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Post by vectoring34 on Dec 20, 2022 9:58:41 GMT -5
starlightstoryteller expressed interest in continuing the discussion from Bramblestar or Squirrelflight in another thread, and so it will be done. Now then, Sunstar sexism: He assumed she'd want to take a more active role in her kits' life when he needed a deputy immediately who would focus entirely on the clan. But Sunstar also later tells us that he was never picking Thistleclaw anyway. Bluestar was concerned because it would have damaged her political prospects but it wasn't actually a case of her being prevented. The issue is that typically speaking, parents would be more invested in their kits than on doing politics so quickly. Kidnapping: Sol's last appearance to the lakes was him nearly destroying Shadowclan by manipulating them in bad faith. Yellowfang's first interaction with Firepaw was attacking him, nor was she helpless in her age either (she had the strength to fight off Blackfoot and kill Brokenstar a few times, clearly she was as strong as she ever was). Moreover, Bluestar was curious to know about Shadowclan since Shadowclan had just destroyed Windclan and Yellowfang needed shelter and food at the time. In both these scenarios, it's not remotely as aggressive as just seeing a leader and deputy on the border, preemptively capturing them, and then not even sending any messenger to inform them. It's not true that the Sisters were "already there" either, as they explicitly only came into the area recently. Also, talking about them treating their prisoners better is weird since it's the Sisters who slash open their prisoners whereas I don't recall any instance of clan prisoners being treated so violently. It's made worse because at least the clans can treat infection pretty well, whereas the Sisters seem to not be very good at it, so they could have well killed Leafstar by accident there. Violent culture: The first time we see the Sisters they're determined to intimidate the locals they know nothing about via kidnapping their respected members. Imagine if when the clans went to the Tribe, they casually kidnapped Stoneteller and a high ranking cat in the Tribe and then held them captive; that's how bad of a diplomatic misstep it was, and it was their FIRST idea. No attempt at dialogue beforehand, not even revealing their presence, just hold hostages and get ready to intimidate them. The clans at least talk to each other, at least they have avenues of diplomacy that don't consist of swaggering in with a might=right mentality, capturing the highest rank you can find, and then just sitting with them. Calling them more peaceful than the clans just because they battle less is rather missing the point that the reason they battle less is because they're so big they can intimidate most anyone they find, and when that fails, kidnapping is their first resort. The whole thing relies on fear backed up by implicit violence of what'll happen if the locals don't like what they're doing. Deaths: Lionblaze didn't kill Russetfur, she had a heart attack. The whole thing was literally a Shadowclan smearjob, I don't see why it would be brought up for a long time. As for Oakheart, yeah, that's because Tigerclaw lied and said Oakheart had killed Redtail. He invented a justification for why it would be fine.
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Post by starlightstoryteller on Dec 20, 2022 12:01:03 GMT -5
starlightstoryteller expressed interest in continuing the discussion from Bramblestar or Squirrelflight in another thread, and so it will be done. Now then, Sunstar sexism: He assumed she'd want to take a more active role in her kits' life when he needed a deputy immediately who would focus entirely on the clan. But Sunstar also later tells us that he was never picking Thistleclaw anyway. Bluestar was concerned because it would have damaged her political prospects but it wasn't actually a case of her being prevented. The issue is that typically speaking, parents would be more invested in their kits than on doing politics so quickly. Kidnapping: Sol's last appearance to the lakes was him nearly destroying Shadowclan by manipulating them in bad faith. Yellowfang's first interaction with Firepaw was attacking him, nor was she helpless in her age either (she had the strength to fight off Blackfoot and kill Brokenstar a few times, clearly she was as strong as she ever was). Moreover, Bluestar was curious to know about Shadowclan since Shadowclan had just destroyed Windclan and Yellowfang needed shelter and food at the time. In both these scenarios, it's not remotely as aggressive as just seeing a leader and deputy on the border, preemptively capturing them, and then not even sending any messenger to inform them. It's not true that the Sisters were "already there" either, as they explicitly only came into the area recently. Also, talking about them treating their prisoners better is weird since it's the Sisters who slash open their prisoners whereas I don't recall any instance of clan prisoners being treated so violently. It's made worse because at least the clans can treat infection pretty well, whereas the Sisters seem to not be very good at it, so they could have well killed Leafstar by accident there. Violent culture: The first time we see the Sisters they're determined to intimidate the locals they know nothing about via kidnapping their respected members. Imagine if when the clans went to the Tribe, they casually kidnapped Stoneteller and a high ranking cat in the Tribe and then held them captive; that's how bad of a diplomatic misstep it was, and it was their FIRST idea. No attempt at dialogue beforehand, not even revealing their presence, just hold hostages and get ready to intimidate them. The clans at least talk to each other, at least they have avenues of diplomacy that don't consist of swaggering in with a might=right mentality, capturing the highest rank you can find, and then just sitting with them. Calling them more peaceful than the clans just because they battle less is rather missing the point that the reason they battle less is because they're so big they can intimidate most anyone they find, and when that fails, kidnapping is their first resort. The whole thing relies on fear backed up by implicit violence of what'll happen if the locals don't like what they're doing. Deaths: Lionblaze didn't kill Russetfur, she had a heart attack. The whole thing was literally a Shadowclan smearjob, I don't see why it would be brought up for a long time. As for Oakheart, yeah, that's because Tigerclaw lied and said Oakheart had killed Redtail. He invented a justification for why it would be fine. psa to maplefrost if you're reading this thread: the sisters are not based on the amazonians. I have no idea where you got that from. THey're based on actual, real life cats, who chase away their male children once they reach a certain age. And tbh it's kinda weird that you see an ancient tribe with gender equality and think it means female supremacy. re: sunstar thing. