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Post by nowarriornameshere on Dec 16, 2022 22:31:16 GMT -5
"At least the parent that helped bring you into the world can help send you right back out of it!"
Just read Onestar's Confession and I'm pretty sick of it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2022 22:57:59 GMT -5
Absolutely sick of it and genuinely disgusted by its use in Onestar's Confession to make Onestar feel better about his garbage actions.
It CAN be a neat set up, however it's use in Onestar's Confession left a bad taste in my mouth completely.
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Post by vectoring34 on Dec 16, 2022 23:23:22 GMT -5
I mean, we already have quite a few villains who weren't born evil. Ashfur, Mapleshade, Clear Sky, Scourge, Thistleclaw, and even Tigerstar weren't born evil. If Darktail was bad to begin with, he'd be in the minority with Brokenstar, so it's hard to say I'm getting sick of it when it's not happened all that often. This is doubly so when the book leaves it deliberately ambiguous, and we know this was intentionally the case due to the poll on the site as well. So if you don't want him to be born evil, that's a totally valid interpretation too.
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Post by Jaysnow on Dec 17, 2022 1:32:50 GMT -5
The latter. It disgusted me reading that sh*t in OC.
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Post by daurianwind on Dec 17, 2022 1:53:00 GMT -5
Being โborn evilโ, โhave a destiny to become a villainโ - itโs a problem because sounds like this character hasnโt got freedom will and freedom of choice - so itโs unfair to him, because no chance to be a good, and embarrassing for readers, because what will be if he see himself in this โborn evilโ or what if he decide what it doesnโt matter what he doing, just where he was born.
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Post by ๐ฑ๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐ on Dec 17, 2022 7:47:35 GMT -5
Since there've only been overall two characters in this series who got ouright stated to "be born evil", which were Brokenstar and Darktail (although technically Tigerstar too considering that StarClan told Pinestar to kill Tigerkit since he would "destroy the forest" and Goosefeather told Bluefur/star this as well), it hasn't happened that often but enough times for me to be sick of it, for sure. The concept/belief of people or, in this case characters, to be born evil is not something I'm a fan of either because it's usually just not the case and feels like a cop-out in terms of the fictional aspect in writing such characterization instead of giving actual reasons for a character to be evil, in my opinion.
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Post by vectoring34 on Dec 17, 2022 10:31:58 GMT -5
Since there've only been overall two characters in this series who got ouright stated to "be born evil", which were Brokenstar and Darktail (although technically Tigerstar too considering that StarClan told Pinestar to kill Tigerkit since he would "destroy the forest" and Goosefeather told Bluefur/star this as well), it hasn't happened that often but enough times for me to be sick of it, for sure. The concept/belief of people or, in this case characters, to be born evil is not something I'm a fan of either because it's usually just not the case and feels like a cop-out in terms of the fictional aspect in writing such characterization instead of giving actual reasons for a character to be evil, in my opinion. Pinestar's Choice has Starclan Doestar explicitly telling him that Tigerkit could be a great leader if he was guided properly before he's born. Pinestar then has a nightmare, not a Starclan dream, where he imagines Starclan telling him to kill Tigerkit. Even if we assume the nightmare was a real Starclan vision, it has more to do with Pinestar's behavior than Tigerkit being born evil. Pinestar was already doubting clan life and neglecting his fatherly responsibilities, there's a certain point where his own bad decisions cut off other paths.
