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Post by Lionstrike on Jan 29, 2024 11:11:03 GMT -5
In Super Editions like Graystripe's Vow and stuff they say he was "difficult and troublesome" and he frequently argued with the warriors as an apprentice. However, in the TPB he seemed like a positive, nice apprentice.
A front or writing inconsistency?
Maybe he was not going to be a villain yet.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Jan 29, 2024 11:27:56 GMT -5
I actually made a thread with a similar question all the way back in 2021 and received some great answers: wcrpforums.com/thread/82203/ashfur-behaving-ooc-graystripes-vowWouldn't call it "ruining" him, to be honest. Ashfur was always quite outspoken and a tad rude, even in TPB (he did refer to BloodClan as kittypets because of their collars when he was an apprentice), before the love drama with BrambleSquirrel and was on another level afterwards. Perhaps they did turn it up a notch in GV to make it line up more with his villain era later on, but it does fit. As for him talking back to older warriors and his mentor Dustpelt even as an apprentice, while we don't see it/didn't see before GV, doesn't mean it never could've happened, even if it did not on-screen or off-screen and only got added later so as to fit better with his vibe after Squirrelflight rejected him. He was not really that important or even developed of a character outside his relationship with Cloudtail and his mother Brindleface's death back then, after all. Ashfur only became more important/focused on when he got chosen as Squirrelflight's third love interest, part of the love triangle between her and Brambleclaw and then as a villain. There is the fact that he got randomly chosen as Squirrelflight's love interest and thus later on villain though, according to Vicky Holmes who "doesn't believe Ashfur was chosen as the cat who loved Squirrelflight for any specific reason" according to some trivia on his wiki page.
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Post by iceheart on Jan 29, 2024 13:28:17 GMT -5
Absolutely. The thing about Ashfur was that he seemed so normal, and that was *good,* because it made sense for all the rage and anger he'd been harboring to finally spill out. GV was just the editing team trying to retcon of "oh look, he's always been bad, please ignore his behavior in FQ and early books of TNP." He didn't frequently argue with the warriors as an apprentice, Firestar even notes how he and the others are placid compared to Cloudtail always questioning authority, and he was even noted to be friends with Brambleclaw in FQ. It's again just another instance of the editors trying to retcon things they didn't write so it matches up with what they DID write.
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Post by Jaysnow on Jan 29, 2024 13:53:25 GMT -5
To an extent, yes. Ashfur was always an outspoken guy but they made it worse to make his villainy more "believable" or valid, I suppose.
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Post by Hollyfall on Jan 29, 2024 14:05:36 GMT -5
Not really. Leafpool herself says Ashfur was always an outspoken cat and Ashfur had the bare minimum regarding his character when he appeared in early books, so there's practically nothing to retcon or ruin. All GV does is bring his character in line with his character once it developed retroactively while still keeping it consistent with his portrayal in FQ and TNP. It was perhaps a bit on the nose regarding his characterization and a little more prominent than he probably should have, but it's not like his appearances in both earlier and later books are mutually exclusive to one another. He's still obviously close with Brambleclaw and Cloudtail and the xenophobic remarks about kittypets, for example.
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Post by Jaysnow on Jan 29, 2024 14:07:23 GMT -5
Not really. Leafpool herself says Ashfur was always an outspoken cat and Ashfur had the bare minimum regarding his character when he appeared in early books, so there's practically nothing to retcon or ruin. All GV does is bring his character in line with his character once it developed retroactively while still keeping it consistent with his portrayal in FQ and TNP. It was perhaps a bit on the nose regarding his characterization and a little more prominent than he probably should have, but it's not like his appearances in both earlier and later books are mutually exclusive to one another. He's still obviously close with Brambleclaw and Cloudtail and the xenophobic remarks about kittypets, for example. I say to an extent only because they exaggerated it a bit. But you're totally correct.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 29, 2024 16:15:59 GMT -5
He didn’t really have much of a character to ruin, tbh. But I agree that the characterization in GV felt like they were retroactively trying to show Ashfur to have always been a cruel and nasty personality, which was not the vibe he had historically. He was just average background cat #7, a bit outspoken like Dustpelt but not depicted negatively at all until the Squilf rejection sent him off. The GV characterization felt way too obvious and forced, imo.
