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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2017 11:08:09 GMT -5
The reason why I'm iffy on this couple is because it feels forced to me. I know some can argue that Ivypool has time to think of a mate, but it doesn't feel right in the character. I have the feeling Kate is only giving her a mate to give Ivypool a "happy ending". Ivypool is a strong character who never needed a mate. When she was younger, Ivypool only had time to focus on the prophecy. She was also constantly worried about Dovewing and her fling with Tigerheart.
After the prophecy ended, Ivypool and Dovewing were getting closer. Why do people ship this couple already, when we've hardly seen much of them? Right now it seems like she's more worried about Dove x Tiger than her fling with Fern.
Her strong personality doesn't match having a mate. She has always been independent. Why does she need Fern to be happy? But now the Erins are forcing Tiger x Dove upon us, making Ivy lose the one she loves the most to ShadowClan.
While I'm not against Ivy x Fern, it is not needed. Face it; Fern was only created to give Ivy a happy ending. And as long as she has kits, she probably can't be deputy because I don't think Squirrel will be around for much longer. Ivy having kits will prevent her from being deputy. She will be in the nursery for six moons, and right now it looks like she's the only cat capable of being deputy.
I think people dislike Fern x Ivy because, as I have said, this feels forced upon her. I never shipped Ivy x Blossom though. I'll be honest, I never understood this crackship. Is it because Ivy tried to support Blossom when she felt down about Millie?
Anyhow, I just think giving her a mate will be a bad idea. If Squirrel may possibly die soon (unless the authors show some author favoritism) then Ivy can't have kits. They'll just prevent her from being deputy since it's going to take six moons to be out of the nursery.
Ivy x Fern is cute, but it's just not needed, and I feel like it's going to prevent a lot of things from her life.
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Bisexual
#64C7FF
Name Colour
finland
Porgs are love
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Post by finland on Sept 9, 2017 11:14:13 GMT -5
If you want a crack ship that makes no sense check out Ashfur x Scourge!
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Post by kinkajou on Sept 9, 2017 12:32:24 GMT -5
Idea: Ivy has a happy ending without a mate because not everyone needs a man to complete them
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Post by Amber on Sept 9, 2017 12:37:51 GMT -5
Personally, I don't see why Ivypool couldn't become deputy if she had kits. I mean Bramblestar could name her deputy but have someone like Brackenfur be temporary deputy until her kits become apprentices.
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Post by Basement Cat on Sept 9, 2017 12:59:21 GMT -5
My particular issue with IvyXFern is that it doesn't make sense from a narrator's perspective. A good writer does not have to tell us about a character, they show that character's traits. Ivypool has minimal 'showing', that she has interest in this type of thing, with the only thing giving us a possible idea was when she was excited about Dovewing and Bumblestripe and said they would have the cutest kits. I really can't stand when writers treat their readers like children and tell us something happened, instead of showing the process and build up of that character.
Ivypool has no build up that shows she wants a mate or kits. Ivypool never goes 'after the DF business is over I want to settle down and have kits', something the writers can easily imply to give build up to her and Fernsong. That is my frustration. There is minimal build up and implications. It is jarring to read, and if my Creative Writing professor saw me write something like that, he'd tell me to chuck it out the window because I'm telling, not showing.
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Ivy x Fern
Sept 9, 2017 13:03:39 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2017 13:03:39 GMT -5
My particular issue with IvyXFern is that it doesn't make sense from a narrator's perspective. A good writer does not have to tell us about a character, they show that character's traits. Ivypool has minimal 'showing', that she has interest in this type of thing, with the only thing giving us a possible idea was when she was excited about Dovewing and Bumblestripe and said they would have the cutest kits. I really can't stand when writers treat their readers like children and tell us something happened, instead of showing the process and build up of that character. Ivypool has no build up that shows she wants a mate or kits. Ivypool never goes 'after the DF business is over I want to settle down and have kits', something the writers can easily imply to give build up to her and Fernsong. That is my frustration. There is minimal build up and implications. It is jarring to read, and if my Creative Writing professor saw me write something like that, he'd tell me to chuck it out the window because I'm telling, not showing. Sadly, the Erins tend to do this a lot. It's one of the worst things a writer can do. I'm especially bothered when the leaders mention the deaths of their warriors, then they blow it off like it didn't even matter. Spiderleg is a perfect example for this.