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Post by ๐ฑ๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐ on Dec 17, 2022 12:27:14 GMT -5
Since there've only been overall two characters in this series who got ouright stated to "be born evil", which were Brokenstar and Darktail (although technically Tigerstar too considering that StarClan told Pinestar to kill Tigerkit since he would "destroy the forest" and Goosefeather told Bluefur/star this as well), it hasn't happened that often but enough times for me to be sick of it, for sure. The concept/belief of people or, in this case characters, to be born evil is not something I'm a fan of either because it's usually just not the case and feels like a cop-out in terms of the fictional aspect in writing such characterization instead of giving actual reasons for a character to be evil, in my opinion. Pinestar's Choice has Starclan Doestar explicitly telling him that Tigerkit could be a great leader if he was guided properly before he's born. Pinestar then has a nightmare, not a Starclan dream, where he imagines Starclan telling him to kill Tigerkit. Even if we assume the nightmare was a real Starclan vision, it has more to do with Pinestar's behavior than Tigerkit being born evil. Pinestar was already doubting clan life and neglecting his fatherly responsibilities, there's a certain point where his own bad decisions cut off other paths. That does't change the fact that Goosefeather somehow knew exactly what Pinestar dreamt about and confronted him about it after he woke up. Seeing as Goosefeather himself had such a strong connection to StarClan that he was outright plagued by constantly receiving visions/prophecies from them in his later years, means there was at least some truth to the fact that StarClan had something to do with Pinestar's dream. Even if it was not a direct vision for him from them. Also, while it is certainly true that Doestar told Pinestar that his son would have to be raised right to overcome the shadow of his destiny of having the power to destroy ThunderClan, this doesn't change yet the other fact either of Tigerkit/star thus indeed having the potential for turning out evil from birth. And StarClan knew that from the beginning. Yes, he might've not turned out the way he did if Pinestar just hadn't abandoned him and had been there to raise his son and see him grow up. But that's not what ended up happening since Pinestar interpreted that warning from StarClan to be the so called final push for him to take a different path by then turning his back on ThunderClan and becoming a kittypet instead.
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Post by vectoring34 on Dec 17, 2022 12:57:23 GMT -5
Pinestar's Choice has Starclan Doestar explicitly telling him that Tigerkit could be a great leader if he was guided properly before he's born. Pinestar then has a nightmare, not a Starclan dream, where he imagines Starclan telling him to kill Tigerkit. Even if we assume the nightmare was a real Starclan vision, it has more to do with Pinestar's behavior than Tigerkit being born evil. Pinestar was already doubting clan life and neglecting his fatherly responsibilities, there's a certain point where his own bad decisions cut off other paths. That does't change the fact that Goosefeather somehow knew exactly what Pinestar dreamt about and confronted him about it after he woke up. Seeing as Goosefeather himself had such a strong connection to StarClan that he was outright plagued by constantly receiving visions/prophecies from them in his later years, means there was at least some truth to the fact that StarClan had something to do with Pinestar's dream. Even if it was not a direct vision for him from them. Also, while it is certainly true that Doestar told Pinestar that his son would have to be raised right to overcome the shadow of his destiny of having the power to destroy ThunderClan, this doesn't change yet the other fact either of Tigerkit/star thus indeed having the potential for turning out evil from birth. And StarClan knew that from the beginning. Yes, he might've not turned out the way he did if Pinestar just hadn't abandoned him and had been there to raise his son and see him grow up. But that's not what ended up happening since Pinestar interpreted that warning from StarClan to be the so called final push for him to take a different path by then turning his back on ThunderClan and becoming a kittypet instead. The same Goosefeather who also came up with the idea to attack Windclan isn't exactly what I'd call the best interpreter of signs. We know he's unreliable. I don't see your point with saying Tigerkit had the potential to be evil from birth. Yes, of course he did, so does every cat, there's nothing special about that. What was special about Tigerkit was that he had immense talent and power, something which needed to be trained properly so he uses it wisely. This has nothing to do with him being born evil, however, but with him having the potential to be more dangerous than most if he did in fact turn out bad later in life. Which is the whole reason why it was so important for Pinestar to guide him, but Pinestar ended up just not doing that. That was Pinestar's choice and it had repercussions for the future, and in that sense, Tigerkit was doomed from a pretty early age, but that's because the adults around him funneled him into a path that they knew was a terrible idea.
