like there was a subtle implication that ivypool had a crush on tigerheart too, because he was the strong and loyal warrior she wanted to be herself. then her jealousy would be aimed at also who was giving dovewing attention. she did seem to relish telling dovewing that tigerheart spent "every night" with her, too. but i dont think that's ever confirmed in canon, so it may just be my interpretation.
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Post by Uмвяᴀ on Jul 20, 2020 23:03:02 GMT -5
This. And tbh Ivy was a huge hypocrite, she really emphasizes multiple times that she liked Tigerheart and felt safe in the Dark Forest having him train beside her. If I remind it correctly, it was Tiger who got mad at Ivy for trying to kill his brother's spirit, they were close to friends before that. i did feel like there was a subtle implication that ivypool had a crush on tigerheart too, because he was the strong and loyal warrior she wanted to be herself. then her jealousy would be aimed at also who was giving dovewing attention. she did seem to relish telling dovewing that tigerheart spent "every night" with her, too. but i dont think that's ever confirmed in canon, so it may just be my interpretation. Haha I thought the same thing. When I was first reading Fading Echoes when I was like 11, I thought that there was going to be a love triangle between Dove, Ivy, and Tiger lol. I don't think that's an unreasonable interpretation.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2020 23:12:11 GMT -5
I think I can understand her frustration. She and her sister were really close, and during OotS I think a big part of her envy (which wasn’t right,, don’t get me wrong) stemmed from the fact that she was hurt/sad that she didn’t get to spend time with her sister anymore, without explanation it seemed like she was being pulled away from her. After they’re slowly finally recovering their relationship after the events of OotS, Dovewing is taken from her all over again, she chooses something over the family she’s lived with her whole life. That must have hurt, badly.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2020 23:19:10 GMT -5
Yeah it's hard to tell whether it was actually a crush or just one of those jealous jabs she would say in her head, but it's still interesting to note.
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Post by Brindlefern on Jul 20, 2020 23:27:18 GMT -5
This. And tbh Ivy was a huge hypocrite, she really emphasizes multiple times that she liked Tigerheart and felt safe in the Dark Forest having him train beside her. If I remind it correctly, it was Tiger who got mad at Ivy for trying to kill his brother's spirit, they were close to friends before that. i did feel like there was a subtle implication that ivypool had a crush on tigerheart too, because he was the strong and loyal warrior she wanted to be herself. then her jealousy would be aimed at also who was giving dovewing attention. she did seem to relish telling dovewing that tigerheart spent "every night" with her, too. but i dont think that's ever confirmed in canon, so it may just be my interpretation. When I read that very scene I was wondering in the back of my mind whether Ivypool didn't know the implications of that "spending every night with me" comment she threw at Dovewing, or if she did and threw it out anyways to rile her up or something, which would've been crappy to do if so given she knows Dove likes Tigerheart and all and it resulted in Dovewing saying she was jealous she had him or something (I can't fricking remember man OoTS was such a blur). I didn't take it as her crushing on him moreso either of those two above chances. But if it was, I would've been like "Wait nobody talked about THIS love triangle.... oh wait that's not it???"
