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Post by cygna on Dec 9, 2022 23:18:26 GMT -5
This woman named her son after Spiresight, an outsider, yet she dislikes Blazefire who came from the same place as Spiresight but she doesn’t see him as truly ShadowClan despite living in ShadowClan since he was a kit.
And then, the way she treats Fringewhisker is just so horrible. Berryheart’s reason for hating her is that “she’ll always have a paw back in SkyClan” yet she, a full “true” ShadowClan cat, ditched ShadowClan for the kin and was happy there until her daughter freaking died.
She’s such a raging hypocrite. If she wants to be bigoted, she at least needs to have a reason.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Dec 9, 2022 23:57:36 GMT -5
since i agree with berryheart about the whole code part of things, i'll explain from her POV in my own words. once again just clarifying: i dont agree with berryheart taking things too far in the recent book. i only agree with the part about not liking the code changing.
it's not 100% about outsiders being outsiders. it's about wanting to perserve the code and the meaning of loyalty itself, the very aspects the clans were founded on. the changing of the code, specifically getting rid of smoe codes altogehter, means disrespecting the clans very existence. without loyalty, who r they? it just so happens that she can pin this frustration over the code on people she sees as disloyal. people who disrespect the code like this are seen as horrible to her. edit: forgot to add the part about her having lived through the whole darktail thing. cats like her will want to cling to structure, and the changing of the code so soon after darktail and ashfur means the clans wont have true stability for while again until its all sorted out and agreed upon.
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Post by Hollyfall on Dec 10, 2022 0:43:50 GMT -5
I actually where she's coming from makes sense, and it's even pointed out in the books that she's acting the way she is because of her experience with the Kin. Sunbeam mentions that Berryheart practically drilled into hers and her brothers' heads that loyalty to your Clan and kin is the most important thing, and Berryheart herself says that abandoning ShadowClan back in AVoS was the worst mistake she's ever made and doesn't want history to potentially repeat itself. It took losing Needletail, Darktail's tyranny, and realizing ShadowClan completely collapsed to understand that for her. Besides, look at who's included in her little circle forming in Sky; they're all cats who willingly joined the Kin, or were absorbed into it by proxy. They understand the structure and stability a Clan needs to function.
That said, the way she treats Fringewhisker is absolutely horrible and blaming her for every minor inconvenience isn't the way to go about it. I really cannot see her treating Nightheart any better in the next book. That, and Berryheart just really reminds me of a boomer who things all change is awful and watch way too many conspiracy theories that are taken as fact.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Happy Halloween!
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Dec 10, 2022 5:58:08 GMT -5
I still hope Berryheart becomes a full on villain and considering that a lot of villains are indeed hypocrites, I'm neither suprised nor mad that she might be turning out to be one as well. And as Hollyfall pointed out, the reason why she's so against outsiders these days is because of what happened during her time with The Kin. She regrets having ever joined them, after all (Darktail trying to personally drown her in the TH short manga at the end of that SE probably contributed to that guily realization and even some form of trauma from such an experience as well). And she wants to thus make up for it by now being completely loyal to ShadowClan and following the Warrior Code. Berryheart's current characterization as of ASC makes sense, in my own opinion. |
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Dec 11, 2022 1:17:53 GMT -5
I can kinda see Berryheart’s reasoning regarding Fringewhisker. She is right that Fringe will always have a bit of loyalty to her family and friends back in SkyClan.
Her disliking Blazefire really makes no sense.
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Post by thehiddenicewolf on Dec 11, 2022 3:28:23 GMT -5
I see your point, I'm thinking that it would make more sense for Yarrowleaf to have berryheart's role considering that she was once loyal to the kin and willingly took part in killing cats and even had kits with nettle, so it would be totally reasonable for her to be extremely against outsiders.
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Post by nowarriornameshere on Dec 11, 2022 4:51:04 GMT -5
I still hope Berryheart becomes a full on villain and considering that a lot of villains are indeed hypocrites, I'm neither suprised nor mad that she might be turning out to be one as well. And as Hollyfall pointed out, the reason why she's so against outsiders these days is because of what happened during her time with The Kin. She regrets having ever joined them, after all (Darktail trying to personally drown her in the TH short manga at the end of that SE probably contributed to that guily realization and even some form of trauma from such an experience as well). And she wants to thus make up for it by now being completely loyal to ShadowClan and following the Warrior Code. Berryheart's current characterization as of ASC makes sense, in my own opinion. She won't become a full on villain for the exact same reason she's doing her Trump shit right now; she's so obsessed with sticking to a certain vision of what Shadowclan ought to be like that she would never actually consider any actions that would put her into "actually evil" territory. She is outright hostile and cruel to her daughter-in-law, for example, but she wouldn't consider enacting physical violence against her or murdering her to be an acceptable resolution (at least as far as we can tell). |
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Happy Halloween!