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Post by ๐ฑ๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐ on Dec 17, 2022 13:30:31 GMT -5
That does't change the fact that Goosefeather somehow knew exactly what Pinestar dreamt about and confronted him about it after he woke up. Seeing as Goosefeather himself had such a strong connection to StarClan that he was outright plagued by constantly receiving visions/prophecies from them in his later years, means there was at least some truth to the fact that StarClan had something to do with Pinestar's dream. Even if it was not a direct vision for him from them. Also, while it is certainly true that Doestar told Pinestar that his son would have to be raised right to overcome the shadow of his destiny of having the power to destroy ThunderClan, this doesn't change yet the other fact either of Tigerkit/star thus indeed having the potential for turning out evil from birth. And StarClan knew that from the beginning. Yes, he might've not turned out the way he did if Pinestar just hadn't abandoned him and had been there to raise his son and see him grow up. But that's not what ended up happening since Pinestar interpreted that warning from StarClan to be the so called final push for him to take a different path by then turning his back on ThunderClan and becoming a kittypet instead. The same Goosefeather who also came up with the idea to attack Windclan isn't exactly what I'd call the best interpreter of signs. We know he's unreliable. I don't see your point with saying Tigerkit had the potential to be evil from birth. Yes, of course he did, so does every cat, there's nothing special about that. What was special about Tigerkit was that he had immense talent and power, something which needed to be trained properly so he uses it wisely. This has nothing to do with him being born evil, however, but with him having the potential to be more dangerous than most if he did in fact turn out bad later in life. Which is the whole reason why it was so important for Pinestar to guide him, but Pinestar ended up just not doing that. That was Pinestar's choice and it had repercussions for the future, and in that sense, Tigerkit was doomed from a pretty early age, but that's because the adults around him funneled him into a path that they knew was a terrible idea. But Goosefeather still somehow knew what Pinestar's dream had been about. And since he's no Jayfeather who can just walk in the dreams of other cats whenever he wants, it means there had to indeed be some involvment from StarClan directly, even if it was not a direct vision. How else would he have known about it? Also, Goosefeather never outright interpreted the dream Pinestar had. He at first indeed asked Pinestar if had a bad dream but then not long afterwards suggested for him to listen to StarClan. Which thus implied StarClan had something to do with this dream and also that he himself knew about what they had told Pinestar since he later on repeated the sentiment of Tigerkit/star being meant to have died instead of staying alive to Bluefur/star. I do agree that Goosefeather was not exactly a reliable source of sign interpretation during his later years but that seems to have been the point of his characterization. Seeing as his niece also doubted his words but his prophecy from StarClan about her turned out to be true (which he revealed long after the WindClan disaster but before Tigerstar was born). Look, my point was not that Tigerstar had the potential to be evil (because you're definitely right that everyone has that potential) but rather that StarClan told Pinestar this for a reason in regards to his son. Otherwise, what stops them from marching up to every leader who is a parent and just telling them their kit could be evil if it wasn't for an actual important reason (or in Pinestar's case moreso a warning)? I agree that Pinestar staying and helping to raise Tigerstar instead of abandoning him could have saved him from his villainous fate but that is getting into What-if scenarios since there were multiple factors in Tigerstar's life who later on affected him. Not just his absent father. There was his bloodthirsty mentor Thistleclaw who encouraged his more violent tendencies and Mapleshade who was revealed to have also whispered into his ears about seizing power (a revelation which I still hate). Blaming Tigerkit/star becoming evil soely on Pinestar just doesn't seem fair, in my opinion. He certainly played a part in it but was not the only one responsible for the eventual outcome.
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Post by Quill on Dec 17, 2022 13:54:37 GMT -5
I think it can work if done well and sparingly. Maybe not "born evil," but I am fascinated by the idea that someone could grow up favoring cruelty and manipulation even if they were raised in a loving, supportive environment. I've heard stories of that happening, albeit rarely.
