xshadowstormx
Greetings 👽 new to forums & happy to finally have friends to talk about Warriors with 🎉
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Post by xshadowstormx on Feb 11, 2023 20:51:55 GMT -5
Am I the only one who thought Ashfur wasn't originally supposed to be an evil character?
It's been a while since I've read the books where Squirrelflight and Ashfur were a thing, but my interpretation was always that Squirrelflight led him on. It always seemed to me like she was using him to make Bramblestar jealous and always had one paw in both relationships, never intending to be Ashfur's mate. So I sympathize with Ashfur and I can see why it would make sense to him to lash out at the kits he thought of as the living symbolism of Squirrelflight's betrayal.
But I feel like if Ashfur had the kind of evil within to do the things he did in TBC it would've been obvious early on in his life, like with Tigerfirst. In Graystripe's SE they even retrospectively try to make it seem like Ashfur was difficult and troubled back in the old forest, but I don't remember him ever being portrayed that way until now, conveniently.
Overall I feel like unrequited love was a weak motivation for a villain of this scale, and the role of villain Ashfur should've been saved for Tigerfirst or Thistleclaw or something. It didn't make sense for a previously good cat to want to destroy existence and the afterlife and all of the clans over... Squirrelflight.
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Feb 11, 2023 23:05:14 GMT -5
No, Squirrelflight didn't use Ashfur to make Brambleclaw jealous! Not only was this confirmed by Vicky herself, but we literally have an entire book on the whole love triangle in which Squirrelflight has a PoV (Twilight). Just because Brambleclaw actually got jealous doesn't mean anything, never mind that it would be extremely OOC for her to be that petty. Squirrelflight even thinks that there could possibly be something with Ashfur, but she wanted to be absolutely sure of her feelings for Brambleclaw first before taking things further. It's not her fault things didn't work out the way Ashfur wanted them to.
Sorry for the rant, I'm not angry at you, just really tired of seeing this claim be made.
And as for Ashfur himself, no, it actually does make sense. Seriously, listen or watch to true crime podcasts or documentaries for a little while, and you'd probably be surprised how many good people just end up snapping one day because they couldn't get their dream job or the person they liked or whatever. Morality isn't black-and-white, it's gray. It's complex, it's a spectrum. And how many times are you going to come across tyrants—not just bigots, tyrants—like Brokenstar or Tigerstar? Not very likely. But Ashfurs? They're, unfortunately, everywhere, and that's exactly what makes him the scariest villain in the series to me.
Maybe Ashfur's turn could've been handled better, but even in the first arc, there really wasn't much going for him other than the fact he loved his family, which included Cloudtail for a time, and was quick to underestimate BloodClan just because they wore collars.
TPB was also originally going to be only one arc, but then it got popular enough to warrant more books, which meant Ashfur gaining more of a personality. And if you read the books in chronological order, there's no reason to think he may have developed a bit of an ego after avenging his parents at such a young age, hence his portrayal in GV. It was also already established that he wasn't very fond of outsiders and Graystripe had just been made deputy despite not having been in the Clan for very long, on top of the position having once belonged to his father Whitestorm, so if we look at it from his perspective, his resentment makes sense.
So what about TNP? Well, he mellowed out. That is, until he fell for Squirrelflight and became protective of her, which again, makes sense, considering he's already lost kin in the past and life in the wild is already hard as is. But then she chooses the son of his mother's murderer and slowly starts to snap, only managing to nearly kill her kits seasons later because of opportunity and tried to get revenge a second time because of opportunity.
Also, even if none of this was the case, nothing justifies him lashing out at Squirrelflight's kits—never mind trying to murder them—regardless of his past with her. They were completely innocent.
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Post by dahliadove - #1 nightpelt fan on Feb 11, 2023 23:17:09 GMT -5
he tried to murder 3 people over a relationship that lasted a week and ended 5 years ago im pretty sure he's evil
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Post by nowarriornameshere on Feb 12, 2023 0:02:41 GMT -5
Not always. He was portrayed as likable, loyal, and brave enough in the first series, which itself was supposed to be self-contained.
The change was likely meant to be initiated around halfway through the second series, when the Erins decided that Brambleclaw and Squirrelflight needed a romantic rift. Can't say for sure around when they decided he was going from unlucky suitor to butthurt incel, but it was at least by Sunset. Birchpaw's message that led Firestar into the trap, Ashfur appearing on the scene to frame Brambleclaw, and Hawkfrost claiming Firestar's assassination attempt was an inside job makes it clear that it had to be him. And Lionpaw's apprenticeship makes it pretty clear that Ashfur is totally still asshurt behind the friendly, responsible facade.
Though it is worth noting that he was granted StarClan and that they outright tried to wave it off with "he loved too much". Part of me feels like they REALLY wanted a dramatic parentage reveal for the Three and a leadup to a catastrophic Season 1 finale for that arc, and Ashfur was very convenient for that setup. If I remember correctly, it has been stated in an official capacity that the fire scene was written almost before anything else in the Power of Three. So they set him up as a vengeful incel in Sunset, spring the surprise, get him murdered, and then sweep him into the dusting pan.