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Post by Basement Cat on Sept 9, 2017 13:09:21 GMT -5
I like to think Spiderleg actually went to go join his kin, the spiders, and became spidercat. Little did we know he could always shoot spider web from his butt.
Godspeed, spoderlerg.
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Post by Moonblazer on Sept 9, 2017 13:49:48 GMT -5
I honestly think it's a matter of personal perspective too. It never felt forced to me, no pairings in this series ever felt "forced". Sometimes attraction and relationships take a long time to build, and sometimes it's very sudden and out of nowhere.
It's a pairing I like simply because it's dynamic interests me even with the minimal interaction because they are technically both not main characters, even if Ivypool is still relevant. There's no room to fit countless "forced" and "rushed" relationships and make them more complex and slow.
Of course, I completely understand where you are coming from, I personally have never felt this pairing, or even a pairing like BlossomXThorn to be rushed or forced. It's perspective, really.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 9, 2017 21:47:24 GMT -5
Spoilers Below:>> I'm starting to find the argument: "She didn't have time to think of a mate, she was focusing on the prophecy and her sister's fling" thing to be a bit...idk, not exactly for this particular argument. Because one can easily say that that's one of the reasons why she never had time for a mate, but currently is okay with it??
>> Ivypool was an apprentice until Sign of the Moon, meaning she spent four as a kit/paw, with only two books remaining in AVoS. An apprentice isn't allowed to have a mate because it's deem as distracting for their training, so why would Ivypool be interested in on back then, the majority of the series?
>> I also think it's weird to compare this to her sister, who had two love interest. Dovewing's bad luck in the romance department shouldn't hinder her sister's chances of whether she wanted a mate or not. Bumblestripe admired Dovepaw when they were both apprentices, but didn't try to romantically pursue her until she became a warrior, which was also in Sign of the Moon. The only reason we see more development on Dovewing and Tigerheart's side is because they were meeting while she was still an apprentice. They went on the journey to the beavers together, and continued meeting even when they came back. I found it strange no one else noticed the "child grooming" there tbh. But anyways.
>> Ivypool, from the start, didn't get much of a break. She was compared to her sister, whom was popular in the clan thanks to her powers, and kept in the dark about her secrets. She ended up being tricked into joining the DF, and couldn't stop going even if she wanted to. She and her sister had several fall outs, and then she finds out she's breaking the code and seeing a cat from another clan, Tigerheart. She didn't have time to think about any romance, especially when she was an apprentice most of the series anyways.
>> Likewise with Dovewing, ironically, she realized she didn't have time for Tigerheart, even if it was much later on, when she was thinking about the upcoming battle, and the prohecy, and ended things with him. She didn't choose Bumblestripe until AFTER the war with the Dark Forest ended. Because he seemed like the more logical and easier chose at the time.
>> Notice how both cats were pursuing Dovewing though, she just happened to eventually choose one of them for good. Tigerheart is the one that came up with the idea of continuing on seeing one another after the journey, and Bumblestripe was the one with the obvious, so obvious every cat knew in her clan, crush on Dovewing.
>> In Ivypool's case, Fernsong is a tom that openly seems comfortable around her, compliments her in his own way, and the two seem to be mutually flirting. He's interested in her, and she doesn't mind him, and seems interested as well. It's really that simple. It's not the feat of it can just happen to be any cat, it's more like, eventually a cat came along and these two were able to click.
>> Also the whole, his character was only made to be her love interest, I mean that happens all the time in other media. Sailor Moon for example, Tuxedo Mask, aka Mamoru, was Usagi, aka Sailor Moon's, love interest and was created to be just that. But later his character was expanded upon on, instead of just being the chivalrous knight that shows up, saves the day and leaves. We don't know if Fernsong's character will be expanded upon, in the same way, when he and Ivypool, if they do, get together.
>> There's too many cats in ThunderClan. And the only reason Ivypool is really getting any screen time anymore is because sh e was Twigpaw's mentor, and the other reason is because she's Dovewing's sister, who is Tigerheart's love interest, who is one of the POV's of the series, with a flipping full blown SE that unsurprisingly revolves around his pinning for Dovewing. And considering Dovewing is the main factor as to why he left in the first place and their forbidden relationship, it's really no wonder she's seen as one of the MC's in the story. Another thing is that Tigerheart and Dovewing were constantly going at one another now and then, since SC was staying in TC for a while, in fact, SC had a lot of focus period because of Darktail, and Violetpaw's POV in the clan. Even Needletail had a POV for a special chapter. Ivypool doesn't really have an association to SC, other than knowing Tigerheart and being ex trainees. Dovewing does though, and it's because of that association that she was in focus from a writing perspective, and that ultimately led to her eventually joining SC. This is also why Violet and Twig are no long in focus though, because both are now in SkyClan and will most likely only become in focus when the POV is moved back on SkyClan, period, them are Hawkwing even.
