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Post by asrise on Jul 27, 2024 21:57:15 GMT -5
I see people have pretty divided opinions on this arc in particular. Some people regard it as the best, some as the worst.
I think this is because the debate around TBC really puts those who want a more engaging and complex plot against those who want more developed characters.
Personally, I do not like TBC. I think it is more entertaining as a summary than a book series. The characters, including all three of the main characters, just don't strike a chord in me and as a result I don't care about anything that happens. On top of this, the series twists already established characters like Mothwing and Squirrelflight into whatever form fits the plot, which is extremely frustrating. The more prominent characters are permanently wrapped up in each other, and as a result, we don't really get any insight into the interpersonal clan politics that should be on centre stage.
In the second half of the series, TBC, like many warriors arcs, runs out of steam. The 4-6th books are all a mix of confusing new lore that I just couldn't bring myself to focus on, and the whole possession plot could have been more dark and poignant if, once again, I cared about the characters being possessed. By book 6, I just felt like I was reading in circles. Bristlefrost's death is an amazing concept, but it didn't really have much of an effect on me as I thought it would. It didn't feel anything close to the death of Grey Wing, and he actually went to StarClan.
Not to mention the fanservice that prevailed the entire series from the inclusion of Ashfur as the main villain to the spirit death of Darktail.
Now, I will stop my rant for now. This is just my experience with reading the books, after all. I think I may have such a bad opinion of TBC because I was told it was great, and I was genuinely excited for the plot (which had been partially spoiled to me before I started). But after getting through book four, I just wanted to get onto ASC. (And when I did, it was a massive breath of fresh air.)
All this aside, if you do like TBC, I'm sure you have your own reasons, and I respect that.
So, why do you think this arc is so divisive? Do you love it? Do you hate it? Am I completely wrong in saying that the characters are second to the plot?
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 27, 2024 22:13:03 GMT -5
I think this is because the debate around TBC really puts those who want a more engaging and complex plot against those who want more developed characters. This.
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Post by deerspirit on Jul 28, 2024 5:51:24 GMT -5
I like it. I just think it shouldnโt have been in Shadowsightโs, Rootspringโs, or Bristlefrostโs povโs. I think it would have been better in Bramblestarโs, Squirrelflightโs, and Ashfurโs povโs since the entire plot just focused on them anyway.
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Post by silverstarpenguin on Jul 28, 2024 6:13:47 GMT -5
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, as they should be. I can understand why you would like more development on the characters' side for upcoming arcs. I prefer plot-oriented books. Sure, the ones that have characters who show progress throughout their arc are even better, but the course of the action plays an important role for me. I prefer dialogue to narration, but surprisingly, ASC's plot, focused on dialogue between Clan leaders or main characters, just isn't fit for me. Coming from a person who is always interested in geopolitical affairs, it may seem strange, but ASC's Clan politics theme can't really attract me. What I appreciate about the previous arc are the supernatural events which seem to show that the characters truly struggle to reach their goal.
In TBC, all 3 protagonists were equally implicated in the matter, whether manipulated, having taken part in the Impostor's campaign to punish Codebreakers or born with the ability to see ghosts. In the current arc, Frostpaw was carrying the burden alone in the first 3 books, while Nightheart and Sunbeam were mostly concerned on how the new politics would affect their cross-Clan relationship.
These are the reasons why The Broken Code is my 2nd favorite arc.
