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Post by Darkwillow on Jun 5, 2023 19:02:46 GMT -5
I feel like Nightcloud isn't as brought up as someone like Crowfeather or Breezepelt. Does anyone have any specific thoughts about her?
I personally think that she had a right to be jealous, clingy (and possibly suspicious) because of Crowfeather's past affair with Leafpool, and I feel bad for her in a way. I just wish she was treated better by Crowfeather. Her and Breezepelt's personalities could've been a heck of a lot different if he paid them more attention. Nightcloud actually showed her mate affection, while most of the time Crowfeather didn't return it.
I'm not making this thread to hate on Crowfeather- I enjoy his character as well- but I believe that Nightcloud is partially in the right in the whole situation.
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Post by cable on Jun 5, 2023 19:26:43 GMT -5
inb4 this thread turns into a crownightbreeze discourse thread
i dont even care about nightcloud, like. she definitely exists, shes done some bad things (supporting mudclaw, generally being “conservative” as far normalized xenophobia goes) and i dont think she should have grabbed crowfeather during an argument, thats just escalating things (iirc she did not draw blood, correct me if the book does directly say she caused him to bleed. cats dont have thumbs and use their claws to grab things. my cats have grabbed me with their claws MANY times, often rather roughly, and never pierced my skin). as far as the jealousy… like, i dont think any character should be judged morally for feeling an emotion lmao. nightcloud is not perfect. she has absolutely made missteps in the relationship and escalated things by not just giving up and breaking it off, she has contributed towards arguments or started them herself, she has trouble dropping a topic, but the sheer amount of focus she gets from fandom when crowfeather has been even worse on-screen is just WEIRD.
but also like. people literally use her as a shield to defend crowfeathers shitty abusive behavior towards breezepaw and partially leafpool, and it annoys the shit out of me, especially then they turn around and say “oh breezepaw deserved to be hit by his dad for being rude” or “emotional abuse/neglect isnt really abuse”.
i straight up dont trust people who blame everything on nightcloud and ignore crowfeathers behavior for all of outcast, where he treated his son like absolute shit and literally had the pov characters looking into the camera and saying how hes a terrible dad, all without nightcloud present. amazing how he can horribly mistreat his son on-screen and the entire fandom will go “its that bitch nightclouds fault his son hates him! crowfeather said so!”
like it just hurts to read that kind of stuff when youve been through that you know. also gonna request not be quoted/@‘td because i already know this is gonna be a hot button topic for me.
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Post by Darkwillow on Jun 5, 2023 19:36:25 GMT -5
Yep, Breezepelt could've been a whole different cat if his father even paid attention to him (not counting the times Crowfeather scolded him)
Nightcloud was basically raising him as a single mom at this point even though Crowfeather was right there.
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Post by 🍄🎶✨Brambleheart✨🎶🍄 on Jun 5, 2023 19:40:27 GMT -5
Eh. When I was younger I was firmly anti-Nightcloud, then Crowfeather's Trial came out, and I kind of appreciated her more. Now I'm indifferent. She had good traits, like her protectiveness and unconditional love for her son, but some bad ones too, like projecting her issues onto cats like Leafpool and Breezepelt.
That being said, since she is one of the only WindClan cats with more than a book's worth of personality, I am interested in seeing her role in Wind, and maybe even a POV book about her (like a GN about her time at the Twolegplace and/or dealing with her own emotions after the Great Battle?)
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jun 5, 2023 21:36:01 GMT -5
I don't think I have much of an opinion on her one way or another. On one hand, I don't think it's fair to say she's a complete victim (same goes for Breezepelt), but at the same time, she really deserved better than Crowfeather.
Honestly, I feel like my main problem with her comes more so from the inconsistent writing; we're led to believe Nightcloud was always horrible, but every instance we see of her anger issues, it's either because Crowfeather is interacting with Leafpool (his lingering feelings for her weren't exactly a secret and it should also be noted that Leafpool wasn't immune from jealousy either) or it happens post-reveal, when tensions would've obviously been high. There's a reason why I really wouldn't mind a novella or graphic novel on her.
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Post by cable on Jun 5, 2023 21:43:06 GMT -5
Honestly, I feel like my main problem with her comes more so from the inconsistent writing; we're led to believe Nightcloud was always horrible, but every instance we see of her anger issues, it's either because Crowfeather is interacting with Leafpool (his lingering feelings for her weren't exactly a secret and it should also be noted that Leafpool wasn't immune from jealousy either) or it happens post-reveal, when tensions would've obviously been high. There's a reason why I really wouldn't mind a novella or graphic novel on her. biggest gripe tbh. like we’re told shes coddling of breezepelt, but then when we see her with him shes being… totally normal? she defends him when crowfeather effectively questions his competence with no real justification, but the second breezepaw acts like a jerk for no reason, she actually scolds him for it and then thanks lionpaw for helping protect windclan. this is like the first interaction we get with them, which is why this is so notable- if they want her to spoil or coddle him, then they should be using their first scenes together to establish this. likewise, crowfeather says she wants breezepelt to hate him, but she acts totally fine with crow and breeze going off to the mountains alone, which would be great bonding time for them if crowfeather actually cared. this is also decently early on! if they wanted her to be putting a wedge between the two, why would they not have her say anything in protest to keep breezepaw at home? we’re being told one thing and shown another in many cases
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Jun 6, 2023 2:57:09 GMT -5
I like Nightcloud while also liking Crowfeather (and Breezepelt as well as Leafpool). Her behaviour during PoT/OotS was understandable in regards to Crowfeather considering that the whole thing with Leafpool was basically an "the other woman" situation and her jealousy was justified both pre and post reveal when looking at how Crowfeather and Leafpool still interacted with each other right in front of her own eyes.
