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Post by Ivyclaw🪻 on Jun 17, 2023 17:03:46 GMT -5
Thoughts?
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Jun 17, 2023 20:12:52 GMT -5
I don't really have any strong opinions tbh. Their relationship from what we saw in AVOS and TBC was nice, and seemed healthy.
But we never really saw either being a parent that much. Aside from them worrying about Bristle in the later half of TBC. I wish we got more insight and development on their family, but alas, we get more BrambleSquirrel drama instead...yay...
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Jun 18, 2023 4:49:10 GMT -5
Like their relationship and do think they are good parents but we honestly don't really see enough of them in AVoS and TBC apart from a few scenes.
Which is why I'm in desperate need of an Ivypool Super Edition (if she becomes deputy/leader and to showcase her relationship with Fernsong more in depth) or/and a Fernsong Novella (to showcase him in the nursery as a so called king).
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Post by dahliadove - #1 nightpelt fan on Jun 18, 2023 6:34:40 GMT -5
both decent, we don't see much of it i think i've said this before but i dislike how much praise fernsong gets from the fandom for literally doing the exact same thing that every mother in warrior cats does ever. "hes such a good dad for moving to the nursery and spending time with his kits" but ivypool did that exact same thing and gets less credit than he does... he did the bare minimum and gets treated like the father of the year, despite not really speaking to his kits much after they left the nursery
edit: i realise now that technically he WOULD be father of the year because most dads in warrior cats kinda suck lol. him and shellheart are definitely bare minimum dads but they're up there for top 10 considering all the other fathers in the series are less than bare minimum
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Post by nowarriornameshere on Jun 18, 2023 16:29:45 GMT -5
both decent, we don't see much of it i think i've said this before but i dislike how much praise fernsong gets from the fandom for literally doing the exact same thing that every mother in warrior cats does ever. "hes such a good dad for moving to the nursery and spending time with his kits" but ivypool did that exact same thing and gets less credit than he does... he did the bare minimum and gets treated like the father of the year, despite not really speaking to his kits much after they left the nursery edit: i realise now that technically he WOULD be father of the year because most dads in warrior cats kinda suck lol. him and shellheart are definitely bare minimum dads but they're up there for top 10 considering all the other fathers in the series are less than bare minimum I wouldn't say Shellheart is bare minimum, takes a ****in' LOT to cut ties with your partner over differences in parenting, especially considering later in the book makes it clear he didn't actually hate Rainflower and still cared to a degree. I've seen similar shit IRL, and what a toll it takes. That's genuine strength of character, and I'd say it just the same if Rainflower was the father and Shellheart was the mother.
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Post by sunnypaw on Jun 18, 2023 17:12:59 GMT -5
They’re decent. I liked that we actually got to see some development in AVoS instead of them just suddenly being mates. And they’re both pretty good parents.
