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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2023 9:41:59 GMT -5
Opinions can change when the true colors of even a friend are revealed. It makes sense that Thornclaw would see Ashfur differently in Darkness Within than when he (Ashfur) was alive.
As for A Thief in Thunderclan. I guess it's easy enough to say friends can quarrel but also I wouldn't put it past the writers to forget about their friendship.
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 29, 2023 11:01:12 GMT -5
I don't think those things are really mutually exclusive with them being friends. If your friend turned out to be a murderer, you could very easily say something like that with the benefit of hindsight, or that they're easily frustrated or any other personality quirk of theirs. As far as arguing goes, I point you to Graystripe and Firestar nearly coming to blows over Silverstream
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 29, 2023 11:15:08 GMT -5
Like everyone else said, friends argue all the time, especially over petty reasons. Also, I feel like it's important to remember that ThunderClan knew about Ashfur's true nature long before Squirrelflight recapped it in DW. It makes sense for Thornclaw to say something like this if he was already aware of what Ashfur was actually like and had more than enough time to process it.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Apr 29, 2023 21:23:08 GMT -5
I think the others are correct regarding DW.
As for ATiTC, they probably didn't remember. The authors frequently seem to forget previously established friendships once enough real-life time has passed between writing books. Ashfur and Cloudtail were close once as well but it's never acknowledged once TPB wraps up.
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Post by cable on Apr 29, 2023 23:09:21 GMT -5
I think the others are correct regarding DW. As for ATiTC, they probably didn't remember. The authors frequently seem to forget previously established friendships once enough real-life time has passed between writing books. Ashfur and Cloudtail were close once as well but it's never acknowledged once TPB wraps up. my memory of graystripes vow is a little hazy so forgive me if im wrong, but i thiiink it was addressed there, where ashfur expresses spite towards cloudtail over the kidnapped by twolegs incident, with ashfur believing cloudtail tried to become a kittypet again by choice. ashfur has been prejudiced against kittypets even as early as the darkest hour, so it would make sense that ashfur just became cold towards cloudtail over it. regarding atitc, its just an early morning spat. people are more irritable when theyve just got up (ashfur) or if theyve been staying up all night (thornclaw). it doesnt mean they arent friends.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Apr 30, 2023 0:07:02 GMT -5
I think the others are correct regarding DW. As for ATiTC, they probably didn't remember. The authors frequently seem to forget previously established friendships once enough real-life time has passed between writing books. Ashfur and Cloudtail were close once as well but it's never acknowledged once TPB wraps up. my memory of graystripes vow is a little hazy so forgive me if im wrong, but i thiiink it was addressed there, where ashfur expresses spite towards cloudtail over the kidnapped by twolegs incident, with ashfur believing cloudtail tried to become a kittypet again by choice. ashfur has been prejudiced against kittypets even as early as the darkest hour, so it would make sense that ashfur just became cold towards cloudtail over it. i don't that that checks out, since Ashpaw and Cloudpaw are still depicted as friends after the whole kittypet incident. tbh i also don't have a clear memory of what all happened in GV, so i can't comment there. also, i could be wrong about this, but i can't recall a time Ashfur was particularly prejudiced against kittypets. there's that one line in TDH where he sort of scoffs at BloodClan's collars, but to me that was just demonstrating naivete in his assumption that BloodClan would therefore be wimps. other than that, Ashfur never demonstrated noteable anti-kittypet prejudice. so it's kind of weird if GV retroactively added that to his character.
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Post by nowarriornameshere on Apr 30, 2023 2:05:38 GMT -5
my memory of graystripes vow is a little hazy so forgive me if im wrong, but i thiiink it was addressed there, where ashfur expresses spite towards cloudtail over the kidnapped by twolegs incident, with ashfur believing cloudtail tried to become a kittypet again by choice. ashfur has been prejudiced against kittypets even as early as the darkest hour, so it would make sense that ashfur just became cold towards cloudtail over it. i don't that that checks out, since Ashpaw and Cloudpaw are still depicted as friends after the whole kittypet incident. tbh i also don't have a clear memory of what all happened in GV, so i can't comment there. also, i could be wrong about this, but i can't recall a time Ashfur was particularly prejudiced against kittypets. there's that one line in TDH where he sort of scoffs at BloodClan's collars, but to me that was just demonstrating naivete in his assumption that BloodClan would therefore be wimps. other than that, Ashfur never demonstrated noteable anti-kittypet prejudice. so it's kind of weird if GV retroactively added that to his character. He also shits on kittypets in Twilight, I think on the topic of Daisy. When Squirrelflight gets pissed and brings up Firestar, he apologetically replies that Firestar's special and shouldn't be considered an argument against his claim.