>> Meanwhile TC has plenty of other POV's and focus that would prioritize over Ivypool, like Alderheart and Sparkpelt. TC has waaaay too many cats, period, personally I never minded Ivypool having kits, but I didn't want her to have them yet because TC is flooding over with their numbers tbh, not to mention there's also Cinderheart and Blossomfall's litter too.
>> Another thing that can be said is that maybe Ivypool just wasn't ready or interested in mates or kits, yet, doesn't mean she never would have been or could have been. Doesn't mean she needs them to be happy, it's just really her choice. I do agree, not everyone has to be with someone. I was personally okay with Thornclaw not having a mate, mostly due to the fact that his age makes him past his prime, it's even something the Erins noted in the series, having kits at his age isn't common. Ivypool, however, is less than half his age, and has plenty of more time to figure out about what she wants in her life and if she wants to romantically pursue some cat or not. Not to mention other cats, around her age are even having their own litters by now; Blossomfall and Cinderheart. Heck even Lilyheart, who's much younger, had a litter before Ivypool.
>> Did anyone ever even consider the possibility that Ivypool is actually a Gray-romantic? An individual who doesn't experience romantic attraction often, but still can? They're usually seen between being Aromantic and Romantic on the spectrum, and maybe that's why Ivypool never show any interest in the past, I mean if you're looking for a reason past the fact that she was an apprentice most of the time?
>> Some other things to note, after the DF battle, which is leading into BrS, Fernsong is only an apprentice at the time. We don't see him having any interactions as a warrior until AVoS.
>> Not all character need to be blatantly, or verbally mooning over the idea of kits. In fact, I think Ivypool doing anything along those lines would be strange imo, it seems like something Dovewing would do more.
>> If you want any implications Ivypool is interested in a mate or kit, now, how is her and Fernsong flirting no different? It's time after the war, they've obviously been spending time around on another, and they're comfortable, along with patrolling together. It's just that it's not from Ivypool's POV, otherwise we would have seen much much more of them. In fact, even IvyFern, as of right now, has more development than BlossomThorn, which only had one throw away line, from Lionblaze's POV at that.
>> If Ivypool does seem to be the pregnant she-cat at the end of of TS, I hope the Erins show things from Ivypool's perspective (a person can dream), while Dovewing is missing, since TS intertwines with the canon plotline. They'll probably choose Alderheart though, but that's a good opportunity to show more of Fern and Ivy and how they possibly get together if they actually do.
>> Squirrelflight seems just fine to me right now. It's not written in stone when she'll die and how, just like Ivypool being deputy. I personally think the Erins will choose Lionblaze, unfortunately, even if Ivypool is the most capable. Also having kits, doesn't devalue Ivypool's character, nor her chances of being deputy. I mean, another cat could always take over for her while she's nursing, or Squirrelflight might live long enough until her kits become apprentices. Squirrelflight had kits while she was deputy, I don't see why Ivypool couldn't either.
>> A crackship is a pairing between two or more character that haven't even interacted or a pairing that would have been unlikely to happen, period.
>> You can have a strong personality and have kits and a mate. Queens can have strong personalities period, did everyone forget about Brindleface when she gave Firestar a life?
>> So if Dovewing is the one Ivypool loves the most, and she's losing that cat, then I don't see why it's any harm if she found comfort in another cat over that? I think I probably see Blossomfall the same way, her neglect from her mother, even her brother and being unable to face her sister, made her have the need for her own family. I may not like ThornBlossom, but I'm okay if it means that Blossomfall is happy, and no longer depressed. Ivypool lost her only littermate to ShadowClan and a cat she can't stand, I'm pretty sure she won't take the news well. Meanwhile as far as she knows, her sister left, out there alone, possibly dead, or never coming back, she was restless when they were checking other camps for her apparently. I feel bad for her, so I can definitely see Fernsong comforting her about it. Or maybe along those lines, but this is now headcanon territory I guess.