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, because i read it differently ^^ kidnapping: leaving aside the time shadowclan kidnapped ivypaw for herbs and tigerheartstar held alderheart hostage for trying an experimental treatment on his medicine cat who was going to die if nothing was done (and the fact that one-eye in the first book says they've held prisoners for moons in the past): the thing is, sol was a pacified threat minding his own business. Leafstar and Squirrel represented an active threat to the Sisters for the time they were staying there. I'm not going to say this was a good thing, or even a smart thing. But it was a reaction out of fear that the clans would treat them poorly because thye neeeded territory, and they turned out to be right. This wasn't an intimidation thing, it was to keep them from going back and telling people about their camp. Re:treatment of prisoners: the wiki stated they were to be treated as equal denmates during the duration of their stay. The Clans haven't, to my knowledge, injured any of their prisoners, but generally clan prisoners don't try and fail to escape either. Also 'the sisters aren't very good at treating infection' ???? what do you mean by that? every single cat in the sisters is trained in medicine, according to the wiki. re: already there: i mean they were the first cat group to settle in that particular patch, however short said settling was. its not like they were on clan territory, they were near it. no clan cats lived there, and the sisters do. they had a right to not be driven off their camp. Also, kidnapping Stoneteller isn't an apt example--stoneteller posed zero threat to the journeying cats. If the Tribe was hemming and hawing about whether they'd go and take over the forest, and also if stoneteller came to their camp and knew where it was, it'd be understandable. not good, not moral, but understandable. re: deaths: sorry, i chose poor examples off the top of my head! Here;s some more. *Hawkheart kills moonflower. this isn't an accident or heat of the moment thing either. he attacks moonflower, gets her out of the den well away from the supplies, and then attacks her again with a blow to the throat. As a medicine cat he should know that kills people. You could argue he was blinded by rage because moonflower attacked his stores, which is a 100% valid interpretationm but even before he finds out abt the stores he first calls bluepaw a kit, acknowledging she's very young, and then threatens and is about to attack her before heatherstar calls him away to do his damn job and heal cats like he's supposed to. hawkheart never receives consequences for this behavior. Another example is appledusk accidentally killing birchface. everyone thinks this was on purpose. thunderclan wants 'birchface's kits to kill him when they grow up. riverclan uses this to intimidate mapleshade and say they'll kill everyone in thunderclan. societal views on how bad murder is seem to swing widely, but the reaction for intraclan mating is always punishment. Source: imgur.com/a/zYMMnGDViolent culture: By that i should clarify i mean thwe nasty mixture of violence, lack of compassion for outsiders, and weird superiority complex the clans have. I'll list the clans and the sister's observable societal problems here: Clans:
*Child soliders. *Only outlawing murder relatively late into their history and enforcing it inconsistently when no intraclan mates was the very first rule. *forbidding cats from taking mates outside their clan, leading to pointless angst and incest. *forbidding medicine cats from taking mates because 'they'll be biased', ignoring literally every interpersonal relationship a cat has that could potentially affect their healing decisions. Considering disabled cats are often forced into the medicine den [and i won't like get into a debate abt whether thats ableist or not, bc thats besides the point] this can have unfortunate implications. By this logic the only cats who can be medicine cats are relativeless orphans with no friends or mentors. [Also something about not being able to ignore your kits crying but....??? the clans raise their kittens more communally than people do. Also, nursing doesn't take that long--certainly not a whole day of the cats' time. At the worst, if a medcat is female, nursing, and there's no other nursing queens, she might need her apprentice to take over for a bit. 'No kits if you don't have another medcat' is perfectly reasonable, imo. *A history of mistreating outsiders from the very first days of dotc (misty, bumble, etc), treating others as lesser due to the circumstances of their birth, a weird and creepy emphasis on 'blood', the list goes on. examples being russetfur, frecklewish (not the river thing. the calling them creatures and wanting them driven out for their parentage thing, which went unchallenged.) darkstripe when he wanted to leave cloudkit to die, etc *The way they think they are the only valid society and try to enforce their ways of life onto the outsider groups they don't try to drive out (tribe cats, church cats) *an unhealthy attachment to starclan despite its numerous crimes. *the law about having to follow your leader no matter what has led to numerous tyrannies. even now, as leaders are finally no longer completely unchallenged autocrats, you still have cats like bumblestripe arguing that you should always follow your leader, no matter what. THis has lead to: riverclan nearly killing 2 teenagers. stonefur actually dying. gorsepaw dying. windclan being droven out. countless shadowclan kittens dying. im sure there are other examples I'm missing. The Sisters:
*They drive out their young toms at the same age the clans apprentice them. Usually they have help from the earth and the spirits, but this process can go wrong, as can be seen with Tree. *They kidnapped Squirrelflight and Leafstar, and injured Leafstar when she attempted to escape. Now let's list the positive aspects of each society. The Clans:
*They treat their kits, queens, and elders well, as well as their vulnerable. *They occasionally help drive out harmful rogue groups (if i remember skyclan and the stranger correctly? but that also definitely happened in dotc) *If you remember anymore, let me know! The Sisters:
*They, like the clans, treat their vulnerable will. *All of them know medicine. *They're generally helpful even towards groups they're at odds with like the Clans, which is honestly more than the clans can say lol. They help squirrelflight save her daughter's life. They travel all the way from where they were at to help the clans with their malevolent ghost problem, even though the clans were kind of responsible for the death of their leader [and were acting xenophobic at them when they showed up]. They helped council the Lights in the Mist to reach the dark forest. this isn;t to say the sisters are perfect, or are even better than the clans, because that falls into the 'noble savage' trope  My point is, both societies have deep flaws built into their systems, and both societies need reform. P.S. Let me know if I'm getting too aggressive in tone! I like debating over the internet but sometimes i get too heated abt things |
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Post by vectoring34 on Dec 20, 2022 12:41:24 GMT -5
Kidnapping: The clans do do it, but when they do it, it is typically a last resort after other diplomatic means have failed. The Sisters resort to it as their first and only form of diplomacy, only relenting when they realized they were about to get wrecked. The notion that Sol was less of a problem than Leafstar and Squirrelflight I also don't get. Sol was suspected of murder, and had shown a history of being a bad actor. There's nothing wrong in tracking him down to see if he offers any leads. On the other hand, Leafstar and Squirrelflight were explicitly saying they would do nothing, and even arguing amongst themselves about if they'd even say anything. And in the end, the clans only ever even found out and treated them hostilely because they decided intimidation was the only method of negotiation. The Sisters were never right, and in fact they created their own problems by casually imprisoning a leader and deputy and then ignoring the clan's borders as well as all their diplomatic entreaties. The clan attack wasn't right later on, but the Sisters put forth zero effort in negotiating and seemed to do their best to make themselves look aggressive and unreasonable.
