Asexual
leafbush!
on thunder and shadow, yayaya
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Post by leafbush! on May 6, 2024 5:32:31 GMT -5
I chose "unjustified" because I believe Cinderpelt cared for Leafpool more than her apprentice deserved and, instead of acting on instinct, should have warned her that there will be consequences or that she will tell Firestar. Although she was justified in showing Leafpool she was making a mistake, using her claws to make her feel sorry for it is not a good choice. I agree. I never thought Cinderpelt would attack Leafpool, so I was surprised that it happened. Always thought it would be a verbal argument...
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 6, 2024 7:49:19 GMT -5
But she did, like several times. The scene between them was the breaking point. Cinderpelt had tried to get Leafpool to focus on her duties, and noticed how much she was failing at them too. Even if she hadn't attacked Leafpool, I feel like she would have ran away regardless and abandoned her and the rest of her Clan. Ok, you have a point there... Leafpool definitely would've ran away with Crowfeather. But she would've come back quicker, because shes so concerned about her medicine cat duties. Cinderpelt just gave her a reason to abandon them though. If it weren't for Midnight, she wouldn't have come back and Thunderclan would be... uhh... (insert picture of crowfood) The only thing the argument between them changed was her running away sooner, but yeah, it would have happened regardless. However, she wasn't going to come back sooner, period. Her thought process was "The Clan has Cinderpelt, so they'll be fine." so she wasn't going to come back at all without Midnight interfering. Didn't help that even after the whole situation, Crowfeather still wanted to leave with her, and she refused because Cinderpelt died, and she was the only remaining medicine cat at that point. In a scenario where Midnight doesn't show up, and finds them coincidently to send the message back faster, Leafpool and Crowfeather were ready to abandon their clans. And since Cinderpelt knew she was going to die soon, ThunderClan would have been without a medicine cat, for who knows how long. Even worse, it would have been after a brutal attack. I get Cinderpelt blowing her lid after multiple attempts to get Leafpool to focus can seem like much, but people have to remember she was also doing that on borrowed time, of course she was desperate. And despite that she still blamed herself in the end, even in her last moments.
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Post by Whispering Willow on May 6, 2024 17:35:53 GMT -5
With 3 votes for Justified and 13 votes for Unjustified, Cinderpelt is Unjustified!
Next scenario: Graystripe: In Fire and Ice, Bluestar decides to attack RiverClan since the river has frozen over and ThunderClan can cross. In response, Fireheart volunteers to join the battle patrol in order to save Graystripe from having to choose between Silverstream and ThunderClan in the battle. This infuriates Graystripe, who attacks Fireheart in the middle of camp after ThunderClan returns because he feels that Fireheart no longer trusts him and is accusing him of disloyalty. Was Graystripe justified in attacking Fireheart?
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Post by Hollyfall on May 6, 2024 18:18:50 GMT -5
I love him, but no, it wasn't justified. Fireheart was looking out for him and Graystripe was having conflicts of interest here, especially when the code tells you to value Clan loyalty first and foremost.
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Asexual
leafbush!
on thunder and shadow, yayaya
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Post by leafbush! on May 7, 2024 5:16:21 GMT -5
With 3 votes for Justified and 13 votes for Unjustified, Cinderpelt is Unjustified! Next scenario: Graystripe: In Fire and Ice, Bluestar decides to attack RiverClan since the river has frozen over and ThunderClan can cross. In response, Fireheart volunteers to join the battle patrol in order to save Graystripe from having to choose between Silverstream and ThunderClan in the battle. This infuriates Graystripe, who attacks Fireheart in the middle of camp after ThunderClan returns because he feels that Fireheart no longer trusts him and is accusing him of disloyalty. Was Graystripe justified in attacking Fireheart? Unjustified. Unlike the Cinderpelt case, this was straight out rage attacking. Poor Fireheart was trying to protect you from being found out or anything, and you attacked him. And... hes breaking the warrior code.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on May 7, 2024 9:32:30 GMT -5
Considering Graystripe admits later on that Fireheart was right, and he does have a major conflict of interest (flat out saying he sees RiverClan as "Silverstream's clanmates" rather than enemies and that it's a problem), he was unjustified here.
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Asexual
#8B0000
Name Colour
🎃👻🦇Brambleheart🦇👻🎃
this halloween i am doing the spookiest thing of all- an exam!
