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Post by Wolfyy- on Oct 21, 2023 9:44:15 GMT -5
Okay, after reading Sky and Shadow, I really don't think Tigerstar had any malicious intentions. I genuinely think he wanted to help, and his heart was in the right place. No one in ShadowClan showed ANY desire to take over RiverClan. RC obviously needed help and guidance, and Tigerstar was the only leader to actively take initiative and offer any sort of help. Yes, there was a brief battle, but Duskfur started it. No one was killed or seriously injured. He let RC run their camp with minimal intervention from his warriors. I can completely understand the other leaders' concerns, given the history between SC and RC, but I don't think Tigerstar has any intentions of making things worse. I think he could've gone about things better, but it became difficult to do so.
Just my thoughts. What do you think?
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Post by nowarriornameshere on Oct 21, 2023 10:50:26 GMT -5
I mean, I agree with you that he definitely had no malicious intentions and genuinely intends to step down once a solution is reached, but I would still say he was wrong to assume control of RiverClan. Now, what the RIGHT thing to do would have been, nobody knows. Succession crises are a tried and true recipe for disaster, especially with StarClan sitting on their asses and not doing their job to offer guidance. But the right thing was "definitely not that", especially not an armed takeover. I would say it would have been better if multiple Clans actually lent their support and warriors, to allow for a more even balance, but all parties included either simply didn't consider that option or ignored it.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Oct 21, 2023 11:15:42 GMT -5
Have you ever heard of the saying, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions? In Tigerstar's case, his don't really mean anything if he's willing to literally subjugate another Clan, never mind that it's implied he invaded at least in part due to Rowankit's death. A conqueror is a conqueror no matter what. He also isn't letting RiverClan run their camp, because he left Cloverfoot—his deputy—in charge alongside Icewing, a cat who—as far as the rest of RiverClan was concerned, at least—would have had every reason to side with him, given the fact that he sheltered her, Harelight, and Mothwing after Mistystar exiled them not too long ago, as well as the fact that he keeps sending his warriors there anyway; even at the very end of Shadow, he was still doing it. Tigerstar wasn't the only leader who tried to get involved, either. Fidgetflake later said he was going to call an emergency medicine cat meeting at the end of his visit, but Tigerstar then invaded before that could happen. An invasion that, might I add, happened at night, with an army large enough that the ShadowClan camp was even noted to be nearly empty when Nightheart got there. And Duskfur attacking first or the fact that no cat was killed hardly matters, because again, not only did Tigerstar do this at night, not only did he have nearly his entire Clan backing him up as a show of strength, but he also threatened RiverClan with death! He was clearly never going to take no for an answer, and even if we assume he was just bluffing, then that really only makes it worse!
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Post by brightheartt on Oct 21, 2023 13:34:34 GMT -5
If your intentions are truly noble you don’t turn up with all your warriors in the middle of the night and then start threatening to kill until you get your way, regardless of who started it. He literally gives Duskfur the chance to surrender or die as he’s pressing his claws into her throat enough for her to be bleeding.
This has always been a forceful occupation of RiverClan, it absolutely isn’t justified. At no point has RiverClan wanted this help. They accepted help from Leafstar, but then Tigerstar waltzed in before any further agreement could be reached after Fidgetflake’s aid ultimately failed.
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Post by Hollyfall on Oct 21, 2023 14:10:56 GMT -5
Even if we give Tigerstar the benefit of the doubt and say his means are well-intentioned, which I truthfully don't think are wholly evil, I still don't think it makes him literally beating RiverClan into submission and making them a vassal of ShadowClan while appointing his own puppet leaders to govern in his stead any better. There's comparisons to his namesake for a reason, whether Tigerstar II intends it or not. What baffles me is that he insists "it isn't a conquest" even though it's that in everything but name. Even when/if he makes good on his promise to pull out of RiverClan once their succession issues are solved, he's exactly the kind of guy to keep that "favour" in his back pocket and use it as leverage when he needs to.
Sure, he might be right in that RiverClan needs help, but he takes it upon himself to be their saviour and fix their problems. He could have corresponded with the other leaders and RiverClan to figure out a solution that everyone is satisified with. Tigerstar also broke the broke that says every Clan must help the one in need by forcibly seizing control of RiverClan. The other leaders literally give him flak his methods of doing so, and it seems like Leafstar is planning to have him removed from power as well. It's now at the point where there's conspiracies within his own Clan to remove ShadowClan from RiverClan!
Obviously his plans aren't part of some grand scheme for power like Tigerstar I, but whatever his reasons, whether they be out of grief for Rowankit (which I can understand, outliving your child is a hard thing to deal with) or some misguided attempt to help a fellow Clan since he's aware of what it's like to deal with a dysfunctional Clan (see AVoS and TS), he seriously isn't going about it the best way. Here's hoping that since he's the "leader" of RiverClan, there's enough cats who want to see him deposed of that Clan.
