randomfandomfan
hello i'm just a 28y multifandom fan from finland who likes to request or read fanfics
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Post by randomfandomfan on Jun 17, 2024 13:40:22 GMT -5
am i the only one who thinks the events in it could have been developed more slowly giving everything time to grow in said arc character etc wise?
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Post by Jaysnow on Jun 17, 2024 16:42:09 GMT -5
Seriously though I wish it lasted for much longer. The first two arcs were like 2 in-universe years each, this was hardly months How does the passage of time affect the quality of the series' events?
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Heterosexual
Spinestar
Got The Ashfur Tattoo!
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Post by Spinestar on Jun 17, 2024 18:34:58 GMT -5
Seriously though I wish it lasted for much longer. The first two arcs were like 2 in-universe years each, this was hardly months How does the passage of time affect the quality of the series' events?ย lol mb. โSlowlyโ and โTBCโ made me think of in-universe time duration
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randomfandomfan
hello i'm just a 28y multifandom fan from finland who likes to request or read fanfics
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Post by randomfandomfan on Jun 18, 2024 2:20:04 GMT -5
why did almost every thunderclan cat including squirrelflight somehow ceased to remember anything about ashfur and the latterโs antics that would have helped them to deduce who was possessing bramblestarโs body quicker before said possessorโs short lived reign went too far?
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Post by seantheskyhunter on Jun 18, 2024 10:43:38 GMT -5
Pretty mid arc imo
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Post by iceheart on Jun 23, 2024 4:24:33 GMT -5
TBC is arguably the worst arc in all of Warriors. It's a massive middle finger to all the lore created and each protagonist is about as interesting as wet cardboard. Bristlefrost, Rootspring, and Shadowsight have absolutely no defining personality traits. They only exist to move the plot along. There's no sustance to their characters. Root/Bristle is the worst Warriors couple, and all Shadowsight is to the narrative is a punching bag. He has no character arc and he doesn't do anything to save the mess that he's caused. He digs himself a deeper hole and it's frustrating. Why am I supposed to root for a character who ends up doing more terrible things as the arc goes on? Books 2 and 4 are absolutely useless, and I'd argue even Book 5 is too. The only books where things end up happening is 1, 3, and 6. There's the same cycle - Bramblestar is an imposter, emergency Clan meeting, should we kill Ashfur? Characters are assassinated for the sole sake of making others look good. Not to mention the entire premise is absolute garbage. Ashfur, a dead character from so long ago, takes possesion of Bramblestar's body to get back with Squirrelflight (when he says in POT that she is his enemy, not Bramblestar), so he possesses Bramblestar's body without any clear plan in mind. What was he going to do? Where did he get all his powers? It's a terrible arc with numerous plot holes, no explanations, and completely and utterly bland characters.
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Post by deerspirit on Jun 23, 2024 6:22:11 GMT -5
I think the major problem with this arc is that it had the wrong povโs. Instead of Shadowsight, Rootspring, and Bristlefrost it should have been Bramblestar, Squirrelflight, and Ashfur since they were the main focus anyway.
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#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Jun 25, 2024 18:15:23 GMT -5
TBC is a below average Warriors arc for reasons already said.
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Post by Birdskip on Jun 27, 2024 0:06:35 GMT -5
That's it, I cannot keep it in my brain anymore. Some replies in this thread have stuck in my brain so long that I need to do a surprisingly passionate defense of The Broken Code. To show I do not believe the arc to be perfect, I will also state my issues with it. This is all my opinion on what I took away from reading the text.
Addressing bias I have a fanfic that features super old Dark Forest cats possessing present cats, long after their names have been forgotten. I also love when characters make mistakes or bad choices based on their flaws, or... ANY choice that is important to the plot. I love lasting consequences for characters. I also have thought about Warrior Cats for too long and am one of those pessimistic adult fans that feel that the books are not very high quality in the first place.
Is TBC a below average Warriors arc? Without defining the average, I can only disagree based on my own impression of "the average." In my opinion, the average Warriors arc is not very good. I did not find the Entire End Product of TNP, Po3, OotS, or AVoS very enjoyable and even my favourite arc DotC has many shortcomings. While yes, TBC is not perfect, it has a far more consistent story and clear vision than any of the arcs I have listed thus far, so it is a more impactful and cohesive story than 5/8 currently existing arcs, making it above average for me. In TNP, it could be said that books 4-6 are slow and not as individual as 1-3. In Po3, a fan favourite arc, the only books relevant to the climax of the arc are books 5-6 and Sol is only present starting with book 4. In OotS, every new exciting plot point feels like padding. The separation of StarClan, the death of Flametail, Jayfeather as an accused murderer, going back to the Tribe again, beavers, the fourth cat, the fiery reed sign thing... even Ivypool as a spy and the powers of the Three feel underutilized. In DotC and AVoS, fans tend only to care about books 1-3 before the second half begins to feel bloated. So why is TBC special for having a few books feel irrelevant? At least it feels like it has direction throughout the entire arc.
Premise "The premise is absolute garbage" is a phrase I disagree with (I feel "absolute" implies no redeeming qualities, but there is plenty to say on TBC's premise alone). An old evil, one that was thought to be dealt with forever ago, was not entirely resolved for all parties. An old evil transcends generations to return and affect the present, when most cats were not even born/present at the time. This loose end was left hanging, left unresolved for the most dangerous party involved. With Bristle/Root/Shadow as protagonists, we see how this ThunderClan-centric issue has endangered the entire lake with 2/3 protags being from outside ThunderClan. With young protagonists, we feel the difference in time between Ashfur and the present cats. With Bristlefrost as a protagonist, we see how lives that were supposed to carry normal unrelated issues have become destroyed by this old issue. With protagonists that are not Bramble/Squirrel/Ash, we see the entire impact of the issue and we have these supporting characters/antagonists as some of the strongest additions to the cast. ThunderClan is torn apart. Cats are not only exiled or killed, but many more question their loyalty to such a broken home. Where loyalty was once unquestionable, now even Thornclaw and Graystripe find themselves wondering what exactly the point is. It takes such a massive problem to reach a height like this. Splitting families up leads to disconnection between Flamepaw and his mother, which becomes important in the following arc. This arc has lasting effects that loom over the Clans. This arc ends with the reader wondering how good StarClan really is. Even the protagonist thinks StarClan is being harsh, telling me that even the authors are uncertain of StarClan's infallibility (I might be optimistic here). That is cool. I like that. StarClan allowing the Clans to propose a new code works with how such terrible events for so long (I'm thinking back in AVoS too) have changed the Clans.