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Post by dahliadove - #1 nightpelt fan on Jun 19, 2023 2:30:21 GMT -5
both decent, we don't see much of it i think i've said this before but i dislike how much praise fernsong gets from the fandom for literally doing the exact same thing that every mother in warrior cats does ever. "hes such a good dad for moving to the nursery and spending time with his kits" but ivypool did that exact same thing and gets less credit than he does... he did the bare minimum and gets treated like the father of the year, despite not really speaking to his kits much after they left the nursery edit: i realise now that technically he WOULD be father of the year because most dads in warrior cats kinda suck lol. him and shellheart are definitely bare minimum dads but they're up there for top 10 considering all the other fathers in the series are less than bare minimum I wouldn't say Shellheart is bare minimum, takes a ****in' LOT to cut ties with your partner over differences in parenting, especially considering later in the book makes it clear he didn't actually hate Rainflower and still cared to a degree. I've seen similar shit IRL, and what a toll it takes. That's genuine strength of character, and I'd say it just the same if Rainflower was the father and Shellheart was the mother. Someone made a point to me a while ago that he was a continuous supporter of Crookedstar throughout his life, which I agree with. He's better than Fernsong, but still he's just kind of mediocre. I just feel like breaking up with a partner because they're abusing your kid (and i feel like "differences in parenting" is watering it down a lot) is kind of, standard. Even if it has a mental toll, it's still bare minimum. Definitely better than most fathers and better than Fernsong because of his continued support of Crookedstar and Oakheart, but the whole "he's a great dad because he divorced his wife for abusing their baby" is an odd point to make.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jun 19, 2023 3:27:51 GMT -5
I honestly would've preferred it if Ivypool had never gotten a mate at all. They also seem like decent parents, but because they appear so little as parents, Bristlefrost could've easily been someone else's kit and nothing would've changed, save for the one meaningful conversation she has with her mother in TPoNS.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jun 19, 2023 3:42:51 GMT -5
I wouldn't say Shellheart is bare minimum, takes a ****in' LOT to cut ties with your partner over differences in parenting, especially considering later in the book makes it clear he didn't actually hate Rainflower and still cared to a degree. I've seen similar shit IRL, and what a toll it takes. That's genuine strength of character, and I'd say it just the same if Rainflower was the father and Shellheart was the mother. Someone made a point to me a while ago that he was a continuous supporter of Crookedstar throughout his life, which I agree with. He's better than Fernsong, but still he's just kind of mediocre. I just feel like breaking up with a partner because they're abusing your kid (and i feel like "differences in parenting" is watering it down a lot) is kind of, standard. Even if it has a mental toll, it's still bare minimum. Definitely better than most fathers and better than Fernsong because of his continued support of Crookedstar and Oakheart, but the whole "he's a great dad because he divorced his wife for abusing their baby" is an odd point to make. If you consider Shellheart immediately breaking up with his mate the very moment she showed her true colors and giving unconditional love towards his disfigured son for the entirety of Crookedstar's life to be the bare minimum, I sincerely wonder what your definition of a great parent would be. Breaking things off with a partner also isn't as easy as you seem to think it is, especially when there are children involved; in many cases, that actually tends to complicate things, not make it easier.
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Post by dahliadove - #1 nightpelt fan on Jun 19, 2023 7:03:06 GMT -5
Someone made a point to me a while ago that he was a continuous supporter of Crookedstar throughout his life, which I agree with. He's better than Fernsong, but still he's just kind of mediocre. I just feel like breaking up with a partner because they're abusing your kid (and i feel like "differences in parenting" is watering it down a lot) is kind of, standard. Even if it has a mental toll, it's still bare minimum. Definitely better than most fathers and better than Fernsong because of his continued support of Crookedstar and Oakheart, but the whole "he's a great dad because he divorced his wife for abusing their baby" is an odd point to make. If you consider Shellheart immediately breaking up with his mate the very moment she showed her true colors and giving unconditional love towards his disfigured son for the entirety of Crookedstar's life to be the bare minimum, I sincerely wonder what your definition of a great parent would be. Breaking things off with a partner also isn't as easy as you seem to think it is, especially when there are children involved; in many cases, that actually tends to complicate things, not make it easier. the two things you listed are quite literally the bare minimum for raising a child. shellheart breaking up with rainflower immediately was nice of him, but holding the people that abuse his son accountable for their actions is. bare minimum. and unconditional love throughout his life is? also the basis of having a good relationship with your kid? anyways i do have examples of great parents. crookedstar. tree. squirrelflight and leafpool (squilf for raising the three, leafpool for the insane sacrifices she made). billystorm. ferncloud. daisy
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Post by nowarriornameshere on Jun 19, 2023 8:58:35 GMT -5
If you consider Shellheart immediately breaking up with his mate the very moment she showed her true colors and giving unconditional love towards his disfigured son for the entirety of Crookedstar's life to be the bare minimum, I sincerely wonder what your definition of a great parent would be. Breaking things off with a partner also isn't as easy as you seem to think it is, especially when there are children involved; in many cases, that actually tends to complicate things, not make it easier. the two things you listed are quite literally the bare minimum for raising a child. shellheart breaking up with rainflower immediately was nice of him, but holding the people that abuse his son accountable for their actions is. bare minimum. and unconditional love throughout his life is? also the basis of having a good relationship with your kid? anyways i do have examples of great parents. crookedstar. tree. squirrelflight and leafpool (squilf for raising the three, leafpool for the insane sacrifices she made). billystorm. ferncloud. daisy I think we have very different definitions of "bare minimum", because while it's something he absolutely should have done, it's also still something incredibly difficult and shows a great strength of will and character - especially in a society that was more than willing to go ahead and PERMIT said abuse of that son, seeing as Hailstar went ahead with that horrific renaming ceremony.
