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Post by stupidflower on Jun 29, 2024 18:58:02 GMT -5
I mean, didn’t Jagged Peak know that Tom had taken the kits with the intent to hide them inside a garage for the rest of their lives knowing the Twolegs would take them otherwise, and reveled in Turtle Tail’s death? The kits themselves didn’t know that, would they still want to know Tom if they knew how he’d been towards their mother? Was there a way to be sure Tom was truly safe for his kits to be near after that?
Also Sparrow Fur was only about 8 moons at the most at this time. The cats were more lenient about where younger cats could go then, but it still wasn’t safe to let her go completely on her own, I don’t think, not on the open moor and in technically enemy territory. I’m not paying attention to how Gray Wing reacted or what happened to Sparrow Fur, rather how Jagged Peak acted on his own.
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Post by asrise on Jun 29, 2024 19:47:06 GMT -5
This is kind of a hard one, if we're just going from Jagged Peak's judgement. I mean, Sparrow Fur isn't exactly a little kit, but it's still a bad idea to let her leave the territory completely alone even if Jagged Peak didn't know anything about Tom. So yes, it was negligent, especially since he was told to look after her.
I also just don't understand the argument that Grey Wing isn't right to snap at him for this. I mean, given what happened to Sparrow Fur, why wouldn't he? It would be strange if he was completely calm, in my opinion.
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Post by Known Troll Account on Jun 29, 2024 20:24:09 GMT -5
Read some of these, I was interested to reply about Ivypool, I hope that's okay.
Ivypool: I'm really pissed off at how Dovewing handled her situation. She was shitty to her clan, her parents and her sister about the situation. Everyone was worried about her, only for Dovewing to return and say "I'm ditching my sister and family for a shitty guy!" It's okay to fall in love with Tigerstar, but she was very shallow about how she handled it. People were worried about her, and Dovewing left with irritated, half-assed replies. She didn't even want to say goodbye, Alderheart told her to say goodbye, her plan was to abandon her worrying clan without a notice that she's still alive. Ivypool had every ****ing right to ignore her when Dovewing said goodbye, so I'm gonna say justified. Why people defend Dovewing and her selfishness just so she can be "happy with Tigerstar", I don't understand it. She should have moved years ago. I would've been happier with it if she moved back after The Last Hope when she fulfilled the prophecy.
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Post by kitters on Jun 29, 2024 21:12:26 GMT -5
I just don't understand why she asked jagged peak of all cats. His response to her asking him should have been "go ask gray wing or tall shadow."
I don't think anyone is in the wrong here except one eye. She was basically an adult after all. If an 18 year old human wanted to meet with her estranged dad, even if he has a history of abuse, it's their choice.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 30, 2024 2:58:03 GMT -5
Unjustified.
Considering what happened, I don't blame Gray Wing for being enraged over the situation. Dude has lost enough loved ones, and he didn't need to lose one of his own daughters too. On the other hand, I just don't know why anyone would think it was a good idea to let Sparrow Fur leave on her own, period, especially when they all knew about Tom's reputation. Jagged Peak should have at least told Gray Wing about it, and Clear Sky shouldn't have just stood there like a rock and let his niece almost get iced. It's like neither had a brain here, but one is obviously worse than the other. I just find it crazy that the one that Sparrow Fur went to go see was the one that saved her life in the end, and ironically also died in the same instance.
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Post by Whispering Willow on Jul 1, 2024 17:25:35 GMT -5
With 8 votes for Justified and 12 votes for Unjustified, Jagged Peak is Unjustified! Next scenario: Thistleclaw 2: In Bluestar’s Prophecy, Bluefur, Thistleclaw, and Tigerpaw happen upon a lost kitten in ThunderClan territory after Tigerpaw tracks him down. Despite Bluefur’s protests, Thistleclaw allows, even encourages, his apprentice to attack the kit to punish him for trespassing. Before Tigerpaw can potentially kill him, Bluefur finally intervenes, threatening to report them to Sunstar if they do it again. Was Thistleclaw justified in allowing and goading his apprentice to attack the kit, treating him as an intruder? The respective scene is provided below. Tigerpaw attacks Tiny:
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Post by MadameDelune on Jul 1, 2024 18:22:31 GMT -5
Unjustified! Although the warrior code states you should challenge all intruders on your territory.. it also says you should protect kits from anywhere. Or maybe that last one wasn’t added to the warrior code at that time?? Regardless, Thistleclaw has a brain. Obviously he has to know a tiny kitten like Tiny wasn’t going to harm ThunderClan in any sort of capacity. He just loves bloodshed and uses any excuse he can get for violence.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jul 1, 2024 18:34:00 GMT -5
Absolutely unjustified!
