Aroace
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Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Oct 22, 2023 12:33:22 GMT -5
Sunnyfall released a video about this topic yesterday. Of course, I know this has already been discussed plenty on the forums and that there have been multiple threads about it in the past as well.
My personal opinion on characters being born evil, which in the Warriors series specifically would be Brokenstar, Tigerstar I and Darktail in terms of confirmed "bad since birth cats", is ultimately a lazy way to portay/characterize villains and their backstories, in my opinion. Because to me, no one is born evil or evil from the start, and it's instead dependend on their choices and actions throughout their lives that determine wether or not they are evil or villainous.
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Post by Moonblazer on Oct 22, 2023 12:46:56 GMT -5
I think the only cat I’d be fine with being born evil is Brokenstar, as a manifestation of the Dark Forest’s darkness itself. He was just obscenely evil and dark from the earliest moment, and I don’t think anything would have changed that, whether he had a gentle family life, no Lizardstripe, etc. That’s the only case though. Tigerstar 1 and Darktail, I can see them being very different had their fathers been present.
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Post by User33 on Oct 22, 2023 14:06:30 GMT -5
I think the only cat I’d be fine with being born evil is Brokenstar, as a manifestation of the Dark Forest’s darkness itself. He was just obscenely evil and dark from the earliest moment, and I don’t think anything would have changed that, whether he had a gentle family life, no Lizardstripe, etc. That’s the only case though. Tigerstar 1 and Darktail, I can see them being very different had their fathers been present. Yeah agreed. Brokenstar should be the only cat in the warriors series to ever be pure evil and evil since birth. Unless the erins get a funny idea in their heads and make a Brokenstar 2.0
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Post by nowarriornameshere on Oct 22, 2023 15:14:38 GMT -5
I think it can be done decently, it just tends not to be.
Brokenstar was literally forecasted as a punishment to the Clans and was portrayed as malevolent since Day 1. Redemption could have been possible for him, depending on the circumstances, but he was just born flat out evil. I think he is a pretty decent example.
Darktail is very much a different story. There is plenty of reason to believe that he could have been raised good if he actually had his father active in his life and his mother didn't spend his childhood poisoning him with vengeful stories. We literally just get the "there was no salvation for him, he was born evil" **** and bull story in Onestar's Super Edition to downplay Onestar's blameworthiness in the story and make him look like he's truly the hero fighting the evil that came from him that he couldn't have changed, rather than a father who did wrong and now has to take responsibility for his failure.
Tigerclaw, we straight up saw as a fun little guy in Bluestar's SE, there's no way he was born evil. Doubly so when you consider the fact that his worst tendencies only seem to have come up in apprenticeship, which is well after verified asshole Thistleclaw got his paws on him. But also I don't remember anything claiming that he was born evil, only that he was forecasted to become a monster. Goosefeather hated his guts, but I don't think his reaction was treating him as a character that was born evil from the get-go, just that he could sense that something terrible was in his future.
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Aroace
ᦓρ꠸ᥴꫀᠻꪖꪀᧁ
“Do you remember…the 21st night of September?”
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Post by ᦓρ꠸ᥴꫀᠻꪖꪀᧁ on Oct 22, 2023 18:19:06 GMT -5
I think the only cat I’d be fine with being born evil is Brokenstar, as a manifestation of the Dark Forest’s darkness itself. He was just obscenely evil and dark from the earliest moment, and I don’t think anything would have changed that, whether he had a gentle family life, no Lizardstripe, etc. That’s the only case though. Tigerstar 1 and Darktail, I can see them being very different had their fathers been present. I 100% agree. Tigerstar had Thistleclaw and his ambitions to fuel his evilness, and Darktail was basically ordered by his mother to destroy the clans. Brokenstar being born evil could stay because it really follow Yellowfang’s words, that her curse wasn’t Hopekit and Wishkit dying, but that Brokenkit was the one who survived.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Oct 22, 2023 18:46:04 GMT -5
-snip- Tigerclaw, we straight up saw as a fun little guy in Bluestar's SE, there's no way he was born evil. Doubly so when you consider the fact that his worst tendencies only seem to have come up in apprenticeship, which is well after verified asshole Thistleclaw got his paws on him. But also I don't remember anything claiming that he was born evil, only that he was forecasted to become a monster. Goosefeather hated his guts, but I don't think his reaction was treating him as a character that was born evil from the get-go, just that he could sense that something terrible was in his future. I mean, StarClan and Goosefeather telling Pinestar to kill Tigerclaw/star as a kit due him "becoming dangerous to the forest in the future" does imply that they saw him as already evil or at least a hopeless case since birth and had just accepted that killing him as a kit was the only and right way to deal with him in Pinestar's Choice. Instead of, I don't know, telling Sunstar to not make Thistleclaw his mentor or giving him a new father figure after Pinestar left ThunderClan to become a kittypet. It does feel like StarClan just gave up on Tigerkit instead of at least trying to steer him away from the dark path they had already prophecised for him. I just feel like, if StarClan knew that Tigerstar's future would be dark and even went so far as to order his own father to murder him as a kit, then the least they could've done to try and prevent it from happening is by sending Sunstar a dream about not making Thistleclaw his mentor under any circumstances. And yeah, I know StarClan always says that they don't want to intervene too much in Clan matters. But I'd argue that insisting that a father kill his own son as a kit counts as a pretty big interference on their part.
