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Post by Clawheart on Oct 1, 2023 19:29:28 GMT -5
I think Hawkfrost would win because bramblestar only won because he thought to stab Hawkfrost in the neck with the needle and the second fight was after Hawkfrost killed hollyleaf(a good fighter) and was injured
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Post by User33 on Oct 1, 2023 20:11:54 GMT -5
Hawkfrost was doing well against Ivypool while injured so I guess Hawkfrost would win. I can't think of many notable feats for ol' Bramblestar here but I'm confident he has some.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Hawkfrost being escorted by Brambleclaw into camp? It's been a while since I read The Last Hope but I always wondered why Hawkfrost just didn't make a mad dash back to the Dark Forest if he was alone (momentarily) with Brambleclaw on the way back to the ThunderClan camp.
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Post by Clawheart on Oct 2, 2023 16:48:53 GMT -5
Wait lol I realized that both Ivypool and Lionblaze both got trained and beat(idk if Ivypool they never said) Hawkfrost when they were apprentices. Poor Bramblestar got outperformed by apprentices he really can’t get a break.
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Aroace
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Oct 2, 2023 17:04:43 GMT -5
Wait lol I realized that both Ivypool and Lionblaze both got trained and beat(idk if Ivypool they never said) Hawkfrost when they were apprentices. Poor Bramblestar got outperformed by apprentices he really can’t get a break. Ivypool never beat Hawkfrost in a fight, I'm pretty sure. Unless you count that one training session between them (either in FE or NW) where he showed her a move and she managed to unbalance him iirc (or just nip him in one of his hindlegs idr). Lionblaze is another story since he had special powers while training with Tigerstar and Hawkfrost. He overpowered Tigerstar in the Sunrise prologue and did fight Hawkfrost, but only during training sessions where he defeated him. But then got jumped by Hawkfrost while he was briefly distracted one time (again iirc). So yeah, I wouldn't exactly say that Brambleclaw was outperformed by apprentices. Hawkfrost was probably indeed stronger (and likely smarter) than him but Brambleclaw still managed to kill him though. Once with luck on his side (the foxtrap stick) and once while Hawkfrost was already injured. The second killing wasn't very honorable of Brambleclaw but neither was Hawkfrost or the side he fought for, so there's that.
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Post by {Azure} on Oct 2, 2023 17:09:54 GMT -5
Wait lol I realized that both Ivypool and Lionblaze both got trained and beat(idk if Ivypool they never said) Hawkfrost when they were apprentices. Poor Bramblestar got outperformed by apprentices he really can’t get a break. Ivypool never beat Hawkfrost in a fight, I'm pretty sure. Unless you count that one training session between them (either in FE or NW) where he showed her a move and she managed to unbalance him iirc (or just nip him in one of his hindlegs idr). Lionblaze is another story since he had special powers while training with Tigerstar and Hawkfrost. He overpowered Tigerstar in the Sunrise prologue and did fight Hawkfrost, but only during training sessions where he defeated him. But then got jumped by Hawkfrost while he was briefly distracted one time (again iirc). So yeah, I wouldn't exactly say that Brambleclaw was outperformed by apprentices. Hawkfrost was probably indeed stronger (and likely smarter) than him but Brambleclaw still managed to kill him though. Once with luck on his side (the foxtrap stick) and once while Hawkfrost was already injured. The second killing wasn't very honorable of Brambleclaw but neither was Hawkfrost or the side he fought for, so there's that. what exactly wasn't honorable here?
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Post by Clawheart on Oct 2, 2023 17:10:34 GMT -5
Oh okay. Did Lionblaze have powers in the dark forest? Because he got beat up and scratched which made hollypaw freak out.