Shortcomings TBC has many shortcomings that I completely agree with. A barely developed side cast, some character motivations/feelings feel forced or underdeveloped, Rootspring is kinda super boring, and it relies heavily on characters from previous arcs and a thorough understanding of them for the premise to work or many characters to be understood (This would be the Very Worst arc to start the series with). I feel that it can be slow or annoyingly repetitive in its points, but I also appreciate that after DotC and AVoS, the arc completely sticks with the same villain throughout. It feels very ThunderClan centric, and relying on Squirrel/Bramble/Ash feels fanservicey. It also feels very complicated, sometimes even contrived or overly detailed. Some points could easily have been skipped in return for more compelling side characters. All of book 4 was saying "is it worth hoping for Bramblestar's return or should we just move on and kill the Impostor already?" The entire arc hinges on brand new, never-before-seen lore about the afterlife and the Place of No Stars and StarClan. Shadowsight eating deathberries to half-die feels very weird and even insensitive. Shadowsight being struck by lightning was also A Lot, Perhaps Too Much. The Dark Forest barrier being weakened by hope is also super cheesy for how dark and edgy this arc is. Most arcs also have the idea of "each book contains an adventure in a longer plot!" while TBC does not have that at all. In TBC, each book is part of one larger adventure but cannot be considered as each containing a complete adventure or lone premise that is strong enough to carry a book. It can feel very slow as it focuses solely on the development of a singular complicated plot and rarely reserves any time to developing the side cast after book 1. Book 4 feels like it asks a question and then considers every possible answer but not actually progressing that until the very end. It also feels like a strange successor to AVoS. Sure, some cats mention that rising up against the leader is bad because Darktail, and one of the protagonists is SkyClan, and ghosts were established. But it also does not really feel like the series benefits from following up on AVoS. If WindClan/RiverClan took in a former member of the Sisters (Tree), then Rootspring could still exist in a Clan outside of Shadow/Bristle. Having specifically SkyClan being here could have been more interesting if developed more thoroughly ("A New Clan that inherited the others' problems!" or "The Clan that has trained kittypets and never had a change of leadership!" or something else more specific to SkyClan that feels developed and impactful. Maybe Clans point out that SkyClan's training of kittypets could be considered against the code and therefore the reason StarClan is missing). I also don't like the titles of books 3-4. This is a nitpick (and I don't like a lot of titles in the series) but Veil of Shadows and Darkness Within are so vague. I feel like "Codebreakers" and "The Dark Prisoner" respectively are much more specific titles that refer to this arc in particular and the events of their books.
It's not that bad, actually One of the points brought up in this thread is that none of the main protagonist characters have any thread of personality. I heavily disagree with this, and find it to be a large exaggeration of the text. I think they have more defined personality and motivations and impacts on the plot than many protagonists of other arcs. (I find them each more interesting than TNP Storm/Feather, OotS Lion/Flame, DotC Thunder, AVoS Alder) Each protagonist provides a unique look into the main conflict with intriguing perspectives.
Rootspring Rootspring, imo, is the most boring of the protagonists, but only because "character who is judged for being weird/his parents/his roots" has been done in TPB and TNP and does not feel new or interesting when Rootspring does it. However, he still has traits, more than zero. Rootspring has the unique ability that allows the real conflict to be revealed to the readers (seeing Bramblestar's ghost), and a connection to the solution (relation to the Sisters). Being embarrassed of being related to Tree changes when Tree is able to help him learn and hone his skills, turning a shameful point for him into a unique strength that makes him important to the plot. Unlike Bristlefrost, he does not rely so much on the code, as he does nothing to hide his crush on the ThunderClan warrior. While his character could have been more thoroughly developed, and his time as a medicine cat is not really looked at in the slightest, Rootspring still has discernable traits. It is Rootspring who believes in the redemption of some Dark Forest cats, and Rootspring who ends up convincing StarClan to allow code changes.
Shadowsight When everyone's connections to StarClan had stopped, Shadowsight is made to believe he is the Clans' sole connection. He follows these words because he has NO REASON to doubt them. He has no reason to believe that his connection is not with StarClan. He does his duty as a medicine cat and listens to the calls upon him from what he believes to be StarClan, especially in a time where they are absent. Shadowsight was manipulated. He did not cause this mess, Ashfur did. Shadowsight did not intentionally try to harm the Clans and face no consequences, he was a victim of manipulation by a cruel spirit that used him. Shadowsight is vulnerable. Many of his Clanmates feel they aren't allowed to criticize him because he is Tigerstar II's son, so their dislike of him comes across as ignoring or avoiding him. Shadowsight is very isolated. He is a perfect cat for Ashfur to use and manipulate. In a world where hardly anyone believes in or empathizes with him, instead they blame him, Shadowsight ends up finding that the only cat who believes in him is the villain. Ashfur is not kind to him, but Ashfur still allowed Shadowsight to feel important to somebody, anybody. Having a thread of sympathetic ties to Ashfur does not make Shadowsight a villain. Rather, it creates a dynamic where one of our protagonists feels conflicted about the villain. It creates personal stakes. It is much more interesting than any other protagonist's impressions of any villain. Shadowsight makes a choice that allows Ashfur to live, but Shadowsight also believed that killing Ashfur would mean the real Bramblestar would never be released from his grasp. Ashfur proved his power to Shadowsight, and Shadowsight was made his sole caretaker. Squirrelflight was going to free him, too, wasn't she? Shadowsight is not the villain here, he was put in a situation where only he was to interact with a villain he had a complicated view of. I love when characters make mistakes or hard choices. It feels much more compelling for a character to face hard choices and pick the less popular one. It is much more interesting as an action from a protagonist than Firestar Who Always Does The Right Thing, or Gray Wing Who Barely Does Anything. In the end, Shadowsight feels shame that he somehow misses Ashfur, even after everything Ashfur did to him and the Clans. This feels to me like an interesting new position for a protagonist to be in. Shadowsight misses the one cat who seemed to be on his side during such an impactful time in his life. It is common for many abuse victims to struggle with feelings of missing their abuser. Shadowsight is the arc's punching bag, but he still makes choices and works to help the Clans after realizing his mistakes (he tries to rescue Bramblestar, he tries to keep Bramblestar's body okay, he volunteers to go into the Dark Forest to atone). By the end, when Ashfur tries to manipulate Shadowsight again that Bristlefrost must die, Shadowsight refuses. He no longer believes Ashfur and goes against him. He has changed.