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Post by Uмвяᴀ on Jul 20, 2020 23:43:26 GMT -5
i did feel like there was a subtle implication that ivypool had a crush on tigerheart too, because he was the strong and loyal warrior she wanted to be herself. then her jealousy would be aimed at also who was giving dovewing attention. she did seem to relish telling dovewing that tigerheart spent "every night" with her, too. but i dont think that's ever confirmed in canon, so it may just be my interpretation. When I read that very scene I was wondering in the back of my mind whether Ivypool knew the implications of that "spending every night with me" comment she threw at Dovewing, or if she did and threw it out anyways to rile her up or something, which would've been crappy to do if so given she knows Dove likes Tigerheart and all and it resulted in Dovewing saying she was jealous she had him or something (I can't fricking remember man OoTS was such a blur). I didn't take it as her crushing on him moreso either of those two above chances. Found it! Yikes, that was cringy. Yeah Ivypool totally knew the implications of what she was saying and wanted to rile Dovewing up.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 20, 2020 23:46:57 GMT -5
i did feel like there was a subtle implication that ivypool had a crush on tigerheart too, because he was the strong and loyal warrior she wanted to be herself. then her jealousy would be aimed at also who was giving dovewing attention. she did seem to relish telling dovewing that tigerheart spent "every night" with her, too. but i dont think that's ever confirmed in canon, so it may just be my interpretation. When I read that very scene I was wondering in the back of my mind whether Ivypool didn't know the implications of that "spending every night with me" comment she threw at Dovewing, or if she did and threw it out anyways to rile her up or something, which would've been crappy to do if so given she knows Dove likes Tigerheart and all and it resulted in Dovewing saying she was jealous she had him or something (I can't fricking remember man OoTS was such a blur). I didn't take it as her crushing on him moreso either of those two above chances. But if it was, I would've been like "Wait nobody talked about THIS love triangle.... oh wait that's not it???" hold on i actually happen to have night whispers (i only have 6 warriors books besides the original TPB) "I'm not the one who disappears at night to meet a ShadowClan warrior."
Dovepaw's heart seemed to drop in her chest like a stone. Ivypaw knows about Tigerheart! "How did you find out?"
"Did you think I wouldn't smell him on you?" Ivypaw's tail lashed. "Not very loyal, is it? Spending every night with a tom from another clan?"
Dovepaw stiffened. "At least we're not putting anyone in danger."
"What do you mean by that?"
"Every time you go to the Dark Forest, you betray your clanmates."
"That's not true!" Ivypaw hissed. "I'm learning to become a great warrior so I can help my Clan!"
"Yeah, right!" Dovepaw snapped scornfully. "Just like Tigerstar. He was a great warrior!"
"He was!"
"He became ShadowClan's leader. He tried to kill Firestar!" How could Ivypaw be so dumb?
Ivypaw glared at her, eyes cold as ice. "Aren't you going to ask how I recognized the smell?"
Dovepaw blinked, confused. "What?"
"Don't you think it's odd how easily I recognized Tigerheart's scent?"
Dovepaw froze, her blood draining into her paws. She remembered the look Ivypaw and Tigerheart had shared in battle.
"H-how did you know?" Dovepaw cringed beneath her pelt. She didn't want to hear the answer. She didn't want to hear that Tigerheart had been seeing Ivypaw, too. That he'd lied to her. That she wasn't the only ThunderClan cat that occupied his thoughts.
"I meet him almost every night," Ivypaw crowed.
"You can't; he's with me!"
"Not all night."
Dovepaw backed away. "Don't say that! He likes me, not you. Have you been following him? Find your own mate! Leave him alone!"
Ivypaw padded closer. "Oh, I don't like him in that way. I'm not a soppy dove like you. I'm a warrior, and so is Tigerheart."
Dovepaw wished she were deaf, wished she could see Ivypaw's mouth moving without hearing the words.
"Tigerheart doesn't spend every night cooing in your ears," Ivypaw taunted. "He's one of the best warriors the Dark Forest has. That's where his loyalties lie. Not with you!"
"That's not true! You're just jealous!" Dovepaw shrieked at her sister. She couldn't believe these lies. "You're jealous that I'm a better warrior than you. I always have been and I always will be, and you can't stand it. And now you're jealous that Tigerheart loves me and not you! You want to destroy everything I've got because you're jealous. That's all!" EDIT: DAMN IT i typed out the whole thing from the book and Umbra beat me to it
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jul 20, 2020 23:47:23 GMT -5
I never got the impression that Ivypaw had a crush on Tigerheart, I just think she was pissed at Dovewing in that moment and wanted to piss her off just as much, so she twisted the knife by saying "we spend every night together", knowing that Dovewing would interpret that as Tiger liking Ivy instead of them training together.