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Post by Sphinxwhisker on Jun 19, 2023 9:31:08 GMT -5
All this discussion about Shellheart being a bare minimum father is making my brain seize up. Him breaking up with Rainflower over her abusive parenting is hardly what I’d consider bare minimum. It shows a tremendous amount of fortitude and courage that he selflessly shoved his own future and happiness aside to stand up for the injustice treatment of his son. He could have very easily done what majority of parents in that situation would have done, Nothing. He could have ignored it, condoned it, tried to water down Rainflowers actions as somehow a necessary evil for Crookedstar to endure, or that it’s just her way of showing love. Or countless other ways he could have justified it to himself to let it play out, without having any repercussions to his own reputation.
Anyway. And on Ivypool x Fernsong’s relationship/parenting. If they’d actually give us some spotlight on their relationship, or any interactions between them and their kits, I’d might actually have an opinion on them. But as it stands, there’s really no evidence to suggest they’re one way or the other.
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Post by Hollyfall on Jun 19, 2023 12:11:15 GMT -5
They seem like decent parents? Their kids turned out pretty well, but I wish we saw more of it as opposed to being told.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jun 19, 2023 12:25:39 GMT -5
I think the fact that this thread veered off into discussing Shellheart is just a perfect example of how much of a nothing character Fernsong is. What's there to discuss? Almost nothing aside from vague comparisons to other characters who are more interesting than he is.
Entirely neutral on the ship and parenting, we see nothing about it most of the time. Ivypool has a few nice scenes, but it doesn't help Fernsong.
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Post by nowarriornameshere on Jun 19, 2023 15:47:17 GMT -5
I think the fact that this thread veered off into discussing Shellheart is just a perfect example of how much of a nothing character Fernsong is. What's there to discuss? Almost nothing aside from vague comparisons to other characters who are more interesting than he is. Entirely neutral on the ship and parenting, we see nothing about it most of the time. Ivypool has a few nice scenes, but it doesn't help Fernsong. Yeaaaah... I ran my mouth on it in a post on a different thread, but I feel like Fernsong is overhyped for reasons that have little to do with the world he lives in and is found to be more amazing for reasons that exist in our world, not his. And that the number one aspect of his character anyone will discuss is "he stayed in the nursery with the kits instead of Ivypool", because outside of that part of his history, we just see very little of him. (Shoot, we didn't even really SEE that part of his life. We were told about it.)
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Post by Galestorm on Jun 19, 2023 15:50:05 GMT -5
Personally, I don’t like the pair. I feel like it was forced and the age difference between the two throws me off. Ivypool already mentored Snowbush and was establishing herself as a prominent warrior in the Clan. The she decides to mate with her own mentors kit? She just always stood out to me as an independent cat with no love interests, unlike her sister. As for Fernsong, I’m happy we got a tom that showed more interest in his kits than the warrior duties. I just wish he could’ve done this with another cat, perhaps Leafshade(who I imagine being like Ivypool) or Honeyfur.