I think they eventually realized that nobody was accepting "he only loved too much", thought about it, and decided to take that elsewhere. I've said it before, but I think the Erins have a somewhat warped and sometimes unhealthy perception of love that manifest in their writing. It smacks of some of the worst shoujo manga tropes, but framed in Western literature about talking cats. So they genuinely thought making him a tragic villain made sense, and went back and took advantage of some untread ground to slip seem seeds hinting at him always being bad in his past while going on to create his future as the tyrannical Elliot overlord of ghosts.
Tl;Dr: definitely not when his character was conceived. They decided they'd make him a "tragic" villain starting around Sunset. And then they finally decided to drop the tragic part and embraced the idea of a deranged incel wreaking havoc from beyond the grave starting with the conception of TBC.
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Post by Yoshimi on Feb 12, 2023 0:33:31 GMT -5
Always thought the Erin’s didn’t plan that far ahead, Ashpaw and Ashfur are so drastically different Ashpaw baiting the dogs was his shining moment. Picked Ashfur to be the villain only because there was no one else. Swiftpaw was killed and Cloudpaw was Firestars nephew and was with Brightheart. Also made Ashfur sympathizing thread back in 2016! wcrpforums.com/thread/4445/ashfur
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Post by Hollyfall on Feb 12, 2023 1:32:20 GMT -5
no he just loved too much
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Post by Hollyfall on Feb 12, 2023 1:50:54 GMT -5
Maybe Ashfur's turn could've been handled better, but even in the first arc, there really wasn't much going for him other than the fact he loved his family, which included Cloudtail for a time, and was quick to underestimate BloodClan just because they wore collars. TPB was also originally going to be only one arc, but then it got popular enough to warrant more books, which meant Ashfur gaining more of a personality. And if you read the books in chronological order, there's no reason to think he may have developed a bit of an ego after avenging his parents at such a young age, hence his portrayal in GV. It was also already established that he wasn't very fond of outsiders and Graystripe had just been made deputy despite not having been in the Clan for very long, on top of the position having once belonged to his father Whitestorm, so if we look at it from his perspective, his resentment makes sense. So what about TNP? Well, he mellowed out. That is, until he fell for Squirrelflight and became protective of her, which again, makes sense, considering he's already lost kin in the past and life in the wild is already hard as is. But then she chooses the son of his mother's murderer and slowly starts to snap, only managing to nearly kill her kits seasons later because of opportunity and tried to get revenge a second time because of opportunity. Also, even if none of this was the case, nothing justifies him lashing out at Squirrelflight's kits—never mind trying to murder them—regardless of his past with her. They were completely innocent. One of the things I was really impressed by in TBC and GV is that the editors did their research into Ashfur's almost nonexistent personality back then, and built off it so it was at least believable. They remembered he was very xenophobic and prejudiced, was immensely possessive of Squirrelflight, constantly manipulated, guilted, and argued with things he didn't like or to try and get his way. I think his downfall from an arrogant but still well-meaning warrior to an omnicidal incel works because he was such a minor character, but that's just me.
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Post by nowarriornameshere on Feb 12, 2023 1:56:34 GMT -5
I do think that the decision to turn Ashfur into his incel self was a later addition by the Erins. From what I remember, there weren't many hints that he would turn into such a terrible cat when he was a young apprentice. But it works for Ashfur. Just being a nice cat/person in the beginning doesn't mean you can't change later on in life. And Squirrel letting him down was a perfect catalyst for his change. I voted for no, but I'm in favor of him becoming evil despite his early personality being relatively innocent. I also don't think it was Squirrelflight's (or anyone's) fault besides his own. He could've worked through his jealousy in a healthier way, but instead he chose to nearly murder three cats who weren't even involved in the actual relationship. I can't blame Squirrelflight for that, even if her actions could be interpreted as "leading him on" (I don't have a stance on that part since I don't remember the exact details of TNP). I guess it's important to ask and define what it means to "lead someone on". Like, let the guy think he has a chance? If it's as simple as that, yeah, Squirrelflight definitely led him on. Does it mean to make promises of a future together that you back out on? Something like that, Squirrelflight never did. But if it's the former, then I don't even think that "leading someone on" is necessarily a bad thing. Anyone who's ever been in a relationship has "led someone on" if it's as easy as "let them think they had a chance".
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Post by NightFrostSun on Feb 12, 2023 8:07:47 GMT -5
From the start there always was something off with Ashfur. Just like Mapleshade there was a selfish, petty meanness to them. They held grievances and didn’t care who they hurt in order to get their way.
