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Post by starlightstoryteller on Dec 18, 2022 13:55:22 GMT -5
There is a bunch of misinformation in the warriors fandom because everyone read the older books years ago and details inevitably get mixed up. I'll be making a series of posts doing my best to combat said misinformation.
a lot of people are like โI canโt believe hollyleaf killed ashfur to keep the secret only to tell everyone anyway!โ But.
*When she killed Ashfur, she didnโt know she was Crowfeather and Leafpoolโs kit. She just knew she wasnโt Squirrelflightโs. She only finds out 3/4ths of the way into Sunrise, which is what begins her true spiral.
*They were scared theyโd be kicked out for being rogues.
*squirrelflight wasnโt visibly sad as she told the secret. At first she was angry, then she was stoic. Furthermore, she gave solid proof the three werenโt hers, which is probably why she didnโt tell them โjk yallโ after the fire.
*Squirrelflight was unable to attack him because she was recovering from a near-fatal belly wound. She needed his help to drag the branch and save the three.
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Post by Hollyfall on Dec 18, 2022 15:26:52 GMT -5
can't say i've seen this interpreted any other way tbh. and hollyleaf started her spiral before finding out her true parentage rather early on in the book iirc, she just got less stable and worse at hiding it
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Post by ๐ฑ๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐ on Dec 18, 2022 16:08:36 GMT -5
I mean, whenever I'm pointing out that "Hollyleaf killed Ashfur so the secret would not be reveaed but then revealed it herself at the Gathering" thing, my point is moreso that Ashfur was going to tell someone about the fact that Squirrelflight admitted to him (and her thus adopted kits) that she was not their real mother and Hollyleaf did not want that to get out (because she was understandably scared of the outcome and thus directed her ensuing fury/spiraling rage about it at Ashfur, for him planning to ruin her family's reputation by telling everyone about the part of the secret Squirreflight had told him so he would let Hollyleaf and her brothers go during the fire scene).
So, she killed him but later on after finding out the whole truth about her parentage (her true parents being LeafCrow), she still just went and told everyone herself despite literally murdering someone so not even the part about Squirrelflight not being her real mother would get out. Because "Squirrelflight not being the Original Three's real mother" is nonetheless a secret even though it's not the secret of who her (and her brothers) actual parents were all along.
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Post by ๐ฑ๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐ on Dec 18, 2022 16:34:23 GMT -5
can't say i've seen this interpreted any other way tbh. and hollyleaf started her spiral before finding out her true parentage rather early on in the book iirc, she just got less stable and worse at hiding it I've seen some instances (of usually older MAPs or fanart at this point) which depict Squirrelflight as crying/sad during the fire scene (which she was not in canon) and I've also seen some comments questioning why Squirrelflight just did not attack Ashfur during it as well (not sure if those people knew she was still recovering from her injury sustained in the eclipse battle or not though). But in terms of the biggest piece of information getting adressed on this thread, most fans I've seen, who state the phrase of "why did Hollyleaf kill Ashfur to keep the secret when she then revealed it later on at the Gathering anyways", usually do mean it in the sense I do as well, seeing as Ashfur did know a part of the secret (Squirrelflight not being the Three's true mother) and wanted to reveal it, only for Hollyleaf to kill him because of those plans (and her emotions of fear for what would happen if it did came out/anger at him wanting to ruin her family making her spiral) while then indeed just telling everyone regardless despite killing Ashfur before that so he would not reveal things and the secret would be "safe" (only known by the ones involved). Not exactly sure if outright calling her a hypocrite in that situation is the correct term to use but it is indeed at least contradictory for her based on the action of killing Ashfur, so the secret (or rather just part of it at the time) wouldn't come out, only for her to then reveal it (in full) herself later on. Although it does make sense from a character standpoint (Hollyleaf's development in terms of her spiraling out of control). |
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Dec 18, 2022 22:04:31 GMT -5
The secret referred to is usually Squirrelflight's lie, because that's the one Ashfur threatened to tell everyone. Hollyleaf killed him to prevent the illegitimate heritage from coming out of both pride and fear. This was indeed before she knew her parentage.
Then she found out her parents were Leafpool and Crowfeather, and the degree of codebreaking surrounding the circumstances of her birth far exceeded her expectations (she wasn't just born outside the code, her existence severely broke it). That's why she changed her mind and told everyone the truth.