Prisoner treatment: The only one who says they'll be treated as equals are the Sisters themselves, their captors. Who then proceed to slash open Leafstar the moment she takes a few steps out of her prison. Leafstar wasn't even planning on escaping in that moment, just looking around the camp, and already the Sisters maltreat her. You never see prisoner treatment like that in the clans. Moreover, as far as the Sisters knowing medicine, if they were so good at it, you'd think they've had treated Sunrise themselves. Instead they had to go and beg Thunderclan for help and were useless in helping her. The fact that they offered zero help with Sunrise indicates strongly to me that their medicine skills are far less developed than those of the clans.
My point in them being "already there" isn't to say that the Sisters weren't the first on that patch of land, but rather that they came into proximity of the clan's territories and immediately started off hostilities with them, not even bothering to try any other kind of contact. They weren't the only cats in the area and that they acted like that isn't good. You rationalizing that Leafstar and Squirrelflight were a threat and so capturing them makes sense ignores the fact that capturing them makes the clans MORE of a threat because now they'll hate you for kidnapping their leaders. The only scenario in which it makes sense is one where the clans are too scared to act, which seems to have been what the Sisters were counting on, that they could use their size and strength to bully and intimidate the clans. The fact is though that capturing in that scenario is guaranteed to set up hostilities, whereas letting them go at least would have left room open for dialogue.
Hawkheart was defending his store from an unprovoked attack which everyone viewed as unjust, even Thunderclan after the fact. His killing of Moonflower was not good, but her actions had likely condemned several Windclanners as well. Again, likely a case of a revenge kill which isn't great but it's hard to punish in light of that. Appledusk is a similar case too. Revenge kills I don't see any reason to believe would be a different belief in the Sisters, it's just we've never seen a case of it.
The "child soldiers" angle is also plenty weird considering the Sisters explicitly had their young toms at the frontline in the final battle, so clearly they have no objection to this either.
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Post by starlightstoryteller on Dec 20, 2022 13:06:34 GMT -5
Kidnapping: The clans do do it, but when they do it, it is typically a last resort after other diplomatic means have failed. The Sisters resort to it as their first and only form of diplomacy, only relenting when they realized they were about to get wrecked. The notion that Sol was less of a problem than Leafstar and Squirrelflight I also don't get. Sol was suspected of murder, and had shown a history of being a bad actor. There's nothing wrong in tracking him down to see if he offers any leads. On the other hand, Leafstar and Squirrelflight were explicitly saying they would do nothing, and even arguing amongst themselves about if they'd even say anything. And in the end, the clans only ever even found out and treated them hostilely because they decided intimidation was the only method of negotiation. The Sisters were never right, and in fact they created their own problems by casually imprisoning a leader and deputy and then ignoring the clan's borders as well as all their diplomatic entreaties. The clan attack wasn't right later on, but the Sisters put forth zero effort in negotiating and seemed to do their best to make themselves look aggressive and unreasonable. Prisoner treatment: The only one who says they'll be treated as equals are the Sisters themselves, their captors. Who then proceed to slash open Leafstar the moment she takes a few steps out of her prison. Leafstar wasn't even planning on escaping in that moment, just looking around the camp, and already the Sisters maltreat her. You never see prisoner treatment like that in the clans. Moreover, as far as the Sisters knowing medicine, if they were so good at it, you'd think they've had treated Sunrise themselves. Instead they had to go and beg Thunderclan for help and were useless in helping her. The fact that they offered zero help with Sunrise indicates strongly to me that their medicine skills are far less developed than those of the clans. My point in them being "already there" isn't to say that the Sisters weren't the first on that patch of land, but rather that they came into proximity of the clan's territories and immediately started off hostilities with them, not even bothering to try any other kind of contact. They weren't the only cats in the area and that they acted like that isn't good. You rationalizing that Leafstar and Squirrelflight were a threat and so capturing them makes sense ignores the fact that capturing them makes the clans MORE of a threat because now they'll hate you for kidnapping their leaders. The only scenario in which it makes sense is one where the clans are too scared to act, which seems to have been what the Sisters were counting on, that they could use their size and strength to bully and intimidate the clans. The fact is though that capturing in that scenario is guaranteed to set up hostilities, whereas letting them go at least would have left room open for dialogue. Hawkheart was defending his store from an unprovoked attack which everyone viewed as unjust, even Thunderclan after the fact. His killing of Moonflower was not good, but her actions had likely condemned several Windclanners as well. Again, likely a case of a revenge kill which isn't great but it's hard to punish in light of that. Appledusk is a similar case too. Revenge kills I don't see any reason to believe would be a different belief in the Sisters, it's just we've never seen a case of it. The "child soldiers" angle is also plenty weird considering the Sisters explicitly had their young toms at the frontline in the final battle, so clearly they have no objection to this either. The prisoner treatment in tigerclan was far, far worse than that of the sisters. You could say that its because its tigerstar and tigerstar is evil, but the very reason tigerstar could treat 4 innocent cats whose only fault was being born like crowfood is bc the warrior code let him :/ re: kidnapping. Here is some screenshots of SQH that show that exact scene: imgur.com/a/MHE4bw2 . In it, the sisters recognize the Clans are highly territorial and entitled, even squirrelflight herself admits to herself the other clan leaders may attack. They didn't do it to intimidate--they thought they