>> It's okay if you think Ivypool should stay single, I personally have no problem with her having kits or a mate, or getting with Fernsong. But I agree, it would be nice if the Erins could show us more about them, I just doubt they would considering the current story circumstances.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 9, 2017 22:06:19 GMT -5
I don't have much of a problem with Ivy x Fern. However, Ivypool never gave much of an indication that she would even want to start a family of her own, so I do see where the slight dislike for the pairing comes from. Yeah, Ivypool could've developed an interest in wanting a mate after the Great Battle, but we never get to actually see it.
The Erins are telling, but not doing a whole lot of showing save for a few scenes Ivypool and Fernsong had in TAS. As a writer myself, telling instead of showing is something a professional writer should never do. In fact, I noticed that this goes for alot of relationships for the series.
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Post by Lightflame on Sept 9, 2017 22:25:22 GMT -5
Honestly, I don't despise this pairing as much as I do, say...Qibli/Moon. I would be fine with it if Fernsong was a character, rather than a caricature.
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Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Sept 10, 2017 11:17:22 GMT -5
The general argument of independent cat = no mate/kits should be had needs to go. I get everyone wants more single cats, but quality over quantity any day with these things. At least it's getting development and Ivypool is still showing her indepence. It's fine because she's older and has someone that can show interest. Remember, no cat showed real interest in het either like Dovewing. If either of the sisters should have remained single, it should have been Dovewing.
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Ivy x Fern
Sept 10, 2017 12:09:45 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2017 12:09:45 GMT -5
Honestly, I don't despise this pairing as much as I do, say...Qibli/Moon. I would be fine with it if Fernsong was a character, rather than a caricature. I don't hate it or even dislike it either. I just feel like shoving Ivypool into romance was unnecessary.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 10, 2017 14:18:34 GMT -5
I don't see how they're "shoving" her into one. Literally all we've seen of them so far, thanks to the perspectives of Alderheart, is them flirting casually with one another. We don't know if they're mates, we don't know if Ivy is expecting his kits, we don't know the actual detes, because Ivy isn't a MC anymore, and neither is Fernsong, and the focus of the story keeps shifting. If they really wanted to shove Ivy into a relationship they would have done it the moment AVoS started, when Fernsong was a warrior, and then boom, kits. But the Erins seem to be showing implications, while easing into it first. And I agree with Rainleaf, if any cat should have stayed single it should have been Dovewing.
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Ivy x Fern
Sept 10, 2017 14:31:22 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2017 14:31:22 GMT -5
I don't see how they're "shoving" her into one. Literally all we've seen of them so far, thanks to the perspectives of Alderheart, is them flirting casually with one another. We don't know if they're mates, we don't know if Ivy is expecting his kits, we don't know the actual detes, because Ivy isn't a MC anymore, and neither is Fernsong, and the focus of the story keeps shifting. If they really wanted to shove Ivy into a relationship they would have done it the moment AVoS started, when Fernsong was a warrior, and then boom, kits. But the Erins seem to be showing implications, while easing into it first. And I agree with Rainleaf, if any cat should have stayed single it should have been Dovewing. Didn't Shadowkit's dream say otherwise though?
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 11, 2017 21:13:53 GMT -5
I don't see how they're "shoving" her into one. Literally all we've seen of them so far, thanks to the perspectives of Alderheart, is them flirting casually with one another. We don't know if they're mates, we don't know if Ivy is expecting his kits, we don't know the actual detes, because Ivy isn't a MC anymore, and neither is Fernsong, and the focus of the story keeps shifting. If they really wanted to shove Ivy into a relationship they would have done it the moment AVoS started, when Fernsong was a warrior, and then boom, kits. But the Erins seem to be showing implications, while easing into it first. And I agree with Rainleaf, if any cat should have stayed single it should have been Dovewing. Didn't Shadowkit's dream say otherwise though? It's implied the cat is Ivypool, but there isn't a solid confirmation.
