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Post by Ivyclaw🪻 on May 24, 2023 16:19:36 GMT -5
So I've been browsing the fandom for a little while now, and I see a few folks angry at Squirrelflight for lying to Brambleclaw about the Three. I know StarClan pressured and practically manipulated her to doing it (seriously, why wasn't Squirrelflight angry at Yellowfang for lying to her?)
I feel like fans have a pretty good reason to be angry at Squirrelflight. She should have been honest with him, especially since they're supposed to raise each other. I guess you could argue that she's trying to protect Brambleclaw's reputation because he's been judged in the past before - but Brambleclaw himself said he'd help Squirrelflight if she told the truth.
I'm surprised some people are actually angry at Brambleclaw for being mad at Squirrelflight. View things from his perspective: His wife said the three were his kids, and knowing their actual father is a jerk from WindClan, and the mother was an irresponsible teen at the time, I can't really blame Brambleclaw for being angry at Squirrelflight? Yeah, maybe it was harsh to give her the cold shoulder for several moons, but it's not like he doesn't have a reason to do it. This is a trust issue situation, and since Squirrelflight didn't trust him to keep the Three safe, he has a valid reason to be angry at her for this.
What do you think?
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Post by ! (Ġray) ! on May 24, 2023 16:26:43 GMT -5
I agree. People being mad at Brambleclaw and acting like Squirrelflight is perfect really annoys me, and honestly if I was Brambleclaw my reaction would have been a lot worse. Idk how to explain it but I feel like having kits is exactly what Brambleclaw needed after all the drama with his family. Also I’ve never read SH because I know it will make me mad if I read it but from what I’ve heard, people are getting mad at Brambleclaw for not helping rogues and putting his clan first which is fair imo.
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Post by Ivyclaw🪻 on May 24, 2023 16:30:34 GMT -5
I agree. People being mad at Brambleclaw and acting like Squirrelflight is perfect really annoys me, and honestly if I was Brambleclaw my reaction would have been a lot worse. Idk how to explain it but I feel like having kits is exactly what Brambleclaw needed after all the drama with his family. Also I’ve never read SH because I know it will make me mad if I read it but from what I’ve heard, people are getting mad at Brambleclaw for not helping rogues and putting his clan first which is fair imo. Yeah honestly, from what i remember the rogues were just a problem for anyone. I'm pretty sure Squirrelflight even warned them they're going start a battle, and Tree was pissed at Moonlight for refusing to move lol. The Sisters should've moved, and the Clans are naturally hostile toward other cats outside the Clans, so I don't understand why people are angry about the Moonlight situation. I guess it's because she's pregnant, but moving was really the best situation for all of them. She chose to stay because she was too stubborn to listen. Everyone gave her warnings to move if I remember correctly.
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Post by hazelmaeda on May 24, 2023 16:40:42 GMT -5
I think the fandom has a hate thing for Bramblestar. Someone painted him in a bad light a few years back and now the fandom sees him as a bad guy and a bad mate for literally any disagreement he has with her. But he really trusted her, especially after what the two went through together in The New Prophecy. He was harsh with her but it was dropped on his head out of nowhere in front of every single Clan and it wasn't information that came from her, which it should have been.
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 24, 2023 16:42:07 GMT -5
No, not really. Brambleclaw had every right to be mad. I think the problem for most people comes from when he would argue with her out of pure spite, but even then, I only seem to recall him doing this once. Actually, I think I've seen more people say he shouldn't have he shouldn't have disowned his kits than seeing comments regarding his anger towards her. And speaking as someone who is adopted, I can see both sides.
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Post by ! (Ġray) ! on May 24, 2023 16:49:48 GMT -5
Wait, did Brambleclaw disown his kits? From what I can remember of Bramblestars Storm, he still cared about them and saw them as his family
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Post by hazelmaeda on May 24, 2023 16:54:12 GMT -5
Wait, did Brambleclaw disown his kits? From what I can remember of Bramblestars Storm, he still cared about them and saw them as his family He just sort of...ignores them...after the whole outburst.
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 24, 2023 16:55:09 GMT -5
Wait, did Brambleclaw disown his kits? From what I can remember of Bramblestars Storm, he still cared about them and saw them as his family He did, I'm talking about OotS specifically. Honestly, I'm not even sure if disown is the right word, it's just something I've heard other people say regarding how distant he was from them for most of the arc, though judging by how he covered for Hollyleaf when she came back, it's clear even then that he still cared for them immensely.