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Feb 12, 2023 10:09:09 GMT -5
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 already worded everything perfectly in regards to Ashfur's development and that "Squirrelflight led Ashfur on to make Bramblestrar jealous" take which has already been proven to be false so many times at this point (moreso in the fandom but also in-universe by Squirrelflight's own thoughts and words). Here's just another bit of info about why Ashfur got a bigger role in the series after TPB. So, according to Vicky Holmes, Ashfur was not chosen to love Squirrelflight for any specific/special reason (outside of what is written in this post by her): This screenshot can be found on the Warrior Cats Wiki under Ashfur's Trivia page as a seperate link. The actual post on Facebook itself is no longer available for public viewing though (either restricted to her followers or it just got deleted altogether). Here's Ashfur's trivia page: warriors.fandom.com/wiki/Ashfur_(TC)/Trivia
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Post by vectoring34 on Feb 12, 2023 10:13:12 GMT -5
The shift to Ashfur being a darker character begins in TNP. Even before Squirrelflight returns to the clans, he's already become kind of a sneering character akin to Dustpelt and Mousefur, but even more pronounced. Notably of the group, he's the one who suggests Cloudtail left the clan for kittypet food in a rather callous fashion. Now this doesn't necessarily mean villain lead-up, but the seeds were present in the author's mind that he's sort of a judgy, haughty cat. This almost certainly is why he was made to be Squirrelflight's fake pairing, and by the time that he's helped Hawkfrost murder Firestar, he's transitioned into full-on villain status. However, I do believe it is true that at this time, he wasn't considered to be as evil as he is now, and the authors seemed to be operating under the idea that he was a sympathetic villain who only loved too much. That then marks the final transition to his current characterization, which doesn't really involve any change to Ashfur himself so much as it does the reaction of other characters to him, as they no longer justify him and instead condemn his actions.
In short, the author's perspectives appear to be
TPB Ashfur: Basically a nothing side-character, seems to fit well with Dustpelt Early TNP Ashfur: Kind of a bigger jerk than the other clan cats, even more than his mentor Late TNP and PoT Ashfur: Opportunistic villain, who will do terrible things when given the chance and pushed too far, but would ordinarily have been nice if appeased with love. TBC Ashfur: Obsessive villain, nothing would ever have been good enough to appease him.
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Post by Shadowfire on Feb 12, 2023 10:19:36 GMT -5
I think Ashfur did what any other cat would do (when he was alive) But about he did in his afterlife crossed the line and he can be consider evil (Spoiler because this is a very personal thought) If Squirrelflight had choose Ashfur, things would be better. Brambleclaw never was a good choice to her, i don't see chemical on them I totally refuse to think ashfur did all the things on TBC just for love.
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Post by vectoring34 on Feb 12, 2023 10:40:45 GMT -5
I think Ashfur did what any other cat would do (when he was alive) But about he did in his afterlife crossed the line and he can be consider evil (Spoiler because this is a very personal thought) If Squirrelflight had choose Ashfur, things would be better. Brambleclaw never was a good choice to her, i don't see chemical on them I totally refuse to think ashfur did all the things on TBC just for love. Thrushpelt, Bumblestripe, Leafpool, Sunbeam, Bristlefrost, and many others didn't do what Ashfur did when spurned by their loves.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2023 10:40:53 GMT -5
I think Ashfur did what any other cat would do (when he was alive) I don't think "any other cat" would have tried to A: Team up with another cat to kill Firestar, and B: Try to burn three cats alive, all because they were rejected. Cats like Bristlefrost and Bumblestripe sure as heck didn't.
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Post by vectoring34 on Feb 12, 2023 10:41:41 GMT -5
I think Ashfur did what any other cat would do (when he was alive) I don't think "any other cat" would have tried to A: Team up with another cat to kill Firestar, and B: Try to burn three cats alive, all because they were rejected. Cats like Bristlefrost and Bumblestripe sure as heck didn't. Fanon Bumblestripe vs Canon Bumblestripe moment
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2023 10:50:45 GMT -5
I really thought we had put the "Ashfur did nothing wrong" discussions behind us. If we're talking about "Was Ashfur evil from the beginning" (i.e TPB) then no I would say something like this wasn't planned until they were writing TNP. But his actions (alive AND dead) are still downright atrocious and evil.
I also hate hearing the excuse "well he was lead on so of course he did these things!" What? For one, he canonically wasn't lead on. And let's just say for examples sake that he was. In what world does that excuse murder? Not only murder, the murder of four innocent cats. Being lead on (which he was not) would have been terrible and gross on Squirrelflight's part, absolutely, but it still doesn't excuse murder.
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Feb 12, 2023 12:00:06 GMT -5
Maybe Ashfur's turn could've been handled better, but even in the first arc, there really wasn't much going for him other than the fact he loved his family, which included Cloudtail for a time, and was quick to underestimate BloodClan just because they wore collars. TPB was also originally going to be only one arc, but then it got popular enough to warrant more books, which meant Ashfur gaining more of a personality. And if you read the books in chronological order, there's no reason to think he may have developed a bit of an ego after avenging his parents at such a young age, hence his portrayal in GV. It was also already established that he wasn't very fond of outsiders and Graystripe had just been made deputy despite not having been in the Clan for very long, on top of the position having once belonged to his father Whitestorm, so if we look at it from his perspective, his resentment makes sense. So what about TNP? Well, he mellowed out. That is, until he fell for Squirrelflight and became protective of her, which again, makes sense, considering he's already lost kin in the past and life in the wild is already hard as is. But then she chooses the son of his mother's murderer and slowly starts to snap, only managing to nearly kill her kits seasons later because of opportunity and tried to get revenge a second time because of opportunity. Also, even if none of this was the case, nothing justifies him lashing out at Squirrelflight's kits—never mind trying to murder them—regardless of his past with her. They were completely innocent. One of the things I was really impressed by in TBC and GV is that the editors did their research into Ashfur's almost nonexistent personality back then, and built off it so it was at least believable. They remembered he was very xenophobic and prejudiced, was immensely possessive of Squirrelflight, constantly manipulated, guilted, and argued with things he didn't like or to try and get his way. I think his downfall from an arrogant but still well-meaning warrior to an omnicidal incel works because he was such a minor character, but that's just me. Same! Honestly, the only things that would've made the Ashfur part of TBC even more great is if Hollyleaf and Yellowfang had made actual appearances—Hollyleaf for obvious reasons, but Yellowfang so she could've actually gotten called out for her "he only loved too much" excuse; I know the website addresses it, but it would've been nice to have seen something similar happen in-universe as well. Instead, we got DotC cameos. And I love DotC, but really.