CT made me like her even more and I'm glad that her and Crowfeather have come to an understanding there. In my opinion, Crowfeather was a shitty dad (and mate) while Nightcloud basically did all the work. The fact that some people (and Rock kinda too on her page in TUG lol) think she's "a helicopter parent" for taking care of Breezepelt still makes no sense to me though. Like, even if she did coddle him at times, she did that because the father of her kit wasn't ever really there for him (or her) and so she was trying to make up for that and kinda fill in both roles.
No, she's not perfect (nor is anyone else or does she need to be) but being jealous/upset when seeing her mate still have feelings for a cat from a previous relationship and just raising their son isn't a flaw of hers. To me, that would be supporting Mudclaw (like Rowanclaw) and treating her mate's other kits with disdain in OotS (even if the latter could be seen as understandable on her part due to her being upset at LeafCrow for it).
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Post by Thistlefur on Jun 6, 2023 4:41:34 GMT -5
She's one of my favourite characters due to her complexity - she's far from a perfect character and in a sense, takes that in her stride.
Her jealousy regarding Leafpool in PoT and OOTS I think is a fairly realistic depiction of the type of relationship she has with Crowfeather and I appreciate the series for giving her that emotion as we've rarely seen grudging or resentful relationships between characters regarding love - other than perhaps Bumblestripe and Ashfur and it adds quite a bit of depth to her character. I also think that it would have been a fairly natural emotion given Crowfeather's lingering feelings about Leafpool, the Clan questioning Crowfeather's loyalty after said relationship, etc.
While never picked up on the series and perhaps a bit unrelated, I also think the parallel between Nightcloud and Leafpool both having three kits each but Leafpool having all three of her kits survive (and all fairly well-respected and in position(s) of power) as well as holding Crowfeather's love as opposed to Nightcloud who arguably never had his love and lost two of her kits with her only surviving kit becoming widely disliked is an interesting opposite.
It can't be ignored that she has made some questionable decisions, but that's what helps make her a realistic character as opposed to someone who always unquestionably makes the right choices. I don't think her supporting Mudclaw is fair to highlight her as a 'bad' character as several other characters in the Clans also did, but aren't held to that judgment. That said, she also was vicious at points that can't be glossed over - escalating arguments, grabbing her mate and general spitefulness towards ThunderClan.
Her relationship with Breezepelt is also something I think deserves a lot more focus or development and one of the best parts of Crowfeather's Trial is demonstrating the bond they have. In the series as a whole, she's shown to be coddling and overprotective at times yes, but a lot of the time she's shown to be normal and has a motherly relationship that many other characters demonstrate yet she's deemed as a bad mother. I can't say I fully agree with Nightcloud's parenting (granted we've never seen it other than when Breezepelt was a young apprentice) and I do think she certainly helped making Breezepelt as 'prickly' as he is but she's not entirely to blame when Crowfeather was such an absent father and so quick to criticize his own son at almost every opportunity. It wouldn't have helped when Crowfeather has been so critical of Breezepelt, yet in quite a few interactions praised his other kits. It comes across in the books that Nightcloud did most of the work with Breezepelt, explaining why the pair are so close, but I think it's an unfair argument to say she loved him and coddled him too much as without her and her love, he wouldn't have had anyone close to him at all which arguably is a crueler fate for a young cat.
Her jealousy and possessiveness seem to be what people fixate on regarding her character but she's also shown to be fiercely loyal and loving. I could type a whole lot more about her, she's one of my favourites and a character I would desperately love a POV or Novella from.
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Post by Twilight Sparkle on Jun 6, 2023 4:59:29 GMT -5
I was initially neutral on Nightcloud, but after CT, I now love her.
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Post by dahliadove - #1 nightpelt fan on Jun 6, 2023 6:56:51 GMT -5
idk i just like her ig shes got a cool name
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jun 6, 2023 15:02:22 GMT -5
Nightcloud seems like a very loyal personality who tragically allowed insecurity to dictate her feelings and actions for much of her adult life. She’s one of those characters who loves very deeply, but whose love can quickly turn on its head into hate if she feels wronged in some way.
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Post by Darkwillow on Jun 6, 2023 16:25:46 GMT -5
Honestly, this thread may or may not turn into a debate and I don't mind if it does lmao
I watched a Nightcloud MAP with the song Heather (by Conan Gray <3) and it made me really upset for her, especially since she shed tears.
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