It’s not the end of the world, but trying to convince us retroactively that Ashfur was always this way was like the least interesting thing they could have done with him as a background cat in GV.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 29, 2024 16:26:23 GMT -5
Ashfur was always quite outspoken and a tad rude, even in TPB (he did refer to BloodClan as kittypets because of their collars when he was an apprentice), I’ve seen this example given a few times, but honestly, I don’t agree that that scene is proof that Ashfur was always a nastily xenophobic character. If Tigerstar, feared forest tyrant, suddenly had a bunch of cats wearing collars emerge from the woods, I would also probably initially confuse them for kittypets (up until then, the only cats any clan member knew to wear collars), and probably feel indignant/disbelieving that Tigerstar was threatening my home with kittypets. I always read that scene as an example of Ashpaw’s inexperience at the time for not realizing there was more to the situation than it seems at first glance, and also him being outspoken. But not him having a deep seated hatred for kittypets.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jan 29, 2024 20:28:42 GMT -5
Ashfur was always quite outspoken and a tad rude, even in TPB (he did refer to BloodClan as kittypets because of their collars when he was an apprentice), I’ve seen this example given a few times, but honestly, I don’t agree that that scene is proof that Ashfur was always a nastily xenophobic character. If Tigerstar, feared forest tyrant, suddenly had a bunch of cats wearing collars emerge from the woods, I would also probably initially confuse them for kittypets (up until then, the only cats any clan member knew to wear collars), and probably feel indignant/disbelieving that Tigerstar was threatening my home with kittypets. I always read that scene as an example of Ashpaw’s inexperience at the time for not realizing there was more to the situation than it seems at first glance, and also him being outspoken. But not him having a deep seated hatred for kittypets. I don't think it's a very extreme scene but it's notable that the immediate line following this has Dustpelt solemnly point out that they know nothing about these cats and he needs to keep quiet and actually assess them. Ashfur is just an apprentice of course, but he does come off as foolish and impetuous compared to Dustpelt in that scene. In isolation it wouldn't be so bad, but the immediate rebuke from a guy who is already well-known for being kind of a jerk doesn't really make him look good. It's not the worst either, of course, but I would say it helps to craft an image of Ashfur as certainly not standing out positively either.
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#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Jan 29, 2024 20:58:43 GMT -5
If I remember right, there wasn't much to Ashfur before the whole love triangle and becoming a villain. I do think that his characterization in Graystripe's Vow was over the top. It felt like a retcon.
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Post by Hollyfall on Jan 29, 2024 21:26:01 GMT -5
Not really. Leafpool herself says Ashfur was always an outspoken cat and Ashfur had the bare minimum regarding his character when he appeared in early books, so there's practically nothing to retcon or ruin. All GV does is bring his character in line with his character once it developed retroactively while still keeping it consistent with his portrayal in FQ and TNP. It was perhaps a bit on the nose regarding his characterization and a little more prominent than he probably should have, but it's not like his appearances in both earlier and later books are mutually exclusive to one another. He's still obviously close with Brambleclaw and Cloudtail and the xenophobic remarks about kittypets, for example. I say to an extent only because they exaggerated it a bit. But you're totally correct. For sure. Exaggerated and definitely could have been focused on less, but, at least to me, it felt like establishing that the less desirable traits of Ashfur's were always present. Was Ashfur a jerk in GV? Yeah, but he's not evil yet. It's not like the traits Ashfur did have (being an overall well-intentioned guy who runs his mouth and friends with Bramble/Cloud) were removed anyway. tl;dr, not a retcon because there's basically nothing to retcon. Could have been been toned down though
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 29, 2024 22:30:38 GMT -5
I’ve seen this example given a few times, but honestly, I don’t agree that that scene is proof that Ashfur was always a nastily xenophobic character. If Tigerstar, feared forest tyrant, suddenly had a bunch of cats wearing collars emerge from the woods, I would also probably initially confuse them for kittypets (up until then, the only cats any clan member knew to wear collars), and probably feel indignant/disbelieving that Tigerstar was threatening my home with kittypets. I always read that scene as an example of Ashpaw’s inexperience at the time for not realizing there was more to the situation than it seems at first glance, and also him being outspoken. But not him having a deep seated hatred for kittypets. I don't think it's a very extreme scene but it's notable that the immediate line following this has Dustpelt solemnly point out that they know nothing about these cats and he needs to keep quiet and actually assess them. Ashfur is just an apprentice of course, but he does come off as foolish and impetuous compared to Dustpelt in that scene. In isolation it wouldn't be so bad, but the immediate rebuke from a guy who is already well-known for being kind of a jerk doesn't really make him look good. It's not the worst either, of course, but I would say it helps to craft an image of Ashfur as certainly not standing out positively either. Eh. He's a young apprentice who has never faced battle. Of course he's going to come off as foolish compared to his grown mentor, who (unlike Ashpaw) has been an experienced warrior for multiple seasons and knows better than to underestimate an opponent, and whose whole job is to critique his apprentice. Comparing the two as evidence seems like a pretty weak argument. Idk man, I don't think it paints him any more particularly negative than any other time an apprentice makes a dumb comment, which happens quite frequently throughout the series. If it was any other apprentice who said that, I don't think people would be attributing so much to it beyond "apprentice says something dumb".