Bristlefrost Ivypool's daughter being a secret spy is a fun callback, but I feel they put a fun spin on it that makes Bristlefrost really interesting. Bristlefrost is rejected by her crush. Already, in book 1, the way Bristlefrost recovers and changes her plan to become the best warrior she can be makes her a foil to Ashfur. Already, in book 1, we see how Bristlefrost is stronger than Ashfur was when facing romantic rejection. Bristlefrost was not only able to move on, she was able to become known for her passion to uphold the code. She is also used by Ashfur as a spy on her own Clanmates. Bristlefrost thinks she is only helping her Clan be better, but later learns that she was being used to sow unease and distrust among her Clanmates. Becoming part of Spotfur's rebellion changes her role, so instead she is a spy on the Impostor (for her Clanmates) pretending to be a spy on her Clanmates (for the Impostor). This is a fun spin that makes her similar to Ivypool, who played a similar role among the Dark Forest and The Three. But then they spin it again. Squirrelflight asks Bristlefrost to protect the Impostor to save Bramblestar's body. This adds a conflicting side to Bristlefrost's spying mission, who now cannot let the battle harm Bramblestar's body too badly. Of course, I think Bristlefrost did not have to be with Rootspring romantically. I think it's fun that the code-abiding protagonist gets feelings that conflict with that, making Bristlefrost more sympathetic to cats who break the code, understanding better why cats would do so. Then again, I think her feelings for Rootspring could have been better developed. I did not think "guy with one-sided crush after she saved him one time then embarrasses her by bringing her fresh-kill as thanks" would actually end up as a full relationship. I think it was Sunnyfall on youtube who said she would have liked to see Bristlefrost be able to teach Rootspring that sometimes crushes just aren't reciprocated. But, then again, giving Bristlefrost a romantic partner gives her more to lose. I also think there's a strange disconnect between Bristlefrost and her Clanmates. We're supposed to believe that Bristlefrost feels NOTHING at the violent death of her former crush? What? Even if they weren't romantically interested, they were still friends, weren't they? And Bristlefrost's friendship with Spotfur feels one-sided. I feel like if Bristlefrost had stronger connections and friendships with her Clanmates, she would have even more to lose and her sacrifice would be even more impactful. Now, her sacrifice... Bristlefrost's sacrifice is a big deal. Where she once dove into water to save Rootspring, she now dives into the water to save all the Clans. She loses not only her life, but her afterlife. If she had simply gone to StarClan or became a ghost, there would still be some promise of seeing Rootspring again. They've kinda made death mean less in this world where they know for a fact they will see each other again. This grief for Rootspring aligns much more with grief in real life, where it feels much more like a permanent change rather than a "meet you again later". Bristlefrost loses everything with this sacrifice, but she knows it to be the right thing to do. It puts grief upon the living, but also rescues the living and both afterlives. It rescues the state of normal that has been missing for so long, that many have suffered in the absence of for most of her life.
Conclusion I like TBC and feel that some of the arguments in this thread do not accurately portray some of the characters discussed. I do think the characters have interest to them and that the premise has potential. The arc is slow and far from perfect, but I still believe the arc to be far ahead of many other arcs in the series.
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Post by iceheart on Jun 27, 2024 2:42:18 GMT -5
That's it, I cannot keep it in my brain anymore. Some replies in this thread have stuck in my brain so long that I need to do a surprisingly passionate defense of The Broken Code. To show I do not believe the arc to be perfect, I will also state my issues with it. This is all my opinion on what I took away from reading the text. Addressing biasI have a fanfic that features super old Dark Forest cats possessing present cats, long after their names have been forgotten. I also love when characters make mistakes or bad choices based on their flaws, or... ANY choice that is important to the plot. I love lasting consequences for characters. I also have thought about Warrior Cats for too long and am one of those pessimistic adult fans that feel that the books are not very high quality in the first place. Is TBC a below average Warriors arc?Without defining the average, I can only disagree based on my own impression of "the average." In my opinion, the average Warriors arc is not very good. I did not find the Entire End Product of TNP, Po3, OotS, or AVoS very enjoyable and even my favourite arc DotC has many shortcomings. While yes, TBC is not perfect, it has a far more consistent story and clear vision than any of the arcs I have listed thus far, so it is a more impactful and cohesive story than 5/8 currently existing arcs, making it above average for me. In TNP, it could be said that books 4-6 are slow and not as individual as 1-3. In Po3, a fan favourite arc, the only books relevant to the climax of the arc are books 5-6 and Sol is only present starting with book 4. In OotS, every new exciting plot point feels like padding. The separation of StarClan, the death of Flametail, Jayfeather as an accused murderer, going back to the Tribe again, beavers, the fourth cat, the fiery reed sign thing... even Ivypool as a spy and the powers of the Three feel underutilized. In DotC and AVoS, fans tend only to care about books 1-3 before the second half begins to feel bloated. So why is TBC special for having a few books feel irrelevant? At least it feels like it has direction throughout the entire arc. Premise"The premise is absolute garbage" is a phrase I disagree with (I feel "absolute" implies no redeeming qualities, but there is plenty to say on TBC's premise alone). An old evil, one that was thought to be dealt with forever ago, was not entirely resolved for all parties. An old evil transcends generations to return and affect the present, when most cats were not even born/present at the time. This loose end was left hanging, left unresolved for the most dangerous party involved. With Bristle/Root/Shadow as protagonists, we see how this ThunderClan-centric issue has endangered the entire lake with 2/3 protags being from outside ThunderClan. With young protagonists, we feel the difference in time between Ashfur and the present cats. With Bristlefrost as a protagonist, we see how lives that were supposed to carry normal unrelated issues have become destroyed by this old issue. With protagonists that are not Bramble/Squirrel/Ash, we see the entire impact of the issue and we have these supporting characters/antagonists as some of the strongest additions to the cast. ThunderClan is torn apart. Cats are not only exiled or killed, but many more question their loyalty to such a broken home. Where loyalty was once unquestionable, now even Thornclaw and Graystripe find themselves wondering what exactly the point is. It takes such a massive problem to reach a height like this. Splitting families up leads to disconnection between Flamepaw and his mother, which becomes important in the following arc. This arc has lasting effects that loom over the Clans. This arc ends with the reader wondering how good StarClan really is. Even the protagonist thinks StarClan is being harsh, telling me that even the authors are uncertain of StarClan's infallibility (I might be optimistic here). That is cool. I like that. StarClan allowing the Clans to propose a new code works with how such terrible events for so long (I'm thinking back in AVoS too) have changed the Clans. ShortcomingsTBC has many shortcomings that I completely agree with. A barely developed side cast, some character motivations/feelings feel forced or underdeveloped, Rootspring is kinda super boring, and it relies heavily on characters from previous arcs and a thorough understanding of them for the premise to work or many characters to be understood (This would be the Very Worst arc to start the series with). I feel that it can be slow or annoyingly repetitive in its points, but I also appreciate that after DotC and AVoS, the arc completely sticks with the same villain throughout. It feels very ThunderClan centric, and relying on Squirrel/Bramble/Ash feels fanservicey. It also feels very complicated, sometimes even contrived or overly detailed. Some points could easily have been skipped in return for more compelling side characters. All of book 4 was saying "is it worth hoping for Bramblestar's return or should we just move on and kill the Impostor already?" The entire arc hinges on brand new, never-before-seen lore about the afterlife and the Place of No Stars and StarClan. Shadowsight eating deathberries to half-die feels very weird and even insensitive. Shadowsight being struck by lightning was also A Lot, Perhaps Too Much. The Dark Forest barrier being