wouldn't be found. Again, i repeat, this is bad diplomacy. I don't think this is a good thing, but it's an understandable thing. Would dialogue have really saved the sisters, if the clans were deadset on their territory? Dialogue didn't save the rogues and loners living in the forest territories when clear sky was murdering and chasing out cats. And if a society thinks a cat doesn't deserve to be saved because they weren't forest-blooded, there's not a lot of faith in said society to act well when non-forest-blooded cats are in the way of something that they want. re: medicine: they were in the middle of the forest, far from their camp, when sunrise got attacked. they went to the nearest cats for help because they didn't know where the herbs were. they couldn't just go in and grab leafpools store while they were in her camp without getting shredded. and then leafpool was treating her already. Re: hawkheart: you didn't address how he threatened to savage a cat barely out of the nursery. Re: appledusk: the whole thing abt the riverclanners holding up appledusk as a threat was the most messed up part. the birchface part was also pretty bad, but that was the worst. Also, with both of those being 'revenge' kills, it still doesnt address the point that murder can get more lenience in a clan than illegal relationships. With murder theres a thousand and one "welllllll, xyz...." but with shit like yellowfang being a warrior with a mate already and not wanting to be a medcat but being coerced into it by sagewhisker she gets no leniency from her mentor or the narrative for having kits. also, you didn't address the entire bottom half of my post. except the child soldiers. i'll concede that one bc idk if the toms were there or not n im too tired 2 check |
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Dec 20, 2022 13:21:45 GMT -5
starlightstoryteller expressed interest in continuing the discussion from Bramblestar or Squirrelflight in another thread, and so it will be done. Now then, Sunstar sexism: He assumed she'd want to take a more active role in her kits' life when he needed a deputy immediately who would focus entirely on the clan. But Sunstar also later tells us that he was never picking Thistleclaw anyway. Bluestar was concerned because it would have damaged her political prospects but it wasn't actually a case of her being prevented. The issue is that typically speaking, parents would be more invested in their kits than on doing politics so quickly. Kidnapping: Sol's last appearance to the lakes was him nearly destroying Shadowclan by manipulating them in bad faith. Yellowfang's first interaction with Firepaw was attacking him, nor was she helpless in her age either (she had the strength to fight off Blackfoot and kill Brokenstar a few times, clearly she was as strong as she ever was). Moreover, Bluestar was curious to know about Shadowclan since Shadowclan had just destroyed Windclan and Yellowfang needed shelter and food at the time. In both these scenarios, it's not remotely as aggressive as just seeing a leader and deputy on the border, preemptively capturing them, and then not even sending any messenger to inform them. It's not true that the Sisters were "already there" either, as they explicitly only came into the area recently. Also, talking about them treating their prisoners better is weird since it's the Sisters who slash open their prisoners whereas I don't recall any instance of clan prisoners being treated so violently. It's made worse because at least the clans can treat infection pretty well, whereas the Sisters seem to not be very good at it, so they could have well killed Leafstar by accident there. Violent culture: The first time we see the Sisters they're determined to intimidate the locals they know nothing about via kidnapping their respected members. Imagine if when the clans went to the Tribe, they casually kidnapped Stoneteller and a high ranking cat in the Tribe and then held them captive; that's how bad of a diplomatic misstep it was, and it was their FIRST idea. No attempt at dialogue beforehand, not even revealing their presence, just hold hostages and get ready to intimidate them. The clans at least talk to each other, at least they have avenues of diplomacy that don't consist of swaggering in with a might=right mentality, capturing the highest rank you can find, and then just sitting with them. Calling them more peaceful than the clans just because they battle less is rather missing the point that the reason they battle less is because they're so big they can intimidate most anyone they find, and when that fails, kidnapping is their first resort. The whole thing relies on fear backed up by implicit violence of what'll happen if the locals don't like what they're doing. Deaths: Lionblaze didn't kill Russetfur, she had a heart attack. The whole thing was literally a Shadowclan smearjob, I don't see why it would be brought up for a long time. As for Oakheart, yeah, that's because Tigerclaw lied and said Oakheart had killed Redtail. He invented a justification for why it would be fine. psa to maplefrost if you're reading this thread: the sisters are not based on the amazonians. I have no idea where you got that from. THey're based on actual, real life cats, who chase away their male children once they reach a certain age. And tbh it's kinda weird that you see an ancient tribe with gender equality and think it means female supremacy. I wasn't planning to reply to this thread, because the last one was tiring. But I'm going to reply to this at least. Don't do this. If you want to speak with me, simply just msg me, because I'll be frank, it's uncomfortable. Second, many, MANY people in the fandom have stated that the Sisters are based off the Amazonians, and it's a tiring debate on it's own. It's wasn't an assumption I was making toward you, it was me saying it as a just in case because it's an overused argument, even on the forums. And if you're saying that they're based off real-life cats, that makes your earlier points and arguments even more nonsensical to me, considering the Clans in general chase off trespassers who are aggressive. Actual cats also form groups too, etc. Is there a specific type of cat you're referring to? Because otherwise this your initial arguments make no sense either...? ???????????? The Amazonians for the longest time, in myths were written in stories as being woman only soldiers, even their name is based off mistakes from interpretations by ancient Greek writers. It was only recently that it was discovered that they did actually exists historical, through Scythians, but they were a nomadic people that weren't like modern views of Amazonians at all. That was my point. I'm not sure how you jumped to the conclusion you did there. |