Pronouns: She/her, they/them
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Post by 🎃👻🦇Brambleheart🦇👻🎃 on May 7, 2024 10:31:35 GMT -5
Hi! I have some ideas for some scenarios:
Was Fireheart justified in going behind Bluestar's back to prevent a battle? Was Bluestar justified in changing Brightpaw's name to Lostface? Were the ShadowClan apprentices in AVOS justified to join the Kin due to their unstable Clan? Was RiverClan justified to take Silverstream's kits? Was Tawnypaw justified to go to ShadowClan? Was Daisy justified in taking her kits back to the Horseplace after Berrykit's injury? Was Daisy justified to help raise Smoky and Coriander's kits despite her and Smoky's rocky and ended relationship? Was Mothwing justified to keep RiverClan's struggles a secret, even after indirectly leading to the death of a kit? Were Harestar and Kestrelflight justified in punishing Whistlepaw? Was Goosepaw justified in disliking Stormtail? Was Bluefur justified in disapproving of her sister's relationship with Thistleclaw? Is Leafstar justified for supporting Splashtail? Was Sandynose justified in his harshness towards Twigpaw? Was Sunbeam justified in taking her new Clan's herbs to help her dying, exiled mother? Was Frecklewish justified for her reaction to Mapleshade's kits? Was Alderheart justified into using a potentially deadly experimental treatment for Puddleshine? Was Palebird justified for being distant with Tallkit due to her depression? Was Sandgorse justified for his disappointment in Tallpaw wanting to be a moor runner? Was Crowfeather justified in going behind Onestar's back to get aid for his Clan's stoat crisis?
Sorry if some of these were already done!
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Post by Whispering Willow on May 7, 2024 11:23:35 GMT -5
Hi! I have some ideas for some scenarios: Was Fireheart justified in going behind Bluestar's back to prevent a battle? Was Bluestar justified in changing Brightpaw's name to Lostface? Were the ShadowClan apprentices in AVOS justified to join the Kin due to their unstable Clan? Was RiverClan justified to take Silverstream's kits? Was Tawnypaw justified to go to ShadowClan? Was Daisy justified in taking her kits back to the Horseplace after Berrykit's injury? Was Daisy justified to help raise Smoky and Coriander's kits despite her and Smoky's rocky and ended relationship? Was Mothwing justified to keep RiverClan's struggles a secret, even after indirectly leading to the death of a kit? Were Harestar and Kestrelflight justified in punishing Whistlepaw? Was Goosepaw justified in disliking Stormtail? Was Bluefur justified in disapproving of her sister's relationship with Thistleclaw? Is Leafstar justified for supporting Splashtail? Was Sandynose justified in his harshness towards Twigpaw? Was Sunbeam justified in taking her new Clan's herbs to help her dying, exiled mother? Was Frecklewish justified for her reaction to Mapleshade's kits? Was Alderheart justified into using a potentially deadly experimental treatment for Puddleshine? Was Palebird justified for being distant with Tallkit due to her depression? Was Sandgorse justified for his disappointment in Tallpaw wanting to be a moor runner? Was Crowfeather justified in going behind Onestar's back to get aid for his Clan's stoat crisis? Sorry if some of these were already done! Oh, thank you! I just ran out of backlog and was considering asking if anybody had some ideas. I'm really busy these days and it's hard to find time to sit down and write up a bunch of these. I'll read through these today and pick some out to add to the list. If anybody else has any ideas, feel free to comment them!
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Post by Whispering Willow on May 7, 2024 17:34:35 GMT -5
With 1 vote for Justified and 27 votes for Unjustified, Graystripe is Unjustified!
Next scenario: Ivypaw: In Fading Echoes, Ivypaw decides to join the Dark Forest. She feels upset that Dovepaw no longer spends enough time with her and that she seems to receive a lot of attention from cats like Firestar, Lionblaze, and Jayfeather. Angry that Dovepaw appears to be getting special treatment, Ivypaw easily falls for Hawkfrost’s offer to train her to become a better warrior, not yet realizing their true goal. Was Ivypaw justified in joining the Dark Forest?
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 8, 2024 3:52:03 GMT -5
This is a bit of a strange one, because I don't think this is a "justified or unjustified" type of question, if I'm honest? Considering she was an apprentice who was manipulated into joining the Dark Forest, and didn't fully understand the weight of her circumstance until later. And her joining it wasn't much of a open conscious choice from the start, since Hawkfrost approached her in her dreams first. /gen
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Asexual
leafbush!
on thunder and shadow, yayaya
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Post by leafbush! on May 8, 2024 4:45:58 GMT -5
This is a bit of a strange one, because I don't think this is a "justified or unjustified" type of question, if I'm honest? Considering she was an apprentice who was manipulated into joining the Dark Forest, and didn't fully understand the weight of her circumstance until later. And her joining it wasn't much of a open conscious choice from the start, since Hawkfrost approached her in her dreams first. /gen I agree with you. I don't think justification would be used for someone who didn't know what was happening until it was too late. Apprentices, especially new ones, are always easy to be tricked.