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Post by asrise on Jul 28, 2024 7:30:50 GMT -5
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, as they should be. I can understand why you would like more development on the characters' side for upcoming arcs. I prefer plot-oriented books. Sure, the ones that have characters who show progress throughout their arc are even better, but the course of the action plays an important role for me. I prefer dialogue to narration, but surprisingly, ASC's plot, focused on dialogue between Clan leaders or main characters, just isn't fit for me. Coming from a person who is always interested in geopolitical affairs, it may seem strange, but ASC's Clan politics theme can't really attract me. What I appreciate about the previous arc are the supernatural events which seem to show that the characters truly struggle to reach their goal. In TBC, all 3 protagonists were equally implicated in the matter, whether manipulated, having taken part in the Impostor's campaign to punish Codebreakers or born with the ability to see ghosts. In the current arc, Frostpaw was carrying the burden alone in the first 3 books, while Nightheart and Sunbeam were mostly concerned on how the new politics would affect their cross-Clan relationship. These are the reasons why The Broken Code is my 2nd favorite arc. I agree that in ASC the characters are pretty unequally involved in their own plots, especially in the first few books, but in my opinion, each one of the ASC protagonists are capable of carrying a plot on their own (We saw this in River, and I loved it), whereas none of the TBC protags are. I guess I am just not that interested in the supernatural, and the new lore made the plot hard to follow in the last half. And in the first half, I would have liked to focus on the war a little more. Maybe a Spotfur perspective would have been useful? I love the concept of the rebels, but they were just not given enough time to be satisfying.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jul 28, 2024 9:31:35 GMT -5
The notion that it's character development vs plot does not follow for this because I find the TBC trio really, really fun from a character perspective. Shadowsight's journey is particularly consistent as he goes from young and desperate to prove himself to the point of meddling with forces beyond his comprehension, into a self destructive spiral of regret, and then finally towards expiation and acceptance that he had been groomed and that there is a world without Ashfur's shadow in it. He changes a lot over the course of the books and his journey is very poignant. Rootspring and Bristlefrost are good too, and I think Bristlefrost in particular is underrated for the thematic ironies in her arc and how she sets up parallels with Ashfur and some of the other antagonistic cats. The romance isn't as foreshadowed as well as it could be, but it's got enough passion in it to put it in the upper tier of Warriors romances anyway.
It felt like Warriors doing a Gothic story, and in that respect it succeeds immensely in its atmosphere above all else. There is a dreary, oppressive atmosphere that's maintained constantly throughout in everyone's mood and even in the very environment itself, and I really enjoyed it. It felt like it was a unique setting, and not just the lake again. Everyone is pushed to the edge and we see cats react really, really desperately. Lionblaze, Tigerheartstar, Mothwing, and Spotfur really shine here as they get pushed to the edge and you see the weight of these events just grind them into the ground. The atmosphere thus gives more opportunities to show character here than they would otherwise. One can't forget the effects it had on Brambleclaw either, with his current great trauma in ASC deriving solely from this arc.
So yes, I do enjoy the intricacy and grandeur of the plot, but it's far from the most important reason why I like it. It is not a dichotomy of character development and plot at all when it comes to liking TBC.
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Post by asrise on Jul 28, 2024 17:49:27 GMT -5
The notion that it's character development vs plot does not follow for this because I find the TBC trio really, really fun from a character perspective. Shadowsight's journey is particularly consistent as he goes from young and desperate to prove himself to the point of meddling with forces beyond his comprehension, into a self destructive spiral of regret, and then finally towards expiation and acceptance that he had been groomed and that there is a world without Ashfur's shadow in it. He changes a lot over the course of the books and his journey is very poignant. Rootspring and Bristlefrost are good too, and I think Bristlefrost in particular is underrated for the thematic ironies in her arc and how she sets up parallels with Ashfur and some of the other antagonistic cats. The romance isn't as foreshadowed as well as it could be, but it's got enough passion in it to put it in the upper tier of Warriors romances anyway. It felt like Warriors doing a Gothic story, and in that respect it succeeds immensely in its atmosphere above all else. There is a dreary, oppressive atmosphere that's maintained constantly throughout in everyone's mood and even in the very environment itself, and I really enjoyed it. It felt like it was a unique setting, and not just the lake again. Everyone is pushed to the edge and we see cats react really, really desperately. Lionblaze, Tigerheartstar, Mothwing, and Spotfur really shine here as they get pushed to the edge and you see the weight of these events just grind them into the ground. The atmosphere thus gives more opportunities to show character here than they would otherwise. One can't forget the effects it had on Brambleclaw either, with his current great trauma in ASC deriving solely from this arc. So yes, I do enjoy the intricacy and grandeur of the plot, but it's far from the most important reason why I like it. It is not a dichotomy of character development and plot at all when it comes to liking TBC. I think that this is a good point. I can definitely see what you're saying, it is all there in the series. But again, the execution of this fails, in my opinion, to actually engage me. I like the sound of what people describe TBC as, but I just found that the books were disappointing reads. Let me give the situation that Brambleclaw went through as an example. I know that Brambleclaw has gone through trauma, and I know that it is important to the characters to get him back. But to me, I have nothing to grab onto when it comes to his experiences. I felt detached, and like getting Brambleclaw back was a more of a fetch-quest at a certain point. I do not feel the desperation, but I know it is there. Maybe it is a little irrational. I should like TBC, based on what it brings to the table, but it doesn't land for me. I can't really name what it is that is wrong with this series. If it isn't the characters, or the plot, or the setting/atmosphere, what could it be?
