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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Apr 11, 2020 10:06:11 GMT -5
I was referring to back when Ashfur accused bs toward Firestar, Leafpool, and Squirrelflight when Bramblestar was made deputy despite not qualifying for it. But this implies there's a history of nepotism to begin with, and Brambleclaw being named as such was not nepotism. I don't believe he should have been made deputy, but he was made one due to Leafpool's sign, not due to any favoritism. It wasn't nepotism then and it's not nepotism now. Bramblestar was Squirrelflight's mate, who in turn was Firestar's daughter and Leafpool's sister, he was married into the family. Ashfur accused them of nepotism, doesn't mean there actually was. Nepotism is literally defined as the practice among those with power or influence of favoring relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs. Firestar is the leader, Leafpool is the medicine cat, and according to her sign and by the will of StarClan, Bramblestar should have been deputy. Ashfur accused her of faking the sign because of favoritism, which is pretty much nepotism but by those in power. To him that's what it was, to everyone else it wasn't. Not sure how much more I can specify my opinion here.
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Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
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Post by Mayflower on Apr 11, 2020 13:33:51 GMT -5
But this implies there's a history of nepotism to begin with, and Brambleclaw being named as such was not nepotism. I don't believe he should have been made deputy, but he was made one due to Leafpool's sign, not due to any favoritism. It wasn't nepotism then and it's not nepotism now. Bramblestar was Squirrelflight's mate, who in turn was Firestar's daughter and Leafpool's sister, he was married into the family. Ashfur accused them of nepotism, doesn't mean there actually was. Nepotism is literally defined as the practice among those with power or influence of favoring relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs. Firestar is the leader, Leafpool is the medicine cat, and according to her sign and by the will of StarClan, Bramblestar should have been deputy. Ashfur accused her of faking the sign because of favoritism, which is pretty much nepotism but by those in power. To him that's what it was, to everyone else it wasn't. Not sure how much more I can specify my opinion here. I agree with Maplefrost. I think the confusion lies in people thinking nepotism means just family, but Maplefrost is talking about the actual definition (which counts here, imo, but everyone has different opinions, of course). The meaning is:
Essentially, that is what is happening in the arc, and has been happening for a long time. ThunderClan's leadership has been "kept in the family" for years, going as far back as Sunstar, who was Bluestar's mentor. It has now trickled down to Squirrelflight giving the deputy position to her and Bramblestar's son. That's what many people, myself included, are tired of. Nepotism doesn't refer to only blood relations. Even if they are qualified for the position (which is subjective), the fact that a potential reason why they may have been given the job is because of their close relations to the higher rank is nepotism.
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 11, 2020 13:42:16 GMT -5
Bramblestar was Squirrelflight's mate, who in turn was Firestar's daughter and Leafpool's sister, he was married into the family. Ashfur accused them of nepotism, doesn't mean there actually was. Nepotism is literally defined as the practice among those with power or influence of favoring relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs. Firestar is the leader, Leafpool is the medicine cat, and according to her sign and by the will of StarClan, Bramblestar should have been deputy. Ashfur accused her of faking the sign because of favoritism, which is pretty much nepotism but by those in power. To him that's what it was, to everyone else it wasn't. Not sure how much more I can specify my opinion here. I agree with Maplefrost. I think the confusion lies in people thinking nepotism means just family, but Maplefrost is talking about the actual definition (which counts here, imo, but everyone has different opinions, of course). The meaning is: nep·o·tism
/ˈnepəˌtizəm/
the practice among those with power or influence of favoring relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs.
"his years in office were marked by corruption and nepotism"
Similar:
favoritism
preferential treatment
keeping it in the familyEssentially, that is what is happening in the arc, and has been happening for a long time. ThunderClan's leadership has been "kept in the family" for years, going as far back as Sunstar, who was Bluestar's mentor. It has now trickled down to Squirrelflight giving the deputy position to her and Bramblestar's son. That's what many people, myself included, are tired of. Nepotism doesn't refer to only blood relations. Even if they are qualified for the position (which is subjective), the fact that a potential reason why they may have been given the job is because of their close relations to the higher rank is nepotism. The issue being missed here is that nepotism means that the favoritism is BASED upon the fact that there's a personal relationship. You're painting with brush strokes that are far too wide when you call it nepotism for friends and family to be promoted to high positions inherently, that's never been the definition. If one uses a better dictionary than the first result on google(namely Merriam Webster, a much more respected source), then you get this "favoritism (as in appointment to a job) based on kinship" So then, you have to prove that they were given the job BASED on their close relationship for it to be nepotism. There is no evidence of this beyond it being a "potential reason", but what-ifs are hardly evidence of anything.