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Post by Whispering Willow on May 8, 2024 8:31:17 GMT -5
Changed the scenario because I agree that the other one didn't really lend itself to justification. It may have been better aimed at Ivypaw's feelings of jealousy, but I don't really think feelings themselves can be justified/unjustified either most of the time. Same character, different situation.
Ivypool: In River of Fire, Ivypool is furious when Dovewing returns from her journey with Tigerstar and announces that she is moving to ShadowClan. Ivypool had previously been attempting to discourage Dovewing from bonding with Tigerstar again, and when she hears this, she turns her back on Dovewing. Was Ivypool justified in her response to Dovewing’s decision?
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on May 8, 2024 9:08:43 GMT -5
I chose justified for the new scenario.
For the future, I think it'd be helpful in developing scenarios to distinguish between what's understandable and what is justified. The former asks whether it is a reasonable reaction or conclusion to draw, whereas the latter is asking if the choice made was morally correct for the circumstances.
A couple of these have been more on the "understandable" end, as well as a lot of Brambleheart's suggestions. How a character felt is not something that can be analyzed morally, but action taken as a result of emotions can be.
Here's some scenario suggestions for the future: -In Mapleshade's Vengeance, Mapleshade goes along with Frecklewish's assumption that her kits were fathered by Birchface. Was she justified in not correcting this lie? -In TBC, Squirrelflight refuses to let others execute Ashfur when he possesses Bramblestar's body. Many cats push for it as the last desperate solution, and accuse Squirrelflight of refusing only because of her personal attachment to Bramblestar. Was she justified in her refusal? -In Tigerheart's Shadow, Dovewing leaves ThunderClan because she has terribly vivid nightmares about her kits' fate if she remained with the clans. She left without telling anyone. Was she justified in leaving? -In Forest of Secrets, Fireheart and Graystripe secretly hunt on ThunderClan land in order to feed RiverClan, who has been suffering from the flood. Were they justified in feeding a rival clan with prey on their own territory, without permission from anyone in authority? -In Firestar's Quest, it is revealed that the ancient SkyClan leader Spiderstar chose to disband his clan as a result of the rats living on their territory. He believed it was in everyone's best interest rather than moving territories. Was Spiderstar justified in disbanding SkyClan instead of holding it together somehow? -In Into the Wild, Crookedstar agrees to allow ShadowClan to hunt on their land in order to avoid potentially deadly conflict with their power-hungry rivals. Crookedstar explains that with the river as their main source of prey, they can afford to share some of their hunting grounds rather than engage in bloody battles. Was he justified in this decision?
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Post by Moonblazer on May 8, 2024 10:55:38 GMT -5
Justified. Dovewing made her choice, and Ivypool has every right to respond with ignoring her in turn. Especially when Dovewing waltzes into the camp with Tigerheart and her kits. Considering Dovewing is now a Shadowclan cat, Ivypool has no reason to give her special treatment. Sisters or not, Dovewing chose to leave without a word and Ivypool clearly was done trying to convince her otherwise, so the next best thing is to just turn away from it all and focus on her own Clan.
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Post by Whispering Willow on May 9, 2024 17:03:02 GMT -5
With 17 votes for Justified and 5 votes for Unjustified, Ivypool is Justified!
Let me know if I'm missing any crucial context for this one. I haven't read BP in detail in years so I'm going off of limited memory.
Next scenario: Thistleclaw: In Bluestar’s Prophecy, Thistleclaw threatens Bluefur not to interact with Whitekit. He blames her for Snowfur’s death, doubts Bluefur’s loyalty to ThunderClan, and believes that she is too soft. He also blames her for failing to be present with Whitekit following Snowfur's death. Due to having to train Tigerpaw, however, he is unable to be present to prevent Bluefur’s influence. Was Thistleclaw justified in trying to separate Bluefur and Whitekit?
Edit: added another bit I forgot
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Post by Hollyfall on May 9, 2024 18:13:57 GMT -5
Thistleclaw is his father, but, and I could just be misremembering, but did Thistleclaw even make an attempt to bond with Whitekit? Yeah he was a mentor and that's obviously busy work but I genuinely don't remember him even trying to be a father. He yells at her for not being there for Whitekit, but then gets mad when she tries?
Anyway though, unjustified. He's asking his son's aunt to not interact with him while simultaneously not bothering to be present in his son's life. He's being hypocritical and Whitekit needed a parental figure in his life that would give him love. Not saying Robinwing (his foster mother) wouldn't, but she had other kits. Thistleclaw is finding every contrived excuse he can to force Bluefur out of his life and criticize her.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 9, 2024 18:57:18 GMT -5
Full context! This scene takes place half a moon after Snowfur dies.