weakened by hope is also super cheesy for how dark and edgy this arc is. Most arcs also have the idea of "each book contains an adventure in a longer plot!" while TBC does not have that at all. In TBC, each book is part of one larger adventure but cannot be considered as each containing a complete adventure or lone premise that is strong enough to carry a book. It can feel very slow as it focuses solely on the development of a singular complicated plot and rarely reserves any time to developing the side cast after book 1. Book 4 feels like it asks a question and then considers every possible answer but not actually progressing that until the very end. It also feels like a strange successor to AVoS. Sure, some cats mention that rising up against the leader is bad because Darktail, and one of the protagonists is SkyClan, and ghosts were established. But it also does not really feel like the series benefits from following up on AVoS. If WindClan/RiverClan took in a former member of the Sisters (Tree), then Rootspring could still exist in a Clan outside of Shadow/Bristle. Having specifically SkyClan being here could have been more interesting if developed more thoroughly ("A New Clan that inherited the others' problems!" or "The Clan that has trained kittypets and never had a change of leadership!" or something else more specific to SkyClan that feels developed and impactful. Maybe Clans point out that SkyClan's training of kittypets could be considered against the code and therefore the reason StarClan is missing). I also don't like the titles of books 3-4. This is a nitpick (and I don't like a lot of titles in the series) but Veil of Shadows and Darkness Within are so vague. I feel like "Codebreakers" and "The Dark Prisoner" respectively are much more specific titles that refer to this arc in particular and the events of their books. It's not that bad, actuallyOne of the points brought up in this thread is that none of the main protagonist characters have any thread of personality. I heavily disagree with this, and find it to be a large exaggeration of the text. I think they have more defined personality and motivations and impacts on the plot than many protagonists of other arcs. (I find them each more interesting than TNP Storm/Feather, OotS Lion/Flame, DotC Thunder, AVoS Alder) Each protagonist provides a unique look into the main conflict with intriguing perspectives. RootspringRootspring, imo, is the most boring of the protagonists, but only because "character who is judged for being weird/his parents/his roots" has been done in TPB and TNP and does not feel new or interesting when Rootspring does it. However, he still has traits, more than zero. Rootspring has the unique ability that allows the real conflict to be revealed to the readers (seeing Bramblestar's ghost), and a connection to the solution (relation to the Sisters). Being embarrassed of being related to Tree changes when Tree is able to help him learn and hone his skills, turning a shameful point for him into a unique strength that makes him important to the plot. Unlike Bristlefrost, he does not rely so much on the code, as he does nothing to hide his crush on the ThunderClan warrior. While his character could have been more thoroughly developed, and his time as a medicine cat is not really looked at in the slightest, Rootspring still has discernable traits. It is Rootspring who believes in the redemption of some Dark Forest cats, and Rootspring who ends up convincing StarClan to allow code changes. ShadowsightWhen everyone's connections to StarClan had stopped, Shadowsight is made to believe he is the Clans' sole connection. He follows these words because he has NO REASON to doubt them. He has no reason to believe that his connection is not with StarClan. He does his duty as a medicine cat and listens to the calls upon him from what he believes to be StarClan, especially in a time where they are absent. Shadowsight was manipulated. He did not cause this mess, Ashfur did. Shadowsight did not intentionally try to harm the Clans and face no consequences, he was a victim of manipulation by a cruel spirit that used him. Shadowsight is vulnerable. Many of his Clanmates feel they aren't allowed to criticize him because he is Tigerstar II's son, so their dislike of him comes across as ignoring or avoiding him. Shadowsight is very isolated. He is a perfect cat for Ashfur to use and manipulate. In a world where hardly anyone believes in or empathizes with him, instead they blame him, Shadowsight ends up finding that the only cat who believes in him is the villain. Ashfur is not kind to him, but Ashfur still allowed Shadowsight to feel important to somebody, anybody. Having a thread of sympathetic ties to Ashfur does not make Shadowsight a villain. Rather, it creates a dynamic where one of our protagonists feels conflicted about the villain. It creates personal stakes. It is much more interesting than any other protagonist's impressions of any villain. Shadowsight makes a choice that allows Ashfur to live, but Shadowsight also believed that killing Ashfur would mean the real Bramblestar would never be released from his grasp. Ashfur proved his power to Shadowsight, and Shadowsight was made his sole caretaker. Squirrelflight was going to free him, too, wasn't she? Shadowsight is not the villain here, he was put in a situation where only he was to interact with a villain he had a complicated view of. I love when characters make mistakes or hard choices. It feels much more compelling for a character to face hard choices and pick the less popular one. It is much more interesting as an action from a protagonist than Firestar Who Always Does The Right Thing, or Gray Wing Who Barely Does Anything. In the end, Shadowsight feels shame that he somehow misses Ashfur, even after everything Ashfur did to him and the Clans. This feels to me like an interesting new position for a protagonist to be in. Shadowsight misses the one cat who seemed to be on his side during such an impactful time in his life. It is common for many abuse victims to struggle with feelings of missing their abuser. Shadowsight is the arc's punching bag, but he still makes choices and works to help the Clans after realizing his mistakes (he tries to rescue Bramblestar, he tries to keep Bramblestar's body okay, he volunteers to go into the Dark Forest to atone). By the end, when Ashfur tries to manipulate Shadowsight again that Bristlefrost must die, Shadowsight refuses. He no longer believes Ashfur and goes against him. He has changed. BristlefrostIvypool's daughter being a secret spy is a fun callback, but I feel they put a fun spin on it that makes Bristlefrost really interesting. Bristlefrost is rejected by her crush. Already, in book 1, the way Bristlefrost recovers and changes her plan to become the best warrior she can be makes her a foil to Ashfur. Already, in book 1, we see how Bristlefrost is stronger than Ashfur was when facing romantic rejection. Bristlefrost was not only able to move on, she was able to become known for her passion to uphold the code. She is also used by Ashfur as a spy on her own Clanmates. Bristlefrost thinks she is only helping her Clan be better, but later learns that she was being used to sow unease and distrust among her Clanmates. Becoming part of Spotfur's rebellion changes her role, so instead she is a spy on the Impostor (for her Clanmates) pretending to be a spy on her Clanmates (for the Impostor). This is a fun spin that makes her similar to Ivypool, who played a similar role among the Dark Forest and The Three. But then they spin it again. Squirrelflight asks Bristlefrost to protect the Impostor to save Bramblestar's body. This adds a conflicting side to Bristlefrost's spying mission, who now cannot let the battle harm Bramblestar's body too badly. Of course, I think Bristlefrost did not have to be with Rootspring romantically. I think it's fun that the code-abiding protagonist gets feelings that conflict with that, making Bristlefrost more sympathetic to cats who break the code, understanding better why cats would do so. Then again, I think her feelings for Rootspring could have been better developed. I did not think "guy with one-sided crush after she saved him one time then embarrasses her by bringing her fresh-kill as thanks" would actually end up as a full relationship. I think it was Sunnyfall on youtube who said she would have liked to see Bristlefrost be able to teach Rootspring that sometimes crushes just aren't reciprocated. But, then again, giving Bristlefrost a romantic partner gives her more to lose. I also think there's a strange disconnect between Bristlefrost and her Clanmates. We're supposed to believe that Bristlefrost feels NOTHING at the violent death of her former crush? What? Even if they weren't romantically interested, they were still friends, weren't they? And Bristlefrost's friendship with Spotfur feels one-sided. I feel like if Bristlefrost had stronger connections and friendships with her Clanmates, she would have even more to lose and her sacrifice would be even more impactful. Now, her sacrifice... Bristlefrost's sacrifice is a big deal. Where she once dove into water to save Rootspring, she now dives into the water to