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Post by Moonblazer on Sept 11, 2017 22:04:06 GMT -5
My main question is what is with the Independent She-Cat = No Mate thing??? Isn't that...the opposite of a progressive opinion? The Warriors fandom seems to really like to crap on she-cats with mates/kits as being worse than she-cats without them. I don't get it. 100 percent agreement ^^^^^
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 11, 2017 22:44:25 GMT -5
My main question is what is with the Independent She-Cat = No Mate thing??? Isn't that...the opposite of a progressive opinion? The Warriors fandom seems to really like to crap on she-cats with mates/kits as being worse than she-cats without them. I don't get it. From what I've noticed, especially on tumblr, female characters tend to get more heat in the series. But at the same time, in the series they don't get much recognition or are treated poorly compared to most male characters anyways. I also think the the whole concept of the Independent She-Cat = No Mate thing stems from the whole Becoming a Queen = Losing value as a character, issue the fandom has as well. Probably due to how the Erins write most of the romances in the series, romances I'm actually, for the most part not fond of? And one of the few times we actually have the Erins trying to break their "norms" from a writing perspective, it gets even more heat just because of who the pairing probably consists of; Ivypool and Fernsong. I've noticed the majority of the fandom prefers Ivypool being paired with another she-cat, or being single, I don't mind either, and I also like the idea of her being poly. But it's getting to a point where it's a bit rabid? This is also why I don't really mind Thorn x Blossom anymore? I guess it's just I don't really care, and if they happen to get a mate or not, good for them. If they stay single, cool. If they end up with another cat of the same gender, nice. But I don't see how any of those factors make a character worth more or worth less, it probably just comes down to perspective and how a person personally values a certain character.
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Rainbow
Pandean
Ferncloud Deserves Better
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Post by Pandean on Sept 11, 2017 23:21:44 GMT -5
My main question is what is with the Independent She-Cat = No Mate thing??? Isn't that...the opposite of a progressive opinion? The Warriors fandom seems to really like to crap on she-cats with mates/kits as being worse than she-cats without them. I don't get it. From what I've noticed, especially on tumblr, female characters tend to get more heat in the series. But at the same time, in the series they don't get much recognition or are treated poorly compared to most male characters anyways. I also think the the whole concept of the Independent She-Cat = No Mate thing stems from the whole Becoming a Queen = Losing value as a character, issue the fandom has as well. Probably due to how the Erins write most of the romances in the series, romances I'm actually, for the most part not fond of? And one of the few times we actually have the Erins trying to break their "norms" from a writing perspective, it gets even more heat just because of who the pairing probably consists of; Ivypool and Fernsong. I've noticed the majority of the fandom prefers Ivypool being paired with another she-cat, or being single, I don't mind either, and I also like the idea of her being poly. But it's getting to a point where it's a bit rabid? This is also why I don't really mind Thorn x Blossom anymore? I guess it's just I don't really care, and if they happen to get a mate or not, good for them. If they stay single, cool. If they end up with another cat of the same gender, nice. But I don't see how any of those factors make a character worth more or worth less, it probably just comes down to perspective and how a person personally values a certain character. I personally find the idea that a cat loses value when they have kits in-series kinda misogynistic. We don't hold the male warriors to the same standards like that. IDK, it just seems backwards. I get wanting strong female characters but it's like some people think that to have strong female characters they must lack all that is considered feminine. Similar to how people will argue about how much Arya from GoT is a strong female character but will still say Sansa is a whiny little naive *explicit*, despite her character growth, simply because she is feminine. I just don't get it. The Erins don't write stellar five star romances. I mean, this is a book targeted toward middle schoolers if we're being honest, yes a lot of the fans aren't, but at the same time there is a target audience. Like most books. You can have a crossover book (hell, the book of mine that's being published is in MacMillan/St. Martin's crossover YA/Adult imprint!) but Warriors is not marketed as such. So, it's not going to have the best, most wonderful developed romances. Especially since it is not a series focused on romance. I'm LGBTQ so I while I would had loved an MC being openly gay in the books proper, it probably won't happen for a while. That's just how it is, unfortunately. I mean, for the longest time we couldn't even mention LGBTQ on the forums proper. IDK.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 11, 2017 23:35:49 GMT -5
My main question is what is with the Independent She-Cat = No Mate thing??? Isn't that...the opposite of a progressive opinion? The Warriors fandom seems to really like to crap on she-cats with mates/kits as being worse than she-cats without them. I don't get it. I don't think it has to do with Ivypool herself, but more the like people think the Erins just can't write characters properly once they become mothers. That, and plenty of she-cats in the series have had mates and kits, so I guess people just want something new. I don't exactly agree with the argument myself, but I do see where it comes from, and then you could also argue that this can happen in real life too. I think it might also stem from how in the old days, women were expected to provide offspring and that's it, so it may be a little irritating how "strong, independent women" in general end up with a love interest, especially if the story never gave any indication during the story proper that said character would want that, so it just comes off as random to some. Hopefully that all made sense. Honestly, I just hope Ivypool's character doesn't get changed too drastically, and given what Kate hinted at on her blog, it seems like Ivypool and Fernsong will still be the same characters as before for the most part, so I'm personally not worried at all. Not that I was all that interested in Ivypool anyway, though.