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Aroace
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Oct 2, 2023 17:19:47 GMT -5
Ivypool never beat Hawkfrost in a fight, I'm pretty sure. Unless you count that one training session between them (either in FE or NW) where he showed her a move and she managed to unbalance him iirc (or just nip him in one of his hindlegs idr). Lionblaze is another story since he had special powers while training with Tigerstar and Hawkfrost. He overpowered Tigerstar in the Sunrise prologue and did fight Hawkfrost, but only during training sessions where he defeated him. But then got jumped by Hawkfrost while he was briefly distracted one time (again iirc). So yeah, I wouldn't exactly say that Brambleclaw was outperformed by apprentices. Hawkfrost was probably indeed stronger (and likely smarter) than him but Brambleclaw still managed to kill him though. Once with luck on his side (the foxtrap stick) and once while Hawkfrost was already injured. The second killing wasn't very honorable of Brambleclaw but neither was Hawkfrost or the side he fought for, so there's that. what exactly wasn't honorable here? Dragging an already injured cat all the way back to the ThunderClan camp and killing him there. I know Hawkfrost was evil and had killed Hollyleaf (Brambleclaw's adopted daughter) and am not trying to say he didn't have it coming/didn't deserve it. But still. Although one could say that it was still honorable in the different sense of Brambleclaw avenging his daughter's death by murdering her killer though.
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Post by {Azure} on Oct 2, 2023 17:23:11 GMT -5
what exactly wasn't honorable here? Dragging an already injured cat all the way back to the ThunderClan camp and killing him there. I know Hawkfrost was evil and had killed Hollyleaf (Brambleclaw's adopted daughter) and am not trying to say he didn't have it coming/didn't deserve it. But still. Although one could say that it was still honorable in the different sense of Brambleclaw avenging his dauhter's death by murdering her killer though. firestar killed darkstripe with rootspring's body unprovoked, although he was an awful cat who tried to kill a kit. i wouldn't call that not honorable
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Aroace
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Oct 2, 2023 17:26:24 GMT -5
Oh okay. Did Lionblaze have powers in the dark forest? Because he got beat up and scratched which made hollypaw freak out. Lionblaze was born with his powers and only lost them after the Great Battle (same with Jayfeather and Dovewing in terms of their own abilities). Although there are inconsistencies throughout both PoT and OotS of Lionblaze still getting injured despite it being stated that his powers made him invincible unless he wanted to be defeated like in TLH when he let Ratscar beat him up on purpose and he also got a nick in his ear during a border skirmish with WindClan during DR.
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Aroace
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Oct 2, 2023 17:31:31 GMT -5
Dragging an already injured cat all the way back to the ThunderClan camp and killing him there. I know Hawkfrost was evil and had killed Hollyleaf (Brambleclaw's adopted daughter) and am not trying to say he didn't have it coming/didn't deserve it. But still. Although one could say that it was still honorable in the different sense of Brambleclaw avenging his daughter's death by murdering her killer though. firestar killed darkstripe with rootspring's body unprovoked, although he was an awful cat who tried to kill a kit. i wouldn't call that not honorable Darkstripe had not been previously injured and had not been dragged from who knows where though. He was guarding Rootspring and Firestar offered his help of defeating Darkstripe since, similar to Brambleclaw and Hawkfrost, he had history with him. I personally don't really think that these two instances are all that comparable outside of two evil cats getting yeeted out of existence for good. Firestar killing Darkstripe was indeed epic and I love him for it forever but it also did feel a lot like fanservice.
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Post by 𓆩♡𓆪Moonshine𓆩♡𓆪 on Oct 2, 2023 18:19:40 GMT -5
Honestly? I think Bramblestar would beat Hawkfrost. Pretty sure Hawkfrost was only shoving Bramblestar around in Sunset purely because Bramblestar was holding back as to not hurt a cat he somewhat cared about.
Also pretty sure Bramblestar was chasing Hawkfrost back towards the Thunderclan camp in LTH. Doesn't sound like a situation where Bramblestar was losing...