save all the Clans. She loses not only her life, but her afterlife. If she had simply gone to StarClan or became a ghost, there would still be some promise of seeing Rootspring again. They've kinda made death mean less in this world where they know for a fact they will see each other again. This grief for Rootspring aligns much more with grief in real life, where it feels much more like a permanent change rather than a "meet you again later". Bristlefrost loses everything with this sacrifice, but she knows it to be the right thing to do. It puts grief upon the living, but also rescues the living and both afterlives. It rescues the state of normal that has been missing for so long, that many have suffered in the absence of for most of her life. ConclusionI like TBC and feel that some of the arguments in this thread do not accurately portray some of the characters discussed. I do think the characters have interest to them and that the premise has potential. The arc is slow and far from perfect, but I still believe the arc to be far ahead of many other arcs in the series. I firmly stand by all my statements that you have stated here. I do not feel like I am exaggerating because it is my personal opinion, and this is what I think. You state: "I feel "absolute" implies no redeeming qualities, but there is plenty to say on TBC's premise alone", but yeah, to me, it has absolutely no redeeming qualities. I still believe the premise is genuine garbage - I'm fine with the afterlife, but when you bring possession, mind control, ghosts, controlling spirits, then it's absolutely insane. If I wanted to read a supernatural novel, then I'd pick that up. Mad props to you for finding something to like in this arc, but I disagree with you on many aspects (and I'm only going to pick at the paragraphs you've put underneath shortcomings, because I've said many times before why I dislike this arc). Starting with these: Rootspring's got zero personality traits. What you've said all ties into what I have said - these characters only exist to move the plot forward. That's Rootspring in a nutshell. He's got the ability to see the ghost, but here's where the plot holes come in: why is Rootspring the only one who can see ghost Bramblestar? Why can't Tree? What makes Rootspring so different from Tree that he can't see Bramblestar's ghost? That's the point. Tree can't see Bramblestar because then there's no reason for Rootspring to exist. Rootspring bounces all around the plot because his only reason of existing is so he can see Bramblestar's ghost, oh, and that crush on Bristlefrost he has which is the worst part of TBC. Rootspring isn't the only cat who says that the DF cats can be redeemed - so does Bristlefrost, and there are also StarClan warriors who believe the same. Rootspring is the flattest of all the TBC protoganists and has no reason for existing other than seeing Bramblestar's ghost. At the end of the day, Bristlefrost didn't even sacrifice herself for him. She sacrificed herself for Shadowsight. Shadowsight's next. Here's a comment on Reddit that reminded me a lot about Shadowsight. Someone on r/writing asked "what's too depressing?" when it comes to stories, and this was one of the replies. "It's too depressing when there stops being a point to it all. If it feels like you're dogpiling on a character as the universe's sickest joke, with no end in sight, well beyond where they've lost all hope and there's nothing learned or gained from the scenario, then you're just beating a dead horse and have gone way too far. But as long as there's still a will to overcome, or die trying, then even in failure, there's a lesson to be had and the story has purpose. Bad things, and bad endings are perfectly fine to exist. But if the story doesn't feel like it's moving anywhere in doing so, then that's just pure sadism." This is Shadowsight's story in a nutshell. The editors dogpile tragic event after event after event on him and everyone else is left cleaning up the mess. Shadowsight doesn't have an arc where he tries and fixes what he's done. Everyone else is left to reassure him that it's not his fault and pick up the pieces. Ashfur was never on his side, and Shadowsight was well aware of that. Ashfur ruined his life. Manipulation works when you have a close bond with the person that is manipulating you. There are several books that do this right - mostly dark romance novels. This is not one of them. It's not like Shadowsight ever tried to see the good in Ashfur. Maybe it would make sense if Shadowsight was like "oh, he's not so bad, he's nice to me..." but he's not. The connection between Shadowsight and Ashfur is not developed in a way that feels genuine or believable. Shadowsight's actions are driven more by desperation and confusion that his Clan and family has abandoned him than by a meaningful bond It is overly simplistic to absolve Shadowsight of all responsibility. His actions, even under manipulation, had real and damaging consequences for the Clans. Victimhood does not exempt one from the consequences of their actions, particularly when those actions have widespread effects. Shadowsight should have done something to try and fix what he, albeit unmeaningly, caused. Yet every time he does (going to the DF more than once) he puts someone in danger. A character who keeps getting others killed or injured is not someone I want to root for. I cannot stress this enough: he should not have been one of those cats to go into the DF in the final book. He had no battle training, he was injured, and yet he only went because of stubborn pride, that ShadowClan should have someone in the mission. Shadowsight is not developed as a character who actively learns from or overcomes his challenges. He's depicted as a perpetual victim, constantly suffering without meaningful growth or resolution. This narrative choice robs his character of agency and reduces his storyline to a series of unfortunate events that happen to him, rather than choices he makes and consequences he faces. It makes no sense for Shadowsight to miss Ashfur when everything Ashfur has done was to belittle and manipulate and harm him, and Shadowsight knows that. Like I mentioned, it might have mad some sense if there were moments that Ashfur was genuinely kind to him and they developed a relationship no matter how dark and twisted their circumstances. But they never did. Shadowsight knew Ashfur was using him and manipulating him. He knew that the entire time. Seeing Bristlefrost start off as "I want to be a warrior so I can ask my crush out" is not hopeful in the slightest. She's a spy, yeah, but why her? What reason does the arc give us that Bristlefrost is the perfect spy, despite being obligatory Firekin POV? Because she's a young warrior? That makes no sense. Adding onto what you said, she has no bonds with her Clanmates, so seeing her literally say "actually, I'm not that sad that Stemleaf died because I wasn't in love with him anymore" is astonishing and, quite frankly, bordering on callous. She suffers the same thing as Rootspring (and Shadowsight) does. She has no distinguishable personality. She does not have a single personality trait to her that I can name. Neither of the three protags are well-rounded characters with their own personalities. They exist to move the story forward. I really don't think Bristlefrost's sacrifice was as emotional as people make it out to be. She was saving Shadowsight - again, another indication that Shadowsight keeps getting the cats around him killed or injured. She has no real relationship to Shadowsight at all. It would make more sense if it was Rootspring she was saving. But it's the same thing, again and again - Shadowsight's the damsel in distress that has to be saved. Plus, the disconnect between her and her Clanmates further reduces the emotional impact of her actions. Everyone was devastated when Graystripe died in that book because we knew him. He provided a legacy to every single cat who knew him. Bristlefrost... has nothing going to her except being Rootspring's short gf and Ivypool's daughter. Her sacrifice feels hollow because it lacks the personal connection and emotional buildup needed to make it impactful. Bristlefrost's character is underdeveloped, making it hard to feel the weight of her death. Without strong ties to her Clanmates or a compelling personal arc, her final act seems more like a plot device than a meaningful conclusion to her story. This, coupled with Shadowsight's constant need for rescue and lack of growth, makes their arcs feel incomplete and unsatisfying. The narrative relies too heavily on external events rather than developing the characters in a way that makes their struggles and sacrifices resonate on a deeper level. So although I appreciate other views, I still believe that the arc is one of the worst, if not, the worst that Warriors has given us. its supernatural powers that suddenly sprung up out of nowhere, coupled with a villain from previous arcs possessing a body, hanging onto dear life on TNP characters because they're the only ones who can carry a plot, with underdeveloped protags who lack personalities and arcs, is why I'm supposed to read it if I lose the bet on Frostpaw's warrior name.