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Rainbow
Pandean
Ferncloud Deserves Better
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Post by Pandean on Sept 11, 2017 23:48:35 GMT -5
My main question is what is with the Independent She-Cat = No Mate thing??? Isn't that...the opposite of a progressive opinion? The Warriors fandom seems to really like to crap on she-cats with mates/kits as being worse than she-cats without them. I don't get it. I don't think it has to do with Ivypool herself, but more the like people think the Erins just can't write characters properly once they become mothers. That, and plenty of she-cats in the series have had mates and kits, so I guess people just want something new. I don't exactly agree with the argument myself, but I do see where it comes from, and then you could also argue that this can happen in real life too. I think it might also stem from how in the old days, women were expected to provide offspring and that's it, so it may be a little irritating how "strong, independent women" in general end up with a love interest, especially if the story never gave any indication during the story proper that said character would want that, so it just comes off as random to some. Hopefully that all made sense. Honestly, I just hope Ivypool's character doesn't get changed too drastically, and given what Kate hinted at on her blog, it seems like Ivypool and Fernsong will still be the same characters as before for the most part, so I'm personally not worried at all. Not that I was all that interested in Ivypool anyway, though. Yeah, it makes sense. The Erins are not really the best writers around, no offense to them, and their handle of characters can get a little...poor. I think it ends up being a conversation about what society thinks of when we think of strong, independent women. A lot of times, I think society dislikes the idea of women expecting to provide offspring/etc. that we all go to the extreme other side of things when in reality, strong, independent women CAN be married, have kids, hell even be a housewife, etc. But we almost have this visceral reaction to the idea nowadays. It seems because of those gender roles, the image of a woman being or engaging in 'feminine' things almost seems 'bad' in a way. Which makes me think that there needs to be a fundamental change in how we as people view "feminine" things, in general But I'm getting way too into sociology and women's studies here welp It's just something I've noticed on certain discussions here. Ivypool is one of the characters I do quite like and I don't necessarily care whether or not she has a mate. From what I've seen of his character, I don't mind Fernsong and I prefer it being a newer, less-established character versus, say, a character already established pre-BrS.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 11, 2017 23:57:39 GMT -5
I don't think it has to do with Ivypool herself, but more the like people think the Erins just can't write characters properly once they become mothers. That, and plenty of she-cats in the series have had mates and kits, so I guess people just want something new. I don't exactly agree with the argument myself, but I do see where it comes from, and then you could also argue that this can happen in real life too. I think it might also stem from how in the old days, women were expected to provide offspring and that's it, so it may be a little irritating how "strong, independent women" in general end up with a love interest, especially if the story never gave any indication during the story proper that said character would want that, so it just comes off as random to some. Hopefully that all made sense. Honestly, I just hope Ivypool's character doesn't get changed too drastically, and given what Kate hinted at on her blog, it seems like Ivypool and Fernsong will still be the same characters as before for the most part, so I'm personally not worried at all. Not that I was all that interested in Ivypool anyway, though. Yeah, it makes sense. The Erins are not really the best writers around, no offense to them, and their handle of characters can get a little...poor. I think it ends up being a conversation about what society thinks of when we think of strong, independent women. A lot of times, I think society dislikes the idea of women expecting to provide offspring/etc. that we all go to the extreme other side of things when in reality, strong, independent women CAN be married, have kids, hell even be a housewife, etc. But we almost have this visceral reaction to the idea nowadays. It seems because of those gender roles, the image of a woman being or engaging in 'feminine' things almost seems 'bad' in a way. Which makes me think that there needs to be a fundamental change in how we as people view "feminine" things, in general But I'm getting way too into sociology and women's studies here welp It's just something I've noticed on certain discussions here. Ivypool is one of the characters I do quite like and I don't necessarily care whether or not she has a mate. From what I've seen of his character, I don't mind Fernsong and I prefer it being a newer, less-established character versus, say, a character already established pre-BrS. This I definitely agree with. I think in general, there needs to be more characters who are feminine while still standing up for themselves, which is why I love Elle Woods from Legally Blonde. Honestly, I don't care if Ivypool gets a mate or not, but I'm also glad it's a new character rather than an old one, otherwise it would appear even more random than giving her a mate at all.