Anyway, actual thread question. Yeah, I think having a grudge against Tigerheart is reasonable. Keep in mind I have not read Tigerheart's Shadow. If my own real life sister got a new boyfriend who was clearly a bad influence to her and caused her to do bad things (analogous to breaking the Warrior Code), I would be pissed at the boyfriend, not my sister, even though my sister is the one responsible. This is because she's my freaking sister and nothing can break that blood bond, and I want the best for her. But the boyfriend? I literally don't give a crap about him and have no trouble telling him to screw off and leave my sister alone.
If my sister then married said bad-influence boyfriend and moved away, I would be pissed at both of them, but I would harbor MORE resentment toward the boyfriend for taking her away than I would toward my sister for leaving.
Make sense?
EDIT: Boy, I got double ninja'd.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 21, 2020 0:20:13 GMT -5
I feel like this scene is getting misinterpreted lol.
Ivypaw made it clear that she didn't have an interest in Tigerheart, and quickly corrected her sister, twice, and very clearly the second time. She was trying to get the point across that Tigerheart wasn't trustworthy, and not the good guy her sister was mooning over all the time.
However, this translated in Dovepaw's tiny brain that Ivypaw was romantically into Tigerheart, and also her refusing to believe that someone like him would train in the Dark Forest. Or "stoop" to the same level as her sister, because she thinks that highly of him, and lowly of her, hence why she threw the "you're just jealous" card and completely shut out the truth.
When it comes to Ivypool's dislike toward Tigerheart, it's reasonable imo. He did use her as a trading piece to force ThunderClan to give up precious herbs. Also, he was encouraging Dovewing to willingly break the code for him for moons, which puts Ivypool in a position of having to cover her sister's secret despite it clashing with her strong sense of loyalty. Also, that time when Tigerheart did nothing to stop her pregnant sister from going away into the dangerous unknown despite claiming he loved her so much. *rolls eyes* Honestly if not for Dove's bird brain decisions and Tigerheart being super suspicious back in OotS, they probably wouldn't dislike one another so much.
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Post by whiteflight on Jul 21, 2020 0:23:26 GMT -5
I never got the impression that Ivypaw had a crush on Tigerheart, I just think she was pissed at Dovewing in that moment and wanted to piss her off just as much, so she twisted the knife by saying "we spend every night together", knowing that Dovewing would interpret that as Tiger liking Ivy instead of them training together. Anyway, actual thread question. Yeah, I think having a grudge against Tigerheart is reasonable. Keep in mind I have not read Tigerheart's Shadow. If my own real life sister got a new boyfriend who was clearly a bad influence to her and caused her to do bad things (analogous to breaking the Warrior Code), I would be pissed at the boyfriend, not my sister, even though my sister is the one responsible. This is because she's my freaking sister and nothing can break that blood bond, and I want the best for her. But the boyfriend? I literally don't give a crap about him and have no trouble telling him to screw off and leave my sister alone. If my sister then married said bad-influence boyfriend and moved away, I would be pissed at both of them, but I would harbor MORE resentment toward the boyfriend for taking her away than I would toward my sister for leaving. Make sense? EDIT: Boy, I got double ninja'd. 100% agree with this. Even if me and my sister have the same relationship as Dove and Ivy I still care and want the best for her cause she's my only sister. The bond between us may seem weak because of how different we are but not matter what she will always be my sister. My sister's bf made her do things she had never done before (which were mostly bad stuff that got me mad and hate her a lot more than before). Once they broke up I hated him and wanted to murder him for making my sister heart broken and cry. Ivypool's grudge is reasonable imo because the path Dovewing took was mainly because of Tigerheartstar even if he didn't say or really do anything.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2020 0:49:23 GMT -5