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Post by stupidflower on Jun 19, 2023 17:41:38 GMT -5
They're fine. We don't really have much of them aside from the fact that they love each other and their kits. Pretty stock pairing, with the only special thing being that Fernsong was willing to help Ivypool in the nursery with their kits, though I think that says more about Fernsong than their relationship. I don't mind that Ivypool has a mate or kits. I'm not entirely sure why people dislike that she has kits, but I'll respect that opinion. I get that in OoTS she may not seem to be the kind to have those things, but she is still pretty young then and has a lot on her mind, I don't think it's unreasonable that she eventually decides to take a mate, though it would be nice to have a main series protagonist without a love interest (only one so far is Shadowsight, and Flametail if you want to count him). The age gap is wierd, but there's tons of bigger age gaps in the series so I don't care to much.
Overall they're fine, a generic sweet couple with a small new element that definitely boosts its popularity.
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Post by dahliadove - #1 nightpelt fan on Jun 20, 2023 1:18:26 GMT -5
the two things you listed are quite literally the bare minimum for raising a child. shellheart breaking up with rainflower immediately was nice of him, but holding the people that abuse his son accountable for their actions is. bare minimum. and unconditional love throughout his life is? also the basis of having a good relationship with your kid? anyways i do have examples of great parents. crookedstar. tree. squirrelflight and leafpool (squilf for raising the three, leafpool for the insane sacrifices she made). billystorm. ferncloud. daisy I think we have very different definitions of "bare minimum", because while it's something he absolutely should have done, it's also still something incredibly difficult and shows a great strength of will and character - especially in a society that was more than willing to go ahead and PERMIT said abuse of that son, seeing as Hailstar went ahead with that horrific renaming ceremony. sorry i'm still going on about this but "something he absolutely should have done" is the definition of bare minimum is it not? if he hadn't had held rainflower accountable, he'd have steered off into bad parent territory. by breaking up with her he's just staying on the average of parenting edit: wait let me reword this it llooks dumb hold on if it was something he absolutely should have done. and if he didn't do it then he'd look like a bad parent. then that's bare minimum - for example, the bare minimum for a job would be... doing the work. that's what he did. he did the right thing but it was also something that pretty much any decent parent would do in that situation, otherwise he'd be considered a bad parent. that's bare minimum parenting to summarise my point, while i do think shellheart is a better father than most dads in the series, it doesn't mean he's as excellent as the fandom makes him out to be. he's just okay. good on him for being one of crookedstar's biggest supporters throughout his life, but breaking up with rainflower was the right thing to do and the only right thing to do. that doesn't make him a hero
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 20, 2023 5:46:48 GMT -5
I think they're fine, but unless Ivypool gets more spotlight we won't see more of her family dynamic. When you compare it to the DoveTiger trashfire, that's over 3 series, 1 novella, and 2 supper editions shoved down our throats, it makes sense by comparison it has more content.
Ivypool's character shows that you can be independent and still have a healthy relationship with your mate, and a loving family, without her character taking a nose dive for it. Added in the fact that the BrambleSquirrel drama constantly sucks up any spotlight of any protagonist in ThunderClan, constantly, it explains even more so at the lack of screentime with this family. So as I said, unless Ivypool gets an SE, or even a novella (to which she's gotten neither in the past compared to the oversaturation of her sister) we won't see more.