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Post by Birdskip on Jun 27, 2024 8:11:00 GMT -5
That's it, I cannot keep it in my brain anymore. Some replies in this thread have stuck in my brain so long that I need to do a surprisingly passionate defense of The Broken Code. To show I do not believe the arc to be perfect, I will also state my issues with it. This is all my opinion on what I took away from reading the text. Addressing biasI have a fanfic that features super old Dark Forest cats possessing present cats, long after their names have been forgotten. I also love when characters make mistakes or bad choices based on their flaws, or... ANY choice that is important to the plot. I love lasting consequences for characters. I also have thought about Warrior Cats for too long and am one of those pessimistic adult fans that feel that the books are not very high quality in the first place. Is TBC a below average Warriors arc?Without defining the average, I can only disagree based on my own impression of "the average." In my opinion, the average Warriors arc is not very good. I did not find the Entire End Product of TNP, Po3, OotS, or AVoS very enjoyable and even my favourite arc DotC has many shortcomings. While yes, TBC is not perfect, it has a far more consistent story and clear vision than any of the arcs I have listed thus far, so it is a more impactful and cohesive story than 5/8 currently existing arcs, making it above average for me. In TNP, it could be said that books 4-6 are slow and not as individual as 1-3. In Po3, a fan favourite arc, the only books relevant to the climax of the arc are books 5-6 and Sol is only present starting with book 4. In OotS, every new exciting plot point feels like padding. The separation of StarClan, the death of Flametail, Jayfeather as an accused murderer, going back to the Tribe again, beavers, the fourth cat, the fiery reed sign thing... even Ivypool as a spy and the powers of the Three feel underutilized. In DotC and AVoS, fans tend only to care about books 1-3 before the second half begins to feel bloated. So why is TBC special for having a few books feel irrelevant? At least it feels like it has direction throughout the entire arc. Premise"The premise is absolute garbage" is a phrase I disagree with (I feel "absolute" implies no redeeming qualities, but there is plenty to say on TBC's premise alone). An old evil, one that was thought to be dealt with forever ago, was not entirely resolved for all parties. An old evil transcends generations to return and affect the present, when most cats were not even born/present at the time. This loose end was left hanging, left unresolved for the most dangerous party involved. With Bristle/Root/Shadow as protagonists, we see how this ThunderClan-centric issue has endangered the entire lake with 2/3 protags being from outside ThunderClan. With young protagonists, we feel the difference in time between Ashfur and the present cats. With Bristlefrost as a protagonist, we see how lives that were supposed to carry normal unrelated issues have become destroyed by this old issue. With protagonists that are not Bramble/Squirrel/Ash, we see the entire impact of the issue and we have these supporting characters/antagonists as some of the strongest additions to the cast. ThunderClan is torn apart. Cats are not only exiled or killed, but many more question their loyalty to such a broken home. Where loyalty was once unquestionable, now even Thornclaw and Graystripe find themselves wondering what exactly the point is. It takes such a massive problem to reach a height like this. Splitting families up leads to disconnection between Flamepaw and his mother, which becomes important in the following arc. This arc has lasting effects that loom over the Clans. This arc ends with the reader wondering how good StarClan really is. Even the protagonist thinks StarClan is being harsh, telling me that even the authors are uncertain of StarClan's infallibility (I might be optimistic here). That is cool. I like that. StarClan allowing the Clans to propose a new code works with how such terrible events for so long (I'm thinking back in AVoS too) have changed the Clans. ShortcomingsTBC has many shortcomings that I completely agree with. A barely developed side cast, some character motivations/feelings feel forced or underdeveloped, Rootspring is kinda super boring, and it relies heavily on characters from previous arcs and a thorough understanding of them for the premise to work or many characters to be understood (This would be the Very Worst arc to start the series with). I feel that it can be slow or annoyingly repetitive in its points, but I also appreciate that after DotC and AVoS, the arc completely sticks with the same villain throughout. It feels very ThunderClan centric, and relying on Squirrel/Bramble/Ash feels fanservicey. It also feels very complicated, sometimes even contrived or overly detailed. Some points could easily have been skipped in return for more compelling side characters. All of book 4 was saying "is it worth hoping for Bramblestar's return or should we just move on and kill the Impostor already?" The entire arc hinges on brand new, never-before-seen lore about the afterlife and the Place of No Stars and StarClan. Shadowsight eating deathberries to half-die feels very weird and even insensitive. Shadowsight being struck by lightning was also A Lot, Perhaps Too Much. The Dark Forest barrier being weakened by hope is also super cheesy for how dark and edgy this arc is. Most arcs also have the idea of "each book contains an adventure in a longer plot!" while TBC does not have that at all. In TBC, each book is part of one larger adventure but cannot be considered as each containing a complete adventure or lone premise that is strong enough to carry a book. It can feel very slow as it focuses solely on the development of a singular complicated plot and rarely reserves any time to developing the side cast after book 1. Book 4 feels like it asks a question and then considers every possible answer but not actually progressing that until the very end. It also feels like a strange successor to AVoS. Sure, some cats mention that rising up against the leader is bad because Darktail, and one of the protagonists is SkyClan, and ghosts were established. But it also does not really feel like the series benefits from following up on AVoS. If WindClan/RiverClan took in a former member of the Sisters (Tree), then Rootspring could still exist in a Clan outside of Shadow/Bristle. Having specifically SkyClan being here could have been more interesting if developed more thoroughly ("A New Clan that inherited the others' problems!" or "The Clan that has trained kittypets and never had a change of leadership!" or something else more specific to SkyClan that feels developed and impactful. Maybe Clans point out that SkyClan's training of kittypets could be considered against the code and therefore the reason StarClan is missing). I also don't like the titles of books 3-4. This is a nitpick (and I don't like a lot of titles in the series) but Veil of Shadows and Darkness Within are so vague. I feel like "Codebreakers" and "The Dark Prisoner" respectively are much more specific titles that refer to this arc in particular and the events of their books. It's not that bad, actuallyOne of the points brought up in this thread is that none of the main protagonist characters have any thread of personality. I heavily disagree with this, and find it to be a large exaggeration of the text. I think they have more defined personality and motivations and impacts on the plot than many protagonists of other arcs. (I find them each more interesting than TNP Storm/Feather, OotS Lion/Flame, DotC Thunder, AVoS Alder) Each protagonist provides a unique look into the main conflict with intriguing perspectives. RootspringRootspring, imo, is the most boring of the protagonists, but only because "character who is judged for being weird/his parents/his roots" has been done in TPB and TNP and does not feel new or interesting when Rootspring does it. However, he still has traits, more than zero. Rootspring has the unique ability that allows the real conflict to be revealed to the readers (seeing Bramblestar's ghost), and a connection to the solution (relation to the Sisters). Being embarrassed of being related to Tree changes when Tree is able to help him learn and hone his skills, turning a shameful point for him into a unique strength that makes him important to the plot. Unlike Bristlefrost, he does not rely so much on the code, as