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jul 1, 2024 18:40:03 GMT -5
Unjustified! Although the warrior code states you should challenge all intruders on your territory.. it also says you should protect kits from anywhere. Or maybe that last one wasn’t added to the warrior code at that time?? It had actually been a part of the warrior code for awhile now by this point, at least if you follow Code of the Clans, specifically the twelfth one to be added. But yeah, even if it wasn't, a kit is still a kit.
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#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Jul 1, 2024 20:23:49 GMT -5
Unjustified.
Thistleclaw encouraging Tigerpaw to attack the kit was way too much. A kit isn't a threat.
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Post by cometchaos on Jul 2, 2024 2:04:23 GMT -5
Unjustified! Although the warrior code states you should challenge all intruders on your territory.. it also says you should protect kits from anywhere. Or maybe that last one wasn’t added to the warrior code at that time?? Regardless, Thistleclaw has a brain. Obviously he has to know a tiny kitten like Tiny wasn’t going to harm ThunderClan in any sort of capacity. He just loves bloodshed and uses any excuse he can get for violence. this^
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Jul 2, 2024 4:08:01 GMT -5
Thistleclaw was a legitimate psychopath. I still don't understand why people defend him in other spaces
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Non-binary
flipwish
when do we get more hairless warrior cats
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Post by flipwish on Jul 2, 2024 9:35:17 GMT -5
remember what they say: the only justified thing thistleclaw did was die
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Post by 𓆩♡𓆪Moonshine𓆩♡𓆪 on Jul 2, 2024 9:35:46 GMT -5
I really want to know the reasoning behind calling Thistleclaw justified in this. Suddenly it's okay to maul kits now?
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Post by Purdyisbestboi on Jul 2, 2024 9:49:19 GMT -5
He was so unjustified here
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 2, 2024 9:54:05 GMT -5
im pretty sure he could have just like. yelled at Tiny and he would have freaked out and run away. fighting a kit is beyond overkill.
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Post by tumblepaw on Jul 3, 2024 11:13:16 GMT -5
I really want to know the reasoning behind calling Thistleclaw justified in this. Suddenly it's okay to maul kits now? Maybe that’s his vote. XD When one of these polls first came out, I accidentally voted “justified” for a character. I fixed it immediately afterwards.
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Post by Whispering Willow on Jul 3, 2024 18:26:25 GMT -5
With 1 vote for Justified and 30 votes for Unjustified, Thistleclaw is Unjustified! Next scenario: Frecklewish (TC): In Mapleshade’s Vengeance, Frecklewish is furious with Mapleshade after finding out that her kits were fathered by Appledusk, who killed Frecklewish’s brother, Birchface. Mapleshade finds out from Nettlepaw that, when Mapleshade had attempted to cross the river with her kits, Frecklewish had watched and failed to act. During their later confrontation, Frecklewish says that she had believed that a RiverClan patrol would help them. Was Frecklewish justified in deciding not to help save the kits? Note: I know this one is super controversial and there are some uncertain variables, but please try to be civil and make your best judgment with what we know. I included the river scene below for any details about it that people might have forgotten. Otherwise, we have the scene where Nettlepaw tells Mapleshade about Frecklewish and we have Mapleshade's confrontation with Frecklewish. The River Scene: Nettlepaw and Mapleshade: Frecklewish and Mapleshade:
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Post by moongloweevee on Jul 3, 2024 18:42:00 GMT -5
I went with justified for one good reason: people are told not to go jumping into raging rivers unless they're experienced and trained for it. If Frecklewish jumped in, the kits would have most likely both been died and rheir bodies lost as she would have split the attention of those trained in the river (in the case Riverclan).