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Post by αɳσɱαʅყ on Apr 30, 2023 2:45:34 GMT -5
i don't that that checks out, since Ashpaw and Cloudpaw are still depicted as friends after the whole kittypet incident. tbh i also don't have a clear memory of what all happened in GV, so i can't comment there. also, i could be wrong about this, but i can't recall a time Ashfur was particularly prejudiced against kittypets. there's that one line in TDH where he sort of scoffs at BloodClan's collars, but to me that was just demonstrating naivete in his assumption that BloodClan would therefore be wimps. other than that, Ashfur never demonstrated noteable anti-kittypet prejudice. so it's kind of weird if GV retroactively added that to his character. He also shits on kittypets in Twilight, I think on the topic of Daisy. When Squirrelflight gets pissed and brings up Firestar, he apologetically replies that Firestar's special and shouldn't be considered an argument against his claim. This discussion I think straddles on whether Ashfur was intentionally written to be prejudiced against kittypets as a part of his character conception or if it's a retcon that happens to have supporting evidence. Nothing about him really stands out as anti-kittypet, or at least not much more than some other cats in ThunderClan. Even if he makes such remarks about Daisy, what he says doesn't really stand out as a real issue because the "kittypets are weak and bad" stance is one that many Clan cats hold and I don't think the authors intended it to be a real part of his character. He was written to have a side on the topic, situationally when the scene needs it, just as the rest of the Clan does. Now, I think it more recent writings of his character DO make his anti-kittypet stance a genuine defining trait of his character, to perhaps make him more unlikable and also tie in the whole "codebreaker" obsession he had(?). But it's a recent development added to Ashfur, so it's more of a retcon.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Apr 30, 2023 9:01:17 GMT -5
i don't that that checks out, since Ashpaw and Cloudpaw are still depicted as friends after the whole kittypet incident. tbh i also don't have a clear memory of what all happened in GV, so i can't comment there. also, i could be wrong about this, but i can't recall a time Ashfur was particularly prejudiced against kittypets. there's that one line in TDH where he sort of scoffs at BloodClan's collars, but to me that was just demonstrating naivete in his assumption that BloodClan would therefore be wimps. other than that, Ashfur never demonstrated noteable anti-kittypet prejudice. so it's kind of weird if GV retroactively added that to his character. He also shits on kittypets in Twilight, I think on the topic of Daisy. When Squirrelflight gets pissed and brings up Firestar, he apologetically replies that Firestar's special and shouldn't be considered an argument against his claim. uhh… wasn’t that Brambleclaw? Ashfur actually defended Daisy and her kits joining the clan.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 30, 2023 12:18:02 GMT -5
Okay, so regarding Ashfur and his feelings on kittypets, while he does do it in GV, it should be noted that pretty much most of the Clan was doing it when they all thought Firestar and Sandstorm had abandoned them (including Cloudtail himself), but Graystripe, Cinderpelt, and even Sandstorm herself had thought the same of Firestar before he told them what was actually going on (his SkyClan dreams). Now, with all that said, here are all the times Ashfur specifically more or less sneers at kittypets. The Darkest HourFirestar's QuestMoonriseTwilightGraystripe's Vow
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Post by Katanaheart on Apr 30, 2023 12:47:57 GMT -5
Okay, so regarding Ashfur and his feelings on kittypets, while he does do it in GV, it should be noted that pretty much most of the Clan was doing it when they all thought Firestar and Sandstorm had abandoned them (including Cloudtail himself), but Graystripe, Cinderpelt, and even Sandstorm herself had thought the same of Firestar before he told them what was actually going on (his SkyClan dreams). Now, with all that said, here are all the times Ashfur specifically more or less sneers at kittypets. The Darkest HourFirestar's QuestMoonriseTwilightGraystripe's VowWith most of these instances being Cloudtail related, it seems Ashfur took Cloudpaw running off and eating kittypet food very hard. (Not to mention Cloudtail was technically kidnapped as a kittypet for a short while as well which likely didn’t help matters.) Add on Cloudtail earning his name early, it’s no wonder he’s projected a lot as his foster brother hasn’t done the best things in his eyes. (Add onto the fact his mentor was Dustpelt, it makes sense his opinion of kittypets treaded more on the sour line.)
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Post by nowarriornameshere on Apr 30, 2023 15:21:06 GMT -5
He also shits on kittypets in Twilight, I think on the topic of Daisy. When Squirrelflight gets pissed and brings up Firestar, he apologetically replies that Firestar's special and shouldn't be considered an argument against his claim. uhh… wasn’t that Brambleclaw? Ashfur actually defended Daisy and her kits joining the clan. There's a specific moment when he comments that kittypets will never fit in and Squirrelflight whirls on him.