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Post by ๐ฃ๐ฒ๐ท๐พ๐ฟ๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ต on Jul 28, 2024 18:30:23 GMT -5
I personally really love the arc, especially in its exploration of the afterlife and what a StarClan cat could be capable of if they pushed their powers to the extreme. Ashfur was always my favorite villain and this arc just heightened it.
That said, it's definitely not perfect. For example, and I say this as someone who doesn't even mind RootxBristle, but at the very least, it absolutely could've been built up better on Bristlefrost's end, and I would've loved to have seen more interactions between them and Shadowsight prior to them all going to the Dark Forest, as well as seeing Bristlefrost mourn Rosepetal and Stemleaf for a bit longer than she did. I also feel like they could've done more with Ashfur prior to the reveal too, like maybe they could've even committed to Bumblestripe actually being a secondary antagonist instead of Berrynose for example, even if temporarily. Maybe being around Ashfur so much makes Bristlefrost particularly hostile towards Spotfur until she snaps out of it, etc...
So I definitely agree about there being alot to be desired, but at least for me, it's not to the point where it affects my enjoyment of it. The arc actually condemning Ashfur after all these years and letting the characters actually question StarClan to the point of breaking the status quo definitely helps, too.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jul 28, 2024 19:00:16 GMT -5
The notion that it's character development vs plot does not follow for this because I find the TBC trio really, really fun from a character perspective. Shadowsight's journey is particularly consistent as he goes from young and desperate to prove himself to the point of meddling with forces beyond his comprehension, into a self destructive spiral of regret, and then finally towards expiation and acceptance that he had been groomed and that there is a world without Ashfur's shadow in it. He changes a lot over the course of the books and his journey is very poignant. Rootspring and Bristlefrost are good too, and I think Bristlefrost in particular is underrated for the thematic ironies in her arc and how she sets up parallels with Ashfur and some of the other antagonistic cats. The romance isn't as foreshadowed as well as it could be, but it's got enough passion in it to put it in the upper tier of Warriors romances anyway. It felt like Warriors doing a Gothic story, and in that respect it succeeds immensely in its atmosphere above all else. There is a dreary, oppressive atmosphere that's maintained constantly throughout in everyone's mood and even in the very environment itself, and I really enjoyed it. It felt like it was a unique setting, and not just the lake again. Everyone is pushed to the edge and we see cats react really, really desperately. Lionblaze, Tigerheartstar, Mothwing, and Spotfur really shine here as they get pushed to the edge and you see the weight of these events just grind them into the ground. The atmosphere thus gives more opportunities to show character here than they would otherwise. One can't forget the effects it had on Brambleclaw either, with his current great trauma in ASC deriving solely from this arc. So yes, I do enjoy the intricacy and grandeur of the plot, but it's far from the most important reason why I like it. It is not a dichotomy of character development and plot at all when it comes to liking TBC. I think that this is a good point. I can definitely see what you're saying, it is all there in the series. But again, the execution of this fails, in my opinion, to actually engage me. I like the sound of what people describe TBC as, but I just found that the books were disappointing reads. Let me give the situation that Brambleclaw went through as an example. I know that Brambleclaw has gone through trauma, and I know that it is important to the characters to get him back. But to me, I have nothing to grab onto when it comes to his experiences. I felt detached, and like getting Brambleclaw back was a more of a fetch-quest at a certain point. I do not feel the desperation, but I know it is there. Maybe it is a little irrational. I should like TBC, based on what it brings to the table, but it doesn't land for me. I can't really name what it is that is wrong with this series. If it isn't the characters, or the plot, or the setting/atmosphere, what could it be? I mean you said that the character development didn't work for you in the OP to begin with. If that is your problem with TBC then that is your problem with TBC, plain and simple. You don't need to justify it any further than that. I only took issue with the claim that TBC fans are by and large plot>character people, when not only is that not my experience with it, but I don't think it's a wide experience with it either given the way people talk about it. It's a little hard to find the pulse of fan opinion on something, but my general time with looking at TBC fanworks is actually very focused on the character stuff. I actually wish there was some more of the plot stuff; I would love to see fanart of some of the creepy ghost summoning rituals, the tree growing into the black water, and Ashfur's face appearing on Shadowsight's, for example. But more often than not, fan reaction tends to be about the way the characters feel, hence I feel that this IS in fact an important aspect in the enjoyment of people who liked TBC. But certainly, anyone can have an opinion on something and I don't think it would be odd to say that TBC's characters did not grab you at all.