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Post by nowarriornameshere on Jun 20, 2023 8:42:53 GMT -5
I think we have very different definitions of "bare minimum", because while it's something he absolutely should have done, it's also still something incredibly difficult and shows a great strength of will and character - especially in a society that was more than willing to go ahead and PERMIT said abuse of that son, seeing as Hailstar went ahead with that horrific renaming ceremony. sorry i'm still going on about this but "something he absolutely should have done" is the definition of bare minimum is it not? if he hadn't had held rainflower accountable, he'd have steered off into bad parent territory. by breaking up with her he's just staying on the average of parenting edit: wait let me reword this it llooks dumb hold on if it was something he absolutely should have done. and if he didn't do it then he'd look like a bad parent. then that's bare minimum - for example, the bare minimum for a job would be... doing the work. that's what he did. he did the right thing but it was also something that pretty much any decent parent would do in that situation, otherwise he'd be considered a bad parent. that's bare minimum parenting to summarise my point, while i do think shellheart is a better father than most dads in the series, it doesn't mean he's as excellent as the fandom makes him out to be. he's just okay. good on him for being one of crookedstar's biggest supporters throughout his life, but breaking up with rainflower was the right thing to do and the only right thing to do. that doesn't make him a hero Sacrifices are not what falls under bare minimum. Let's take a fantastic scenario, such as "a hero fighting to save the world must give up their own life to stop the villain. There is no other option, either they perform the sacrifice and die or they don't and the world falls." Yes, they very much SHOULD perform the sacrifice. But doing it isn't the bare minimum. Or let's take a mundane situation, such as "a woman who has just given birth to her child has been abandoned by her husband, who has learned that the child was born deaf and wants nothing to do with her". (This happened in one of my favorite series, "A Silent Voice".) Sure, she SHOULD still raise her daughter. But choosing to still push through and do the right thing in a situation you should not have had to be put into and doing so with love and dedication is not a bare minimum. Shellheart chose to give up his relationship with someone he loved, stand up for his disfigured son, and face the heat in a society that wouldn't have thought any less of him for just turning away, or for pretending Rainflower was right or trying to make excuses for her. The term "bare minimum" encapsulates the idea of doing "the very least you could reasonably get away with". Shellheart very well could have just looked the other way and gotten away with it. (Hell, Rainflower did WORSE than look the other way and got away with it.) Bare minimum isn't it at all.
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Post by kells on Jun 20, 2023 20:27:37 GMT -5
sorry i'm still going on about this but "something he absolutely should have done" is the definition of bare minimum is it not? if he hadn't had held rainflower accountable, he'd have steered off into bad parent territory. by breaking up with her he's just staying on the average of parenting edit: wait let me reword this it llooks dumb hold on if it was something he absolutely should have done. and if he didn't do it then he'd look like a bad parent. then that's bare minimum - for example, the bare minimum for a job would be... doing the work. that's what he did. he did the right thing but it was also something that pretty much any decent parent would do in that situation, otherwise he'd be considered a bad parent. that's bare minimum parenting to summarise my point, while i do think shellheart is a better father than most dads in the series, it doesn't mean he's as excellent as the fandom makes him out to be. he's just okay. good on him for being one of crookedstar's biggest supporters throughout his life, but breaking up with rainflower was the right thing to do and the only right thing to do. that doesn't make him a hero Sacrifices are not what falls under bare minimum. Let's take a fantastic scenario, such as "a hero fighting to save the world must give up their own life to stop the villain. There is no other option, either they perform the sacrifice and die or they don't and the world falls." Yes, they very much SHOULD perform the sacrifice. But doing it isn't the bare minimum. Or let's take a mundane situation, such as "a woman who has just given birth to her child has been abandoned by her husband, who has learned that the child was born deaf and wants nothing to do with her". (This happened in one of my favorite series, "A Silent Voice".) Sure, she SHOULD still raise her daughter. But choosing to still push through and do the right thing in a situation you should not have had to be put into and doing so with love and dedication is not a bare minimum. Shellheart chose to give up his relationship with someone he loved, stand up for his disfigured son, and face the heat in a society that wouldn't have thought any less of him for just turning away, or for pretending Rainflower was right or trying to make excuses for her. The term "bare minimum" encapsulates the idea of doing "the very least you could reasonably get away with". Shellheart very well could have just looked the other way and gotten away with it. (Hell, Rainflower did WORSE than look the other way and got away with it.) Bare minimum isn't it at all. Couldn't have said it any better myself. Imagine breaking your leg to save someone's life only for them to turn around and tell you "it's the least you could have done". Believe me, I've seen bare minimum parenting, what Shellheart did was far from that. (A Silent Voice fan, nice)
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Post by Ivyclaw🪻 on Jun 20, 2023 20:36:23 GMT -5
Personally, I don’t like the pair. I feel like it was forced and the age difference between the two throws me off. Ivypool already mentored Snowbush and was establishing herself as a prominent warrior in the Clan. The she decides to mate with her own mentors kit? She just always stood out to me as an independent cat with no love interests, unlike her sister. As for Fernsong, I’m happy we got a tom that showed more interest in his kits than the warrior duties. I just wish he could’ve done this with another cat, perhaps Leafshade(who I imagine being like Ivypool) or Honeyfur. But that's only because Ivypool only focused on the Dark Forest and the prophecy. Ivypool never got to really know herself, so maybe being mates with Fernsong is a nice touch for her. Nice growth to see from her character, you know? Ivypool seems to be a pretty understanding cat after letting go of her drama with Dovewing, being a mature she-cat who focuses on her family and helps others and focuses on her duties as a Clan cat. There's so much to write about her character, I guess I understand why people want a SE or a novella. We don't really have her PoV on Dovewing's drama, only Dovewing's PoV, we don't know how she views her daughters because she's a background momma.. there's so many interesting things that the Erins can do for her character.