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Post by dandelions on Jul 3, 2024 19:03:47 GMT -5
There’s a few inferences that have to be made for this one. From this selection of scenes, all we get is that she saw “RiverClan cats on the far shore” and “thought [the] kits would be saved”. Interpret that generously, and the patrol was already going to their aid so she assumed there was nothing in her power to do. But it could just as easily be interpreted as her seeing the patrol calmly walking on the other side and making no effort to get their attention, which doesn’t reflect well on her character. The patrol seems to get there very quickly, so I’m not convinced Frecklewish could have sped up their arrival. It’s also clear that she walked away without seeing the outcome, but we never hear her voice why.
Her line “I never meant for them to die” does have the connotation of assuming responsibility, which is interesting, but I’m not entirely sure what to do with it. So, justified or unjustified comes entirely down to personal interpretation of those gaps, in my opinion. Based on the patrol’s quick arrival, I’d say justified because I don’t think it was in her power to change the outcome. The weirdest part of the whole situation to me is that, of all the controversies in these books, this is the one the story team chose to respond to and double down on.
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Post by asrise on Jul 3, 2024 19:19:31 GMT -5
She's justified.
If Mapleshade couldn't swim to save her kits while already having experience crossing the river, how could Frecklewish? She would not be saving anyone if she tried.
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#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Jul 3, 2024 21:23:59 GMT -5
Unjustified.
She didn't need to jump in the river, but she could've gotten help.
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Post by moongloweevee on Jul 3, 2024 23:05:56 GMT -5
Unjustified. She didn't need to jump in the river, but she could've gotten help. We don't know the narrative in how long she stayed. She acknowledged there was a Riverclan patrol on the opposite side of the river and left. The rain was also coming down so hard that even if Frecklewish did call out to the patrol, would they have heard her over the rain and roar of the river?
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Jul 3, 2024 23:31:48 GMT -5
Unjustified.
No I will not further elaborate. Lol
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 4, 2024 9:38:05 GMT -5
There’s a few inferences that have to be made for this one. From this selection of scenes, all we get is that she saw “RiverClan cats on the far shore” and “thought [the] kits would be saved”. Interpret that generously, and the patrol was already going to their aid so she assumed there was nothing in her power to do. But it could just as easily be interpreted as her seeing the patrol calmly walking on the other side and making no effort to get their attention, which doesn’t reflect well on her character. The patrol seems to get there very quickly, so I’m not convinced Frecklewish could have sped up their arrival. It’s also clear that she walked away without seeing the outcome, but we never hear her voice why. Her line “I never meant for them to die” does have the connotation of assuming responsibility, which is interesting, but I’m not entirely sure what to do with it. So, justified or unjustified comes entirely down to personal interpretation of those gaps, in my opinion. Based on the patrol’s quick arrival, I’d say justified because I don’t think it was in her power to change the outcome. The weirdest part of the whole situation to me is that, of all the controversies in these books, this is the one the story team chose to respond to and double down on. This is such a good analysis of my exact problems with this scene. We now know what is considered "canon" from the editors' point of view, which is that Frecklewish did not make any attempts to help and simply walked away, but prior to that revelation there was huge discourse on the matter. And it always struck me as a dumb thing to take an absolute stand on, since there's so much room for interpretation in either direction and no way to prove which interpretation is correct. Personally, I think the editors coming out to confirm one way or another was kind of lame, because the unanswered question of whether Frecklewish was actually guilty of her accused crime made her murder far more interesting. It's a death knell for reader speculation. I don't know how to answer this scenario question except to say "unjustified" because, well, the editors ruined the suspense and made is clear that Frecklewish's canon intent was poor and uncaring. We can't argue one way or another because it's no longer up for personal interpretation. Which sucks.
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Post by dandelions on Jul 4, 2024 12:11:36 GMT -5
I don't know how to answer this scenario question except to say "unjustified" because, well, the editors ruined the suspense and made is clear that Frecklewish's canon intent was poor and uncaring. We can't argue one way or another because it's no longer up for personal interpretation. Which sucks. I have trouble accepting the article’s authority to clarify canon intent, because they’re not claiming “we talked to the people who worked on this novella and they intentionally wrote her as negligent”, they’re clearly interpreting the same evidence anyone else reading the book has to work with. In my opinion they even missed a couple details, like claiming she failed to take responsibility, right after referencing her “I never meant for them to die” line. Slight tangent, but upon further thought that line could also be interpreted multiple ways, it doesn’t have to be about her inaction at the river, she could also be taking responsibility due to her call for their exile (I’ll readily admit her treatment of the kits is unambiguously awful—she’s not innocent, but I don’t think the river scene is where her guilt lies). There’s so much to think about for a pretty short-lived situation, and we don’t get that a lot in this series so it’s genuinely exciting to me. Definitely wish they hadn’t made an official comment on it, for the same reasons you said.