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Post by vectoring34 on Jan 29, 2024 22:44:34 GMT -5
I don't think it's a very extreme scene but it's notable that the immediate line following this has Dustpelt solemnly point out that they know nothing about these cats and he needs to keep quiet and actually assess them. Ashfur is just an apprentice of course, but he does come off as foolish and impetuous compared to Dustpelt in that scene. In isolation it wouldn't be so bad, but the immediate rebuke from a guy who is already well-known for being kind of a jerk doesn't really make him look good. It's not the worst either, of course, but I would say it helps to craft an image of Ashfur as certainly not standing out positively either. Eh. He's a young apprentice who has never faced battle. Of course he's going to come off as foolish compared to his grown mentor, who (unlike Ashpaw) has been an experienced warrior for multiple seasons and knows better than to underestimate an opponent, and whose whole job is to critique his apprentice. Comparing the two as evidence seems like a pretty weak argument. Idk man, I don't think it paints him any more particularly negative than any other time an apprentice makes a dumb comment, which happens quite frequently throughout the series. If it was any other apprentice who said that, I don't think people would be attributing so much to it beyond "apprentice says something dumb". I don't think it's a big deal, but it doesn't paint him as exceptionally good or unlikely to be bad later in life either. Which is the issue at hand here. The idea that Ashfur's behavior in GV is a retcon relies on him being unlikely to develop into that as he ages, which there isn't much evidence for in TPB.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jan 29, 2024 23:34:01 GMT -5
Like other people have said, I personally don't think so. He already had a bit of an attitude towards kittypets even in early TNP (being quick to agree that Cloudtail and Brightheart left to become kittypets), and considering Graystripe was made deputy immediately after his own father Whitestorm was killed—not long after returning to the Clan due to being exiled from RiverClan at that—piled onto the fact that Firestar, Sandstorm, Graystripe, and Cinderpelt all refused to reveal the exact details for the former two leaving, his (and the rest of ThunderClan's, for that matter) antagonism towards Graystripe never really seemed that off-putting to me. Exaggerated, maybe, but not necessarily off-putting. Dustpelt had also been his mentor and only recently became the father of his sister's new kits, so there's bound to be a sense of loyalty there, however misguided it was.
He was also a pretty young cat at the time and was a hero both times when he was only an apprentice (the dog run and piling on Bone), so it doesn't surprise me that he might've gained a bit of an ego that simply softened for the most part by the time TNP takes place. And while his behavior was clearly written in connection to his later role as a villain, I see the Then chapters of GV as more of a bridge than anything.
Also, these books are planned about two years in advance and the book is split between past and present, with the first few chapters overlapping with DW. These books may not be great with consistency, but they almost definitely would've known Ashfur was going to be the main villain of TBC by that point, especially when he would've been the only one to have made sense, given the impostor's behavior prior to the reveal.