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Post by hazelmaeda on May 24, 2023 16:57:30 GMT -5
Wait, did Brambleclaw disown his kits? From what I can remember of Bramblestars Storm, he still cared about them and saw them as his family He did, I'm talking about OotS specifically. Honestly, I'm not even sure if disown is the right word, it's just something I've heard other people say regarding how distant he was from them for most of the arc, though judging by how he covered for Hollyleaf when she came back, it's clear even then that he still cared for them immensely. He ignores them enough for it to bother Lionblaze and Jayfeather but he does warm up to them again as the series progresses. I think he just felt awkward around them, though he didn't disown them.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2023 16:58:17 GMT -5
No. I'm not angry she lied, but Bramblestar also had every right to be hurt and upset by the action. The situation for both of them was horrible, as Squirrelflight was manipulated and forced by her literal Gods to lie (in which, irrc and I could be wrong, she initially says she doesn't want to lie to Brambleclaw? Doesn't make the lie any less hurtful of course.) and Brambleclaw had a right to know what was going on.
Really, while I don't agree with either them on all their actions throughout the series, my heart goes out to the both of them for what happened in PoT/OotS because it was an awful situation for both of them in their own ways.
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Post by hazelmaeda on May 24, 2023 17:10:26 GMT -5
No. I'm not angry she lied, but Bramblestar also had every right to be hurt and upset by the action. The situation for both of them was horrible, as Squirrelflight was manipulated and forced by her literal Gods to lie (in which, irrc and I could be wrong, she initially says she doesn't want to lie to Brambleclaw? Doesn't make the lie any less hurtful of course.) and Brambleclaw had a right to know what was going on. Really, while I don't agree with either them on all their actions throughout the series, my heart goes out to the both of them for what happened in PoT/OotS because it was an awful situation for both of them in their own ways. My heart goes out to them for what happens in basically every series. This is one couple that just can't catch a break!
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Heterosexual
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𝙵𝚎𝚛𝚛𝚎𝚝𝚜𝚝𝚎𝚙
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Post by 𝙵𝚎𝚛𝚛𝚎𝚝𝚜𝚝𝚎𝚙 on May 24, 2023 17:12:10 GMT -5
Honestly, as much as I dislike Squirrelflight (she’s probably one of my least favorite non antagonist cats), I’m not really that upset about her not telling Bramblestar about the three’s true parentage. She was doing what she thought was best for the three at the time, and I can’t really get worked up over that. Of course, was it the right thing to do? Probably not.
A quick note: Bramblestar definitely has a right to be upset with her.
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Post by hazelmaeda on May 24, 2023 17:24:08 GMT -5
It's hard to be mad at either.
Brambleclaw already went through traumatic experiences alongside Squirrelflight as well as during the rift between them. He needed a partner he could trust with everything and anything and he wanted her to give him that same trust. It was like a stab to the heart for him when he had to find out such a major secret in such an awful way rather than by her confiding in him. It's apparent that he tried his best to be a good mate to her and felt she didn't care.
But then in Squirrelflight's case, she was literally told to do what she did by StarClan themselves. I don't think it's fair for anyone to fault her for that.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on May 24, 2023 21:12:40 GMT -5
She was put between a rock and a hard place. I’m sympathetic for her lie, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t a major betrayal of Brambleclaw’s trust.
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Post by Ivyclaw🪻 on May 24, 2023 21:15:34 GMT -5
She was put between a rock and a hard place. I’m sympathetic for her lie, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t a major betrayal of Brambleclaw’s trust. Squirrelflight and Brambleclaw should have stayed broken up after the truth came out. It was a major red flag of trust issues between the two of them.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2023 21:25:49 GMT -5
I REALLY wish they would have stayed broken up. Not just because it would have avoided the gross mess of Squirrelflight's Hope and now whatever is going on in ASC. But because it would have been such better story telling to have them overcome what happened between them and reconcile not as mates again but as friends and maybe even a strong leader/deputy duo that has a newfound understanding of one another.
Though maybe still not deputy and leader. Since that still paves way for some of the ridiculousness we've had to read about.
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Post by dahliadove - #1 nightpelt fan on May 24, 2023 22:31:34 GMT -5
No, not really. Might be biased because I'm a huge Squirrelflight fan, but if Bramble could disown them on the spot because of what Squilf did (note because of what Squilf did - the Three did nothing wrong, and yet he chose to disown them because of something that they are equally shocked by), then I don't think he'd have taken in the kits as adopted and still treated them as his kits if he knew about the lie. Even if he said he would've helped, it doesn't mean he actually would have. Kept the lie, maybe, but be a good father? Don't think so. At least he was proud of them when he thought they were his.