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Post by {Azure} on Oct 2, 2023 19:30:45 GMT -5
firestar killed darkstripe with rootspring's body unprovoked, although he was an awful cat who tried to kill a kit. i wouldn't call that not honorable Darkstripe had not been previously injured and had not been dragged from who knows where though. He was guarding Rootspring and Firestar offered his help of defeating Darkstripe since, similar to Brambleclaw and Hawkfrost, he had history with him. I personally don't really think that these two instances are all that comparable outside of two evil cats getting yeeted out of existence for good. Firestar killing Darkstripe was indeed epic and I love him for it forever but it also did feel a lot like fanservice. good point, especially on the fanservice bit. i might just be biased due to my deep and passionate hatred of hawkfrost
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Post by Clawheart on Oct 2, 2023 21:46:40 GMT -5
Oh okay. Did Lionblaze have powers in the dark forest? Because he got beat up and scratched which made hollypaw freak out. Lionblaze was born with his powers and only lost them after the Great Battle (same with Jayfeather and Dovewing in terms of their own abilities). Although there are inconsistencies throughout both PoT and OotS of Lionblaze still getting injured despite it being stated that his powers made him invincible unless he wanted to be defeated like in TLH when he let Ratscar beat him up on purpose and he also got a nick in his ear during a border skirmish with WindClan during DR. Oh okay I have not read POT in a while and forgot he had his powers when he was born just discovered them after he fought the rogue at the tribe of rushing water.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Oct 3, 2023 9:52:16 GMT -5
Oh okay. Did Lionblaze have powers in the dark forest? Because he got beat up and scratched which made hollypaw freak out. Lionblaze was born with his powers and only lost them after the Great Battle (same with Jayfeather and Dovewing in terms of their own abilities). Although there are inconsistencies throughout both PoT and OotS of Lionblaze still getting injured despite it being stated that his powers made him invincible unless he wanted to be defeated like in TLH when he let Ratscar beat him up on purpose and he also got a nick in his ear during a border skirmish with WindClan during DR. Not sure if it's intentional or not, but I always inferred that the Three's powers weren't "fully developed" when they were apprentices, and that's why Lionpaw was able to be minorly injured a few times as an apprentice.
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Post by vectoring34 on Oct 3, 2023 10:01:53 GMT -5
Honestly? I think Bramblestar would beat Hawkfrost. Pretty sure Hawkfrost was only shoving Bramblestar around in Sunset purely because Bramblestar was holding back as to not hurt a cat he somewhat cared about. Also pretty sure Bramblestar was chasing Hawkfrost back towards the Thunderclan camp in LTH. Doesn't sound like a situation where Bramblestar was losing... Hawkfrost had already taken a lot of damage from Hollyleaf beforehand, that's the problem. Brambleclaw dragging an already wounded Hawkfrost back to camp, then cheapshotting him from behind while he's fending off Ivypool is the part that makes it look like he couldn't take him in a fair fight. The way Hawkfrost died was basically the way Blackfoot and Darkstripe killed Stonefur, so it ends up looking rather dishonorable
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Post by nowarriornameshere on Oct 3, 2023 23:33:08 GMT -5
I don't see the big deal about their first fight. Brambleclaw used a stick, big whoop. You could just as easily argue that Hawkfrost is a dumbass for not accounting for the giant pointy object on the scene and wouldn't have had the brains needed to outwit Brambleclaw.
Their second go is hard to say. As we know, Hawkfrost was already injured, so he was at a disadvantage. That doesn't mean anything about whether it means he could take Brambleclaw at his prime.
Ultimately, it's hard to judge exactly how tough Hawkfrost is - at least partially because almost all of his fights involve somebody as a disadvantage. His fights have been against >a starving ThunderClan she-cat who's way smaller than him, that he took by surprise >an enraged Clanmate that he deliberately pissed off and lost against in order to make him look bad >a half-brother that didn't want to kill him and wanted to resolve things peacefully >a cat specifically acting to protect somebody else from his attack, while he was attacking to kill I honestly don't think Hawkfrost is all that.
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Pansexual
Medicine cat
Nettle
woof woof
Pronouns: She/her, They/them.
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Post by Nettle on Oct 7, 2023 0:17:58 GMT -5
Hawkfrost for sure. He only lost because Brambleclaw used the needle from the fox trap, (which was technically unfair, because the battle in a fair fight would be with only their own teeth and claw.) and stabbing him in the neck. In a FAIR fight however, Hawkfrost would definitely dominate due to his training with his father, Tigerstar. Also, Hawkfrost is one of my favorite villains <3
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