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Post by brightheartt on Oct 21, 2023 16:45:54 GMT -5
Another thing I want to add, if StarClan are telling all the medicine cats they can they don’t approve of this and are, to quote, “upset” then you’ve messed up. It’s not very often they give all the clans they same message when it isn’t regarding prophecy. The fact they are being direct and clear to all clans, whether they are directly involved or not, is just a huge signal that in-universe this is wrong regardless of what the intent may be. And then Tiger has the guts to double down and say that StarClan misunderstand him when directly confronted with this fact rather than back down at all. After all this time of waiting for StarClan to show their will on this matter, the moment they actually say something in regards to this he just ignores it.
Yes StarClan are not as morally perfect as they claim to be, but I feel like this was something added by the authors to signal to the reader what their [the authors] believe how this stands morally. And that’s not mentioning how the living characters view his actions (mostly unfavourably).
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Post by Moonblazer on Oct 21, 2023 19:36:40 GMT -5
Nope, he had absolutely no right, and honestly, I hope his invading, garbage ass is killed or forced to step down by the end of the arc, and that Riverclan drives Shadowclan out soundly. Threatening death after invading a camp at night to set up puppet leaders is disgusting. I hope Riverclan bullies their invaders in their camp even more, I hope their occupation is miserable and they finally take it out on their awful leader for once.
But. Since Tigerheart is always right to the authors, I doubt the author’s pet will ever be punished.
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Post by Slightdapple on Oct 21, 2023 20:22:35 GMT -5
Definitely not. Tigerstar’s actions were never justified. It was a forceful occupation in the middle of night, good intentions or not.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Oct 22, 2023 3:24:21 GMT -5
As others have already said on this thread plenty of times (and as I've said on another one about this issue that I can't find right now), having good intentions or at least not necessarily bad ones doesn't mean that certain actions are thus actually indeed also good.
Tigerstar can insist all he wants that he's just trying to help RiverClan and that this was "not a takeover, just trust me, bro" but it doesn't change the fact that he forced his "help" on a Clan that clearly didn't want it and has inserted himself into their business without properly listening to them or their concerns even if he claims he does care about their wellbeing. Instead, this fool is just trying to crack his lame attempt at dad jokes at a Clan that's forcefully occupied by his ShadowClan warriors without having a choice or say in the matter. Not cool, man!
I really hope somebody either takes his dumbass out for real or that he will at least get outvoted or overthrown. Even if that's unlikely because the authors love this dude, there is still at least a chance of it happening.
Fingers crossed Ivypool beats him up at least once as a bonus. Ashfur already gave him a run for his money while in Bramblestar's body. Or Leafstar and Squirrelflight do it instead. Wouldn't say no to that either.
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Post by Wolfyy- on Oct 22, 2023 21:53:31 GMT -5
You all make very good points. I hope I haven't come across as naive or ignorant. I was just stating my initial opinion while reading. At the end of Shadow, things seemed like they were about to heat up. I could definitely be wrong, and Tigerstar could completely take over RiverClan instead of keeping the peace he'd said he wanted. If that's the case, I hope the other clans beat him to a pulp! I can't wait for Thunder to come out!
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Post by dahliadove - #1 nightpelt fan on Oct 23, 2023 3:46:57 GMT -5
i genuinely think he was trying to help out and just got too aggressive with it. his kit died because riverclan was running around busy looking for a leader and didn't realise they had herbs to spare, plus he's been around when a clan collapsed and he was the cause of it, it's pretty obvious he's just trying his absolute hardest and it's his top priority to keep all 5 clans stable, i just think he went the wrong way about it
i think the thing i'm seeing that's the biggest reasoning as for why he's not in the right is that he forced his help on to a clan that didn't want it. i only see fault in the way he went about it - riverclan NEEDED that help and he knows what happens to other clans when one collapses (and it's pretty obvious the clan was bound to worsen in tigerstar's absence), and we can clearly tell that riverclan's state was already affecting other clans due to rowankit's death
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Post by iceheart on Oct 23, 2023 8:18:13 GMT -5
Hard disagree. Tigerheart loves telling others what to do. He always has and he always will. He has this superior authority about him that he is better than everyone else and that he should be leading. Any opinion that isn't his isn't valid and he won't listen to it, and he will throw a tantrum if some cat says something he does not like. The moment he saw a Clan that was weak, a Clan that he could order around, he went ahead and took it. He isn't a moral guy. He doesn't care. He loves bullying others and bossing them around. RiverClan having no leader gave him exactly that opportunity. Now he has more power than a normal Clan leader, and he loves flexing that to his advantage. "Good intentions" aren't paved with "do you want to die?" repeatedly. He has no good intentions. He conquered RiverClan with force because that's the only way he knows how to lead - by exerting his power on others. But since the editors love him to no extent, he will never pay any price for his actions and he will get away with it as he always gets away with everything he's ever done.
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