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maggotpaw
named my son maggotkit because i hate him
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Post by maggotpaw on Jan 29, 2024 23:43:55 GMT -5
One Ashpaw moment that stands out to me is this section in A Dangerous Path that I don’t see mentioned much - but I could be reading into it too much. In Chapter 13, Fireheart instructs Ashpaw to let Ravenpaw into camp. Ashpaw indicates he knows who Ravenpaw is, and agrees to follow Fireheart’s request. Ravenpaw arrives in Chapter 14, and Ashpaw challenges (it’s a shame we don’t hear Ashpaw’s actual dialogue) him, despite Fireheart instructing him to bring Ravenpaw to Bluestar. Even if we don’t get to see it, I could buy that Ashpaw frequently challenged and questioned Dustpelt.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Jan 30, 2024 5:39:25 GMT -5
Ashfur was always quite outspoken and a tad rude, even in TPB (he did refer to BloodClan as kittypets because of their collars when he was an apprentice), I’ve seen this example given a few times, but honestly, I don’t agree that that scene is proof that Ashfur was always a nastily xenophobic character. If Tigerstar, feared forest tyrant, suddenly had a bunch of cats wearing collars emerge from the woods, I would also probably initially confuse them for kittypets (up until then, the only cats any clan member knew to wear collars), and probably feel indignant/disbelieving that Tigerstar was threatening my home with kittypets. I always read that scene as an example of Ashpaw’s inexperience at the time for not realizing there was more to the situation than it seems at first glance, and also him being outspoken. But not him having a deep seated hatred for kittypets. I mean, I didn't write this example as the ultimate proof that Ashfur was always xenophobic or something, even as an apprentice. I wrote "outspoken/a tad rude". Not exactly sure where you saw me mention xenophobia unless you meant that others use this specific example to prove he always was that way.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 30, 2024 9:44:22 GMT -5
Eh. He's a young apprentice who has never faced battle. Of course he's going to come off as foolish compared to his grown mentor, who (unlike Ashpaw) has been an experienced warrior for multiple seasons and knows better than to underestimate an opponent, and whose whole job is to critique his apprentice. Comparing the two as evidence seems like a pretty weak argument. Idk man, I don't think it paints him any more particularly negative than any other time an apprentice makes a dumb comment, which happens quite frequently throughout the series. If it was any other apprentice who said that, I don't think people would be attributing so much to it beyond "apprentice says something dumb". I don't think it's a big deal, but it doesn't paint him as exceptionally good or unlikely to be bad later in life either. Which is the issue at hand here. The idea that Ashfur's behavior in GV is a retcon relies on him being unlikely to develop into that as he ages, which there isn't much evidence for in TPB. I agree it’s not a retcon, per se, but besides this I can’t really think of a particularly negative thing Ashfur did in TPB. He was an unimportant background character but generally characterized positively in the few interactions we did see. Which is why it’s not really a retcon that they changed it, since he barely existed. My main point in this comment chain is that I don’t agree that this one particular moment somehow proves Ashfur was always like this in the writing, given it’s one comment that’s not out of the ordinary for an inexperienced apprentice. Using it as evidence imo is a big stretch.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 30, 2024 9:48:48 GMT -5
I’ve seen this example given a few times, but honestly, I don’t agree that that scene is proof that Ashfur was always a nastily xenophobic character. If Tigerstar, feared forest tyrant, suddenly had a bunch of cats wearing collars emerge from the woods, I would also probably initially confuse them for kittypets (up until then, the only cats any clan member knew to wear collars), and probably feel indignant/disbelieving that Tigerstar was threatening my home with kittypets. I always read that scene as an example of Ashpaw’s inexperience at the time for not realizing there was more to the situation than it seems at first glance, and also him being outspoken. But not him having a deep seated hatred for kittypets. I mean, I didn't write this example as the ultimate proof that Ashfur was always xenophobic or something, even as an apprentice. I wrote "outspoken/a tad rude". Not exactly sure where you saw me mention xenophobia unless you meant that others use this specific example to prove he always was that way. You are correct that your comment did not specifically say he was xenophobic for the comment. My reply was a general reply to frequent arguments made about that scene; specifically, when it is treated as somehow notable or as evidence of characterization, which I disagree with.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 30, 2024 10:03:27 GMT -5