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Feb 12, 2023 12:00:24 GMT -5
I think Ashfur did what any other cat would do (when he was alive) But about he did in his afterlife crossed the line and he can be consider evil I totally refuse to think ashfur did all the things on TBC just for love. What is this even supposed to mean? That Ashfur would be upset with Squirrelflight after experiencing heartbreak? Sure. Not everyone is going to be a Thrushpelt, as ideal as that would be. Because if you're referring to the fact that he had attempted murder—not even once, but twice—again, Thrushpelt, among several others. I also don't get what you mean by refusing to believe his motives. He already tried to kill Firestar and Squirrelflight's kits because she wouldn't be with him, why should TBC be any different? Never mind that Ashfur goes on entire rants about it several times after his identity is revealed, thus confirming it himself. And as stated before, Ashfurs exist in real life as well, so it's not like anything he did was unrealistic except for where the supernatural elements are concerned.
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Feb 12, 2023 12:19:35 GMT -5
I think Ashfur did what any other cat would do (when he was alive) But about he did in his afterlife crossed the line and he can be consider evil (Spoiler because this is a very personal thought) If Squirrelflight had choose Ashfur, things would be better. Brambleclaw never was a good choice to her, i don't see chemical on them I totally refuse to think ashfur did all the things on TBC just for love. "Why are you all so full of yourselves? ThunderClan was just the same when I was alive. So smug. Just like you are now. You all think you're so loyal, but when Squirrelflight dumped me for Bramblestar, none of my Clanmates stood by me. Not one. But I showed them. I ruled them all. They did whatever I told them to do. They exiled their Clanmates and fought each other, just to please me. And yet Squirrelflight still didn't appreciate how powerful I was. She acted like I was an ordinary warrior. She dismissed me like an apprentice. But I didn't give up. I brought her here. I thought we could be mates at last. I thought we could rule the Dark Forest together. [...] To be with me, of course. But she only wanted Bramblestar. [...] I'm going to destroy more than the Clans. I'm going to destroy the Dark Forest and StarClan along with it. StarClan can't survive without the Dark Forest. This place is no more than a miserable reflection of StarClan, and as it vanishes, so will StarClan. I bet it's already started. The fog will be swallowing up their precious hunting grounds. They have so much territory, they probably haven't even noticed yet—but, when they do, they won't be able to stop it. Once this place is gone. StarClan won't be far behind. It won't be long until they've all disappeared. Once the Dark Forest is gone, I'll be free to return to the lake. I'll make Squirrelflight suffer. She'll pay for betraying me, along with every cat she's ever cared about. Eventually she'll beg me to stop and become my mate. I wonder how many cats will have to suffer before she—" — Ashfur to Rootspring while in the Dark Forest in A Light in the Mist, page 108-111 This (long-ass) speech by Ashfur himself proves that he literally pulled all of the shit he did because of his beyond messed up twisted "love" for obsession with Squirrelflight.
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All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Feb 12, 2023 12:45:18 GMT -5
Oh, another thing about GV! Think about what was happening at the time: Longtail had been blinded by a rabbit and forced to retire early, Willowpelt had been killed by a badger, and then Firestar and Sandstorm just up and leave for reasons no one but Graystripe and Cinderpelt—and even they had feared the worst when Firestar was being so secretive until he told them and Sandstorm about SkyClan. It's easy to see why he'd be so on edge when keeping FQ in mind, even being reluctant to let Smudge go after he and Brambleclaw attack him for trespassing. To him, it probably seemed like Firestar and Sandstorm didn't care enough to stay, with so much happening in so little time.
So then who's left to lead them? A former traitor who hadn't even been with them for very long—who'd only returned after he'd been exiled by a rival Clan—before he'd been named his father's replacement during a battle that was still so recent. And though we don't see Ashfur's relationship with his half-siblings but we know him to be devoted to his family, I don't think it's a stretch to say that he probably felt grief on behalf of them as well, especially since Sorrelpaw was Sandstorm's apprentice before being given temporarily to Dustpelt, his own former mentor as well as his sister's mate, the cat he longed to be deputy instead of Graystripe.
It's also been established that apprentices tend to take after their mentors, so I feel like that's something to consider as well. And then Squirrelflight rejects him and then it all goes downhill from there.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Feb 12, 2023 13:40:52 GMT -5
his ego from trying to coddle, baby, and control squirrelflight and have her all to himself was so fragile that of course he would be the type to snap and go all incel and evil over it. i wasnt surprised.
