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Post by User33 on Oct 11, 2023 23:02:04 GMT -5
I mean I understand that the moment StarClan managed to get rallied and united by Jayfeather and the other medicine cats the entire Dark Forest's plan to eradicate the clans and take over the lake plummeted to zero (probably went into the negative zone when the Ancients and Midnight showed up)
But Im wondering if the plan to take over actually had a chance at succeeding? Assuming that StarClan twiddled with their paws and claws and it was just a straight on 1v1 between the Clans and the Dark Forest, I would say that the Dark Forest had a decent shot at winning if they switched up their strategy.
I always wondered why the Dark Forest even bothered attacking all four clans in a single battle? Could've focused on two clans instead of four because even when the Dark Forest warriors were split up they still managed to overrun ShadowClan and would've probably taken it over if ThunderClan never showed up.
So in my head heres how I imagine things play out:
- StarClan refuses to unite so Jayfeather and the other medicine cats give up but make the clan leaders ally each other regardless
- Brokenstar, Mapleshade, and Hawkfrost change the grand plan and instead decide to target WindClan and RiverClan (ThunderClan still has Lionblaze and Firestar so taking out ThunderClan quickly isn't probably going to work and ShadowClan is too close to ThunderClan so yeah.)
- Take over the two targeted clans and destroy them. Split the Dark Forest invasion group three times. One group attacks WindClan, Second Group Attacks RiverClan, and the third group patrols outside of the camps to stop any warriors from escaping or to stop incoming cats to help the clans
-Doesn't matter if RiverClan or WindClan fall first once one group is done they can concentrate all efforts on the remaining clan.
- Once both targeted clans are destroyed (if it even works at all) I assume theres two options for the Dark Forest warriors to choose: Attack ShadowClan and then later ThunderClan or call it a night and then attack tomorrow night but risk that StarClan finally decides to unite so taking out ShadowClan immediately after WindClan and RiverClan fall is vital to finally go against ThunderClan
But thats how I imagine it. Because the Dark Forest ain't winning if StarClan is backing the clans.
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Post by thewinterblaze on Oct 11, 2023 23:53:47 GMT -5
The clans would get their asses kicked if StarClan and the Ancients hadn't shown up. If I remember correctly, while ThunderClan was holding their own relatively well, I think two of the other clans(RiverClan and either ShadowClan/WindClan) were getting overrun and had to send runners to the other clans asking for help. Also, multiple important DF warriors(Brokenstar, as an example) were killed in battle by StarClan and Ancient cats.
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Post by کیوان on Oct 12, 2023 0:11:58 GMT -5
Ok, but if the Dark Forest ended up winning, SkyClan would be the last Clan standing, which would be ironic in a way — at least until Darktail showed up at the gorge with his cats.
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Post by thewinterblaze on Oct 12, 2023 0:40:00 GMT -5
Alright- having reread the battle scene, I've changed my mind- the clans would win, but at a much heavier cost. I've made a basic timeline of the battle of StarClan/Ancients hadn't come as reinforcements.
-Clans agree to cooperate to fight off the Dark Forest, the two fastest cats from each clan are designated as runners in case their respective clans need help.
-Clans start frantically practicing battle moves and begin fortifying camps with bramble and thornbushes. -The first elements of the Dark Forest reach the clans. Patrols from each clan are sent out. Not sure about other clans but ThunderClan sends three-man patrols to ShadowClan, WindClan, and RiverClan. I assume the other clans do the same. (If anyone wants to read the entire battle scene, start on Chapter 23 in TLH.)
-The Dark Forest launches attacks on all clans simultaneously. Dovewing hears a shriek from ShadowClan, indicating they may have been hit first.
-ThunderClan patrols made up of the remaining cats are sent out to defend their territory. Dovewing and Cloudtail make contact with Darkstripe and Sparrowfeather. Cloudtail is nearly killed and Dovewing is also injured. A bad start.