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Post by dahliadove - #1 nightpelt fan on Oct 23, 2023 4:08:16 GMT -5
I don't believe the Erins use this concept at all. They claim they do, but if you pay attention to the characters they use this trope for, it's obvious that these cats just became evil because of outside forces that influenced them. Except maybe cats we don't have enough details on.
Tigerone? Thistleclaw, the Dark Forest, Pinestar leaving
Brokenstar? While he was showing signs of aggression at early ages, I truly believe that was just him being kinda mean and not him being evil. His influences would've been Lizardstripe, Foxheart, pretty much all of ShadowClan abusing him, also his father's terrible parenting and the absence of a mother in his life
Darktail? This one's obvious. Smoke literally said she'd raise Darktail to despise the Clans and she'd make Onestar pay if he abandoned her. Alongside an absence of a father figure in his life, Darktail had a mother figure who was actively fuelling his aggression towards his eventual victims. He was dealt a pretty bad hand when he was born.
Hawkfrost? His dad. That's literally all I have to say. His dad is Tigerone, bro.
Mapleshade? We have no details on her younger life, but pretty much all her trauma contributed to her doing the stuff she did. Not that it was ever okay.
Breezepelt? Not a villain anymore, but his family life is what influenced him to be how he was - abusive father and arguing parents, it's clear that he craved anything remotely close to a familial connection, and the Dark Forest sought him out as an easily manipulated cat with growing aggression to the people around him. I headcanon that the reason he stayed for so long is due to him seeing his Dark Forest mentors as father figures because of Crowfeather's absence in his life (and even when he was present, his evident abuse).
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Post by vectoring34 on Oct 23, 2023 9:37:34 GMT -5
-snip- Tigerclaw, we straight up saw as a fun little guy in Bluestar's SE, there's no way he was born evil. Doubly so when you consider the fact that his worst tendencies only seem to have come up in apprenticeship, which is well after verified asshole Thistleclaw got his paws on him. But also I don't remember anything claiming that he was born evil, only that he was forecasted to become a monster. Goosefeather hated his guts, but I don't think his reaction was treating him as a character that was born evil from the get-go, just that he could sense that something terrible was in his future. I mean, StarClan and Goosefeather telling Pinestar to kill Tigerclaw/star as a kit due him "becoming dangerous to the forest in the future" does imply that they saw him as already evil or at least a hopeless case since birth and had just accepted that killing him as a kit was the only and right way to deal with him in Pinestar's Choice. Instead of, I don't know, telling Sunstar to not make Thistleclaw his mentor or giving him a new father figure after Pinestar left ThunderClan to become a kittypet. It does feel like StarClan just gave up on Tigerkit instead of at least trying to steer him away from the dark path they had already prophecised for him. I just feel like, if StarClan knew that Tigerstar's future would be dark and even went so far as to order his own father to murder him as a kit, then the least they could've done to try and prevent it from happening is by sending Sunstar a dream about not making Thistleclaw his mentor under any circumstances. And yeah, I know StarClan always says that they don't want to intervene too much in Clan matters. But I'd argue that insisting that a father kill his own son as a kit counts as a pretty big interference on their part. Starclan literally did tell Pinestar that he needed to raise his kits properly with Doestar warning him that while one of his kits MIGHT destroy the clans, he could be raised well too. Either there was a difference of opinion in Starclan, the second vision wasn't a real vision, or else by the time of the second vision the future had already changed to the point that they knew Pinestar wouldn't be able to raise Tigerkit properly.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Oct 23, 2023 10:13:58 GMT -5
I mean, StarClan and Goosefeather telling Pinestar to kill Tigerclaw/star as a kit due him "becoming dangerous to the forest in the future" does imply that they saw him as already evil or at least a hopeless case since birth and had just accepted that killing him as a kit was the only and right way to deal with him in Pinestar's Choice. Instead of, I don't know, telling Sunstar to not make Thistleclaw his mentor or giving him a new father figure after Pinestar left ThunderClan to become a kittypet. It does feel like StarClan just gave up on Tigerkit instead of at least trying to steer him away from the dark path they had already prophecised for him. I just feel like, if StarClan knew that Tigerstar's future would be dark and even went so far as to order his own father to murder him as a kit, then the least they could've done to try and prevent it from happening