he does nothing to hide his crush on the ThunderClan warrior. While his character could have been more thoroughly developed, and his time as a medicine cat is not really looked at in the slightest, Rootspring still has discernable traits. It is Rootspring who believes in the redemption of some Dark Forest cats, and Rootspring who ends up convincing StarClan to allow code changes. ShadowsightWhen everyone's connections to StarClan had stopped, Shadowsight is made to believe he is the Clans' sole connection. He follows these words because he has NO REASON to doubt them. He has no reason to believe that his connection is not with StarClan. He does his duty as a medicine cat and listens to the calls upon him from what he believes to be StarClan, especially in a time where they are absent. Shadowsight was manipulated. He did not cause this mess, Ashfur did. Shadowsight did not intentionally try to harm the Clans and face no consequences, he was a victim of manipulation by a cruel spirit that used him. Shadowsight is vulnerable. Many of his Clanmates feel they aren't allowed to criticize him because he is Tigerstar II's son, so their dislike of him comes across as ignoring or avoiding him. Shadowsight is very isolated. He is a perfect cat for Ashfur to use and manipulate. In a world where hardly anyone believes in or empathizes with him, instead they blame him, Shadowsight ends up finding that the only cat who believes in him is the villain. Ashfur is not kind to him, but Ashfur still allowed Shadowsight to feel important to somebody, anybody. Having a thread of sympathetic ties to Ashfur does not make Shadowsight a villain. Rather, it creates a dynamic where one of our protagonists feels conflicted about the villain. It creates personal stakes. It is much more interesting than any other protagonist's impressions of any villain. Shadowsight makes a choice that allows Ashfur to live, but Shadowsight also believed that killing Ashfur would mean the real Bramblestar would never be released from his grasp. Ashfur proved his power to Shadowsight, and Shadowsight was made his sole caretaker. Squirrelflight was going to free him, too, wasn't she? Shadowsight is not the villain here, he was put in a situation where only he was to interact with a villain he had a complicated view of. I love when characters make mistakes or hard choices. It feels much more compelling for a character to face hard choices and pick the less popular one. It is much more interesting as an action from a protagonist than Firestar Who Always Does The Right Thing, or Gray Wing Who Barely Does Anything. In the end, Shadowsight feels shame that he somehow misses Ashfur, even after everything Ashfur did to him and the Clans. This feels to me like an interesting new position for a protagonist to be in. Shadowsight misses the one cat who seemed to be on his side during such an impactful time in his life. It is common for many abuse victims to struggle with feelings of missing their abuser. Shadowsight is the arc's punching bag, but he still makes choices and works to help the Clans after realizing his mistakes (he tries to rescue Bramblestar, he tries to keep Bramblestar's body okay, he volunteers to go into the Dark Forest to atone). By the end, when Ashfur tries to manipulate Shadowsight again that Bristlefrost must die, Shadowsight refuses. He no longer believes Ashfur and goes against him. He has changed. BristlefrostIvypool's daughter being a secret spy is a fun callback, but I feel they put a fun spin on it that makes Bristlefrost really interesting. Bristlefrost is rejected by her crush. Already, in book 1, the way Bristlefrost recovers and changes her plan to become the best warrior she can be makes her a foil to Ashfur. Already, in book 1, we see how Bristlefrost is stronger than Ashfur was when facing romantic rejection. Bristlefrost was not only able to move on, she was able to become known for her passion to uphold the code. She is also used by Ashfur as a spy on her own Clanmates. Bristlefrost thinks she is only helping her Clan be better, but later learns that she was being used to sow unease and distrust among her Clanmates. Becoming part of Spotfur's rebellion changes her role, so instead she is a spy on the Impostor (for her Clanmates) pretending to be a spy on her Clanmates (for the Impostor). This is a fun spin that makes her similar to Ivypool, who played a similar role among the Dark Forest and The Three. But then they spin it again. Squirrelflight asks Bristlefrost to protect the Impostor to save Bramblestar's body. This adds a conflicting side to Bristlefrost's spying mission, who now cannot let the battle harm Bramblestar's body too badly. Of course, I think Bristlefrost did not have to be with Rootspring romantically. I think it's fun that the code-abiding protagonist gets feelings that conflict with that, making Bristlefrost more sympathetic to cats who break the code, understanding better why cats would do so. Then again, I think her feelings for Rootspring could have been better developed. I did not think "guy with one-sided crush after she saved him one time then embarrasses her by bringing her fresh-kill as thanks" would actually end up as a full relationship. I think it was Sunnyfall on youtube who said she would have liked to see Bristlefrost be able to teach Rootspring that sometimes crushes just aren't reciprocated. But, then again, giving Bristlefrost a romantic partner gives her more to lose. I also think there's a strange disconnect between Bristlefrost and her Clanmates. We're supposed to believe that Bristlefrost feels NOTHING at the violent death of her former crush? What? Even if they weren't romantically interested, they were still friends, weren't they? And Bristlefrost's friendship with Spotfur feels one-sided. I feel like if Bristlefrost had stronger connections and friendships with her Clanmates, she would have even more to lose and her sacrifice would be even more impactful. Now, her sacrifice... Bristlefrost's sacrifice is a big deal. Where she once dove into water to save Rootspring, she now dives into the water to save all the Clans. She loses not only her life, but her afterlife. If she had simply gone to StarClan or became a ghost, there would still be some promise of seeing Rootspring again. They've kinda made death mean less in this world where they know for a fact they will see each other again. This grief for Rootspring aligns much more with grief in real life, where it feels much more like a permanent change rather than a "meet you again later". Bristlefrost loses everything with this sacrifice, but she knows it to be the right thing to do. It puts grief upon the living, but also rescues the living and both afterlives. It rescues the state of normal that has been missing for so long, that many have suffered in the absence of for most of her life. ConclusionI like TBC and feel that some of the arguments in this thread do not accurately portray some of the characters discussed. I do think the characters have interest to them and that the premise has potential. The arc is slow and far from perfect, but I still believe the arc to be far ahead of many other arcs in the series. I firmly stand by all my statements that you have stated here. I do not feel like I am exaggerating because it is my personal opinion, and this is what I think. You state: "I feel "absolute" implies no redeeming qualities, but there is plenty to say on TBC's premise alone", but yeah, to me, it has absolutely no redeeming qualities. I still believe the premise is genuine garbage - I'm fine with the afterlife, but when you bring possession, mind control, ghosts, controlling spirits, then it's absolutely insane. If I wanted to read a supernatural novel, then I'd pick that up. Mad props to you for finding something to like in this arc, but I disagree with you on many aspects (and I'm only going to pick at the paragraphs you've put underneath shortcomings, because I've said many times before why I dislike this arc). Starting with these: Rootspring's got zero personality traits. What you've said all ties into what I have said - these characters only exist to move the plot forward. That's Rootspring in a nutshell. He's got the ability to see the ghost, but here's where the plot holes come in: why is Rootspring the only one who can see ghost Bramblestar? Why can't Tree? What makes Rootspring so different from Tree that he can't see Bramblestar's ghost? That's the point. Tree can't see Bramblestar because then there's no reason for Rootspring to exist. Rootspring bounces all around the plot