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Post by Hollyfall on Feb 12, 2023 16:10:37 GMT -5
I think Ashfur did what any other cat would do (when he was alive) But about he did in his afterlife crossed the line and he can be consider evil (Spoiler because this is a very personal thought) If Squirrelflight had choose Ashfur, things would be better. Brambleclaw never was a good choice to her, i don't see chemical on them I totally refuse to think ashfur did all the things on TBC just for love. Brambleclaw isn't a perfect mate (a discussion for another time) but in what world is Ashfur the better choice? Even when he and Squirrelflight were close he was overly protective and obsessive. When she turns him down, his first response is to try and manipulate her with guilt trips. Then he proceeds to take it out on Squirrelflight and her entire family. Say what you want about Bramblestar but he nowhere near that level of petty and spiteful. Even when they were "together" (possessing Bramblestar) in TBC, Ashfur constantly controlled her, diminished her power and authority, physically assaulted her, and actively endangered her kits and grandchildren! Ashfur might certainly believe he "loves" Squirrelflight, but it's literally pointed out in universe that it's just a very unhealthy obsession.
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xshadowstormx
Greetings 👽 new to forums & happy to finally have friends to talk about Warriors with 🎉
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Post by xshadowstormx on Feb 14, 2023 17:09:38 GMT -5
No, Squirrelflight didn't use Ashfur to make Brambleclaw jealous! Not only was this confirmed by Vicky herself, but we literally have an entire book on the whole love triangle in which Squirrelflight has a PoV ( Twilight). Just because Brambleclaw actually got jealous doesn't mean anything, never mind that it would be extremely OOC for her to be that petty. Squirrelflight even thinks that there could possibly be something with Ashfur, but she wanted to be absolutely sure of her feelings for Brambleclaw first before taking things further. It's not her fault things didn't work out the way Ashfur wanted them to. Sorry for the rant, I'm not angry at you, just really tired of seeing this claim be made. And as for Ashfur himself, no, it actually does make sense. Seriously, listen or watch to true crime podcasts or documentaries for a little while, and you'd probably be surprised how many good people just end up snapping one day because they couldn't get their dream job or the person they liked or whatever. Morality isn't black-and-white, it's gray. It's complex, it's a spectrum. And how many times are you going to come across tyrants—not just bigots, tyrants—like Brokenstar or Tigerstar? Not very likely. But Ashfurs? They're, unfortunately, everywhere, and that's exactly what makes him the scariest villain in the series to me. Maybe Ashfur's turn could've been handled better, but even in the first arc, there really wasn't much going for him other than the fact he loved his family, which included Cloudtail for a time, and was quick to underestimate BloodClan just because they wore collars. TPB was also originally going to be only one arc, but then it got popular enough to warrant more books, which meant Ashfur gaining more of a personality. And if you read the books in chronological order, there's no reason to think he may have developed a bit of an ego after avenging his parents at such a young age, hence his portrayal in GV. It was also already established that he wasn't very fond of outsiders and Graystripe had just been made deputy despite not having been in the Clan for very long, on top of the position having once belonged to his father Whitestorm, so if we look at it from his perspective, his resentment makes sense. So what about TNP? Well, he mellowed out. That is, until he fell for Squirrelflight and became protective of her, which again, makes sense, considering he's already lost kin in the past and life in the wild is already hard as is. But then she chooses the son of his mother's murderer and slowly starts to snap, only managing to nearly kill her kits seasons later because of opportunity and tried to get revenge a second time because of opportunity. Also, even if none of this was the case, nothing justifies him lashing out at Squirrelflight's kits—never mind trying to murder them—regardless of his past with her. They were completely innocent. Hey! Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post I don't have any friends who read warriors so I've never had anyone to bounce these ideas off of, and it's really great to get to read other perspectives on things like this. My interpretation of Squirrelflight's relationship with Ashfur was that she was hoping all along that things would work out with Bramblestar, which is fair, but I feel like you should probably make a choice between moving on and waiting to see what happens before you involve other people(cats?) in things, because it runs a high risk of hurting someone when you begin a relationship with one individual while pining for another. While I think this was a flaw in Squirrelflight's judgement, my real issue is with the series of events it sets off. I listen to true crime on a regular basis and it's something I really enjoy, so I'm familiar with how people can react to situations like the one Ashfur was in. But in situations like that irl, It's usually a very targeted attack on friends, family, or the individual, which is what I meant when I said Ashfur attempting to kill The Three "made sense", because that tracks with real world scenarios and is (unfortunately) a reaction that can be observed in reality. Where I take issue with it is when Ashfur sets out to destroy the afterlife and destroy all of the living clans. When you look at real world events, people who cause destruction and death on this massive of a scale are almost always motivated my manifestos and belief systems (think Hitler, Stalin, etc.) or hunger for power. To me, unrequited love seems like an incredibly unrealistic (and weak) motive for destruction on this massive of a scale. Which is why it seems to me that this role would've been better filled by a Tigerfirst, a "charismatic" leader who was motivated by a desire to create a new empire and install a new belief system. By the way, I really like your theory that he developed an ego after avenging his parents. I could definitely see that being the case and playing a role in his development and eventual downfall. I also agree that his resentment of Graystripe makes sense in the context. And I never thought of Bramblestar as being the son of Ashfur's mother's murderer but that's a really cool perspective because it adds a layer to the whole craziness of the love triangle.