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Rainbow
oatwhisker
riverclan's med!!
Pronouns: it/it's, he/him
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Post by oatwhisker on Jun 20, 2023 21:37:09 GMT -5
I dont mind them, personally. I can def relate to Ivypool and she's easily my favorite out of Ivydove and I, like others on this thread, think she should've stayed single- it seems fitting to her character! But tbf, I do like Fernsong and kudos to him for being a better dad than like, 95% of all the dads in the series by helping out in the nursery. They made a good pair despite me wishing Ivypool stayed single. So yes, I don't mind them and I like Ivypool a ton.
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Post by hellozzzfrom1892 on Jun 21, 2023 17:20:34 GMT -5
i just wished they'd shown rather than told that fernsong helped out
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Post by dahliadove - #1 nightpelt fan on Jun 22, 2023 1:41:41 GMT -5
sorry i'm still going on about this but "something he absolutely should have done" is the definition of bare minimum is it not? if he hadn't had held rainflower accountable, he'd have steered off into bad parent territory. by breaking up with her he's just staying on the average of parenting edit: wait let me reword this it llooks dumb hold on if it was something he absolutely should have done. and if he didn't do it then he'd look like a bad parent. then that's bare minimum - for example, the bare minimum for a job would be... doing the work. that's what he did. he did the right thing but it was also something that pretty much any decent parent would do in that situation, otherwise he'd be considered a bad parent. that's bare minimum parenting to summarise my point, while i do think shellheart is a better father than most dads in the series, it doesn't mean he's as excellent as the fandom makes him out to be. he's just okay. good on him for being one of crookedstar's biggest supporters throughout his life, but breaking up with rainflower was the right thing to do and the only right thing to do. that doesn't make him a hero Sacrifices are not what falls under bare minimum. Let's take a fantastic scenario, such as "a hero fighting to save the world must give up their own life to stop the villain. There is no other option, either they perform the sacrifice and die or they don't and the world falls." Yes, they very much SHOULD perform the sacrifice. But doing it isn't the bare minimum. Or let's take a mundane situation, such as "a woman who has just given birth to her child has been abandoned by her husband, who has learned that the child was born deaf and wants nothing to do with her". (This happened in one of my favorite series, "A Silent Voice".) Sure, she SHOULD still raise her daughter. But choosing to still push through and do the right thing in a situation you should not have had to be put into and doing so with love and dedication is not a bare minimum. Shellheart chose to give up his relationship with someone he loved, stand up for his disfigured son, and face the heat in a society that wouldn't have thought any less of him for just turning away, or for pretending Rainflower was right or trying to make excuses for her. The term "bare minimum" encapsulates the idea of doing "the very least you could reasonably get away with". Shellheart very well could have just looked the other way and gotten away with it. (Hell, Rainflower did WORSE than look the other way and got away with it.) Bare minimum isn't it at all. well damn i stand corrected
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