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Post by Aqua on Dec 31, 2022 0:24:20 GMT -5
Opinions on her?
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Dec 31, 2022 1:34:43 GMT -5
Can't stand her at all. She was grossly manipulative and abusive to Violetshine, and it's glossed over as some sisterly love like???
And then she only regrets her actions after her shitty bf gets himself killed. Had Rain not died, I 100% guarantee she would not have had a change of heart.
Then she gets into StarClan and plays the blame game, as if SHE wasn't a huge reason ShadowClan fell apart like wtf.
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Post by Jaysnow on Dec 31, 2022 2:04:13 GMT -5
Interesting/entertaining and well-written character, but a horrible person. I don't think anything she did in her life warranted sending her to the Dark Forest, though.
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Post by Dancing_Totodile on Dec 31, 2022 3:48:09 GMT -5
She’s a narcissist jerk. Never liked her one bit!
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Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on Dec 31, 2022 4:56:23 GMT -5
I quite like her, but I must admit she is a terrible and manipulative person. She's very entertaining to read about and overall just well-written.
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Post by cygna on Dec 31, 2022 10:55:32 GMT -5
I really like her, she acts like a stupid young adult who's a terrible influence on their younger sibling, which Violetshine is sort of like a little sister to her, but will still die for the people she cares about.
Obviously very flawed, but very fun to read about.
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Post by 🌸🐥silvermoon2🐥🌸 on Dec 31, 2022 13:59:24 GMT -5
I know she acted quite badly, but I liked how she kind of acted like a big sister to Violetshine and took her in, she really seemed to care about her and I really liked that. I thought she was an interesting character to read about and I think shes ok.
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Post by Moonblazer on Dec 31, 2022 20:32:46 GMT -5
I hate her. Except for her sacrifice, she never did anything that wasn't self-serving or manipulative. She was an absolutely garbage "friend" to Violetpaw. This exactly
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2022 20:36:50 GMT -5
I like her a lot. She's a very flawed character but I think that makes her interesting and fun to read about.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Needletail
Dec 31, 2022 20:52:32 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Dec 31, 2022 20:52:32 GMT -5
She's one of my favorite characters.
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Bisexual
#FF00EC
Name Colour
BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ
Villain Enjoyer
Finally reading Wind!
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Jan 1, 2023 6:11:10 GMT -5
Hate her. I agree that she is not exactly a badly written character though. But from her toxic friendship with Violetshine, to her most definitely not changing her mind about the Kin if Rain had still been alive and then her putting all of the blame for the temporary downfall of ShadowClan solely on Rowanclaw without taking any responsibility for her own part in it, makes me really just despise Needletail. Her sacrifice was certainly brave although she managed to further ruin herself in terms of characterization for me afterwards by not taking the blame for her own actions.
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Transgender
🌌dapple🌙 (formerly freckle)
I didn't get thunder yet but the one thing I wonder abt has been spoiled so should I still buy?
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Post by 🌌dapple🌙 (formerly freckle) on Jan 1, 2023 10:07:04 GMT -5
She's a horrible person. Which I could deal with IF the narrative bothered to treat her as such. Instead she's deemed heroic and both POV cats she tags along with (Alderheart and Violetshine) don't call her out enough on her behavior imo. No instead on the pages her shitty behavior is deemed to be out of caring or, because she thought it was the right thing to do, when every action she does seems to counter even the book's defense of her.
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Post by Violet6Echoes on Jan 1, 2023 10:34:21 GMT -5
I don’t like her but I’d probably like her more if more people acknowledged her horribleness. I mean peopl acknowledge it here but on YouTube and a few other social medias people always try to make her relationship with Violetshine seem “cute”
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Post by Hollyfall on Jan 1, 2023 12:18:01 GMT -5
I hate her as a person, but she's well-written. Like, she's undeniably a horrible person but it's entertaining to see how crappy she is.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 1, 2023 18:28:48 GMT -5
she just sucks
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#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Jan 1, 2023 19:45:06 GMT -5
I dislike her.
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Post by Rainfire on Jan 1, 2023 20:14:16 GMT -5
She's awful. I love her so much <3
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Post by Numquam on Jan 1, 2023 20:19:20 GMT -5
She's my favourite character <3
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Bisexual
#FF00EC
Name Colour
BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ
Villain Enjoyer
Finally reading Wind!