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Post by vectoring34 on Dec 20, 2022 13:48:16 GMT -5
Kidnapping: The clans do do it, but when they do it, it is typically a last resort after other diplomatic means have failed. The Sisters resort to it as their first and only form of diplomacy, only relenting when they realized they were about to get wrecked. The notion that Sol was less of a problem than Leafstar and Squirrelflight I also don't get. Sol was suspected of murder, and had shown a history of being a bad actor. There's nothing wrong in tracking him down to see if he offers any leads. On the other hand, Leafstar and Squirrelflight were explicitly saying they would do nothing, and even arguing amongst themselves about if they'd even say anything. And in the end, the clans only ever even found out and treated them hostilely because they decided intimidation was the only method of negotiation. The Sisters were never right, and in fact they created their own problems by casually imprisoning a leader and deputy and then ignoring the clan's borders as well as all their diplomatic entreaties. The clan attack wasn't right later on, but the Sisters put forth zero effort in negotiating and seemed to do their best to make themselves look aggressive and unreasonable. Prisoner treatment: The only one who says they'll be treated as equals are the Sisters themselves, their captors. Who then proceed to slash open Leafstar the moment she takes a few steps out of her prison. Leafstar wasn't even planning on escaping in that moment, just looking around the camp, and already the Sisters maltreat her. You never see prisoner treatment like that in the clans. Moreover, as far as the Sisters knowing medicine, if they were so good at it, you'd think they've had treated Sunrise themselves. Instead they had to go and beg Thunderclan for help and were useless in helping her. The fact that they offered zero help with Sunrise indicates strongly to me that their medicine skills are far less developed than those of the clans. My point in them being "already there" isn't to say that the Sisters weren't the first on that patch of land, but rather that they came into proximity of the clan's territories and immediately started off hostilities with them, not even bothering to try any other kind of contact. They weren't the only cats in the area and that they acted like that isn't good. You rationalizing that Leafstar and Squirrelflight were a threat and so capturing them makes sense ignores the fact that capturing them makes the clans MORE of a threat because now they'll hate you for kidnapping their leaders. The only scenario in which it makes sense is one where the clans are too scared to act, which seems to have been what the Sisters were counting on, that they could use their size and strength to bully and intimidate the clans. The fact is though that capturing in that scenario is guaranteed to set up hostilities, whereas letting them go at least would have left room open for dialogue. Hawkheart was defending his store from an unprovoked attack which everyone viewed as unjust, even Thunderclan after the fact. His killing of Moonflower was not good, but her actions had likely condemned several Windclanners as well. Again, likely a case of a revenge kill which isn't great but it's hard to punish in light of that. Appledusk is a similar case too. Revenge kills I don't see any reason to believe would be a different belief in the Sisters, it's just we've never seen a case of it. The "child soldiers" angle is also plenty weird considering the Sisters explicitly had their young toms at the frontline in the final battle, so clearly they have no objection to this either. The prisoner treatment in tigerclan was far, far worse than that of the sisters. You could say that its because its tigerstar and tigerstar is evil, but the very reason tigerstar could treat 4 innocent cats whose only fault was being born like crowfood is bc the warrior code let him :/ re: kidnapping. Here is some screenshots of SQH that show that exact scene: imgur.com/a/MHE4bw2 . In it, the sisters recognize the Clans are highly territorial and entitled, even squirrelflight herself admits to herself the other clan leaders may attack. They didn't do it to intimidate--they thought they wouldn't be found. Again, i repeat, this is bad diplomacy. I don't think this is a good thing, but it's an understandable thing. Would dialogue have really saved the sisters, if the clans were deadset on their territory? Dialogue didn't save the rogues and loners living in the forest territories when clear sky was murdering and chasing out cats. And if a society thinks a cat doesn't deserve to be saved because they weren't forest-blooded, there's not a lot of faith in said society to act well when non-forest-blooded cats are in the way of something that they want. re: medicine: they were in the middle of the forest, far from their camp, when sunrise got attacked. they went to the nearest cats for help because they didn't know where the herbs were. they couldn't just go in and grab leafpools store while they were in her camp without getting shredded. and then leafpool was treating her already. Re: hawkheart: you didn't address how he threatened to savage a cat barely out of the nursery. Re: appledusk: the whole thing abt the riverclanners holding up appledusk as a threat was the most messed up part. the birchface part was also pretty bad, but that was the worst. Also, with both of those being 'revenge' kills, it still doesnt address the point that murder can get more lenience in a clan than illegal relationships. With murder theres a thousand and one "welllllll, xyz...." but with shit like yellowfang being a warrior with a mate already and not wanting to be a medcat but being coerced into it by sagewhisker she gets no leniency from her mentor or the narrative for having kits. also, you didn't address the entire bottom half of my post. except the child soldiers. i'll concede that one bc idk if the toms were there or not n im too tired 2 check Tigerstar was a lunatic who was on the verge of destroying all four clans to rule them himself and was using Bloodclanners and dogs as a weapon, how in the world can you say that reflects on the clans? The warrior code didn't let him murder his way to the top by treachery nor conquer Riverclan, indeed the entirety of Tigerclan was blatantly against the code. The only part you can point to is the "leader's word is law" bit all the while ignoring all the other rules Tigerstar broke and the fact that he was able to get away with this by power and fear. If the Sisters had a powerful and