One Ashpaw moment that stands out to me is this section in A Dangerous Path that I don’t see mentioned much - but I could be reading into it too much. In Chapter 13, Fireheart instructs Ashpaw to let Ravenpaw into camp. Ashpaw indicates he knows who Ravenpaw is, and agrees to follow Fireheart’s request. Ravenpaw arrives in Chapter 14, and Ashpaw challenges (it’s a shame we don’t hear Ashpaw’s actual dialogue) him, despite Fireheart instructing him to bring Ravenpaw to Bluestar. Even if we don’t get to see it, I could buy that Ashpaw frequently challenged and questioned Dustpelt. This … definitely seems like a stretch. The word “challenge” has an alternate definition meaning “to order to halt and prove identity”, especially in the context of guards or sentries. Pretty sure here, it means that Ashpaw was asking something like “who’s there?”, a very reasonable thing to ask if you hear/see a cat approaching at night and you can’t tell who they are at first (and it’s not someone you’re terribly familiar with). It’s also literally in the code to “challenge all trespassing cats”. If anything, this scene proves the opposite of your conclusion that Ashpaw was a character that frequently questioned/confronted others, given that he is specifically noted in this scene to be politely restraining himself from questioning Fireheart for his weird orders. (I personally don’t think it really characterizes him much at all, but if we are going to over analyze his scenes…)
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maggotpaw
named my son maggotkit because i hate him
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Post by maggotpaw on Jan 30, 2024 15:24:22 GMT -5
One Ashpaw moment that stands out to me is this section in A Dangerous Path that I don’t see mentioned much - but I could be reading into it too much. In Chapter 13, Fireheart instructs Ashpaw to let Ravenpaw into camp. Ashpaw indicates he knows who Ravenpaw is, and agrees to follow Fireheart’s request. Ravenpaw arrives in Chapter 14, and Ashpaw challenges (it’s a shame we don’t hear Ashpaw’s actual dialogue) him, despite Fireheart instructing him to bring Ravenpaw to Bluestar. Even if we don’t get to see it, I could buy that Ashpaw frequently challenged and questioned Dustpelt. This … definitely seems like a stretch. The word “challenge” has an alternate definition meaning “to order to halt and prove identity”, especially in the context of guards or sentries. Pretty sure here, it means that Ashpaw was asking something like “who’s there?”, a very reasonable thing to ask if you hear/see a cat approaching at night and you can’t tell who they are at first (and it’s not someone you’re terribly familiar with). It’s also literally in the code to “challenge all trespassing cats”. If anything, this scene proves the opposite of your conclusion that Ashpaw was a character that frequently questioned/confronted others, given that he is specifically noted in this scene to be politely restraining himself from questioning Fireheart for his weird orders. (I personally don’t think it really characterizes him much at all, but if we are going to over analyze his scenes…)
That’s a fair alternate interpretation. I think I’d agree more if Ashpaw hadn’t nodded when Fireheart asked him if he knew who Ravenpaw was, and was challenging this random cat that showed up outside of ThunderClan’s camp as the code instructs him to. The scene’s a little off as Fireheart spends it fretting over when/if Ravenpaw will arrive, and immediately jumps in instead of waiting to see if Ashpaw will follow the instructions he gave. The issue is any time Ashpaw appears, with the exception of him and Fernpaw asking Fireheart if they can help lead the dog pack to the gorge, or the scene where Ashpaw asks Fireheart if he knows where Cloudpaw is… he easily could’ve been replaced with any -paw, and I wouldn’t really question it. CTRL+H Ashpaw with Thornpaw and it’d still make sense. The characterization of the very minor, late TPB apprentices wasn’t something the writers put much care into. I just wanted to bring up a moment from the earlier books besides his oft-mentioned comment about BloodClan being kittypets. Overall, I’m more satisfied when I rationalize Dustpelt’s comment about Ashfur being a difficult apprentice by simply remembering that Dustpelt’s a pretty impatient guy, and probably would’ve preferred to be Fernpaw’s mentor in the first place.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 30, 2024 21:16:31 GMT -5
That’s a fair alternate interpretation. I think I’d agree more if Ashpaw hadn’t nodded when Fireheart asked him if he knew who Ravenpaw was, and was challenging this random cat that showed up outside of ThunderClan’s camp as the code instructs him to. The scene’s a little off as Fireheart spends it fretting over when/if Ravenpaw will arrive, and immediately jumps in instead of waiting to see if Ashpaw will follow the instructions he gave. I would again point out, it was night time, and just because Ashpaw knew who Ravenpaw was doesn't mean that he would recognize him in the dark. In fact, although Ashpaw might know who Ravenpaw was from stories, he likely had never met him since Ravenpaw went into hiding when he was born and at least through the end of FOS. But again, that assumes he clearly saw Ravenpaw. It's quite likely that he just saw a cat figure heading toward the camp in the dark or heard pawsteps, and even if you've been told to expect an ally, checking the cat's identity instead of just assuming it's a friend is the smarter thing to do. I just don't think this scene says anything about Ashpaw other than he was a normal sentry.
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