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Post by Hollyfall on Apr 30, 2023 18:03:36 GMT -5
Okay, so regarding Ashfur and his feelings on kittypets, while he does do it in GV, it should be noted that pretty much most of the Clan was doing it when they all thought Firestar and Sandstorm had abandoned them (including Cloudtail himself), but Graystripe, Cinderpelt, and even Sandstorm herself had thought the same of Firestar before he told them what was actually going on (his SkyClan dreams). Now, with all that said, here are all the times Ashfur specifically more or less sneers at kittypets. The Darkest HourFirestar's QuestMoonriseTwilightGraystripe's VowWith most of these instances being Cloudtail related, it seems Ashfur took Cloudpaw running off and eating kittypet food very hard. (Not to mention Cloudtail was technically kidnapped as a kittypet for a short while as well which likely didn’t help matters.) Add on Cloudtail earning his name early, it’s no wonder he’s projected a lot as his foster brother hasn’t done the best things in his eyes. (Add onto the fact his mentor was Dustpelt, it makes sense his opinion of kittypets treaded more on the sour line.) I think Cloudtail is that "black friend" Ashfur has. In real life, Ashfur's the kind of guy to go "I can't be racist, I'm friends with [minority group]!" (his comment about Firestar being special in Twilight is exactly what I'm talking about) and is in general just extremely xenophobic. Look at what he says about Tree and calling Hawkwing's grandkids not "pure blooded". I'm pretty sure he makes similar comments to other cats who aren't Clanborn or have mixed heritage as well. Of course, the predjudice seems to something he might have picked up from Dustpelt, but even Dustpelt lessened it over the years when more non-Clan cats got indoctrinated into TC. Ashfur? Not really.
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Post by αɳσɱαʅყ on May 1, 2023 5:21:52 GMT -5
Okay, so regarding Ashfur and his feelings on kittypets, while he does do it in GV, it should be noted that pretty much most of the Clan was doing it when they all thought Firestar and Sandstorm had abandoned them (including Cloudtail himself), but Graystripe, Cinderpelt, and even Sandstorm herself had thought the same of Firestar before he told them what was actually going on (his SkyClan dreams). Now, with all that said, here are all the times Ashfur specifically more or less sneers at kittypets. The Darkest HourFirestar's QuestMoonriseTwilightGraystripe's VowThere you go again, conjuring warrior cats quotes like rabbits from a top hat. I know magicians aren't supposed to reveal their secrets..... but how do you find these so quickly? and yeah I am inclined to agree with you, that Ashfur's snide remarks about kittypets aren't out of the ordinary for the Clan and the situational factors. At least, pre-GV. The "once a kittypet always a kittypet" is leagues more hostile than the usual "uhh are we sure a KITTYPET can be a clan cat", and is almost reminiscent of Darkstripe or Tigerclaw's hostility towards Fireheart. Probably a retcon.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 1, 2023 9:47:52 GMT -5
Okay, so regarding Ashfur and his feelings on kittypets, while he does do it in GV, it should be noted that pretty much most of the Clan was doing it when they all thought Firestar and Sandstorm had abandoned them (including Cloudtail himself), but Graystripe, Cinderpelt, and even Sandstorm herself had thought the same of Firestar before he told them what was actually going on (his SkyClan dreams). Now, with all that said, here are all the times Ashfur specifically more or less sneers at kittypets. The Darkest HourFirestar's QuestMoonriseTwilightGraystripe's VowThere you go again, conjuring warrior cats quotes like rabbits from a top hat. I know magicians aren't supposed to reveal their secrets..... but how do you find these so quickly? and yeah I am inclined to agree with you, that Ashfur's snide remarks about kittypets aren't out of the ordinary for the Clan and the situational factors. At least, pre-GV. The "once a kittypet always a kittypet" is leagues more hostile than the usual "uhh are we sure a KITTYPET can be a clan cat", and is almost reminiscent of Darkstripe or Tigerclaw's hostility towards Fireheart. Probably a retcon. I feel like the bit where Ashfur talks about Cloudtail willingly going back to the Twolegs when no one else had even brought it up is already about on that level, I recall Darkstripe saying similar things in the first arc. It's the exact same mindset as the Graystripe's Vow lines, just slightly more oblique about it.
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Post by halogen on May 9, 2023 16:41:55 GMT -5
Like everyone else said, friends argue all the time, especially over petty reasons. Also, I feel like it's important to remember that ThunderClan knew about Ashfur's true nature long before Squirrelflight recapped it in DW. It makes sense for Thornclaw to say something like this if he was already aware of what Ashfur was actually like and had more than enough time to process it. What I've always been confused at is how when Bramblestar covered for Hollyleaf in OOTS by saying she killed Ashfur in self-defense, no one seemed to be shocked or skeptical that Ashfur would do such a thing then, not even the cats who were closest to him. I would think if someone says a cat in your community who you trusted was actually an attempted murderer, especially if the claim is under suspiciously convenient circumstances of exonerating your daughter, it would get more shocked reactions and pushback.
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Post by Flamefrost on May 10, 2023 10:11:22 GMT -5
Ashfur was a once nice kid who grew up to be a bitter creep. None of this is unrealistic, most people change when they grow up. I don't think he was born or made evil, he became one out of his own volition, and I think that makes him a great villain like Clear Sky and Sol.
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