-Dark Forest warriors breach the ThunderClan perimeter and reach the camp. I'm going to say they have also reached, the WindClan, RiverClan, and ShadowClan camps as well.
-The ThunderClan warriors defending the camp are outnumbered but fight well. At this point, the RiverClan and WindClan warriors sent to help ThunderClan arrive. Slowly, the tide begins to turn, for ThunderClan at least.
-The first wave of Dark Forest cats attacking the TC camp retreat. A second wave is heard coming. The warriors in the camp regroup and recover. No fatalities yet, for these warriors. Not sure about the other clans.
-Stoatpaw, a ShadowClan apprentice, frantically arrives in the TC Camp, delivering the news that ShadowClan has been overrun, Blackstar has lost a life, and that they desperately need help. Uh oh.
-A patrol is sent to ShadowClan, consisting of Lionblaze and Graystripe. They arrive to find the ShadowClan camp in chaos, with cats battling furiously. The first onscreen death is shown- a ShadowClan kit, presumably Pinenose's.
-The Dark Forest launches another furious attack at the ShadowClan camp. Here, canonically the Ancients arrive. But say, they didn't. Canonically, Midnight also comes, and we'll count her because she's not a spirit.
-Midnight manages to stabilize the battle, but they don't outright fight off the DF like in the actual book. Redwillow dies at the hands of Blackstar, as he does in canon. Shredtail also dies to Lionblaze, again like he does in the actual book. Right now, the situation is a stalemate. Because of this, Lionblaze and Graystripe are not able to return to the ThunderClan camp like they actually do.
-Back at the TC camp, where it's relatively calm, Ivypool is making her way to WindClan. She finds some of her other DF recruits and convinces them to fight with the clans against the Dark Forest.
-They go to the WindClan camp.
-WindClan is getting their asses kicked, as usual.
-Crowfeather gets slapped[sic] to the ground, which I find extremely hilarious.
-Again, even when the former DF recruits come to help, the battle for the WindClan camp is still a stalemate. Ivypool is attacked by Hawkfrost, but is saved by Hollyleaf who sustains a grievous wound in the process.
-Ivypool, and Tigerheart for some reason, take Hollyleaf back to the ThunderClan camp. Which, for some reason has been left completely alone. Hollyleaf dies of her wounds.
-I spoke too soon. As soon as Ivypool returns, the Dark Forest launches their second attack on the camp.
-The battle is extremely brutal. Every warrior is fighting for their life.
-In canon, here is when StarClan comes and saves the day. But in this scenario, they don't. Midnight does though, having somehow made it to the ThunderClan camp. Somehow.
-The results of this would most likely be that although Midnight does help a bit, the battle is still not in ThunderClan's favor. I'm guessing that this is where a lot of ThunderClan warriors are KIA. In the book, Mousefur and Ferncloud die. In my scenario, Icecloud, Longtail, Purdy, and Sorrelcloud also die. Icecloud is caught unaware and pays for it with her life. Longtail, Purdy, and Mousefur fall, side by side, fighting for their clan to their last breath. Sorreltail and Ferncloud battle like lions to protect their kits, eventually succumbing.
-RiverClan is mentioned to have been able to drive the DF to the edges of their territory. No StarClan help is mentioned to have gone to RiverClan, but most likely some did arrive. So, in my scenario, RiverClan is only able to drive them out of their camp.
-Meanwhile at the TC camp, Mapleshade attacks Sandstorm. Canonically, Spottedleaf saves her. But come on now. Sandstorm is an extremely skilled fighter and is easily able to fight off Mapleshade by herself.
-In the book, Brokenstar is killed by Yellowfang. In this scenario, it is instead Firestar who kills him, sustaining some wounds in the process.
-With the loss of Mapleshade and Brokenstar, the DF retreats, but is definitely not defeated.
-Almost forgot to mention that Hawkfrost is killed by Brambleclaw. That's how underwhelming his death was.
-Tigerstar delivers a villain monologue. Proceeds to die. Firestar also dies.
-This is where the canon battle ends.