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#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Jul 28, 2024 22:00:05 GMT -5
I wanted to like TBC, but it was just poorly written.
-Too much focus went to older characters. -I didn't care much for the main trio. -Same dialogue over and over again. (What should we do with BrambleAsh? How do we get Bramblestar back?)
Honestly, I didn't care that Ashfur went to StarClan. Worse cats were able to go there, anyway.
The plot idea was interesting, but I think it could've been written differently.
- -
I guess it all comes down to taste, and there isn't anything wrong with that.
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Post by Birdskip on Jul 28, 2024 23:29:32 GMT -5
I find a lot of the concepts compelling, but ultimately I just donโt like the writing in Warriors much and it does not make the supporting characters as interesting as other arcs do, or introduce many unique perspectives and issues. It completely overhauls previously established lore and feels very ThunderClan centric. Despite this, it is one of my favourite Warriors arcs because of the protagonists and concept. I think many of the other arcs fail to be as cohesive, consistent, or dramatic. I think Bristlefrost and Shadowsight are some of the most fun protagonists to think about in concept.
I have a whole comment in another thread about defending the arc and I stand by it (I went into the protagonists individually), but it was mainly to argue that it wasnโt the worst arc. I still think itโs got flaws but imo itโs the strongest arc in some areas (especially protagonist characters)
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Asexual
Dark Forest Leader
volchitsa4
can't decide of I should keep my original joining name or switch back to houndsteeth....
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Post by volchitsa4 on Jul 29, 2024 6:51:52 GMT -5
The notion that it's character development vs plot does not follow for this because I find the TBC trio really, really fun from a character perspective. Shadowsight's journey is particularly consistent as he goes from young and desperate to prove himself to the point of meddling with forces beyond his comprehension, into a self destructive spiral of regret, and then finally towards expiation and acceptance that he had been groomed and that there is a world without Ashfur's shadow in it. He changes a lot over the course of the books and his journey is very poignant. Rootspring and Bristlefrost are good too, and I think Bristlefrost in particular is underrated for the thematic ironies in her arc and how she sets up parallels with Ashfur and some of the other antagonistic cats. The romance isn't as foreshadowed as well as it could be, but it's got enough passion in it to put it in the upper tier of Warriors romances anyway. It felt like Warriors doing a Gothic story, and in that respect it succeeds immensely in its atmosphere above all else. There is a dreary, oppressive atmosphere that's maintained constantly throughout in everyone's mood and even in the very environment itself, and I really enjoyed it. It felt like it was a unique setting, and not just the lake again. Everyone is pushed to the edge and we see cats react really, really desperately. Lionblaze, Tigerheartstar, Mothwing, and Spotfur really shine here as they get pushed to the edge and you see the weight of these events just grind them into the ground. The atmosphere thus gives more opportunities to show character here than they would otherwise. One can't forget the effects it had on Brambleclaw either, with his current great trauma in ASC deriving solely from this arc. So yes, I do enjoy the intricacy and grandeur of the plot, but it's far from the most important reason why I like it. It is not a dichotomy of character development and plot at all when it comes to liking TBC. Do you think you would be able to go more in depth on Bristlefrost? I genuinely want to hear more!! Also have to say it's nice to see something said eloquently about Shadowsight. I always struggle to put to words how I feel about him and you hit the nail on the head. I he sometimes gets shoved into the uwu sad boi box and it's not really that simple. He went through a lot of progression over the books.
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Post by wygolvillage on Jul 29, 2024 8:09:27 GMT -5
I love the Broken Code because I love horror more than any other genre. I like the melodramatic gothic horror-esque plot, I enjoyed the POV characters a lot and the side characters like Spotfur were quite good. I don't want to restate everything in the previous post about everyone being pushed to the brink, but it really did feel imposing, seeing the way all the clans were forced to react to the imposter. It felt insane, but in the way only Warriors can be when it's firing on all cylinders. You just have to be along for the ride rather than pulling against it.
