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Post by Whispering Willow on Apr 3, 2024 9:20:20 GMT -5
In your opinion, was Tigerstar's decision to take over RiverClan following Mistystar and Reedwhisker's deaths justified?
I personally vote no. I get that the Clans have come to a general agreement that they all need to work together and help one another when a Clan is facing adversity, but Tigerstar's actions here felt as though he simply wanted to have control. I feel like he has a terrible need to feel in control of any situation that has even the slightest chance of affecting ShadowClan or his family, which can lead to misguided actions like this. Plus, as I have seen some people point out before, Tigerstar II's actions are painfully reminiscent of Tigerstar I's conquering of RiverClan, even if he doesn't have the same intentions. Many cats of RiverClan made it very clear that they didn't want Tigerstar to take over and that they wanted to be left to sort out their own Clan themselves. Tigerstar forced them to submit to what he thought was best for them anyway, even going so far as to threaten to kill Duskfur if she didn't submit.
I feel that the other Clans and their leaders could have provided support to RiverClan without ShadowClan taking it over and forcing their warriors into RiverClan's camp. Checking up on them, offering support from their medicine cats for Mothwing and Frostpaw (when she was a med cat apprentice), attempting to communicate with StarClan, helping RiverClan make important decisions (such as choosing a leader) if asked, etc. I think Tigerstar II went far ahead of himself in an attempt to gain control over the situation, rather than standing by and letting RiverClan know that ShadowClan would offer support and help if they needed it.
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Post by wygolvillage on Apr 3, 2024 9:32:14 GMT -5
Yeah, I really don't think he helped them much in the long run. I think there were much better solutions that could have been used, like sending a mediator or a more seasoned medicine cat to lend their support and helped RiverClan decide, in a way that wouldn't necessitate a forceful intervention. I think his takeover only contributed further to the political division in the Clans and made the whole situation messier as a whole. That being said, Tigerstar II being kind of a "softened" version of Tigerstar, who takes the same actions for "right" reasons is pretty cool from a writing perspective. You know what they say about the road to hell and good intentions
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Post by کیوان on Apr 3, 2024 10:09:26 GMT -5
You can’t justify taking over people in the name of peace and start acting like you did nothing wrong. The takeover of RiverClan was exactly what someone like Splashtail needed to get a shot at power. I hope Tigerstar gets held accountable for this fiasco when the arc is over.
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Post by lilythorn on Apr 3, 2024 10:35:27 GMT -5
No. If anything, he made things worse. Every single cat told him not to do what he did. His own mother even compared him to Tigerstar lol. Others even offered to help with Riverclan and Tigerheartstar denied that help.
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Post by Whispering Willow on Apr 3, 2024 10:41:58 GMT -5
You can’t justify taking over people in the name of peace and start acting like you did nothing wrong. The takeover of RiverClan was exactly what someone like Splashtail needed to get a shot at power. I hope Tigerstar gets held accountable for this fiasco when the arc is over. Tigerstar certainly needs to face some serious consequences for his actions, but he usually doesn't. I fear that they are going to have some cat--probably Dovewing or some other close cat, or worse, one of the protagonists--justify his actions and everyone's just going to accept it, even though everyone was against it the entire time.
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Post by wygolvillage on Apr 3, 2024 10:44:24 GMT -5
Tigerstar certainly needs to face some serious consequences for his actions, but he usually doesn't. I fear that they are going to have some cat--probably Dovewing or some other close cat, or worse, one of the protagonists--justify his actions and everyone's just going to accept it, even though everyone was against it the entire time. FWIW Wind did have a scene where Frostpaw criticizes Tigerstar's invasion pretty publically, so I don't think that the protagonists are going to be 100% team Tigerstar lol
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Post by Whispering Willow on Apr 3, 2024 10:46:28 GMT -5
Tigerstar certainly needs to face some serious consequences for his actions, but he usually doesn't. I fear that they are going to have some cat--probably Dovewing or some other close cat, or worse, one of the protagonists--justify his actions and everyone's just going to accept it, even though everyone was against it the entire time. FWIW Wind did have a scene where Frostpaw criticizes Tigerstar's invasion pretty publically, so I don't think that the protagonists are going to be 100% team Tigerstar lol Ah, I haven't read Wind yet, so I didn't know that. I just don't trust them to deal with the aftermath of Tigerstar's invasion properly, but they could prove me wrong.