charismatic leader like Tigerstar there's no indication they'd disobey either, certainly none of them questioned Moonlight's awful ideas during her leadership tenure. Kidnapping: Sending a message kind of implies that the clans will find out about it. The Sisters at first thinking they wouldn't be found seems more like them being ignorant, as once Squirrelflight and Leafstar clarify that the clans will go looking for them, they immediately just switch to the "send an important message" narrative. Which is clear-cut intimidation, as Moonlight herself states immediately that the purpose of this message is to show they while they don't fight easy, they don't scare easy either. Presumably she thinks it's a really great idea to make a powerplay by showing they can kidnap the clans' most respected cats without any shame, which is just classic intimidation stuff. It is difficult to understand it any other way. And as far as the bloodline things and Clear Sky, Clear Sky was long out of living memory to the point even his name isn't remembered. Heck, his entire CLAN wasn't even remembered, that's how irrelevant he was to the clans' modern culture. The modern Skyclan shares pretty much zero ideals with him, even less than the lake clans. He was cruel but he has no relevance to the modern day nor would the Sisters think that because there's no indication their group even existed that long ago. Bloodline wise, again, the Sisters don't know that, nor is it even true in the modern day. We've seen plenty of non-clan cats be treated and allowed temporary refuge by the clans. See Velvet or Jessy, for example. Sunrise's specific case though was worse because she was part of a group who had kidnapped clan cats and then picked a fight with Shadowclan. Maybe if the Sisters didn't go around picking fights with everyone they'd be treated better. I think it's not a stretch to say the clans would have been more receptive to talking with them if the Sisters weren't belligerent at every turn. Medicine: The Sisters fought the Shadowclanners on their border, a place which would be CLOSER to their camp than to Thunderclan's. If not closer, at least within range of their own territory which I'd hope they know the herb locations of. No, this doesn't make much sense if it's a case of geography being the problem. Moreover, they could have just asked Leafpool for the herb locations in the territory or for herbs, yet they don't do this. Instead they constantly just beg Leafpool herself to do it. Hawkheart: I fail to see the issue with Hawkheart intimidating an apprentice. He doesn't actually do anything beyond threaten to give her a battle scar mockingly. Which is honestly expected if she's on the frontline. He didn't threaten any excessive violence or anything. Murder: You have no reason to believe that there wouldn't be similar exceptions for killing within the Sisters though. You're just kind of asserting that they they would be better with zero evidence, despite the fact that we know they resort to conflict about as quickly as clan cats do. The one thing the Sisters can say is no boundaries on relationships, but even then that's not true, because they don't allow mates to stay together unless the female leaves the Sisters. That would be their version of the medicine cat and interclan drama. That means that every relationship is forced to be a fling with them. Sure, you could argue that they do allow someone to leave freely if they want to stay, but this is a choice that forces them to abandon everything they've ever known and almost never meet with the Sisters again. And in any case, it happens among the clans too that cats can just move clans. |
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Post by starlightstoryteller on Dec 20, 2022 14:02:14 GMT -5
psa to maplefrost if you're reading this thread: the sisters are not based on the amazonians. I have no idea where you got that from. THey're based on actual, real life cats, who chase away their male children once they reach a certain age. And tbh it's kinda weird that you see an ancient tribe with gender equality and think it means female supremacy. I wasn't planning to reply to this thread, because the last one was tiring. But I'm going to reply to this at least. Don't do this. If you want to speak with me, simply just msg me, because I'll be frank, it's uncomfortable. Second, many, MANY people in the fandom have stated that the Sisters are based off the Amazonians, and it's a tiring debate on it's own. It's wasn't an assumption I was making toward you, it was me saying it as a just in case because it's an overused argument, even on the forums. And if you're saying that they're based off real-life cats, that makes your earlier points and arguments even more nonsensical to me, considering the Clans in general chase off trespassers who are aggressive. Actual cats also form groups too, etc. Is there a specific type of cat you're referring to? Because otherwise this your initial arguments make no sense either...? ???????????? The Amazonians for the longest time, in myths were written in stories as being woman only soldiers, even their name is based off mistakes from interpretations by ancient Greek writers. It was only recently that it was discovered that they did actually exists historical, through Scythians, but they were a nomadic people that weren't like modern views of Amazonians at all. That was my point. I'm not sure how you jumped to the conclusion you did there. i thought it'd be weird and personal to dm someone over 1 point of an argument they wanted to end but i dragged out for too long anyway. also i misunderstood the thing abt the amazons, sorry! i'd only ever heard of them as egalitarian societies, not matriarchal ones. im referring to felis catus, the domestic feline.  the clans don;t apply to that, however, because it has been repeatedly stated that they write them as 'little furry humans' and the cats have nearly no catlike behaviors. This was likely a little bit of trivia they put into the Sisters' lore that'd make ppl knowledgeable abt how wild cats go :0 just like real life, or perhaps as ;a tongue in cheek thing for everyone complaining about realism. the actual reason cats do this is so the males can breed with unrelated females; the sisters do it because religion |
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Post by starlightstoryteller on Dec 20, 2022 15:37:38 GMT -5