I think whether you buy in to the Bristleroot romance is a huge deciding factor though and honestly I wish them getting together was placed at the end of Darkness Within and they could use Veil of Shadows to set up Bris's feelings more. But a relationship isn't just about when you get together; it's about what you do after, too, and I found their conflict about whether they'd be able to leave their clans for each other and the ultimate concession that they couldn't to be super compelling! Bris's dedication to her broken clan despite everything is really mature, and I think her death scene was also an instance of choosing the greater good over what her heart wants... I dunno, everyone hates on forbidden love plots but considering the overall focus on the code in this arc it thematically justifies itself. That Bris doesn't live to the end to see the laws be changed is a tragedy but it speaks to how dedicated she was to saving everyone. And I love tragedies!
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Post by asrise on Jul 29, 2024 8:48:07 GMT -5
On second thought, I would like to be a little more precise on what I don't like about TBC. My opinion on the main characters and the supporting characters is subjective, of course, but I think what fails the most for me are the background characters. By background, I mean like Rosepetal, Berrynose, or Stemleaf. It's been a problem I have for a while, but here I think their lack of input into the plot is most noticeable. For example, why does no one care when three cats die in battle against the imposter? That's unheard of in any arc besides the first, it should be very important! But Bristlefrost doesn't even spare much of a thought for Stemleaf, even though she was supposed to be close with him. (This is the stuff that sets me off, if you couldn't tell)
I quite like what the first three books were doing with the tense atmosphere around the clans, and I just wish that they had shown what the effect of that was on the general population. It would have made it a bit more genuine. Also, this phase of the series ends too quickly for me, and the supernatural 'looking for Brambleclaw' plot that follows doesn't do it for me. It does feel like everything repeats itself. As for Bristleroot, I don't have an opinion on them really. I can't really say I'm against them, but they don't have much going for them either. I'm not sure if it's more of a deciding factor for other people, though.
I don't really have an opinion on the horror elements either. I wasn't particularly disturbed by them, and it kind of just threw me because of the strange new lore that they had to set up for it to work. What I will say, though, is that I loved the dread of the first half when you didn't know what the imposter would do next, or how far he would go. That was effective.
TBC is not my least favourite arc. It's somewhere in the lower middle for me, because I can see the potential, and I like many of the plot points it explored. But it failed to actually land, and I got disappointed, and eventually, bored with it because of that. I wonder if the dislike of TBC could be explained by how much it is recommended and hyped up by others. If you dislike TBC as well, I'd like to know if that was part of it.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jul 30, 2024 16:26:21 GMT -5
The notion that it's character development vs plot does not follow for this because I find the TBC trio really, really fun from a character perspective. Shadowsight's journey is particularly consistent as he goes from young and desperate to prove himself to the point of meddling with forces beyond his comprehension, into a self destructive spiral of regret, and then finally towards expiation and acceptance that he had been groomed and that there is a world without Ashfur's shadow in it. He changes a lot over the course of the books and his journey is very poignant. Rootspring and Bristlefrost are good too, and I think Bristlefrost in particular is underrated for the thematic ironies in her arc and how she sets up parallels with Ashfur and some of the other antagonistic cats. The romance isn't as foreshadowed as well as it could be, but it's got enough passion in it to put it in the upper tier of Warriors romances anyway. It felt like Warriors doing a Gothic story, and in that respect it succeeds immensely in its atmosphere above all else. There is a dreary, oppressive atmosphere that's maintained constantly throughout in everyone's mood and even in the very environment itself, and I really enjoyed it. It felt like it was a unique setting, and not just the lake again. Everyone is pushed to the edge and we see cats react really, really desperately. Lionblaze, Tigerheartstar, Mothwing, and Spotfur really shine here as they get pushed to the edge and you see the weight of these events just grind them into the ground. The atmosphere thus gives more opportunities to show character here than they would otherwise. One can't forget the effects it had on Brambleclaw either, with his current great trauma in ASC deriving solely from this arc. So yes, I do enjoy the intricacy and grandeur of the plot, but it's far from the most important reason why I like it. It is not a dichotomy of character development and plot at all when it comes to liking TBC. Do you think you would be able to go more in depth on Bristlefrost? I genuinely want to hear more!! Also have to say it's nice to see something said eloquently about Shadowsight. I