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Post by vectoring34 on Dec 17, 2022 14:05:44 GMT -5
The same Goosefeather who also came up with the idea to attack Windclan isn't exactly what I'd call the best interpreter of signs. We know he's unreliable. I don't see your point with saying Tigerkit had the potential to be evil from birth. Yes, of course he did, so does every cat, there's nothing special about that. What was special about Tigerkit was that he had immense talent and power, something which needed to be trained properly so he uses it wisely. This has nothing to do with him being born evil, however, but with him having the potential to be more dangerous than most if he did in fact turn out bad later in life. Which is the whole reason why it was so important for Pinestar to guide him, but Pinestar ended up just not doing that. That was Pinestar's choice and it had repercussions for the future, and in that sense, Tigerkit was doomed from a pretty early age, but that's because the adults around him funneled him into a path that they knew was a terrible idea. But Goosefeather still somehow knew what Pinestar's dream had been about. And since he's no Jayfeather who can just walk in the dreams of other cats whenever he wants, it means there had to indeed be some involvment from StarClan directly, even if it was not a direct vision. How else would he have known about it? Also, Goosefeather never outright interpreted the dream Pinestar had. He at first indeed asked Pinestar if had a bad dream but then not long afterwards suggested for him to listen to StarClan. Which thus implied StarClan had something to do with this dream and also that he himself knew about what they had told Pinestar since he later on repeated the sentiment of Tigerkit/star being meant to have died instead of staying alive to Bluefur/star. I do agree that Goosefeather was not exactly a reliable source of sign interpretation during his later years but that seems to have been the point of his characterization. Seeing as his niece also doubted his words but his prophecy from StarClan about her turned out to be true (which he revealed long after the WindClan disaster but before Tigerstar was born). Look, my point was not that Tigerstar had the potential to be evil (because you're definitely right that everyone has that potential) but rather that StarClan told Pinestar this for a reason in regards to his son. Otherwise, what stops them from marching up to every leader who is a parent and just telling them their kit could be evil if it wasn't for an actual important reason (or in Pinestar's case moreso a warning)? I agree that Pinestar staying and helping to raise Tigerstar instead of abandoning him could have saved him from his villainous fate but that is getting into What-if scenarios since there were multiple factors in Tigerstar's life who later on affected him. Not just his absent father. There was his bloodthirsty mentor Thistleclaw who encouraged his more violent tendencies and Mapleshade who was revealed to have also whispered into his ears about seizing power (a revelation which I still hate). Blaming Tigerkit/star becoming evil soely on Pinestar just doesn't seem fair, in my opinion. He certainly played a part in it but was not the only one responsible for the eventual outcome. Goosefeather can also see the future to some extent. He doesn't need Starclan involvement in a dream to know that Pinestar is worried about what Starclan is telling him and will try to leave the clan in the immediate future. It's possible the dream was legit Starclan messaging, but as presented in the story, it's a lot less clearcut than Doestar's message. And as for Goosefeather's opinion on Bluestar, I'd argue that's actually another example where he interpreted badly. We know Sunstar wouldn't have picked Thistleclaw anyway, so all his vision really did was doom Mosskit and cause Bluestar incredible emotional pain in her ambition. He was correct only to a certain degree there. Doestar warned Pinestar because Tigerkit would be powerful, that much is said outright. There's a difference between someone like, say, Brokenstar going bad and Tigerstar going bad. Brokenstar was a tragedy for Shadowclan, but ultimately he was a loser who was out of his depth just trying to govern Shadowclan and was never a serious threat to all the clans. Tigerstar, on the other hand, was on the verge of destroying all the clans. The consequences for a kit going bad become much more extreme when they have that much more wit, strength, and social connections, which Tigerkit was lucky enough to be born with. Those same traits though could also make him a great leader, and Doestar says as much in her message. Which is really what it's all about, that Tigerkit has great potential for either extreme evil or great good, and I'd say that certainly merits a message without necessarily judging that he will be evil. Yes, the whole thing isn't entirely Pinestar's fault, but he was the leader of Thunderclan at the time and Tigerkit's father, and his departure set the stage for things to go downhill. There's at least some share of blame to be had for being essentially the inciting incident. Anyway, even if he lacked in fault compared to Thistleclaw, the point would stand that Tigerkit became the way he was due to his environment.