The prisoner treatment in tigerclan was far, far worse than that of the sisters. You could say that its because its tigerstar and tigerstar is evil, but the very reason tigerstar could treat 4 innocent cats whose only fault was being born like crowfood is bc the warrior code let him :/ re: kidnapping. Here is some screenshots of SQH that show that exact scene: imgur.com/a/MHE4bw2 . In it, the sisters recognize the Clans are highly territorial and entitled, even squirrelflight herself admits to herself the other clan leaders may attack. They didn't do it to intimidate--they thought they wouldn't be found. Again, i repeat, this is bad diplomacy. I don't think this is a good thing, but it's an understandable thing. Would dialogue have really saved the sisters, if the clans were deadset on their territory? Dialogue didn't save the rogues and loners living in the forest territories when clear sky was murdering and chasing out cats. And if a society thinks a cat doesn't deserve to be saved because they weren't forest-blooded, there's not a lot of faith in said society to act well when non-forest-blooded cats are in the way of something that they want. re: medicine: they were in the middle of the forest, far from their camp, when sunrise got attacked. they went to the nearest cats for help because they didn't know where the herbs were. they couldn't just go in and grab leafpools store while they were in her camp without getting shredded. and then leafpool was treating her already. Re: hawkheart: you didn't address how he threatened to savage a cat barely out of the nursery. Re: appledusk: the whole thing abt the riverclanners holding up appledusk as a threat was the most messed up part. the birchface part was also pretty bad, but that was the worst. Also, with both of those being 'revenge' kills, it still doesnt address the point that murder can get more lenience in a clan than illegal relationships. With murder theres a thousand and one "welllllll, xyz...." but with shit like yellowfang being a warrior with a mate already and not wanting to be a medcat but being coerced into it by sagewhisker she gets no leniency from her mentor or the narrative for having kits. also, you didn't address the entire bottom half of my post. except the child soldiers. i'll concede that one bc idk if the toms were there or not n im too tired 2 check Tigerstar was a lunatic who was on the verge of destroying all four clans to rule them himself and was using Bloodclanners and dogs as a weapon, how in the world can you say that reflects on the clans? The warrior code didn't let him murder his way to the top by treachery nor conquer Riverclan, indeed the entirety of Tigerclan was blatantly against the code. The only part you can point to is the "leader's word is law" bit all the while ignoring all the other rules Tigerstar broke and the fact that he was able to get away with this by power and fear. If the Sisters had a powerful and charismatic leader like Tigerstar there's no indication they'd disobey either, certainly none of them questioned Moonlight's awful ideas during her leadership tenure. Kidnapping: Sending a message kind of implies that the clans will find out about it. The Sisters at first thinking they wouldn't be found seems more like them being ignorant, as once Squirrelflight and Leafstar clarify that the clans will go looking for them, they immediately just switch to the "send an important message" narrative. Which is clear-cut intimidation, as Moonlight herself states immediately that the purpose of this message is to show they while they don't fight easy, they don't scare easy either. Presumably she thinks it's a really great idea to make a powerplay by showing they can kidnap the clans' most respected cats without any shame, which is just classic intimidation stuff. It is difficult to understand it any other way. And as far as the bloodline things and Clear Sky, Clear Sky was long out of living memory to the point even his name isn't remembered. Heck, his entire CLAN wasn't even remembered, that's how irrelevant he was to the clans' modern culture. The modern Skyclan shares pretty much zero ideals with him, even less than the lake clans. He was cruel but he has no relevance to the modern day nor would the Sisters think that because there's no indication their group even existed that long ago. Bloodline wise, again, the Sisters don't know that, nor is it even true in the modern day. We've seen plenty of non-clan cats be treated and allowed temporary refuge by the clans. See Velvet or Jessy, for example. Sunrise's specific case though was worse because she was part of a group who had kidnapped clan cats and then picked a fight with Shadowclan. Maybe if the Sisters didn't go around picking fights with everyone they'd be treated better. I think it's not a stretch to say the clans would have been more receptive to talking with them if the Sisters weren't belligerent at every turn. Medicine: The Sisters fought the Shadowclanners on their border, a place which would be CLOSER to their camp than to Thunderclan's. If not closer, at least within range of their own territory which I'd hope they know the herb locations of. No, this doesn't make much sense if it's a case of geography being the problem. Moreover, they could have just asked Leafpool for the herb locations in the territory or for herbs, yet they don't do this. Instead they constantly just beg Leafpool herself to do it. Hawkheart: I fail to see the issue with Hawkheart intimidating an apprentice. He doesn't actually do anything beyond threaten to give her a battle scar mockingly. Which is honestly expected if she's on the frontline. He didn't threaten any excessive violence or anything. Murder: You have no reason to believe that there wouldn't be similar exceptions for killing within the Sisters though. You're just kind of asserting that they they would be better with zero evidence, despite the fact that we know they resort to conflict about as quickly as clan cats do. The one thing the Sisters can say is no boundaries on relationships, but even then that's not true, because they don't allow mates to stay together unless the female leaves the Sisters. That would be their version of the medicine cat and interclan drama. That means that every relationship is forced to be a fling with them. Sure, you could argue that they do allow someone to leave freely if they want to stay, but this is a choice that forces them to abandon everything they've ever known and almost never meet with the Sisters again. And in any case, it happens among the clans too that cats can just move clans. Tigerclawstar was a lunatic, yes, but he was only allowed to get away with his atrocities because the weird inbetween space the 'leader's word' code is in where you're supposed to follow it except if the leader gets too bad but where the line is for a bad leader is subjective. He reflects on the clans because his power as leader allowing him to commit atrocities was a thing because of the code. There