always struggle to put to words how I feel about him and you hit the nail on the head. I he sometimes gets shoved into the uwu sad boi box and it's not really that simple. He went through a lot of progression over the books. On Bristlefrost, I think there's a great deal of irony in having her be the primary liaison we have to Ashfur for the first few books. She is ALSO someone who was in love with someone who wouldn't love her back, and we are able to contrast the way she takes it with the way that Ashfur even then is creeping on Squirrelflight in the worst of ways. It sharpens the contrast between the protagonist and antagonist in a way that really hits home when the imposter's identity ends up revealed, and reveals Ashfur's self justification for the farce that it is. She is basically what Ashfur could have been if he didn't let obsession with revenge cloud every part of him. She dies thinking of just love on her mind, while Ashfur dies with nothing but his own self-imposed hatred and fear. Another thing I think is neat stems from the set-up of her intro being to save Rootspring by diving into icy water and then her final death taking place due to saving Shadowsight by diving into the dark water with Ashfur. It brings her full circle, beginning to end, that she stuck to her guns despite having had her good nature be taken advantage of multiple times. Her journey has more to do with being tempted to become more hardhearted and lose faith in others, but despite the challenges thrown her way, she sticks to her guns to the point of even wanting to save the Dark Forest cats. It ends up slotting neatly into the criticism of Starclan that TBC engages in, as a supposedly holy Starclan cat, Onestar sneers dismissively at the Dark Forest cats while Bristlefrost steps in front of them and defends them. Bristlefrost's kindness serves to demonstrate that Starclan is out of touch, and that their haughtiness is misplaced (and is indeed indirectly responsible for all the problems that occur in TBC). So Bristlefrost not only shows her own strength, but once again reveals the weaknesses of antagonistic cats by comparison. And yes, I do agree Shadowsight being reduced to sad boi is unfortunate. Fitting with the tone the arc went for, he's essentially the Dr. Jekyll or Victor Frankenstein of the early books, and his ambition to prove himself early on is part of it. It was a desire nurtured by Ashfur, but it was part of him too.
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Pixie
credit to poleyworld and pixelart
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Post by Pixie on Jul 31, 2024 6:36:55 GMT -5
Do you think you would be able to go more in depth on Bristlefrost? I genuinely want to hear more!! Also have to say it's nice to see something said eloquently about Shadowsight. I always struggle to put to words how I feel about him and you hit the nail on the head. I he sometimes gets shoved into the uwu sad boi box and it's not really that simple. He went through a lot of progression over the books. On Bristlefrost, I think there's a great deal of irony in having her be the primary liaison we have to Ashfur for the first few books. She is ALSO someone who was in love with someone who wouldn't love her back, and we are able to contrast the way she takes it with the way that Ashfur even then is creeping on Squirrelflight in the worst of ways. It sharpens the contrast between the protagonist and antagonist in a way that really hits home when the imposter's identity ends up revealed, and reveals Ashfur's self justification for the farce that it is. She is basically what Ashfur could have been if he didn't let obsession with revenge cloud every part of him. She dies thinking of just love on her mind, while Ashfur dies with nothing but his own self-imposed hatred and fear. Another thing I think is neat stems from the set-up of her intro being to save Rootspring by diving into icy water and then her final death taking place due to saving Shadowsight by diving into the dark water with Ashfur. It brings her full circle, beginning to end, that she stuck to her guns despite having had her good nature be taken advantage of multiple times. Her journey has more to do with being tempted to become more hardhearted and lose faith in others, but despite the challenges thrown her way, she sticks to her guns to the point of even wanting to save the Dark Forest cats. It ends up slotting neatly into the criticism of Starclan that TBC engages in, as a supposedly holy Starclan cat, Onestar sneers dismissively at the Dark Forest cats while Bristlefrost steps in front of them and defends them. Bristlefrost's kindness serves to demonstrate that Starclan is out of touch, and that their haughtiness is misplaced (and is indeed indirectly responsible for all the problems that occur in TBC). So Bristlefrost not only shows her own strength, but once again reveals the weaknesses of antagonistic cats by comparison. And yes, I do agree Shadowsight being reduced to sad boi is unfortunate. Fitting with the tone the arc went for, he's essentially the Dr. Jekyll or Victor Frankenstein of the early books, and his ambition to prove himself early on is part of it. It was a desire nurtured by Ashfur, but it was part of him too. This is such a beautiful take on Bristlefrost ๐ญ
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Asexual
Dark Forest Leader
volchitsa4
can't decide of I should keep my original joining name or switch back to houndsteeth....