-However, in my scenario, a few things change. Firstly, the Dark Forest retreats from both ThunderClan and RiverClan territory, but WindClan and ShadowClan are defeated and forced to seek help from TC and RC.
-Both of these clans have suffered heavily. I'm putting it at maybe a 45% fatality rate for both.
-The clans contemplate on launching an attack the drive out the DF once and for all, but given how mauled all the clans are it's decided against. Instead, they reinforce the TC and RC camps.
-A war of attrition is fought, similar to the one against Darktail, but at a larger scale. More warriors die. Eventually, the Dark Forest is defeated, but the clans are a shell of their former self. ShadowClan and WindClan have been completely gutted and their clans are in ruins.
-ThunderClan and RiverClan, although having fared slightly better are still not doing amazing.
-It's a bitter victory. And one the clans may never recover from.
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Post by thewinterblaze on Oct 12, 2023 0:40:22 GMT -5
holy shit what did I create
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Post by vectoring34 on Oct 12, 2023 10:21:29 GMT -5
holy shit what did I create Excellent analysis. This is exactly how I would envision it occurring. The Dark Forest simply had too few cats and too little coordination to be able to strike a complete victory, but they could have made it a far more brutal, dragged out process. Without Starclan and co., there would have been so many more deaths that it would make sense to be a slow, pushing battle to destroy the Dark Forest 'beachhead' so to speak since the Dark Forest might have been able to try to reinforce it themselves. I think the other x-factor here too is that the Dark Forest had conspirators betraying it from the start. I don't refer to just the recruits here, but Tigerstar as well. He wanted to duel Firestar, one on one, toe to toe, and didn't care how many of his team he had to step on to achieve that goal. Given how we see him shoot down a more cautious, safer plan from Brokenstar using high-ground in favor of convincing him and Mapleshade to go for a reckless attack purely at the heart of the camp, it is likely he would do more of the same here. If Tigerstar fears that the battle is going TOO well, he may try to shotgun an attack to get to Firestar before things get too bad and he's robbed of his chance for revenge.
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Post by droppaw 🍂 on Oct 12, 2023 12:19:56 GMT -5
-The results of this would most likely be that although Midnight does help a bit, the battle is still not in ThunderClan's favor. I'm guessing that this is where a lot of ThunderClan warriors are KIA. In the book, Mousefur and Ferncloud die. In my scenario, Icecloud, Longtail, Purdy, and Sorrelcloud also die. Icecloud is caught unaware and pays for it with her life. Longtail, Purdy, and Mousefur fall, side by side, fighting for their clan to their last breath. Sorreltail and Ferncloud battle like lions to protect their kits, eventually succumbing. I'm pretty sure Longtail is already dead, he showed up at the battle as a Starclan cat and was trying to Help Mousefur when she died. Really great analysis though!! I love how you imagine it to play out, I wouldn't have thought of the initial loss then Regrouping bit But its definitely more interesting, imagining How the remaining cats would React to the situation Seeming so Hopeless
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Post by thewinterblaze on Oct 12, 2023 20:58:54 GMT -5
-The results of this would most likely be that although Midnight does help a bit, the battle is still not in ThunderClan's favor. I'm guessing that this is where a lot of ThunderClan warriors are KIA. In the book, Mousefur and Ferncloud die. In my scenario, Icecloud, Longtail, Purdy, and Sorrelcloud also die. Icecloud is caught unaware and pays for it with her life. Longtail, Purdy, and Mousefur fall, side by side, fighting for their clan to their last breath. Sorreltail and Ferncloud battle like lions to protect their kits, eventually succumbing. I'm pretty sure Longtail is already dead, he showed up at the battle as a Starclan cat and was trying to Help Mousefur when she died. Really great analysis though!! I love how you imagine it to play out, I wouldn't have thought of the initial loss then Regrouping bit But its definitely more interesting, imagining How the remaining cats would React to the situation Seeming so Hopeless Oh I completely forgot about that- thanks for reminding me.
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