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Rainbow
Pandean
Ferncloud Deserves Better
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Post by Pandean on Sept 12, 2017 0:00:02 GMT -5
Yeah, it makes sense. The Erins are not really the best writers around, no offense to them, and their handle of characters can get a little...poor. I think it ends up being a conversation about what society thinks of when we think of strong, independent women. A lot of times, I think society dislikes the idea of women expecting to provide offspring/etc. that we all go to the extreme other side of things when in reality, strong, independent women CAN be married, have kids, hell even be a housewife, etc. But we almost have this visceral reaction to the idea nowadays. It seems because of those gender roles, the image of a woman being or engaging in 'feminine' things almost seems 'bad' in a way. Which makes me think that there needs to be a fundamental change in how we as people view "feminine" things, in general But I'm getting way too into sociology and women's studies here welp It's just something I've noticed on certain discussions here. Ivypool is one of the characters I do quite like and I don't necessarily care whether or not she has a mate. From what I've seen of his character, I don't mind Fernsong and I prefer it being a newer, less-established character versus, say, a character already established pre-BrS. This I definitely agree with. I think in general, there needs to be more characters who are feminine while still standing up for themselves, which is why I love Elle Woods from Legally Blonde. Honestly, I don't care if Ivypool gets a mate or not, but I'm also glad it's a new character rather than an old one, otherwise it would appear even more random than giving her a mate at all. Legally Blonde!!! Similar to why I love Sansa Stark from GoT. Feminine, yes. Strong? Hells yeah! Yeah. Like, I might take some offensive, if she got paired with Thornclaw. She never interacted with him. Blossomfall, did, ironically. Didn't another cat even think they might become mates?
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 12, 2017 0:08:13 GMT -5
This I definitely agree with. I think in general, there needs to be more characters who are feminine while still standing up for themselves, which is why I love Elle Woods from Legally Blonde. Honestly, I don't care if Ivypool gets a mate or not, but I'm also glad it's a new character rather than an old one, otherwise it would appear even more random than giving her a mate at all. Legally Blonde!!! Similar to why I love Sansa Stark from GoT. Feminine, yes. Strong? Hells yeah! Yeah. Like, I might take some offensive, if she got paired with Thornclaw. She never interacted with him. Blossomfall, did, ironically. Didn't another cat even think they might become mates? Especially in the last episode! Go Sansa! I've always loved her more than I did Arya and Dany, especially in the later seasons. But anyway, yeah ThornxBlossom is what I was thinking about when I was talking about Ivypool preferably getting together with a new character than an old one. And yes, Lionblaze thought they were mates in TLH, but it seemed more like a throwaway line at the time and it turned out that they were only training using moves they learned from the Dark Forest.
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Rainbow
Pandean
Ferncloud Deserves Better
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Post by Pandean on Sept 12, 2017 0:10:43 GMT -5
Legally Blonde!!! Similar to why I love Sansa Stark from GoT. Feminine, yes. Strong? Hells yeah! Yeah. Like, I might take some offensive, if she got paired with Thornclaw. She never interacted with him. Blossomfall, did, ironically. Didn't another cat even think they might become mates? Especially in the last episode! Go Sansa! I've always loved her more than I did Arya and Dany, especially in the later seasons. But anyway, yeah ThornxBlossom is what I was thinking about when I was talking about Ivypool preferably getting together with a new character than an old one. And yes, Lionblaze thought they were mates in TLH, but it seemed more like a throwaway line at the time and it turned out that they were only training using moves they learned from the Dark Forest. Sansa has always been my favorite character. Dany annoys the hell out of me and I just....can't with Arya's character this past season. Yeah. I think with ThornxBlossom, at least we've seen them together and one could surmise that while they might have been training together (I believe they were also racing or something, I forget what happened exactly) the fact that they chose to train together could be considered something. There was at least something *there* however tiny. Versus IvyxThorn in which there was nothing. At all.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Ivy x Fern
Sept 12, 2017 0:16:38 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 12, 2017 0:16:38 GMT -5
Especially in the last episode! Go Sansa! I've always loved her more than I did Arya and Dany, especially in the later seasons. But anyway, yeah ThornxBlossom is what I was thinking about when I was talking about Ivypool preferably getting together with a new character than an old one. And yes, Lionblaze thought they were mates in TLH, but it seemed more like a throwaway line at the time and it turned out that they were only training using moves they learned from the Dark Forest. Sansa has always been my favorite character. Dany annoys the hell out of me and I just....can't with Arya's character this past season. Yeah. I think with ThornxBlossom, at least we've seen them together and one could surmise that while they might have been training together (I believe they were also racing or something, I forget what happened exactly) the fact that they chose to train together could be considered something. There was at least something *there* however tiny. Versus IvyxThorn in which there was nothing. At all. Same. And yeah, that's why I'm not that against Thorn x Blossom. At least they had interaction before becoming mates.