So it's a bit more complicated than just "she murdered him just to tell everyone anyway" because she killed Ashfur for different reasons than she exposed her parentage, but that IS what ultimately happens.
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Post by starlightstoryteller on Dec 19, 2022 18:38:30 GMT -5
can't say i've seen this interpreted any other way tbh. and hollyleaf started her spiral before finding out her true parentage rather early on in the book iirc, she just got less stable and worse at hiding it I've seen some instances (of usually older MAPs or fanart at this point) which depict Squirrelflight as crying/sad during the fire scene (which she was not in canon) and I've also seen some comments questioning why Squirrelflight just did not attack Ashfur during it as well (not sure if those people knew she was still recovering from her injury sustained in the eclipse battle or not though). But in terms of the biggest piece of information getting adressed on this thread, most fans I've seen, who state the phrase of "why did Hollyleaf kill Ashfur to keep the secret when she then revealed it later on at the Gathering anyways", usually do mean it in the sense I do as well, seeing as Ashfur did know a part of the secret (Squirrelflight not being the Three's true mother) and wanted to reveal it, only for Hollyleaf to kill him because of those plans (and her emotions of fear for what would happen if it did came out/anger at him wanting to ruin her family making her spiral) while then indeed just telling everyone regardless despite killing Ashfur before that so he would not reveal things and the secret would be "safe" (only known by the ones involved). Not exactly sure if outright calling her a hypocrite in that situation is the correct term to use but it is indeed at least contradictory for her based on the action of killing Ashfur, so the secret (or rather just part of it at the time) wouldn't come out, only for her to then reveal it (in full) herself later on. Although it does make sense from a character standpoint (Hollyleaf's development in terms of her spiraling out of control). The way i see it is hollyleaf is utterly dedicated to the code. but ashfur is an existential threat to her and her brothers--she may be exiled for this. so she kills him to keep him quiet. but then. but then. She finds out that her very birth breaks two of the most sacred codes in the Clans! How can she let this deceit stand? If she's honorable, if she's anything more than a worthless bastard, she must expose these traitors. It's the only way she'll be able to live with herself, damn the consequences. |
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Post by ๐ฑ๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐ on Dec 20, 2022 4:52:49 GMT -5
I've seen some instances (of usually older MAPs or fanart at this point) which depict Squirrelflight as crying/sad during the fire scene (which she was not in canon) and I've also seen some comments questioning why Squirrelflight just did not attack Ashfur during it as well (not sure if those people knew she was still recovering from her injury sustained in the eclipse battle or not though). But in terms of the biggest piece of information getting adressed on this thread, most fans I've seen, who state the phrase of "why did Hollyleaf kill Ashfur to keep the secret when she then revealed it later on at the Gathering anyways", usually do mean it in the sense I do as well, seeing as Ashfur did know a part of the secret (Squirrelflight not being the Three's true mother) and wanted to reveal it, only for Hollyleaf to kill him because of those plans (and her emotions of fear for what would happen if it did came out/anger at him wanting to ruin her family making her spiral) while then indeed just telling everyone regardless despite killing Ashfur before that so he would not reveal things and the secret would be "safe" (only known by the ones involved). Not exactly sure if outright calling her a hypocrite in that situation is the correct term to use but it is indeed at least contradictory for her based on the action of killing Ashfur, so the secret (or rather just part of it at the time) wouldn't come out, only for her to then reveal it (in full) herself later on. Although it does make sense from a character standpoint (Hollyleaf's development in terms of her spiraling out of control). The way i see it is hollyleaf is utterly dedicated to the code. but ashfur is an existential threat to her and her brothers--she may be exiled for this. so she kills him to keep him quiet. but then. but then. She finds out that her very birth breaks two of the most sacred codes in the Clans! How can she let this deceit stand? If she's honorable, if she's anything more than a worthless bastard, she must expose these traitors. It's the only way she'll be able to live with herself, damn the consequences. As I said, it makes sense for Hollyleaf to expose the secret, after killing Ashfur to keep things quiet, from a character standpoint, seeing how much she valued the warrior code and how the whole truth about her parentage made her severly doubt her being worthy of her place in the Clans. But just from an outside perspective (not the narrative though since that too falls in line with Hollyleaf's characterization and mental downward spiral due to how the initial truth revealed in the fire scene by Squirrelflight had affected her so much), it does seem like a contradictory action on her part based on just looking at it without the important context of the story. |
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