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Jan 3, 2023 5:30:24 GMT -5
Really been thinking about this since I reread AVOS recently! I both really like Needletail and dislike a lot of what she did. She was a selfish cat remembered for one selfless act, but I think that’s what makes her such an effective part of AVOS. (See spoiler for full, probably too long explanation) She definitely should be held accountable for her own actions, but she’s also a product of her Clan and her peers in a lot of ways. The Apprentice’s Quest sets up both the good and bad of her character really well. Alderpaw notes right away that there’s something deeply lonely about Needlepaw. Her denmates are pretty much exclusively disrespectful and selfish cats, driven by bitterness towards their older Clanmates. They feel like their leader and senior warriors don’t respect them and always disregard their opinions (which is pretty true from what we see). Rowanstar’s ShadowClan is so disinvested in its apprentices (and in making any attempt towards encouraging them to hold selfless values) that it languidly allows them to fight each other with claws unsheathed, tearing each other apart pointlessly over fresh-kill. Mentors yell at their apprentices and insult them rather than trying to find common ground. Rowanstar dismisses their frustrations out of paw, and the older cats basically tell them they deserve no say in the matter because they’re disrespectful whipper-snappers. (Which they are, but how will they ever be anything else if you keep ignoring and devaluing them?) The apprentices shouldn’t be so selfish. But their Clanmates are partly to blame, in the way they refuse to model the selfless humility they expect, refuse to meet the apprentices halfway. ShadowClan creates a cycle of selfishness. And Needlepaw is deeply aware of these hypocrisies in her Clan. She sees their prejudice against those who think differently. And she sees their prejudice against those who are different, especially outsiders like Tree. She feels isolated and different from her Clanmates, and that helps her identify with and be open to outsiders. In steps Alderpaw. He seems like a kind and accepting friend to her. He likes her because of her differences, not in spite of them. He welcomes her on the quest, values her ideas, and allows her to believe she might be important to all the Clans, including StarClan! But after their disastrous encounter with Darktail and Mistfeather’s murder, Alderpaw is shaken up by feelings of failure, and he becomes impatient and outright dismissive of all her ideas. Worse still, he’s dead set against asking kittypets or loners for help on their return, even when such outsiders are clearly their best hope of getting home. He’s acting just like the older Clanmates she and her friends can’t stand. Worst of all, when they get back to the Clans, Alderpaw goes along with his Clanmates in claiming Violetkit and Twigkit for ThunderClan, prioritizing themselves and dismissing her role in the quest. The one cat who appreciated her, who liked her for who she was, utterly disappoints her. Betrays her, in her eyes. Just like everyone else in her life. Why should she bother caring about other cats, about her older Clanmates, about any of it? Her denmates are right— she has to put herself first, forget hypocritical Clan life that dismisses any cat who thinks differently, who’s born an outsider. Those old flea-pelts’ days are over, and it’s the younger cats’ turn to make ShadowClan their own. Looking out for number one is the only way to make it through a harsh and unforgiving world. And that’s how she heads into Thunder and Shadow. She doesn’t really realize the consequences of such a selfish philosophy until Rain’s death— when one of the few cats she cares about dies while looking out for number one, killed by a cat who’s king at looking out for number one. The cats she saw as Kin would turn on each other for two mouse tails. (Selfishness is truly self-sabotage in AVOS— for Onestar, for Rain, for the young cats of ShadowClan, and ultimately for Darktail.) Violetpaw and Alderheart never give up on Needletail, though. When her world falls apart, when she sees she was wrong about everything— they’re still there for her, loyal to the last, trying to rescue her and the RiverClan prisoners. Needletail realizes their selflessness is her hope. So she gives her life in one final selfless act. She’s a deeply, often frustratingly selfish cat, but that’s sort of what her arc is all about. It’s a major theme of the first half of AVOS, the driving force behind the Kin and Onestar’s behavior. And honestly, it continues in the second half, with Tigerstar and Mistystar’s behavior towards the other Clans. Selfishness is pitted against selflessness time and again. I think I like Needletail so much because she represents that dichotomy. I think it’s fair to say that her one selfless act doesn’t outweigh what she did before, but for me that’s sort of the point. It’s not because she particularly deserved redemption. It’s because Alderheart and Violetpaw never stopped selflessly loving their selfish friend. That’s why she acted the way she did in her final hours. Theirs was the kind of selfless, affirming, unconditional, loving friendship she’d wanted as an apprentice, but had given up hope on… until the very end. And then Needletail turned around in her afterlife and blamed everything on Rowanclaw/star without taking any responsibility for the temporary downfall of ShadowClan herself. Now, I'm not saying she was entirely to be blamed for that whole situation or that Rowanstar himself is completely blameless (because he's not) but that being said, the fact that she shifted everything that went wrong onto Rowanclaw's back when almost every cat (if not actually every cat) in ShadowClan contributed to ShadowClan's downfall at the time in some way or other (including Needlepaw/tail and Rowanstar/claw), just makes it seem as if she never truly learned her lesson/changed her ways and instead simply found someone to put the blame on in death when everything ultimately fell apart for her in life. Another thing to consider is the fact as to how Rowanstar was written/portrayed to be such a rather bad leader so that his son Tigerheart/star (the writing team's darling) could be build up as the ultimate saviour of ShadowClan. But that's a different topic and this thread is about Needletail (who, as I mentioned before, is not a badly written character but just a rather frustrating one to read about instead, at least for me).