is by sending Sunstar a dream about not making Thistleclaw his mentor under any circumstances. And yeah, I know StarClan always says that they don't want to intervene too much in Clan matters. But I'd argue that insisting that a father kill his own son as a kit counts as a pretty big interference on their part. Starclan literally did tell Pinestar that he needed to raise his kits properly with Doestar warning him that while one of his kits MIGHT destroy the clans, he could be raised well too. Either there was a difference of opinion in Starclan, the second vision wasn't a real vision, or else by the time of the second vision the future had already changed to the point that they knew Pinestar wouldn't be able to raise Tigerkit properly. Still doesn't change the fact that StarClan (and Goosefeather) also did tell Pinestar to kill Tigerkit because of his future later on though. Either way, I think that StarClan gave up on Tigerkit and labeled him as a lost cause but they could've still tried to help him and possibly prevent certain things from happening if they had just chosen to do so. Also, I'm pretty sure we had a discussion about wether or not Pinestar's second vision was real or not in the past on a different thread and agreed to disagree on that back then, so I'd rather not get into that again, to be honest. Since I think it was real and you think it was just a dream and that Goosefeather might've been wrong about it as well, if I remember correctly.
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Asexual
#A3E4D7
Name Colour
🍄🎶✨Brambleheart✨🎶🍄
rdj as doctor doom was not on my bingo card
Pronouns: She/her, they/them
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Post by 🍄🎶✨Brambleheart✨🎶🍄 on Oct 23, 2023 10:28:46 GMT -5
I think the only cat I’d be fine with being born evil is Brokenstar, as a manifestation of the Dark Forest’s darkness itself. He was just obscenely evil and dark from the earliest moment, and I don’t think anything would have changed that, whether he had a gentle family life, no Lizardstripe, etc. That’s the only case though. Tigerstar 1 and Darktail, I can see them being very different had their fathers been present. Agreed. I personally like Akira's theory that Brokenstar was meant to be a punishment from StarClan (she says that it's for driving SkyClan out, which could be the reason, or something else entirely). If he is the amalgamation of StarClan's punishment, it makes sense he was born with 100% evil capacity. His life didn't help, although StarClan could have made sure he lived the life he did to ensure evilness.
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Post by Quill on Oct 23, 2023 15:29:37 GMT -5
I don't mind it being done occasionally. There's something extra terrifying about the idea that no matter how good of a childhood someone has, they can still turn out to be evil.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Oct 23, 2023 22:42:34 GMT -5
I think the only cat I’d be fine with being born evil is Brokenstar, as a manifestation of the Dark Forest’s darkness itself. He was just obscenely evil and dark from the earliest moment, and I don’t think anything would have changed that, whether he had a gentle family life, no Lizardstripe, etc. That’s the only case though. Tigerstar 1 and Darktail, I can see them being very different had their fathers been present. Agreed. I personally like Akira's theory that Brokenstar was meant to be a punishment from StarClan (she says that it's for driving SkyClan out, which could be the reason, or something else entirely). If he is the amalgamation of StarClan's punishment, it makes sense he was born with 100% evil capacity. His life didn't help, although StarClan could have made sure he lived the life he did to ensure evilness. I believe that’s actually either canon or a theory posited by the Erins, not something Akira came up with
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#a3c5e6
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𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Oct 23, 2023 22:45:58 GMT -5
Oh, yeah, I think I saw this video the day it came out.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Oct 23, 2023 22:50:15 GMT -5
I think the only cat I’d be fine with being born evil is Brokenstar, as a manifestation of the Dark Forest’s darkness itself. He was just obscenely evil and dark from the earliest moment, and I don’t think anything would have changed that, whether he had a gentle family life, no Lizardstripe, etc. That’s the only case though. Tigerstar 1 and Darktail, I can see them being very different had their fathers been present. Agreed. I personally like Akira's theory that Brokenstar was meant to be a punishment from StarClan (she says that it's for driving SkyClan out, which could be the reason, or something else entirely). If he is the amalgamation of StarClan's punishment, it makes sense he was born with 100% evil capacity. His life didn't help, although StarClan could have made sure he lived the life he did to ensure evilness. It's not a theory, though, it's something that was literally stated way back in Yellowfang's Secret.