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xshadowstormx
Greetings 👽 new to forums & happy to finally have friends to talk about Warriors with 🎉
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Post by xshadowstormx on Feb 14, 2023 17:22:06 GMT -5
I do think that the decision to turn Ashfur into his incel self was a later addition by the Erins. From what I remember, there weren't many hints that he would turn into such a terrible cat when he was a young apprentice. But it works for Ashfur. Just being a nice cat/person in the beginning doesn't mean you can't change later on in life. And Squirrel letting him down was a perfect catalyst for his change. I voted for no, but I'm in favor of him becoming evil despite his early personality being relatively innocent. I also don't think it was Squirrelflight's (or anyone's) fault besides his own. He could've worked through his jealousy in a healthier way, but instead he chose to nearly murder three cats who weren't even involved in the actual relationship. I can't blame Squirrelflight for that, even if her actions could be interpreted as "leading him on" (I don't have a stance on that part since I don't remember the exact details of TNP). I guess it's important to ask and define what it means to "lead someone on". Like, let the guy think he has a chance? If it's as simple as that, yeah, Squirrelflight definitely led him on. Does it mean to make promises of a future together that you back out on? Something like that, Squirrelflight never did. But if it's the former, then I don't even think that "leading someone on" is necessarily a bad thing. Anyone who's ever been in a relationship has "led someone on" if it's as easy as "let them think they had a chance". Good point! When I was saying she led him on, I meant she chose to pursue a relationship with Ashfur knowing she still had feelings for and was hoping for something with Bramblestar (which is a recipe for disaster). No one can predict how someone will react to anything, so I don't blame Squirrelflight really at all, my stance is more that I sympathize with Ashfur's feelings of betrayal and understand that it's well documented that people are capable of reacting in fatal ways to situations like that. So trying to attack her kits "makes sense", psychologically, when in contrast to his reaction of trying to destroy the entire afterlife, including his own (and Squirrelflight's) immortality.
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Post by fuzzycat on Feb 14, 2023 18:06:31 GMT -5
i'm not sure, didn't vicky say the fire scene was one of the first scenes she came up with? i might be misremembering though.
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Post by vectoring34 on Feb 14, 2023 18:29:32 GMT -5
No, Squirrelflight didn't use Ashfur to make Brambleclaw jealous! Not only was this confirmed by Vicky herself, but we literally have an entire book on the whole love triangle in which Squirrelflight has a PoV ( Twilight). Just because Brambleclaw actually got jealous doesn't mean anything, never mind that it would be extremely OOC for her to be that petty. Squirrelflight even thinks that there could possibly be something with Ashfur, but she wanted to be absolutely sure of her feelings for Brambleclaw first before taking things further. It's not her fault things didn't work out the way Ashfur wanted them to. Sorry for the rant, I'm not angry at you, just really tired of seeing this claim be made. And as for Ashfur himself, no, it actually does make sense. Seriously, listen or watch to true crime podcasts or documentaries for a little while, and you'd probably be surprised how many good people just end up snapping one day because they couldn't get their dream job or the person they liked or whatever. Morality isn't black-and-white, it's gray. It's complex, it's a spectrum. And how many times are you going to come across tyrants—not just bigots, tyrants—like Brokenstar or Tigerstar? Not very likely. But Ashfurs? They're, unfortunately, everywhere, and that's exactly what makes him the scariest villain in the series to me. Maybe Ashfur's turn could've been handled better, but even in the first arc, there really wasn't much going for him other than the fact he loved his family, which included Cloudtail for a time, and was quick to underestimate BloodClan just because they wore collars. TPB was also originally going to be only one arc, but then it got popular enough to warrant more books, which meant Ashfur gaining more of a personality. And if you read the books in chronological order, there's no reason to think he may have developed a bit of an ego after avenging his parents at such a young age, hence his portrayal in GV. It was also already established that he wasn't very fond of outsiders and Graystripe had just been made deputy despite not having been in the Clan for very long, on top of the position having once belonged to his father Whitestorm, so if we look at it from his perspective, his resentment makes sense. So what about TNP? Well, he mellowed out. That is, until he fell for Squirrelflight and became protective of her, which again, makes sense, considering he's already lost kin in the past and life in the wild is already hard as is. But then she chooses the son of his mother's murderer and slowly starts to snap, only managing to nearly kill her kits seasons later because of opportunity and tried to get revenge a second time because of opportunity. Also, even if none of this was the case, nothing justifies him lashing out at Squirrelflight's kits—never mind trying to murder them—regardless of his past with her. They were completely innocent. Hey! Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post I don't have any friends who read warriors so I've never had anyone to bounce these ideas off of, and it's really great to get to read other perspectives on things like this. My interpretation of Squirrelflight's relationship with Ashfur was that she was hoping all along that things would work out with Bramblestar, which is fair, but I feel like you should probably make a choice between moving on and waiting to see what happens before you involve other people(cats?) in things, because it runs a high risk of hurting someone when you begin a relationship with one individual while pining for another. While I think this was a flaw in Squirrelflight's judgement, my real issue is with the series of events it sets off. I listen to true crime on a regular basis and it's something I really enjoy, so I'm familiar with how people can react to situations like the one Ashfur was in. But in situations like that irl, It's usually a very targeted attack on friends, family, or the individual, which is what I meant when I said Ashfur attempting to kill The Three "made sense", because that tracks with real world scenarios and is (unfortunately) a reaction that can be observed in reality. Where I take issue with it is when Ashfur sets out to destroy the afterlife and destroy all of the living clans. When you look at real world events, people who cause destruction and death on this massive of a scale are almost always motivated my manifestos and belief systems (think Hitler, Stalin, etc.) or hunger for power. To me, unrequited love seems like an incredibly unrealistic (and weak) motive for destruction on this massive of a scale. Which is why it seems to me that this role would've been better filled by a Tigerfirst, a "charismatic" leader who was motivated by a desire to create a new empire and install a new belief system. By the way, I really like your theory that he developed an ego after avenging his parents. I could definitely see that being the case and playing a role in his development and eventual downfall. I also agree that his resentment of Graystripe makes sense in the context. And I never thought of Bramblestar as being the son of Ashfur's mother's murderer but that's a really cool perspective because it adds a layer to the whole craziness of the love triangle. I think that Ashfur's destruction of the afterlife has less in common with a dictator's and more in common with a rogue bomber type of guy. He doesn't really have any particular plans beyond attacking the world and existence with as much power and violence as possible. The reason he outwardly resembles a dictator type is because of the immense power he wields, however, that power is something he obtains from being an ascended Starclan messenger cat. The mass violence, even on unrelated targets, is entirely in keeping with many radicalized incel types. Moreover, I don't think in Ashfur's mind (and many of this type of killer) that the seemingly random violence is disconnected from their source of obsession. They view them as having upheld the system that led to their relationship failing, and moreover, think that destroying it will show their former obsession how wrong they were. So within this mindset, he's not attacking unrelated people, he's attacking the very same who led to his being dumped.
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Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
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ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Feb 14, 2023 18:53:17 GMT -5
I guess it's important to ask and define what it means to "lead someone on". Like, let the guy think he has a chance? If it's as simple as that, yeah, Squirrelflight definitely led him on. Does it mean to make promises of a future together that you back out on? Something like that, Squirrelflight never did. But if it's the former, then I don't even think that "leading someone on" is necessarily a bad thing. Anyone who's ever been in a relationship has "led someone on" if it's as easy as "let them think they had a chance". Good point! When I was saying she led him on, I meant she chose to pursue a relationship with Ashfur knowing she still had feelings for and was hoping for something with Bramblestar (which is a recipe for disaster). No one can predict how someone will react to anything, so I don't blame Squirrelflight really at all, my stance is more that I sympathize with Ashfur's feelings of betrayal and understand that it's well documented that people are capable of reacting in fatal ways to situations like that. So trying to attack her kits "makes sense", psychologically, when in contrast to his reaction of trying to destroy the entire afterlife, including his own (and Squirrelflight's) immortality. Squirrelflight and Ashfur were never in a relationship. She acknowledges that there could be something but cuts it off. She has the right to consider, but she also has to right to reject. Your wording does give the vibe that you are blaming Squirrelflight despite the claims you are not.
It may "make sense" that some individuals take things to an extreme way, but that does not excuse their actions. He still attempted murder on multiple cats, caused the death of many others through his actions, and still shows that he is obsessed with Squirrelflight. It's malicious. It's downright disgusting. He did everything knowing it was wrong and did not care.
He may not be the typical evil we encounter in media, but he is an evil in this world that many encounter. I have seen multiple comments about how unsettling his portrayal was compared to individuals who have pulled similar or worse actions. Society is only now really seeing how atrocious this behavior is and only now labeling it as bad. I can see why some may be confused, but it is something that should be acknowledged as what it is.