Also, if Brambleclaw knew I don't think it would prevent the events of the fire happening. Brambleclaw, as the clan deputy, would also be faulted for keeping the lie and probably lose his position. Obviously the kits and Leafpool are the priority here but in case any Bramble fans aren't convinced yet, there you go
Edit: I saw what you said about Bramble being judged before and I definitely agree - cats already had bias against him because of his father, every single cat finding out that he lied about a medicine cat's kits and raised them as his own? On top of his already bad reputation because of Tigerstar, he'd be judged to hell. I feel like he'd be targetted.
please note that despite my opinions on brambleclaw, i feel like he was definitely right to be mad at squirrelflight. but not right to be mad at the three, he was wrong for that
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Post by cable on May 24, 2023 23:03:25 GMT -5
i feel like this is a “i cant really fault anybody” situation. squirrel was told by Basically God to keep the secret, and was begged by leafpool. she felt a lot of pressure both from higher powers and the sister she loved deeply. even so, brambleclaw had a right to feel betrayed. its a huge thing to keep secret, and he was already worried in the past that squirrel didnt trust him. its like. a moral gray to me? i dont think its as easy as “x is the bad guy”.
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All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 24, 2023 23:30:29 GMT -5
Regarding StarClan, I feel like it's worth noting that not only did they lie to Squirrelflight, but they also never really offered any other alternative, so it's likely she saw telling Brambleclaw as not even being an option, along with the implication that something bad would happen to the kits if the secret wasn't kept. The fact that she didn't even agree to take them until after the kits were born, when Feathertail—a cat she had known and trusted—came, should be telling.
Could she have said no? Well, yeah. And again, she tried to. But I also feel like this is really underestimating the kind of hold religion has over, well, the religious, and that includes the so-called wise warriors of StarClan. Along with her fear that Leafpool was going to leave again had nothing else been done on top of Mousefur calling a Clan meeting precisely to discuss ThunderClan becoming too "mixed" not that long ago, it's easy to see why Squirrelflight took the actions she did. If StarClan had told her she could've at least discussed it with Brambleclaw, then maybe things could've been different.
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Post by Sphinxwhisker on May 25, 2023 0:51:13 GMT -5
I sympathize with the position she was placed in. Being told you’ll never have children is a harsh reality indeed. And then immediately followed by being pressured into taking care of your sisters kids, and being responsible with keeping their origins a secret from them is certainly a lot to digest. However, her not telling Brambleclaw? I probably couldn’t be anymore unsympathetic. There’s honestly nothing barring her from telling him, besides presumably her not having enough with in him to keep it secret? Which why get together with him if she was never going to fully trust him ever?. And saying Starclan is partially responsible from their meddling playing a role in her decision to withhold telling Brambleclaw about the 3 is an invalid argument imo.
Starclan’s instructions to recap for the sake of the discussion was that
~ the 3 must be raised in Thunderclan ~ and their origins must remain a secret to the 3, And the other clans.
There’s absolutely no specifying nobody else could be told the secret. clearly they couldn’t tell everyone, as that’d make chances of the 3 discovering their origins through it slipping out from gossip, same with the other clans. But they’d easily could have told a select few they were closest to( e.g their parents, and Brambleclaw) without any complications. Really just boils down to her not trusting Brambleclaw enough, and deciding not to tell him. As there’s 0 empirical evidence that would suggest she was forbidden too. And any explanation by Squirrelflight that she did it to protect his reputation, just comes off as her attempting to rationalize her decision, so she’d feel less guilty for something she ultimately, deep down knew was wrong imho. Am I mad at her? Well, I can say if it personally happened to me, I’d be beyond livid, and likely would never forgive the person. And believe she deserved everything she received in the aftermath, because ultimately she royally F-ed up, and there’s consequences for that. and she should have taken responsibility for her actions.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 25, 2023 3:26:43 GMT -5
I think people forget that Squirrelflight didn't tell the truth about the three to Bramblestar. She was going to take that to the grave, to be honest. She only told the truth to Ashfur, to save the three from burning alive. And then Hollyleaf silenced him before he could tell everyone the truth at the gathering. In a twist of events, Hollyleaf tells the truth at the gathering. However when Hollyleaf confronts them both and demands them to tell the truth EVEN THEN do they stay quiet. Hence why Hollyleaf thinks of them as cowards, especially Leafpool. So Hollyleaf told the complete truth herself.
Keep in mind this is also coming off the arc where Bramblestar had to literally kill his own brother, and was already dealing with a lot of things. He was treated like absolute dogwater because of his looks alone, and his father's reputation was always going to stain his legacy. He genuinely wanted to move on from that, and had a chance to be a better father than Tigerstar ever was, and settle with his OWN family.