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Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
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Post by Mayflower on Apr 11, 2020 14:03:07 GMT -5
I agree with Maplefrost. I think the confusion lies in people thinking nepotism means just family, but Maplefrost is talking about the actual definition (which counts here, imo, but everyone has different opinions, of course). The meaning is: nep·o·tism
/ˈnepəˌtizəm/
the practice among those with power or influence of favoring relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs.
"his years in office were marked by corruption and nepotism"
Similar:
favoritism
preferential treatment
keeping it in the familyEssentially, that is what is happening in the arc, and has been happening for a long time. ThunderClan's leadership has been "kept in the family" for years, going as far back as Sunstar, who was Bluestar's mentor. It has now trickled down to Squirrelflight giving the deputy position to her and Bramblestar's son. That's what many people, myself included, are tired of. Nepotism doesn't refer to only blood relations. Even if they are qualified for the position (which is subjective), the fact that a potential reason why they may have been given the job is because of their close relations to the higher rank is nepotism. The issue being missed here is that nepotism means that the favoritism is BASED upon the fact that there's a personal relationship. You're painting with brush strokes that are far too wide when you call it nepotism for friends and family to be promoted to high positions inherently, that's never been the definition. If one uses a better dictionary than the first result on google(namely Merriam Webster, a much more respected source), then you get this "favoritism (as in appointment to a job) based on kinship" So then, you have to prove that they were given the job BASED on their close relationship for it to be nepotism. There is no evidence of this beyond it being a "potential reason", but what-ifs are hardly evidence of anything. I got my definition from the Oxford's dictionary, though...? Genuine question -- is Oxford a less respected source than Merriam Webster? How is that definition any more legit than Oxford's? I honestly don't know what dictionary is more credible than others, beyond not using Wikipedia (which has its uses and everything is sourced, of course, but I digress). At the end of the day, I just find it very hard to believe that the only cats who ever get these positions are those who have some sort of relation to the highers up. Beyond Firestar, we've not seen them entertain other possibilities of cats outside their family for high positions, until Berrynose (and that was with fake!Bramblestar, so I mean, take that as you will). Granted, I know we aren't seeing their POVs, but it just doesn't make sense how their end conclusion is always someone who's close to them/in the family/their apprentice. I kinda let Mistystar and Reedwhisker slide, because that's the one case happening, but with ThunderClan, this has been going on for ages. So I guess I have to agree with Maplefrost again, and say I agree to disagree, since I think the nuances here are similar, but not meshing.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Apr 12, 2020 5:11:14 GMT -5
The issue being missed here is that nepotism means that the favoritism is BASED upon the fact that there's a personal relationship. You're painting with brush strokes that are far too wide when you call it nepotism for friends and family to be promoted to high positions inherently, that's never been the definition. If one uses a better dictionary than the first result on google(namely Merriam Webster, a much more respected source), then you get this "favoritism (as in appointment to a job) based on kinship" So then, you have to prove that they were given the job BASED on their close relationship for it to be nepotism. There is no evidence of this beyond it being a "potential reason", but what-ifs are hardly evidence of anything. I got my definition from the Oxford's dictionary, though...? Genuine question -- is Oxford a less respected source than Merriam Webster? How is that definition any more legit than Oxford's? I honestly don't know what dictionary is more credible than others, beyond not using Wikipedia (which has its uses and everything is sourced, of course, but I digress). At the end of the day, I just find it very hard to believe that the only cats who ever get these positions are those who have some sort of relation to the highers up. Beyond Firestar, we've not seen them entertain other possibilities of cats outside their family for high positions, until Berrynose (and that was with fake!Bramblestar, so I mean, take that as you will). Granted, I know we aren't seeing their POVs, but it just doesn't make sense how their end conclusion is always someone who's close to them/in the family/their apprentice. I kinda let Mistystar and Reedwhisker slide, because that's the one case happening, but with ThunderClan, this has been going on for ages. So I guess I have to agree with Maplefrost again, and say I agree to disagree, since I think the nuances here are similar, but not meshing. I mean, if we're being real here, Berrynose would ironically still count since Bramblestar did mentor him.