Following this, they go on patrol together, where Thistleclaw confronts her about her loyalty.
A moon later:
The next time we see it brought up, Whitestorm has just earned his warrior name, but we get some insight on what his apprenticeship was like:
With all this in mind, definitely unjustified. It'd be one thing if Thistleclaw was the type to be upset that Bluefur had been absent and was worried she'd bail again. Instead, his concern is Bluefur being a bad influence on him, but his definition of "bad influence" is... being nice, which he equates to weakness.
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Post by Whispering Willow on May 9, 2024 19:12:38 GMT -5
Thistleclaw is his father, but, and I could just be misremembering, but did Thistleclaw even make an attempt to bond with Whitekit? Yeah he was a mentor and that's obviously busy work but I genuinely don't remember him even trying to be a father. He yells at her for not being there for Whitekit, but then gets mad when she tries? Anyway though, unjustified. He's asking his son's aunt to not interact with him while simultaneously not bothering to be present in his son's life. He's being hypocritical and Whitekit needed a parental figure in his life that would give him love. Not saying Robinwing (his foster mother) wouldn't, but she had other kits. Thistleclaw is finding every contrived excuse he can to force Bluefur out of his life and criticize her. Like Tinuviel showed, we know that Thistleclaw was trying to train Whitekit, which is a big reason why Bluefur decided that she needed to try to offset his negative influence over Whitekit (besides Goosefeather's warnings). We don't really get to see anything more than that in terms of his rearing methods, though, and we don't see how long their one-on-one training went on for.
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Asexual
leafbush!
on thunder and shadow, yayaya
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Post by leafbush! on May 10, 2024 4:26:11 GMT -5
thistleclaw is never justified
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on May 10, 2024 10:52:15 GMT -5
I don't think keeping your child away from their dead mother's family for being "too nice" is ever justified.
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Post by Whispering Willow on May 10, 2024 17:02:49 GMT -5
With 1 vote for Justified and 23 votes for Unjustified, Thistleclaw is Unjustified!
Next scenario: Ashfur: In Outcast, Lionpaw expresses unhappiness with Ashfur’s training and says that he is not hard enough on him. In response, Ashfur grows angry and engages in a hostile training session with Lionpaw with unsheathed claws. This horrifies the other cats attending the session and frightens the apprentices, but Ashfur praises Lionpaw after Brackenfur stops them. The incident is severe enough that Hollypaw reports it to Brambleclaw, but he reassures her, saying that Ashfur was pleased with Lionpaw’s performance. Was Ashfur justified in engaging Lionpaw in such a brutal fight?
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Post by dahliadove - #1 nightpelt fan on May 11, 2024 3:43:03 GMT -5
There is no possible way this is justified
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Post by Whispering Willow on May 11, 2024 17:01:26 GMT -5
With 2 votes for Justified and 24 votes for Unjustified, Ashfur is Unjustified! Next scenario: Mapleshade: In Mapleshade’s Vengeance, Mapleshade goes along with Frecklewish’s assumption that her kits were fathered by Birchface, thinking that she can tell the truth later. Was she justified in not correcting this assumption? (credit to Saint Ambrosef )
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Post by moongloweevee on May 11, 2024 20:53:26 GMT -5
Yeah, unjustified here. Lying by omission is still lying.
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Post by wygolvillage on May 11, 2024 21:05:28 GMT -5
Mapleshade is ALWAYS justified and I will ALWAYS vote for her <- mostly in jest but I do think she was in the right to lie by omission especially considering what happened when the truth got out. The fact that the clan was willing to exile 3 very young kits just because of their bloodline is justification enough for Mapleshade to keep that a secret with the opportunities she was given.
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Post by moongloweevee on May 11, 2024 21:38:55 GMT -5
Mapleshade is ALWAYS justified and I will ALWAYS vote for her <- mostly in jest but I do think she was in the right to lie by omission especially considering what happened when the truth got out. The fact that the clan was willing to exile 3 very young kits just because of their bloodline is justification enough for Mapleshade to keep that a secret with the opportunities she was given. To be fair, she could have mentioned she didn't want the father to be named and they wouldn't have thrown her and her kits out. Mapleshade was extremely short sighted with how she went about the kits anyway. She should have waited until they were older before trying to get them to meet Appledusk
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 12, 2024 3:26:37 GMT -5
Honestly, justified.