When the truth came out, he was broken. Not because the three weren't his, but because Squirrelflight didn't trust him, she lied to him. She used him. For moons.
He had every right to be upset, confused, and angry. He also didn't "disown" his fully-grown children, he just felt awkward around them, and he wasn't sure how to behave anymore after everything that happened. Their family was now the center of attention and rumors. They were the talk of the town, even in other clans. Imagine, Firestar's own daughter, who is also the deputy's mate lied about the birth of her kits to cover up for his other daughter, who is a medicine cat. And the kits are half-clan. No cat is going to take that normally and especially not Bramblestar considering what he's been through already.
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Post by hazelmaeda on May 25, 2023 22:22:01 GMT -5
I'm shocked more cats involved in this situation didn't turn their backs on StarClan. You'd think Squirrelflight would have been royally pissed about how they had guided her on a path that led to pain, betrayal, and tragedy. As for Leafpool, surely she would have felt similarly, although she had a very strong bond with StarClan and it's hard to see her really staying furious at them.
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All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 25, 2023 22:55:40 GMT -5
I'm shocked more cats involved in this situation didn't turn their backs on StarClan. You'd think Squirrelflight would have been royally pissed about how they had guided her on a path that led to pain, betrayal, and tragedy. As for Leafpool, surely she would have felt similarly, although she had a very strong bond with StarClan and it's hard to see her really staying furious at them. The timing is also important to keep in mind. When Leafpool came back, she was struggling to connect with at all until towards the end of Sunset and LW has Spottedleaf scold her for getting pregnant. On top of that, she was ThunderClan's only medicine cat since Cinderpelt died, something she felt immense guilt over, so she couldn't really afford to turn her back on them even if she wanted to. Squirrelflight though, yeah, it's weird that she wasn't angry. I guess one could argue that she was just happy to be pregnant to feel anything else at the time, but even when we did get her PoV afterwards, there's no resentment whatsoever and the entire thing is never even once alluded to during the trial scene in SqH, which makes me think Kate either wanted to keep things as simple as possible, forgot about it, or maybe just wasn't even aware of it in the first place.
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Post by nowarriornameshere on May 25, 2023 23:16:48 GMT -5
This thread is the first time I ever heard anyone say that Brambleclaw disowned his three kids. Sure, he's not exactly talking to them like father and sons like normal, but I think he at least partially didn't know how to go about it. And the way he throws away his integrity AND what could have been his standing in the Clan to lie about how Hollyleaf and Ashfur's last confrontation ended up makes it clear that he still views them as kids he'd do anything to protect if they're backed into a corner with no defense for themselves. He does erupt at Squirrelflight in TLH about how he feels that they aren't his kids, if I remember correctly, but there is a difference between feeling as though they're "not yours" and outright disowning them. What Frecklewish did to Mapleshade's kits was disowning. Brambleclaw just felt like the truth rendered him no longer eligible to really call the kids his - while still doing what he could to stand for them when they really needed him.
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Villain Enjoyer
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on May 26, 2023 4:45:03 GMT -5
Not anymore, no. And neither is Bramblestar. Although he did have every right to be angry at Squirrelflight for lying to him, she didn't have bad intentions while doing so, even though I'm not exactly sure if she'd ever revealed the truth if it hadn't been for the fire scene. But oh well, the truth always finds a way to come out and so it was just a matter of time, after all.
This happened so long ago and everyone (in-universe) has forgiven her and Leafpool at this point (although I've seen some speculations and even indications myself that Jayfeather has not fully been able to do so but who knows).
What I am getting a bit angry about, is that there are some discussions in other parts of the fandom saying that neither Brambleclaw nor the Three (or anyone else) had a right to be upset over them lying to everyone. The reasoning usually is either that "StarClan manipulated them into lying and thus both Squirrelflight and Leafpool are not at fault" (most people who express this more recent mindset seem to be forgetting that no one besides the two sisters knows that StarClan told them to do this as they've never revealed it to anyone iirc) or the other reasoning is that "both sisters were just trying to protect them and so neither Bramble nor the Three should even have been angry in the first place".
And like, I get that there was a time in the fandom some time ago, where both Squirrelflight and Leafpool were hated by a lot of people, (for various reasons, seemingly including this one the most though), so this could be a late opposite reaction of some people now trying to say that neither sister should've ever been criticized for doing this in the first place "because they had good intentions/were doing the right thing". But like, this situation is more nuanced/complicated than just saying one side was completely in the right/wrong imo.