is zero evidence that the sisters would follow a charismatic fascist like Tigerclawstar. The burden of proof is on you for such an assumption because it is a stretch from the way societies work. It's a statement i can make about the clans because a) its a rule that leaders have absolute power that may or may not supercede the code and  it's happened. multiple times. your only evidence is that they're willing to fight in defense of their home. Re: Kidnapping. after seeing that quote, i concede the point (mostly). although i would like to point out basically the entirety of the gatherings is posturing and intimidation. A particular example is Tigerheartstar intimidating skyclan to try to force them to leave at gatherings, and then actually attacking their home in the middle of the night to try and get them to leave. this is not treated as evil or irredeemable by the narrative, but juniperclaw's behavior is. guess killing someone with poison is worse than killing them of bloodloss or whatever nasty germs you've got on your claws. re: clear sky: yes, that was a long time ago. my point was a bit unclear there, but it was that violence and driving out outsiders with aggression has been part of the clans since their founding. they're built on blood, and while clear sky may have been forgotten the concept of borders between clans was invented by him and that's been so absorbed by the clans that when rusty questions it everyone acts like he just killed their grandma even though they can't give him a straight answer as to why its bad. Modern SkyClan acts a bit different because it was founded by Firestar, poster boy for anti-xenophobia--even then Leafstar still makes odd statements, and there was prejudice towards daylight warriors even though daylight warriors are objectively brilliant because they help the clan hunt and fight but don't take up food or medicinal resources. The sisters likely know of the clans tendencies if they witnessed even a bit of the whole kerfuffle caused by skyclan moving in, and the rigorous border stuff itself and the fact that leaf and squirrel argued abt how best to carve up the land that was currently occupied was probably a warning sign. not to mention squirrelflight goes quiet when asked if the other leaders wouldn't. The course of action they took was illogical, but also Moonlight was pregnant, and pregnancy messes with ur hormones a lot, especially when it comes to the safety of ur future kids. about general treatment of outsiders--thunderclan isn't the best for these examples because theyre generally more tolerant of outsiders. Shadowclan and riverclan have historically treated the cats they've taken in weirdly, and it was in shadowclan that brokenkit, raggedkit and blackkit were all harassed for possibly having parents outside of the clan. Also where is it stated the sisters picked a fight with shadowclan and not the other way around??? The clans are canonically the ones obsessed with borders, not the sisters. Even in the images i shared earlier, Leafstar uses 'rogue' in a perjorative way. 'You're treating me like a/worse than a rogue' is a phrase in their language, indicating knowledge that they do, on some level, treat rogues poorly. Medicine: [Isn't the Sisters' land beyond the horseplace????] Honest to god, even if we assume that they did have the time to frolic around in unfamiliar territory looking for herbs while sunset is dying, if bramblestar wouldnt let leafpool treat her what makes u think he wouldve let them take their herbs? they couldnt go to the neighboring clans bc that'd make the diplomatic situation worse. Murder: assuming a group that has stated they didn't like violence and held leaf and squirrel hostage when they could've killed them if they were so determined to send a message is just as triggerhappy as the clans is disingenuous. That's like saying cuz someone got in a bar fight to protect their home they'd be willing to shoot people over petty border skirmishes like the clans do. Furthermore, the sisters consistently behave more altruistically than the clans. even when clan cats nearly killed sunrise, they give squirrelflight the knowledge to save her daughter. even though clan cats are responsible for the death of their leader, they help the clans with their ghosts and help beat ashfur [despite clan cats acting bigoted towards them throughout]. Also, I outlined previously what, exactly, the sisters have on the clans, and you're continually ignoring them when convenient or saying "well i think they would do this" with flimsy evidence. I'm trying to debate with you in good faith, I really am, but it;s frustrating when i outline my arguments and they are dismissed. the sisters don't try to enforce their lifestyle on others. the sisters don't lack empathy for others because they're outsiders. We don't know for sure if there's rules against murder but considering the only casualty in the battle was Moonlight and they outright stated they don't like violence it's at least implied. There's zero evidence they have a 'leader's word is law' rule, and considering in TBC they debate over whether or not to go with the clans that implies a level of free will the clans lack. the sisters don't judge cats for falling in love (you brought up before that sisters need to leave if they fall in love, and that exact point is brought up by needleclaw in a TBC book. but the sisters refute that they don't judge the cats for what's in their hearts like the clans do, and they can always come back to visit. tree was allowed to come back to visit, why not some other cat? And you say 'well the clans can let cats leave' but that's objectively worse bc a) they just came up with that after decades of pointless nonsense and its worse than just leaving because not only can you only talk to your kin at gatherings but you now need to hide things from them, you can't share your hardships because that makes your clan look weak and you need to grapple with the fact that you might mortally wound them in battle some day. Also you ignored my point about medicine cats.) Hawkheart: If you honestly think theres nothing wrong with a seasoned, skilled fighter about to beat up a cat he at first mistook for a kit because of how young she was (and it wasn't an idle threat, he was going to get her before heatherstar told him there were wounds to treat) I think this debate won't go anywhere bc our values are fundamentally incompatible. |
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My point is, both societies have deep flaws built into their systems, and both societies need reform. 
it's happened. multiple times. your only evidence is that they're willing to fight in defense of their home.
DM me if u want