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Post by volchitsa4 on Jul 31, 2024 6:52:12 GMT -5
Do you think you would be able to go more in depth on Bristlefrost? I genuinely want to hear more!! Also have to say it's nice to see something said eloquently about Shadowsight. I always struggle to put to words how I feel about him and you hit the nail on the head. I he sometimes gets shoved into the uwu sad boi box and it's not really that simple. He went through a lot of progression over the books. On Bristlefrost, I think there's a great deal of irony in having her be the primary liaison we have to Ashfur for the first few books. She is ALSO someone who was in love with someone who wouldn't love her back, and we are able to contrast the way she takes it with the way that Ashfur even then is creeping on Squirrelflight in the worst of ways. It sharpens the contrast between the protagonist and antagonist in a way that really hits home when the imposter's identity ends up revealed, and reveals Ashfur's self justification for the farce that it is. She is basically what Ashfur could have been if he didn't let obsession with revenge cloud every part of him. She dies thinking of just love on her mind, while Ashfur dies with nothing but his own self-imposed hatred and fear. Another thing I think is neat stems from the set-up of her intro being to save Rootspring by diving into icy water and then her final death taking place due to saving Shadowsight by diving into the dark water with Ashfur. It brings her full circle, beginning to end, that she stuck to her guns despite having had her good nature be taken advantage of multiple times. Her journey has more to do with being tempted to become more hardhearted and lose faith in others, but despite the challenges thrown her way, she sticks to her guns to the point of even wanting to save the Dark Forest cats. It ends up slotting neatly into the criticism of Starclan that TBC engages in, as a supposedly holy Starclan cat, Onestar sneers dismissively at the Dark Forest cats while Bristlefrost steps in front of them and defends them. Bristlefrost's kindness serves to demonstrate that Starclan is out of touch, and that their haughtiness is misplaced (and is indeed indirectly responsible for all the problems that occur in TBC). So Bristlefrost not only shows her own strength, but once again reveals the weaknesses of antagonistic cats by comparison. And yes, I do agree Shadowsight being reduced to sad boi is unfortunate. Fitting with the tone the arc went for, he's essentially the Dr. Jekyll or Victor Frankenstein of the early books, and his ambition to prove himself early on is part of it. It was a desire nurtured by Ashfur, but it was part of him too. Ohhh, I loved this. if you want to go more in depth about literally anything else about TBC you'll have a grand audience of me! My appreciation and love for Bristlefrost just went up a thousand after reading this. I always admired her for being so strong in staying loyal to her Clan by staying close to Ashfur to pass information along to the Rebels at the cost of her reputation. Seeing how she was treated by her clanmates and even the Rebels doubting her was heartbreaking, but she remained kind despite that. (like you pointed out she had many, many opportunities to lose faith in others and become hard hearted and she just doesn't). (( Shadowsight ramble ahead )) Shadowsight always hit a tender spot for me. Having recently finished the fifth book in TBC how he gets demoted back to being treated as an apprentice and not allowed to have access to the herb store when he used to be able to operate completely independently of his mentor was awful. Not to mention how his OWN clanmates turn on him. Yes he was ambitious, but what young cat (especially a protagonist) in the books isn't? Not only that, he showed great promise at an extremely young age with his seizure visions. At the end of the day what he wanted most was to help heal his clanmates, and when the Clans were entering a disturbing era of silence from StarClan, he just wanted to help bridge the gap and bring StarClan's voice and wisdom back. Ashfur took advantage of a young, inexperienced cat that yes was ambitious, but good-hearted and well intentioned. The fact that he didn't and never can have a connection to StarClan feels so odd to me. I know they explain that it was because of his connection to Asfur but that seemed like a bit of a silly reason to me, because why would Ashfur take to a kit born in a twoleg place far away from the Clans? idk, the part where Shadowsight will never connect with StarClan despite him fighting so hard to restore the Clan's connection to them seemed like more of a punishment for no reason to me. I could be wrong though.
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Post by asrise on Jul 31, 2024 8:00:43 GMT -5
I agree that that Shadowsight being treated the way his is by the fandom has always confused me, but I think that's just a natural reaction to the books. The authors purposely made everyone treat him badly for no real reason, even against their normal characterization. It all seems manufactured to make the reader feel bad for him, which also got on my nerves. There are also real reasons why a character would be mad at him, but these are never expanded on because that would make him look worse.
In reality, I think it could be argued Shadowsight made some very stupid, attention seeking mistakes that resulted in the deaths of multiple cats, and he should have the rewards he was given for those mistakes stripped away. Mothwing's initial argument against him was probably correct. But it's written in such a way that we are supposed to be mad at her for pointing this out.