When I read that very scene I was wondering in the back of my mind whether Ivypool knew the implications of that "spending every night with me" comment she threw at Dovewing, or if she did and threw it out anyways to rile her up or something, which would've been crappy to do if so given she knows Dove likes Tigerheart and all and it resulted in Dovewing saying she was jealous she had him or something (I can't fricking remember man OoTS was such a blur). I didn't take it as her crushing on him moreso either of those two above chances. Found it! Yikes, that was cringy. Yeah Ivypool totally knew the implications of what she was saying and wanted to rile Dovewing up. tbh they were both being assholes to each other here
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2020 0:52:17 GMT -5
Found it! Yikes, that was cringy. Yeah Ivypool totally knew the implications of what she was saying and wanted to rile Dovewing up. tbh they were both being assholes to each other here I’m def reconsidering my opinion on Ivy as a whole considering context (been a long time since I read oots) but wow Dove is so cringy “I’m a better warrior than you, always have and always will be” give me a break, Dovewing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2020 0:56:48 GMT -5
tbh they were both being assholes to each other here I’m def reconsidering my opinion on Ivy as a whole considering context (been a long time since I read oots) but wow Dove is so cringy “I’m a better warrior than you, always have and always will be” give me a break, Dovewing. to be fair ivypaw was just as bad and joined the dark Forest because she wanted to be better than dovepaw. i dont like either character, not taking sides, but judging dovepaw for that doesnt seem fair to me. ivypaw whined to dovepaw CONSTANTLY about how she wanted to be better than her sister. shes really no better than dovepaw in this case, but i have to admit that she has more valid reasons imo both sisters are trash to each other, im just glad theyre in the background now. dovewing and ivypool are trash that should have never been recycled.
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Post by Uмвяᴀ on Jul 21, 2020 0:59:00 GMT -5
tbh they were both being assholes to each other here I’m def reconsidering my opinion on Ivy as a whole considering context (been a long time since I read oots) but wow Dove is so cringy “I’m a better warrior than you, always have and always will be” give me a break, Dovewing. To be fair to Dovepaw, Ivypaw has been jealous of her for the past two books so it's not that unreasonable for Dove to think she was jealous again and Ivy was deliberately trying provoke Dove by intentionally phrasing Tigerheart's DF training in a way that implies he's cheating on Dove. But yeah, I hard cringed on both ends. They acted like they're in middle school or something. The reason I had this scene so readily available is that this is one of the scenes I like to show my friends when I make fun of Warriors with them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2020 1:01:37 GMT -5
I’m def reconsidering my opinion on Ivy as a whole considering context (been a long time since I read oots) but wow Dove is so cringy “I’m a better warrior than you, always have and always will be” give me a break, Dovewing. to be fair ivypaw was just as bad and joined the dark Forest because she wanted to be better than dovepaw. i dont like either character, not taking sides, but judging dovepaw for that doesnt seem fair to me. ivypaw whined to dovepaw CONSTANTLY about how she wanted to be better than her sister. shes really no better than dovepaw in this case, but i have to admit that she has more valid reasons imo both sisters are trash to each other, im just glad theyre in the background now. dovewing and ivypool are trash that should have never been recycled. their sisterhood was the worst honestly. Most could’ve been avoided if Dove just communicated better with Ivy in TFA and Fading Echoes imo but they were both bad
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2020 1:10:41 GMT -5
to be fair ivypaw was just as bad and joined the dark Forest because she wanted to be better than dovepaw. i dont like either character, not taking sides, but judging dovepaw for that doesnt seem fair to me. ivypaw whined to dovepaw CONSTANTLY about how she wanted to be better than her sister. shes really no better than dovepaw in this case, but i have to admit that she has more valid reasons imo both sisters are trash to each other, im just glad theyre in the background now. dovewing and ivypool are trash that should have never been recycled. their sisterhood was the worst honestly. Most could’ve been avoided if Dove just communicated better with Ivy in TFA and Fading Echoes imo but they were both bad you do know that ivypaw