because his only reason of existing is so he can see Bramblestar's ghost, oh, and that crush on Bristlefrost he has which is the worst part of TBC. Rootspring isn't the only cat who says that the DF cats can be redeemed - so does Bristlefrost, and there are also StarClan warriors who believe the same. Rootspring is the flattest of all the TBC protoganists and has no reason for existing other than seeing Bramblestar's ghost. At the end of the day, Bristlefrost didn't even sacrifice herself for him. She sacrificed herself for Shadowsight. Shadowsight's next. Here's a comment on Reddit that reminded me a lot about Shadowsight. Someone on r/writing asked "what's too depressing?" when it comes to stories, and this was one of the replies. "It's too depressing when there stops being a point to it all. If it feels like you're dogpiling on a character as the universe's sickest joke, with no end in sight, well beyond where they've lost all hope and there's nothing learned or gained from the scenario, then you're just beating a dead horse and have gone way too far. But as long as there's still a will to overcome, or die trying, then even in failure, there's a lesson to be had and the story has purpose. Bad things, and bad endings are perfectly fine to exist. But if the story doesn't feel like it's moving anywhere in doing so, then that's just pure sadism." This is Shadowsight's story in a nutshell. The editors dogpile tragic event after event after event on him and everyone else is left cleaning up the mess. Shadowsight doesn't have an arc where he tries and fixes what he's done. Everyone else is left to reassure him that it's not his fault and pick up the pieces. Ashfur was never on his side, and Shadowsight was well aware of that. Ashfur ruined his life. Manipulation works when you have a close bond with the person that is manipulating you. There are several books that do this right - mostly dark romance novels. This is not one of them. It's not like Shadowsight ever tried to see the good in Ashfur. Maybe it would make sense if Shadowsight was like "oh, he's not so bad, he's nice to me..." but he's not. The connection between Shadowsight and Ashfur is not developed in a way that feels genuine or believable. Shadowsight's actions are driven more by desperation and confusion that his Clan and family has abandoned him than by a meaningful bond It is overly simplistic to absolve Shadowsight of all responsibility. His actions, even under manipulation, had real and damaging consequences for the Clans. Victimhood does not exempt one from the consequences of their actions, particularly when those actions have widespread effects. Shadowsight should have done something to try and fix what he, albeit unmeaningly, caused. Yet every time he does (going to the DF more than once) he puts someone in danger. A character who keeps getting others killed or injured is not someone I want to root for. I cannot stress this enough: he should not have been one of those cats to go into the DF in the final book. He had no battle training, he was injured, and yet he only went because of stubborn pride, that ShadowClan should have someone in the mission. Shadowsight is not developed as a character who actively learns from or overcomes his challenges. He's depicted as a perpetual victim, constantly suffering without meaningful growth or resolution. This narrative choice robs his character of agency and reduces his storyline to a series of unfortunate events that happen to him, rather than choices he makes and consequences he faces. It makes no sense for Shadowsight to miss Ashfur when everything Ashfur has done was to belittle and manipulate and harm him, and Shadowsight knows that. Like I mentioned, it might have mad some sense if there were moments that Ashfur was genuinely kind to him and they developed a relationship no matter how dark and twisted their circumstances. But they never did. Shadowsight knew Ashfur was using him and manipulating him. He knew that the entire time. Seeing Bristlefrost start off as "I want to be a warrior so I can ask my crush out" is not hopeful in the slightest. She's a spy, yeah, but why her? What reason does the arc give us that Bristlefrost is the perfect spy, despite being obligatory Firekin POV? Because she's a young warrior? That makes no sense. Adding onto what you said, she has no bonds with her Clanmates, so seeing her literally say "actually, I'm not that sad that Stemleaf died because I wasn't in love with him anymore" is astonishing and, quite frankly, bordering on callous. She suffers the same thing as Rootspring (and Shadowsight) does. She has no distinguishable personality. She does not have a single personality trait to her that I can name. Neither of the three protags are well-rounded characters with their own personalities. They exist to move the story forward. I really don't think Bristlefrost's sacrifice was as emotional as people make it out to be. She was saving Shadowsight - again, another indication that Shadowsight keeps getting the cats around him killed or injured. She has no real relationship to Shadowsight at all. It would make more sense if it was Rootspring she was saving. But it's the same thing, again and again - Shadowsight's the damsel in distress that has to be saved. Plus, the disconnect between her and her Clanmates further reduces the emotional impact of her actions. Everyone was devastated when Graystripe died in that book because we knew him. He provided a legacy to every single cat who knew him. Bristlefrost... has nothing going to her except being Rootspring's short gf and Ivypool's daughter. Her sacrifice feels hollow because it lacks the personal connection and emotional buildup needed to make it impactful. Bristlefrost's character is underdeveloped, making it hard to feel the weight of her death. Without strong ties to her Clanmates or a compelling personal arc, her final act seems more like a plot device than a meaningful conclusion to her story. This, coupled with Shadowsight's constant need for rescue and lack of growth, makes their arcs feel incomplete and unsatisfying. The narrative relies too heavily on external events rather than developing the characters in a way that makes their struggles and sacrifices resonate on a deeper level. So although I appreciate other views, I still believe that the arc is one of the worst, if not, the worst that Warriors has given us. its supernatural powers that suddenly sprung up out of nowhere, coupled with a villain from previous arcs possessing a body, hanging onto dear life on TNP characters because they're the only ones who can carry a plot, with underdeveloped protags who lack personalities and arcs, is why I'm supposed to read it if I lose the bet on Frostpaw's warrior name. Fair, thanks for hearing me out. TBC is definitely not perfect and the flaws you point out are very real and bring down the arc.
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Post by Woofzie on Jun 27, 2024 8:51:08 GMT -5
As a victim of manipulation myself, I find the statement of "it was all Shadowsight's fault and he constantly messes up" to be very hurtful and inconsiderate. And yes, it does make sense to "miss" your manipulator. That's why it's called manipulation, even if you knew what was happening, even after the truth came out, the manipulator and the victim had ties that allowed the former to use the latter. Shadowsight's character, while exaggerated in the context of being in constant risk of death, is a really good example of how to paint isolation, manipulation and the aftermath of the manipulator's fall.
I won't be debating this, period.
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Post by iceheart on Jun 27, 2024 19:41:16 GMT -5
As a victim of manipulation myself, I find the statement of "it was all Shadowsight's fault and he constantly messes up" to be very hurtful and inconsiderate. And yes, it does make sense to "miss" your manipulator. That's why it's called manipulation, even if you knew what was happening, even after the truth came out, the manipulator and the victim had ties that allowed the former to use the latter. Shadowsight's character, while exaggerated in the context of being in constant risk of death, is a really good example of how to paint isolation, manipulation and the aftermath of the manipulator's fall. I won't be debating this, period. I'm not saying that it doesn't make sense. I know it does. I'm saying it's written poorly. There are dozens of other books where it's written well. This is not one of them.
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