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Post by nowarriornameshere on Oct 24, 2023 7:10:40 GMT -5
-snip- Tigerclaw, we straight up saw as a fun little guy in Bluestar's SE, there's no way he was born evil. Doubly so when you consider the fact that his worst tendencies only seem to have come up in apprenticeship, which is well after verified asshole Thistleclaw got his paws on him. But also I don't remember anything claiming that he was born evil, only that he was forecasted to become a monster. Goosefeather hated his guts, but I don't think his reaction was treating him as a character that was born evil from the get-go, just that he could sense that something terrible was in his future. I mean, StarClan and Goosefeather telling Pinestar to kill Tigerclaw/star as a kit due him "becoming dangerous to the forest in the future" does imply that they saw him as already evil or at least a hopeless case since birth and had just accepted that killing him as a kit was the only and right way to deal with him in Pinestar's Choice. Instead of, I don't know, telling Sunstar to not make Thistleclaw his mentor or giving him a new father figure after Pinestar left ThunderClan to become a kittypet. It does feel like StarClan just gave up on Tigerkit instead of at least trying to steer him away from the dark path they had already prophecised for him. I just feel like, if StarClan knew that Tigerstar's future would be dark and even went so far as to order his own father to murder him as a kit, then the least they could've done to try and prevent it from happening is by sending Sunstar a dream about not making Thistleclaw his mentor under any circumstances. And yeah, I know StarClan always says that they don't want to intervene too much in Clan matters. But I'd argue that insisting that a father kill his own son as a kit counts as a pretty big interference on their part. I think there's a pretty meaningful difference between "born evil" and "destined to become evil", is the thing. If we speak of evil as, say, an illness, it would be like saying "Brokenstar was born sick, Tigerstar was born healthy but set to become sick".
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Post by vectoring34 on Oct 24, 2023 9:19:31 GMT -5
I mean, StarClan and Goosefeather telling Pinestar to kill Tigerclaw/star as a kit due him "becoming dangerous to the forest in the future" does imply that they saw him as already evil or at least a hopeless case since birth and had just accepted that killing him as a kit was the only and right way to deal with him in Pinestar's Choice. Instead of, I don't know, telling Sunstar to not make Thistleclaw his mentor or giving him a new father figure after Pinestar left ThunderClan to become a kittypet. It does feel like StarClan just gave up on Tigerkit instead of at least trying to steer him away from the dark path they had already prophecised for him. I just feel like, if StarClan knew that Tigerstar's future would be dark and even went so far as to order his own father to murder him as a kit, then the least they could've done to try and prevent it from happening is by sending Sunstar a dream about not making Thistleclaw his mentor under any circumstances. And yeah, I know StarClan always says that they don't want to intervene too much in Clan matters. But I'd argue that insisting that a father kill his own son as a kit counts as a pretty big interference on their part. I think there's a pretty meaningful difference between "born evil" and "destined to become evil", is the thing. If we speak of evil as, say, an illness, it would be like saying "Brokenstar was born sick, Tigerstar was born healthy but set to become sick". Right, my impression of Tigerstar is that because of Pinestar's actions, there would be a cascading effect that set things in motion for him to become evil and in that sense he is destined for it. But it was not inevitable had someone at some point stepped in the way of that. The problem is that the only one who got a warning was Pinestar and Goosefeather, both of whom did nothing about it (not saying Pinestar should have killed him but he should have listened to Doestar).
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Oct 24, 2023 9:55:12 GMT -5
I think the distinction between “born evil” and “fated to be evil” is an important one. The former is hard to do well, while the latter is a tragedy (theoretically, it could be prevented, but it was always going to end like that).