was the one that chose to avoid her right? dovepaw is a bitch to her too but ivypaw chose to ignore her a lot. she avoided her all the time. the big reason i hate ivypool is because she lacks communication. she screams at her sister and takes her anger out on everyone else. shes rude, disrespectful and ungrateful. shes also irresponsible and didnt do her job, but I'll get onto that some other time. ivypool has always avoided her and its unfair that ppl blame dovepaw for not communicating with her bc she actually tried. and when dovepaw tried, ivypaw pretty much told her to screw off. they only started to talk after she broke up with tigerheart. ivypool is not a mature character. shes constantly bitchy and doesnt respect anyone. every time we see her shes always so angry. shes predictable and a little unsettling to read about. she even got mad at twigbranch once bc she saw tigerheart x dovewing together and that rubbed me the wrong way bc it wasnt twigbranchs place to get involved. ivypool is an asshole. the only times i side with her is when she wants whats best for her sister. dovewing takes advantage of her and breaks the code, so her anger is reasonable. but ivypool handles shit poorly. tldr; ivypool is just as bad as dovewing. I loathe both sisters because one of them (dovewing) uses the other one so she can be with tigerheart and then ditches her, while the other (ivypool) screams at her sis and ignores her and treats her like trash. both sisters are terrible to each other; nobody's innocent. i do sympathize with ivypool a lot more but i wish ppl wouldnt treat this character like shes always innocent
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2020 1:14:35 GMT -5
anyways thats my two cents right there, im not going to debate any further. feel free to reply but i wont respond. no "if you dont want to debate then dont post" comments please.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2020 1:30:02 GMT -5
Sorry my memory of OotS is blurry. I don’t particularly support/like Ivy that much anymore either although I prefer Dove a lot less so that’ll color my memory I suppose.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2020 1:36:53 GMT -5
Sorry my memory of OotS is blurry. I don’t particularly support/like Ivy that much anymore either although I prefer Dove a lot less so that’ll color my memory I suppose. no hard feelings pal 🤘 i prefer ivypool myself, but my problem with her is that ppl worship her like shes a god and it seems unfair that ppl act like she is completely flawless compared to dovewing not saying its you doing this, but theres definitely a few fans out there acting like shes the best at everything ┐( ̄ヘ ̄)┌
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jul 21, 2020 1:46:55 GMT -5
Anything regarding Ivypool makes my head hurt, but I think she had reasons to not like Tigerheart at least at the time: he hated her for trying to kill Flametail (he seems to have gotten over it, though), and she likely started to hate him after the whole catmint thing.
That being said, even if I do prefer Dovewing, I really couldn't stand their arguments. The infamous one in NW was just laughably bad and I think it's a good reflection on the quality of OotS as a whole, really. And in general, Ivypool herself is just a really overrated character who gets far too much credit than what she actually deserves.
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Post by dragonfruit on Jul 21, 2020 3:02:00 GMT -5
Yes tbh. Ivypool had every right to tell her sister what a mess she was getting herself into, but whether Dovewing actually listened to her advice was up to her. Personally I’ve always seen it as less of a grudge against Tigerheart, and more against the relationship, since Ivy was actually smart enough to realise the dangers Dovewing was getting herself into. It had gotten to the point when their relationship had even gotten Ivypool in serious trouble, so it was refreshing to see someone finally ask her to get her shit together lol. In terms of her jealousy as a kid, it’s honestly realistic and from her point of view, and very understandable. That said, no, she didn’t handle her jealousy well in the slightest. Honestly, I’m glad both sisters cut ties.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jul 21, 2020 8:49:27 GMT -5
Honestly I really like the argument. The petty sniping and jabs feel realistic enough to me in terms of both having reasons for what they're doing and why they're like that. Ivypool just kind of despises Tigerheart for poor reasons, and that happens sometimes.
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