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Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
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Post by Mayflower on Apr 12, 2020 16:11:52 GMT -5
I got my definition from the Oxford's dictionary, though...? Genuine question -- is Oxford a less respected source than Merriam Webster? How is that definition any more legit than Oxford's? I honestly don't know what dictionary is more credible than others, beyond not using Wikipedia (which has its uses and everything is sourced, of course, but I digress). At the end of the day, I just find it very hard to believe that the only cats who ever get these positions are those who have some sort of relation to the highers up. Beyond Firestar, we've not seen them entertain other possibilities of cats outside their family for high positions, until Berrynose (and that was with fake!Bramblestar, so I mean, take that as you will). Granted, I know we aren't seeing their POVs, but it just doesn't make sense how their end conclusion is always someone who's close to them/in the family/their apprentice. I kinda let Mistystar and Reedwhisker slide, because that's the one case happening, but with ThunderClan, this has been going on for ages. So I guess I have to agree with Maplefrost again, and say I agree to disagree, since I think the nuances here are similar, but not meshing. I mean, if we're being real here, Berrynose would ironically still count since Bramblestar did mentor him. I had totally forgotten about that. Oof. This is so ingrained in ThunderClan culture that not even the impostor avoided it. Wow.
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Post by dawnshadow on Apr 12, 2020 16:34:16 GMT -5
I get where you guys are coming from, but it does make sense for a cat who became leader or deputy to mentor a cat well enough hat they are qualified to become leader or deputy. In addition, the fact that there is little character development in Thunderclan outside of the POV characters makes it difficult to have any idea who would actually be a good deputy.
I would've liked to see Rosepetal, but she died, and most of my reason was because I just liked her. I don't really know where the idea that Molewhisker would make a good deputy is coming from, cause from my experience with Molewhisker I completely disagree. I would've liked to see Ivypool, but as someone else mentioned she hasn't really done anything in this arc. While I never wanted to see Lionblae as deputy, I do think he wa the right choice. It's not like he's going to become leader. Even if Bramlbestar is on forever (which I don't believe), Squirrelflight would have nine lives to lead the clan, and I doubt Lionblaze would live that long, as I've never seen a deputy serve for the entire reign of a leader before. They always have at least two deputies, if not three. The only exceptions being Brokenstar who was driven out, and Tigerstar I who loast all 9 lives at one time. Reedwhisker has been Mistystar's only deputy, but she int dead yet, so I guess there's that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2020 16:38:34 GMT -5
I get where you guys are coming from, but it does make sense for a cat who became leader or deputy to mentor a cat well enough hat they are qualified to become leader or deputy. In addition, the fact that there is little character development in Thunderclan outside of the POV characters makes it difficult to have any idea who would actually be a good deputy. I would've liked to see Rosepetal, but she died, and most of my reason was because I just liked her. I don't really know where the idea that Molewhisker would make a good deputy is coming from, cause from my experience with Molewhisker I completely disagree. I would've liked to see Ivypool, but as someone else mentioned she hasn't really done anything in this arc. While I never wanted to see Lionblae as deputy, I do think he wa the right choice. It's not like he's going to become leader. Even if Bramlbestar is on forever (which I don't believe), Squirrelflight would have nine lives to lead the clan, and I doubt Lionblaze would live that long, as I've never seen a deputy serve for the entire reign of a leader before. They always have at least two deputies, if not three. The only exceptions being Brokenstar who was driven out, and Tigerstar I who loast all 9 lives at one time. Reedwhisker has been Mistystar's only deputy, but she int dead yet, so I guess there's that. The reason I think Molewhisker would be a great deputy, because of his subtle character growth in AVOS. At first, he was against SkyClan staying at the lake, he even traveled with them, to make sure they left, or at least, I think that's what one of the POV characters suggested. Anyway, at the end of that trip, he was treating SkyClan like his own clanmates, which I thought was pretty awesome of him. He was also a super patient mentor with Alderheart. There was that one mistake he made when he was an apprentice, where he, Cherrypaw, and I think Rosepetal, led The Dark Forest trainees into a trap as a "joke." Though, with his parents being HEAVILY against The Dark Forest trainees, I can understand why he and Cherryfall did that. I'm not saying it's right, but I can understand it.
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