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Post by valleylight on Jan 3, 2023 9:31:09 GMT -5
And then Needletail turned around in her afterlife and blamed everything on Rowanclaw/star without taking any responsibility for the temporary downfall of ShadowClan herself. Now, I'm not saying she was entirely to be blamed for that whole situation or that Rowanstar himself is completely blameless (because he's not) but that being said, the fact that she shifted everything that went wrong onto Rowanclaw's back when almost every cat (if not actually every cat) in ShadowClan contributed to ShadowClan's downfall at the time in some way or other (including Needlepaw/tail and Rowanstar/claw), just makes it seem as if she never truly learned her lesson/changed her ways and instead simply found someone to put the blame on in death when everything ultimately fell apart for her in life. Another thing to consider is the fact as to how Rowanstar was written/portrayed to be such a rather bad leader so that his son Tigerheart/star (the writing team's darling) could be build up as the ultimate saviour of ShadowClan. But that's a different topic and this thread is about Needletail (who, as I mentioned before, is not a badly written character but just a rather frustrating one to read about instead, at least for me). Yeah, you’re definitely right. Her attitude and characterization post-Shattered Sky do rule out the hope that she actually learned or changed significantly. Which is a frustratingly futile thematic decision— what was the point of her arc if she took nothing away from it? I think my view is more of my head-canon ideal of what she could have taken away, that isn’t really possible to hold in view of canon.
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Quill
Busy self-actualizing
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Post by Quill on Jan 3, 2023 17:26:14 GMT -5
And then Needletail turned around in her afterlife and blamed everything on Rowanclaw/star without taking any responsibility for the temporary downfall of ShadowClan herself. Now, I'm not saying she was entirely to be blamed for that whole situation or that Rowanstar himself is completely blameless (because he's not) but that being said, the fact that she shifted everything that went wrong onto Rowanclaw's back when almost every cat (if not actually every cat) in ShadowClan contributed to ShadowClan's downfall at the time in some way or other (including Needlepaw/tail and Rowanstar/claw), just makes it seem as if she never truly learned her lesson/changed her ways and instead simply found someone to put the blame on in death when everything ultimately fell apart for her in life. Another thing to consider is the fact as to how Rowanstar was written/portrayed to be such a rather bad leader so that his son Tigerheart/star (the writing team's darling) could be build up as the ultimate saviour of ShadowClan. But that's a different topic and this thread is about Needletail (who, as I mentioned before, is not a badly written character but just a rather frustrating one to read about instead, at least for me). What annoys me is that they kept saying that Rowanstar was a super weak leader, but we never really see him act weak until after Darktail's reign. Like, what exactly did he do to cause so many of his Clan to defect to a rogue? According to Needletail and the other apprentices, it mostly seemed like they were mad they didn't let them do whatever they wanted whenever they wanted. They were frustrated with having to follow the warrior code, which is something that almost any Clan leader would enforce.
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Hyenafang
"I do not support Seaworld or any Marine Parks that exploit Cenaceans!"
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Post by Hyenafang on Jan 7, 2023 1:31:12 GMT -5
I didn't like her much. But I think if she had of had more guidance from cats other than Darktail and his kin, she might have ended up as a decent cat.
I hated how she treated Violetpaw.
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