Although she lied by omission, in her head she believed that it was StarClan helping her at the moment. And despite that, she was going to tell the truth later. However, it becomes quickly evident that it wasn't the best idea, considering Oakstar and Frecklewish were so eager to use the kits as weapons for tools of revenge against Appledusk one day. Something that even Mapleshade had to remind them of was against the warrior code.
Even if Mapleshade didn't ago along with the pressuring lie, she wasn't going to tell others the name of the father anyways, she planned to keep it to herself, and was very clear about that from the start. Which honestly, was her right to.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 12, 2024 3:32:12 GMT -5
Mapleshade is ALWAYS justified and I will ALWAYS vote for her <- mostly in jest but I do think she was in the right to lie by omission especially considering what happened when the truth got out. The fact that the clan was willing to exile 3 very young kits just because of their bloodline is justification enough for Mapleshade to keep that a secret with the opportunities she was given. To be fair, she could have mentioned she didn't want the father to be named and they wouldn't have thrown her and her kits out. Mapleshade was extremely short sighted with how she went about the kits anyway. She should have waited until they were older before trying to get them to meet Appledusk They would have thrown her and her kits out regardless. I think it needs to be reminded that Ravenwing is the one who supposedly received an omen as a sign that the kits shouldn't be in ThunderClan. And then jumped to conclusions that their father was Appledusk, although Mapleshade never confirmed that either. Ravenwing ran back to tell Oakstar, to which he put her on trial in front of everyone and demanded to know the truth. Frecklewish even defended her at one point, and when they confirmed that Birchface wasn't the father, that's when they all looked to Mapleshade about who the real father is. It wasn't until AFTER it was revealed to be Appledusk that Frecklewish attacked Mapleshade in front of her children, going for her face, until she was dragged off. Mapleshade said that the father of her kits shouldn't matter, and she's right, she was very straight forward about wanting to raise her kits as ThunderClan cats even in that moment. But Oakstar refused that, and then used the omen as a means of justification to throw her AND her kits out when Mapleshade asked for leniency, as a Queen has the right to. Oakstar even goes as far as to asking Mapleshade why'd it have to be him, pretty much confirming if it was any other tom's kits, he wouldn't have done what he did. Or at least would have been way less harsh about the punishment.
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Asexual
leafbush!
on thunder and shadow, yayaya
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Post by leafbush! on May 12, 2024 7:02:25 GMT -5
a mapleshade moment normally, she's justified, but if we're talking about this scenario, I don't think so
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Post by moongloweevee on May 12, 2024 9:11:53 GMT -5
To be fair, she could have mentioned she didn't want the father to be named and they wouldn't have thrown her and her kits out. Mapleshade was extremely short sighted with how she went about the kits anyway. She should have waited until they were older before trying to get them to meet Appledusk They would have thrown her and her kits out regardless. I think it needs to be reminded that Ravenwing is the one who supposedly received an omen as a sign that the kits shouldn't be in ThunderClan. And then jumped to conclusions that their father was Appledusk, although Mapleshade never confirmed that either. Ravenwing ran back to tell Oakstar, to which he put her on trial in front of everyone and demanded to know the truth. Frecklewish even defended her at one point, and when they confirmed that Birchface wasn't the father, that's when they all looked to Mapleshade about who the real father is. It wasn't until AFTER it was revealed to be Appledusk that Frecklewish attacked Mapleshade in front of her children, going for her face, until she was dragged off. Mapleshade said that the father of her kits shouldn't matter, and she's right, she was very straight forward about wanting to raise her kits as ThunderClan cats even in that moment. But Oakstar refused that, and then used the omen as a means of justification to throw her AND her kits out when Mapleshade asked for leniency, as a Queen has the right to. Oakstar even goes as far as to asking Mapleshade why'd it have to be him, pretty much confirming if it was any other tom's kits, he wouldn't have done what he did. Or at least would have been way less harsh about the punishment. A few points I would like to make: While Mapleshade was going to tell the truth eventually, she basically allowed Frecklewish to basically weaponize the kits against Appledusk. She basically flat out told Frecklewish to tell Appledusk her kits were born at the gathering- something that confused Frecklewish at first but realised it gave her ammunition against him to brag about her brother still being alive even though Mapleshade wanted him to know for a completely different reason. So, take out Ravenwing out of the river scene and you have to look at the alternatives. Would her kits keep quiet about going to play in the river when kits aren't supposed to be out of camp? Would Riverclan have said something at the next gathering or patrol meetup? This is why I mentioned the short sightedness because taking her kits to the river could have still blown up in her face. Yes, it was wrong of Oakstar and Frecklewish to weaponise the kits but Mapleshade is equally guilty for allowing it to happen in the first place by giving them false hope.
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