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xshadowstormx
Greetings 👽 new to forums & happy to finally have friends to talk about Warriors with 🎉
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Post by xshadowstormx on Feb 14, 2023 19:04:44 GMT -5
Hey! Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post I don't have any friends who read warriors so I've never had anyone to bounce these ideas off of, and it's really great to get to read other perspectives on things like this. My interpretation of Squirrelflight's relationship with Ashfur was that she was hoping all along that things would work out with Bramblestar, which is fair, but I feel like you should probably make a choice between moving on and waiting to see what happens before you involve other people(cats?) in things, because it runs a high risk of hurting someone when you begin a relationship with one individual while pining for another. While I think this was a flaw in Squirrelflight's judgement, my real issue is with the series of events it sets off. I listen to true crime on a regular basis and it's something I really enjoy, so I'm familiar with how people can react to situations like the one Ashfur was in. But in situations like that irl, It's usually a very targeted attack on friends, family, or the individual, which is what I meant when I said Ashfur attempting to kill The Three "made sense", because that tracks with real world scenarios and is (unfortunately) a reaction that can be observed in reality. Where I take issue with it is when Ashfur sets out to destroy the afterlife and destroy all of the living clans. When you look at real world events, people who cause destruction and death on this massive of a scale are almost always motivated my manifestos and belief systems (think Hitler, Stalin, etc.) or hunger for power. To me, unrequited love seems like an incredibly unrealistic (and weak) motive for destruction on this massive of a scale. Which is why it seems to me that this role would've been better filled by a Tigerfirst, a "charismatic" leader who was motivated by a desire to create a new empire and install a new belief system. By the way, I really like your theory that he developed an ego after avenging his parents. I could definitely see that being the case and playing a role in his development and eventual downfall. I also agree that his resentment of Graystripe makes sense in the context. And I never thought of Bramblestar as being the son of Ashfur's mother's murderer but that's a really cool perspective because it adds a layer to the whole craziness of the love triangle. I think that Ashfur's destruction of the afterlife has less in common with a dictator's and more in common with a rogue bomber type of guy. He doesn't really have any particular plans beyond attacking the world and existence with as much power and violence as possible. The reason he outwardly resembles a dictator type is because of the immense power he wields, however, that power is something he obtains from being an ascended Starclan messenger cat. The mass violence, even on unrelated targets, is entirely in keeping with many radicalized incel types. Moreover, I don't think in Ashfur's mind (and many of this type of killer) that the seemingly random violence is disconnected from their source of obsession. They view them as having upheld the system that led to their relationship failing, and moreover, think that destroying it will show their former obsession how wrong they were. So within this mindset, he's not attacking unrelated people, he's attacking the very same who led to his being dumped. I wasn't trying to compare him specifically to a dictator, I used dictators as examples because they were the first to come to mind when I was trying to draw an equivalence on that scale of destruction. I can't think of anyone historically who intended to wipe out an entire group of people and destroy and entire system over unrequited loved, which isn't to say it doesn't exist, it just seems incredibly unlikely/rare. Regardless of that factor, I still feel like there are significantly more compelling and captivating motives for such a serious retaliation than unrequited love. It was fine as a motivator for the attack on Firestar and the Three but it seems weak in the context of trying destroy afterlife itself. Especially since, as it's been pointed out, he did at one point seem to care significantly about his family. Destroying the afterlife destroys his own immortality and his chance at immortality with Squirrelflight (since he was delusional enough to think he'd win her over), as well as the immortality of his entire family. I definitely agree with you that Ashfur saw it all as being connected, I just think that that line of motivation gave him a weak foundation and made him an uninteresting villain. But I definitely get your perspective as well!
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xshadowstormx
Greetings 👽 new to forums & happy to finally have friends to talk about Warriors with 🎉
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Post by xshadowstormx on Feb 14, 2023 19:25:52 GMT -5
Good point! When I was saying she led him on, I meant she chose to pursue a relationship with Ashfur knowing she still had feelings for and was hoping for something with Bramblestar (which is a recipe for disaster). No one can predict how someone will react to anything, so I don't blame Squirrelflight really at all, my stance is more that I sympathize with Ashfur's feelings of betrayal and understand that it's well documented that people are capable of reacting in fatal ways to situations like that. So trying to attack her kits "makes sense", psychologically, when in contrast to his reaction of trying to destroy the entire afterlife, including his own (and Squirrelflight's) immortality. Squirrelflight and Ashfur were never in a relationship. She acknowledges that there could be something but cuts it off. She has the right to consider, but she also has to right to reject. Your wording does give the vibe that you are blaming Squirrelflight despite the claims you are not.
It may "make sense" that some individuals take things to an extreme way, but that does not excuse their actions. He still attempted murder on multiple cats, caused the death of many others through his actions, and still shows that he is obsessed with Squirrelflight. It's malicious. It's downright disgusting. He did everything knowing it was wrong and did not care.
He may not be the typical evil we encounter in media, but he is an evil in this world that many encounter. I have seen multiple comments about how unsettling his portrayal was compared to individuals who have pulled similar or worse actions. Society is only now really seeing how atrocious this behavior is and only now labeling it as bad. I can see why some may be confused, but it is something that should be acknowledged as what it is. I agree the Squirrelflight and Ashfur were never explicitly in a relationship, but I think there was enough going on there to reasonably assume that they were in the courtship phase (that is, Ashfur was pursuing her and she was receptive & returning the flirtation). I think better communication on Squirrelflight's behalf would've been the right thing to do from the very beginning so that Ashfur was clear on where she stood. But as I already said, it's been a while since I read those books in particular and there's a good chance that I don't remember it all in its full context. I don't disagree that she has the right to consider but I do think she is in the wrong for not being upfront with Ashfur about it (if that's how that went down). To clarify, what I don't blame Squirrelflight for is Ashfur becoming what he became. But she still bears some of the responsibility for hurting him, so yeah, I blame her for developing a relationship with him and letting believe they'd be mates without addressing the elephant in the room (her feelings for Bramblestar). The problem isn't that she considered someone else, the problem is that she involved Ashfur without knowing where her heart was heading and he got hurt as a result. I don't think there are many people that believe Ashfur's actions were excusable, so I'm not sure why you're bringing that up. What I was saying is that we can observe this reaction in equivalent real life situations. "Makes sense" in the context I used it meant that it tracks as far as being a realistic insane reaction, not that it's an excusable reaction. Again, all of his behavior is realistic insanity up until he starts trying to destroy the afterlife and all that. It's just a disproportionate reaction to the point of being unrealistic and generally not observed to be a motivator for destruction of that scale historically.
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