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Post by ๐ฑ๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐ on Dec 17, 2022 14:29:57 GMT -5
But Goosefeather still somehow knew what Pinestar's dream had been about. And since he's no Jayfeather who can just walk in the dreams of other cats whenever he wants, it means there had to indeed be some involvment from StarClan directly, even if it was not a direct vision. How else would he have known about it? Also, Goosefeather never outright interpreted the dream Pinestar had. He at first indeed asked Pinestar if had a bad dream but then not long afterwards suggested for him to listen to StarClan. Which thus implied StarClan had something to do with this dream and also that he himself knew about what they had told Pinestar since he later on repeated the sentiment of Tigerkit/star being meant to have died instead of staying alive to Bluefur/star. I do agree that Goosefeather was not exactly a reliable source of sign interpretation during his later years but that seems to have been the point of his characterization. Seeing as his niece also doubted his words but his prophecy from StarClan about her turned out to be true (which he revealed long after the WindClan disaster but before Tigerstar was born). Look, my point was not that Tigerstar had the potential to be evil (because you're definitely right that everyone has that potential) but rather that StarClan told Pinestar this for a reason in regards to his son. Otherwise, what stops them from marching up to every leader who is a parent and just telling them their kit could be evil if it wasn't for an actual important reason (or in Pinestar's case moreso a warning)? I agree that Pinestar staying and helping to raise Tigerstar instead of abandoning him could have saved him from his villainous fate but that is getting into What-if scenarios since there were multiple factors in Tigerstar's life who later on affected him. Not just his absent father. There was his bloodthirsty mentor Thistleclaw who encouraged his more violent tendencies and Mapleshade who was revealed to have also whispered into his ears about seizing power (a revelation which I still hate). Blaming Tigerkit/star becoming evil soely on Pinestar just doesn't seem fair, in my opinion. He certainly played a part in it but was not the only one responsible for the eventual outcome. Goosefeather can also see the future to some extent. He doesn't need Starclan involvement in a dream to know that Pinestar is worried about what Starclan is telling him and will try to leave the clan in the immediate future. It's possible the dream was legit Starclan messaging, but as presented in the story, it's a lot less clearcut than Doestar's message. And as for Goosefeather's opinion on Bluestar, I'd argue that's actually another example where he interpreted badly. We know Sunstar wouldn't have picked Thistleclaw anyway, so all his vision really did was doom Mosskit and cause Bluestar incredible emotional pain in her ambition. He was correct only to a certain degree there. Doestar warned Pinestar because Tigerkit would be powerful, that much is said outright. There's a difference between someone like, say, Brokenstar going bad and Tigerstar going bad. Brokenstar was a tragedy for Shadowclan, but ultimately he was a loser who was out of his depth just trying to govern Shadowclan and was never a serious threat to all the clans. Tigerstar, on the other hand, was on the verge of destroying all the clans. The consequences for a kit going bad become much more extreme when they have that much more wit, strength, and social connections, which Tigerkit was lucky enough to be born with. Those same traits though could also make him a great leader, and Doestar says as much in her message. Which is really what it's all about, that Tigerkit has great potential for either extreme evil or great good, and I'd say that certainly merits a message without necessarily judging that he will be evil. Yes, the whole thing isn't entirely Pinestar's fault, but he was the leader of Thunderclan at the time and Tigerkit's father, and his departure set the stage for things to go downhill. There's at least some share of blame to be had for being essentially the inciting incident. Anyway, even if he lacked in fault compared to Thistleclaw, the point would stand that Tigerkit became the way he was due to his environment. I agree with Goosefeather mostly being prone to interpreting things badly (and have pointed out the fact that Sunstar would have appointed Bluefur as deputy over Thistleclaw anyways on past threads as well). Now, the question of wether or not Pinestar's dream really was a StarClan message or not being too vaguley presented in PC just leads into speculation/interpretation territory and I'm not sure us discussing it further will really get us anywhere since I think it was a dream sent by StarClan while you don't think so or rather see it as just a possibilty and not a fact. So, it just seems best to agree to disagree. Hoping that's alright with you? Considering that other cats have also said that Tigerstar could have indeed been a great leader if he had chosen to wait for power to come to him, instead of using villainy to get it, by both Firestar (his greatest enemy) and Longtail (his former follower) already said a lot about the possibility of him having the potential to be good. Wasn't there an article written by Vicky years ago about discussing this as well? "Tigerstar: Heart of Evil?" was it called, I think. I'm in agreement that Pinestar is anything but blameless in this situation. And yes, Tigerstar's enviroment or rather some of the authority figures around him were who shaped him into the cat we met in the first arc.
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