Personally, I think that Squirrelflight and Leafpool did not have any bad intentions while lying to everyone (and also did get told to do so by StarClan) but their actions still ended up hurting others quite a lot and that is valid and should also be acknowledged and not be downplayed by people. On the other hand, Brambleclaw and the Three had every right to be upset at the two (and would've most likely been so at StarClan as well if they'd ever been informed of their involvment, which they weren't) but I do feel like when it comes debates about wether ornot Brambleclaw's overall behaviour after the reveal and then further on in OotS, oftentimes depends on wether or not people see his side of the story/his thought process/his feelings on the matter (a lot of people don't see it/don't want to see it or just don't care anymore because Bramblestar has become such a hated figure in the fandom in recent years and quite a few people these days spend their time going through the books and react to/interpret his actions without even trying to see or understand his viewpoint, because it's just easier to hate this dude these days).
And no, I'm not saying that Bramblestar was always in the right or something like that (especially not in SqH *shudders*). But in the case of his interactions with Squirrelflight and the Three during OotS, I think there's much more to it than just saying "he used the silent treatment on Squirrelflight and disowned his adopted kits". To me, he was trying to distance himself from Squirrelflight and set up a boundary of him as deputy and her as a warrior in the same Clan between them. Could he have been a bit less cold towards her? Sure. But he was not intentionally trying to control her or use his power (in teems of role/status over her to hurt her, in my opinion. As for the disowning part, I do think him ignoring Lionblaze and Jayfeather for the better part of the fourth arc was not a good look for him. However, that being said, there was the simple reasoning behind it that he felt awkward around them and did not know how to act around them or what his role in their lives was anymore. Although I don't think he disowned/abandoned them outright there tbh. Moreso that he was confused about it and failed to communicate that with/to them. Considering that he lied to protect Hollyleaf in that same arc and also was seen to still be getting along well with Lioblaze and Jayfeather as well as him generally being considered as their father (figure) over Crowfeather, I don't think people are using the word "disown" correctly in this instance since it doesn't really apply (fully).
Sorry that this post is so utterly unnecessarily long btw, I do apologize for that.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on May 26, 2023 4:54:08 GMT -5
This thread is the first time I ever heard anyone say that Brambleclaw disowned his three kids. Sure, he's not exactly talking to them like father and sons like normal, but I think he at least partially didn't know how to go about it. And the way he throws away his integrity AND what could have been his standing in the Clan to lie about how Hollyleaf and Ashfur's last confrontation ended up makes it clear that he still views them as kids he'd do anything to protect if they're backed into a corner with no defense for themselves. He does erupt at Squirrelflight in TLH about how he feels that they aren't his kids, if I remember correctly, but there is a difference between feeling as though they're "not yours" and outright disowning them. What Frecklewish did to Mapleshade's kits was disowning. Brambleclaw just felt like the truth rendered him no longer eligible to really call the kids his - while still doing what he could to stand for them when they really needed him. I assume you meant to say Appledusk instead of Frecklewish?
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Post by nowarriornameshere on May 26, 2023 6:35:06 GMT -5
This thread is the first time I ever heard anyone say that Brambleclaw disowned his three kids. Sure, he's not exactly talking to them like father and sons like normal, but I think he at least partially didn't know how to go about it. And the way he throws away his integrity AND what could have been his standing in the Clan to lie about how Hollyleaf and Ashfur's last confrontation ended up makes it clear that he still views them as kids he'd do anything to protect if they're backed into a corner with no defense for themselves. He does erupt at Squirrelflight in TLH about how he feels that they aren't his kids, if I remember correctly, but there is a difference between feeling as though they're "not yours" and outright disowning them. What Frecklewish did to Mapleshade's kits was disowning. Brambleclaw just felt like the truth rendered him no longer eligible to really call the kids his - while still doing what he could to stand for them when they really needed him. I assume you meant to say Appledusk instead of Frecklewish? No, I meant Frecklewish and how she went from doting on her "nephews and niece" to spitting on them and calling them half-Clan creatures that she wanted zero association with. I don't recall if Partner Of The Year Appledusk ever actually renounced his children; I only remember him cutting things off with Mapleshade.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 27, 2023 15:27:11 GMT -5
I assume you meant to say Appledusk instead of Frecklewish? No, I meant Frecklewish and how she went from doting on her "nephews and niece" to spitting on them and calling them half-Clan creatures that she wanted zero association with. I don't recall if Partner Of The Year Appledusk ever actually renounced his children; I only remember him cutting things off with Mapleshade. At most Appledusk never bothered to learn their names, even when they were dead at his former mate's paws, while he threw her under the bus to save himself. Although I do recall him remarking their whole relationship as a "mistake" which most likely could include the kits as well. So where as it's not as bad as Frecklewish, the cat that actually spent time with them, it's still not the best.
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