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Post by Mistybreeze on Sept 12, 2017 12:51:31 GMT -5
I am getting sick and tired of hearing "Oh em gee! This ship doesn't have ten books of development, it therefore sucks and must be bashed" over every bloody relationship in this series. Fern and Ivy are background characters. Note the word "background." As in, not the focus of the book. Not focus = romance not getting a lot of screen time. How about instead of judging ships by how much we see them, judge them on what we do see. And what we've seen are two cats who compliment each other nicely and seem to really love each other.
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Ivy x Fern
Sept 12, 2017 13:01:00 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2017 13:01:00 GMT -5
I am getting sick and tired of hearing "Oh em gee! This ship doesn't have ten books of development, it therefore sucks and must be bashed" over every bloody relationship in this series. Fern and Ivy are background characters. Note the word "background." As in, not the focus of the book. Not focus = romance not getting a lot of screen time. How about instead of judging ships by how much we see them, judge them on what we do see. And what we've seen are two cats who compliment each other nicely and seem to really love each other. The reason people judge them based on screentime is because it feels unrealistic and forced to others if we don't see them often enough together. A perfect example for this would be Blossom x Thorn. Besides the scenes from Dovewing's Silence, did we ever see them together in the Dark Forest much? No they were never together. We've seen them talking to each other about it, but we've never seen them have romantic feelings for each other. It's the same for Fire x Spotted, or Silver x Gray. The two couples hardly meet, they see each other once and suddenly they're in love? The Erins can't write romance. They're probably not even handling Fernsong right. He's literally there for Ivypool's love life, which is unnecessary because she doesn't need a mate to be happy. The only decent one that's actually well written is Fire x Sand, but even then that one feels a little forced. People especially feel like Fernsong is forced upon Ivypool because that's the only reason he exists. There's no other reason why he's there except for being a useless minor character. Ivypool doesn't need a mate, period.
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Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Sept 12, 2017 14:40:22 GMT -5
I am getting sick and tired of hearing "Oh em gee! This ship doesn't have ten books of development, it therefore sucks and must be bashed" over every bloody relationship in this series. Fern and Ivy are background characters. Note the word "background." As in, not the focus of the book. Not focus = romance not getting a lot of screen time. How about instead of judging ships by how much we see them, judge them on what we do see. And what we've seen are two cats who compliment each other nicely and seem to really love each other. The reason people judge them based on screentime is because it feels unrealistic and forced to others if we don't see them often enough together. A perfect example for this would be Blossom x Thorn. Besides the scenes from Dovewing's Silence, did we ever see them together in the Dark Forest much? No they were never together. We've seen them talking to each other about it, but we've never seen them have romantic feelings for each other. It's the same for Fire x Spotted, or Silver x Gray. The two couples hardly meet, they see each other once and suddenly they're in love? The Erins can't write romance. They're probably not even handling Fernsong right. He's literally there for Ivypool's love life, which is unnecessary because she doesn't need a mate to be happy. The only decent one that's actually well written is Fire x Sand, but even then that one feels a little forced. People especially feel like Fernsong is forced upon Ivypool because that's the only reason he exists. There's no other reason why he's there except for being a useless minor character. Ivypool doesn't need a mate, period. No one needs a mate, yet they have them. Just because they don't need one doesn't mean they shouldn't. And it isn't like she's unhappy without Fernsong. The only thing making her unhappy is TigerxDove, which is ten times more unnecessary than IvyxFern.
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