I never agreed with the 'sad boi' label that a lot of people have put on him, and he is more complicated than that, but I also think that the books came off as trying to artificially remove that complexity from the reader's mind for fear that they might have a mind to disagree with the actions of a protagonist. And they use existing characters for this, further twisting them in the process.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jul 31, 2024 16:11:58 GMT -5
I agree that that Shadowsight being treated the way his is by the fandom has always confused me, but I think that's just a natural reaction to the books. The authors purposely made everyone treat him badly for no real reason, even against their normal characterization. It all seems manufactured to make the reader feel bad for him, which also got on my nerves. There are also real reasons why a character would be mad at him, but these are never expanded on because that would make him look worse. In reality, I think it could be argued Shadowsight made some very stupid, attention seeking mistakes that resulted in the deaths of multiple cats, and he should have the rewards he was given for those mistakes stripped away. Mothwing's initial argument against him was probably correct. But it's written in such a way that we are supposed to be mad at her for pointing this out. I never agreed with the 'sad boi' label that a lot of people have put on him, and he is more complicated than that, but I also think that the books came off as trying to artificially remove that complexity from the reader's mind for fear that they might have a mind to disagree with the actions of a protagonist. And they use existing characters for this, further twisting them in the process. Mothwing and Lionblaze both expand on their reasons a lot, and I think both are portrayed very sympathetically in TBC despite being hard on Shadowsight. If the idea was just to make people feel bad for Shadowsight, then their reasons would be less justifiable, but in fact both are given very reasonable motivations. Mothwing especially we see surprise Shadowsight when she goes out of her way to help him after he had thought she'd be a purely adversarial cat, and so we see that it's not like she's just ragging on him just because. I don't think Lionblaze was twisted to begin with, rather this is a return to form for Lionblaze after having been spinning his wheels characterization wise for a long time. And for Mothwing, my hot take here is that her personality in TBC and since then in ASC has been the most interesting she's been in a long time. She's not cruel, but she's strict and has a strong work ethic and dedication to doing things exactly right. Which, given her own history, makes complete sense.
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Post by asrise on Jul 31, 2024 17:14:02 GMT -5
I agree that that Shadowsight being treated the way his is by the fandom has always confused me, but I think that's just a natural reaction to the books. The authors purposely made everyone treat him badly for no real reason, even against their normal characterization. It all seems manufactured to make the reader feel bad for him, which also got on my nerves. There are also real reasons why a character would be mad at him, but these are never expanded on because that would make him look worse. In reality, I think it could be argued Shadowsight made some very stupid, attention seeking mistakes that resulted in the deaths of multiple cats, and he should have the rewards he was given for those mistakes stripped away. Mothwing's initial argument against him was probably correct. But it's written in such a way that we are supposed to be mad at her for pointing this out. I never agreed with the 'sad boi' label that a lot of people have put on him, and he is more complicated than that, but I also think that the books came off as trying to artificially remove that complexity from the reader's mind for fear that they might have a mind to disagree with the actions of a protagonist. And they use existing characters for this, further twisting them in the process. Mothwing and Lionblaze both expand on their reasons a lot, and I think both are portrayed very sympathetically in TBC despite being hard on Shadowsight. If the idea was just to make people feel bad for Shadowsight, then their reasons would be less justifiable, but in fact both are given very reasonable motivations. Mothwing especially we see surprise Shadowsight when she goes out of her way to help him after he had thought she'd be a purely adversarial cat, and so we see that it's not like she's just ragging on him just because. I don't think Lionblaze was twisted to begin with, rather this is a return to form for Lionblaze after having been spinning his wheels characterization wise for a long time. And for Mothwing, my hot take here is that her personality in TBC and since then in ASC has been the most interesting she's been in a long time. She's not cruel, but she's strict and has a strong work ethic and dedication to doing things exactly right. Which, given her own history, makes complete sense. Again, I do think that both Mothwing and Lionblaze have their reasons, and I do actually agree with them. I think that Mothwing's present personality specifically is a natural evolution of her character. But I notice that a lot of people do regard her as overly cruel in TBC, and I would disagree that they are portrayed sympathetically at all. Their actions are expanded on to the point where they seem like they are going too far, like Mothwing being ruder than is necessary and being made to seem petty. It seems like it's being played up, and it does have an effect on the fandom perception of these characters (as far as I can tell, at least).
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