I always interpreted Brokenstar as being a cat who might have been born predisposed toward anti-social tendencies, but it was irreversibly cemented by his upbringing. The circumstances were just right for brewing the perfect storm with him, and in that sense he was always destined to wreck horror.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Oct 25, 2023 1:29:24 GMT -5
I mean, StarClan and Goosefeather telling Pinestar to kill Tigerclaw/star as a kit due him "becoming dangerous to the forest in the future" does imply that they saw him as already evil or at least a hopeless case since birth and had just accepted that killing him as a kit was the only and right way to deal with him in Pinestar's Choice. Instead of, I don't know, telling Sunstar to not make Thistleclaw his mentor or giving him a new father figure after Pinestar left ThunderClan to become a kittypet. It does feel like StarClan just gave up on Tigerkit instead of at least trying to steer him away from the dark path they had already prophecised for him. I just feel like, if StarClan knew that Tigerstar's future would be dark and even went so far as to order his own father to murder him as a kit, then the least they could've done to try and prevent it from happening is by sending Sunstar a dream about not making Thistleclaw his mentor under any circumstances. And yeah, I know StarClan always says that they don't want to intervene too much in Clan matters. But I'd argue that insisting that a father kill his own son as a kit counts as a pretty big interference on their part. I think there's a pretty meaningful difference between "born evil" and "destined to become evil", is the thing. If we speak of evil as, say, an illness, it would be like saying "Brokenstar was born sick, Tigerstar was born healthy but set to become sick". True, yeah. But I do still think it becomes practically the same for both Brokenstar and Tigerstar in the end since the cats who knew about what they would become (or could become in Tigerstar's case) gave up on them imo. With Brokenstar, only Yellowfang really knew about it in terms of living cats and she at least tried to subtly watch over him but ultimately couldn't save him since it was "written in the stars" and due to him being raised by Lizardstripe, spoiled by Raggedstar and bullied by his Clanmates for not knowing his full parentage. But with Tigerstar, Pinestar was already distant and Goosefeather had just accepted it as fact rather than a possible fate from the start iirc. I personally definitely don't think that Tigerstar was born evil but even just the knowledge of what he could turn into made the cats who knew about it treat him differently (Goosefeather and Pinestar in terms of living cats and StarClan going from telling Pinestar to be there for him to trying to persuade him to murder his own son as a kit merely on the assumption that he'd turn out bad because it was foretold). Of course, Pinestar leaving him and his Clan behind to become a kittypet combined with Thistleclaw's training and disdain towards that way of living (based on him being an asshole in general and due to the encounter with Tiny/Scourge) left a huge impact on Tigerstar as we all know and played the biggest role in how he himself started to fit into the vision of his future that StarClan had already seen him as/in. Going a bit off-topic here but I always thought we got robbed of an actual confrontation scene between Pinestar and Tigerstar. He didn't even think once about him in his novella iirc and the only on-screen encounter they had when Tigerstar was an adult happened at his leadership ceremony when Pinestar was already dead. And it was way too brief anyways imo. Although he probably would've just killed him had he met him after getting exiled from ThunderClan and roamed around in the Twoleg place as a rogue. Though Pinestar could've likely already been dead at this point already since he was at Tigerstar's nine lives ceremony that didn't happen that long after his exile (a few moons at most, not sure how many though). Leopardfoot and the cats who didn't know about his potential future were really the only ones who treated Tigerstar right as a kit and apprentice (minus Thistleclaw, of course). Still hoping she'll somehow get a novella one day, if they ever bring those back. Sorry about rambling on about Tigerstar like that, by the way. I just have a lot of thoughts on him because he's still my favorite villain to this day <3
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Bisexual
#64C7FF
Name Colour
finland
Porgs are love
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Post by finland on Oct 25, 2023 8:48:07 GMT -5
I think the only cat I’d be fine with being born evil is Brokenstar, as a manifestation of the Dark Forest’s darkness itself. He was just obscenely evil and dark from the earliest moment, and I don’t think anything would have changed that, whether he had a gentle family life, no Lizardstripe, etc. That’s the only case though. Tigerstar 1 and Darktail, I can see them being very different had their fathers been present. I agree. I loved the idea of Darktail being evil because Smoke wanted him to me. Warriors needs more female villains.
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