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Post by Whispering Willow on Jul 4, 2024 18:23:19 GMT -5
There’s a few inferences that have to be made for this one. From this selection of scenes, all we get is that she saw “RiverClan cats on the far shore” and “thought [the] kits would be saved”. Interpret that generously, and the patrol was already going to their aid so she assumed there was nothing in her power to do. But it could just as easily be interpreted as her seeing the patrol calmly walking on the other side and making no effort to get their attention, which doesn’t reflect well on her character. The patrol seems to get there very quickly, so I’m not convinced Frecklewish could have sped up their arrival. It’s also clear that she walked away without seeing the outcome, but we never hear her voice why. Her line “I never meant for them to die” does have the connotation of assuming responsibility, which is interesting, but I’m not entirely sure what to do with it. So, justified or unjustified comes entirely down to personal interpretation of those gaps, in my opinion. Based on the patrol’s quick arrival, I’d say justified because I don’t think it was in her power to change the outcome. The weirdest part of the whole situation to me is that, of all the controversies in these books, this is the one the story team chose to respond to and double down on. This is such a good analysis of my exact problems with this scene. We now know what is considered "canon" from the editors' point of view, which is that Frecklewish did not make any attempts to help and simply walked away, but prior to that revelation there was huge discourse on the matter. And it always struck me as a dumb thing to take an absolute stand on, since there's so much room for interpretation in either direction and no way to prove which interpretation is correct. Personally, I think the editors coming out to confirm one way or another was kind of lame, because the unanswered question of whether Frecklewish was actually guilty of her accused crime made her murder far more interesting. It's a death knell for reader speculation. I don't know how to answer this scenario question except to say "unjustified" because, well, the editors ruined the suspense and made is clear that Frecklewish's canon intent was poor and uncaring. We can't argue one way or another because it's no longer up for personal interpretation. Which sucks. This is an excellent point, and though I personally choose to ignore that article, it has certainly hurt our freedom to interpret Frecklewish's storyline for a lot of people. It hurt a plot that otherwise had a lot of discourse and made for excellent debates (as long as they remained civil and reasonable). Even so, I do think that enough people have regarded that article negatively that many will still choose to interpret the scenes for themselves, as many have chosen not to consider that article canon. I did think of the article while writing this scenario, but I chose to use it anyway because the Frecklewish debate has not truly ended even after that article was published.
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#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Jul 4, 2024 20:44:49 GMT -5
Unjustified. She didn't need to jump in the river, but she could've gotten help. We don't know the narrative in how long she stayed. She acknowledged there was a Riverclan patrol on the opposite side of the river and left. The rain was also coming down so hard that even if Frecklewish did call out to the patrol, would they have heard her over the rain and roar of the river? This is not something I'm willing to discuss. I'm not changing my mind.
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Post by 🎃👻 Slightdapple 👻🎃 on Jul 4, 2024 22:22:38 GMT -5
Unjustified.
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Post by Whispering Willow on Jul 5, 2024 17:45:42 GMT -5
With 11 votes for Justified and 17 votes for Unjustified, Frecklewish is Unjustified! Sorry this took a bit, I'm having touchpad sticking issues at the moment so it took a while. Next scenario: Hollyleaf 2: In Sunrise, Ashfur attempts to kill Hollyleaf, Lionblaze, and Jayfeather in the fire, only for Squirrelflight to reveal that the three warriors are not her kits in order to protect them. Ashfur says that he is going to reveal this secret at the next Gathering in order to hurt Squirrelflight. To prevent the Clans from discovering their true heritage, Hollyleaf kills Ashfur. Was Hollyleaf justified in killing Ashfur? I included the fire scene from Long Shadows for context, and then the fire scene in Hollyleaf's perspective and Ashfur's murder from Hollyleaf's Story. The Fire Scene: Hollyleaf's Perspective (Fire Scene): Hollyleaf's Murder:
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