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Post by silverstarpenguin on Apr 3, 2024 10:58:35 GMT -5
He had and still has good intentions, but invading another Clan is never justified. His forceful takeover helped Splashtail in further dividing RC by making its warriors see the other Clans as enemies once again, with the few reasonable cats left now either gone or dead.
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Post by Katanaheart on Apr 3, 2024 11:07:38 GMT -5
I don’t think threatening to kill one of RiverClan’s senior warriors at the time when your forced takeover was coming close to ending lives is ever justifiable. Especially when your own mother is comparing you to your murderous and hateful grandfather, Junior.
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Post by iceheart on Apr 3, 2024 11:32:15 GMT -5
No.
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Post by Slightdapple on Apr 3, 2024 12:14:07 GMT -5
Definitely not.
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Post by Hollyfall on Apr 3, 2024 12:52:11 GMT -5
In what world is he? It's described in-universe as a conquest and absolutely is since he just beat RiverClan into submission and forced them into accepting his help. It's pointed out as a stupid decision that removed RiverClan's independence and allowed Splashtail to gain power. Cats tell Tigerstar to his face that is was terrible, and his own mother draws comparisons to his objectively evil grandfather, lol.
The absolute bare minimum credit I think he can be given is that RiverClan probably needed help, but even then, he takes it upon himself (again, by force) to fix their problems. Instead of consulting with RiverClan or the other leaders, which is what Brambleclaw and Leafstar tell him too.
Considering cats are repeatedly telling him that it was a stupid decision, and there's a line that indicates he realizes it was wrong. I'm hoping he isn't let off the hook so easily by the time the arc finishes.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 3, 2024 13:02:59 GMT -5
I've made my case many times already, but absolutely not! While RiverClan clearly needed help, he absolutely escalated the situation by not only invading their camp at night, but he did so with a whole army behind him and threatened to kill a senior warrior. The only reason RiverClan was even granted some autonomy was because Icewing and Harelight stroked his ego at the risk of being ostracized by their Clanmates, and even then, he still had his warriors—including his deputy—stay in territory which wasn't even theirs, essentially making RiverClan a vassal. Because he didn't know how else to grieve for his son.
And the most annoying part is that he's repeatedly tried to downplay his actions even after being accused (by his own mother, and for the second time no less) that he's living up to his namesake, and he probably won't suffer any real consequences long-term for this anyway!
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Post by Pyropelt on Apr 3, 2024 13:45:53 GMT -5
I think Tigerstar was right to step in by being temporary leader for RiverClan, even though he went overboard multiple times (with threatening and taking away agency maybe). He could’ve done it calmly and rationally talking about the problems more.
But RiverClan were keeping crucial information away from the other 4 Clans. And with how much they meet (battles, boarder patrols, gatherings, leaders coming over) that wasn’t good. Their secrets were beginning to affect the other Clans and not in a good way. Plus Mistystar did the most disservice after she died, since she could’ve helped by giving information. And even Reedwhisker for going along with her. I think RiverClan made a huge mistake with all this (before Tigerstar stepped in to help).
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Post by Sphinxwhisker on Apr 3, 2024 14:29:54 GMT -5
Beating people into compulsive compliance is never the solution. Regardless of intentions. Wind Spoilers Although the writers seem to think contrarily, as they’re quite insistent on shoehorning Tigerheart’ good intentions spiel wherever they deem fit, and trying so hard to water down his actions as not being “that bad . However, with Frostpaw publicly voicing her disapproval of his invasion, and many of ShC supporting her sentiment, perhaps he’ll be booted out of leadership by the arcs end. Doubtful though.
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#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Apr 3, 2024 19:20:02 GMT -5
No, he wasn't. Even though he meant well.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Apr 4, 2024 11:51:57 GMT -5
Did RiverClan need help? Yes. Was Tigertwo justified in how he went about it? Absolutely not. There were plenty of other ways that could have gone instead. Also, it didn't help that his motives could have been questioned after the death of one of his kits. They feared retribution from him over that alone. He definitely escalated the situation, and because of his actions it made the events in Wind happen like a domino effect. Now some lunatic is in power, out of pure desperation, because RiverClan doesn't want to go back to being under ShadowClan's paws. I'm glad Frostpaw at least called him out on it in front of his own clan, deserved.
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