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Dec 11, 2022 5:20:10 GMT -5
I still hope Berryheart becomes a full on villain and considering that a lot of villains are indeed hypocrites, I'm neither suprised nor mad that she might be turning out to be one as well. And as Hollyfall pointed out, the reason why she's so against outsiders these days is because of what happened during her time with The Kin. She regrets having ever joined them, after all (Darktail trying to personally drown her in the TH short manga at the end of that SE probably contributed to that guily realization and even some form of trauma from such an experience as well). And she wants to thus make up for it by now being completely loyal to ShadowClan and following the Warrior Code. Berryheart's current characterization as of ASC makes sense, in my own opinion. She won't become a full on villain for the exact same reason she's doing her Trump shit right now; she's so obsessed with sticking to a certain vision of what Shadowclan ought to be like that she would never actually consider any actions that would put her into "actually evil" territory. She is outright hostile and cruel to her daughter-in-law, for example, but she wouldn't consider enacting physical violence against her or murdering her to be an acceptable resolution (at least as far as we can tell). We shall see. There are only two books of ASC out so far and a lot of things can still happen including Berryheart as a villain. That is my own take on the matter but you are of course free to disagree with me. |
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Post by Quill on Dec 11, 2022 13:30:51 GMT -5
In real life, though, bigots are often hypocritical and illogical.
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Dec 11, 2022 21:22:44 GMT -5
Tbh as others said, it makes sense for her to be this way. Her Clan was nearly destroyed by outsiders before. I'd imagine she has some serious trauma from that.
Doesn't not make her a hypocrite though. Or right. But I do get where shes coming from
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Post by Hollyfall on Dec 11, 2022 21:58:19 GMT -5
I can kinda see Berryheart’s reasoning regarding Fringewhisker. She is right that Fringe will always have a bit of loyalty to her family and friends back in SkyClan. Her disliking Blazefire really makes no sense. I suppose you could reason she's alright with the cats like Blazefire is because they actually spent time together in TS? I would have to read the book again but I think there was a line about Blazefire helping look after the kits when she couldn't. Makes sense she would prefer Blazefire as opposed to Fringewhisker in that case. Just my two cents on it though. |
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Dec 12, 2022 9:26:12 GMT -5
I can kinda see Berryheart’s reasoning regarding Fringewhisker. She is right that Fringe will always have a bit of loyalty to her family and friends back in SkyClan. Her disliking Blazefire really makes no sense. I suppose you could reason she's alright with the cats like Blazefire is because they actually spent time together in TS? I would have to read the book again but I think there was a line about Blazefire helping look after the kits when she couldn't. Makes sense she would prefer Blazefire as opposed to Fringewhisker in that case. Just my two cents on it though. I thought she disliked Blazefire too? That is what OP said |
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Post by starlightstoryteller on Dec 17, 2022 16:37:13 GMT -5
since i agree with berryheart about the whole code part of things, i'll explain from her POV in my own words. once again just clarifying: i dont agree with berryheart taking things too far in the recent book. i only agree with the part about not liking the code changing. it's not 100% about outsiders being outsiders. it's about wanting to perserve the code and the meaning of loyalty itself, the very aspects the clans were founded on. the changing of the code, specifically getting rid of smoe codes altogehter, means disrespecting the clans very existence. without loyalty, who r they? it just so happens that she can pin this frustration over the code on people she sees as disloyal. people who disrespect the code like this are seen as horrible to her. edit: forgot to add the part about her having lived through the whole darktail thing. cats like her will want to cling to structure, and the changing of the code so soon after darktail and ashfur means the clans wont have true stability for while again until its all sorted out and agreed upon. .....huh? the clans have an identity seperate from the codes about mates. the most notable things abt them is their aggressive xenophobia and the fact that they care for their vulnerable, but caring for the vulnerable isn't a clan-exclusive thing. I thought it was pretty clear to everyone that certain parts of the code were flawed, as is the obsession with clan loyalty. the mate codes have literally been only used for pointless tragedy and are most of the reason the clans are so hopelessly incest heavy. most of the problems with cross-clan relationships are bc theyre illegal; the other bits are solved with the leaders and cats involved simply having a modicum of emotional intelligence. ffs, the situation that sparked the mate code in the first place is utterly nonsensical--ryewhisker died defending his pregnant wife on the battlefield, and the clan of his wife didn't matter. but instead of outlawing murder or even going 'hey maybe dont put pregnant cats in serious harm' the clans decided. to outlaw half-clan relationships like. imagine being cloudberry. you're grieving your dead husband. wondering if you'll have the strength to carry on and raise your kits. the leaders come back, announcing "congratulations! we've made sure this will NEVER happen again!" and you're like "woah...no more killing people on the battlefield?" but nope. your relationship has been made retroactively illegal, solving nothing. what the HECK. |
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Dec 17, 2022 17:00:37 GMT -5
since i agree with berryheart about the whole code part of things, i'll explain from her POV in my own words. once again just clarifying: i dont agree with berryheart taking things too far in the recent book. i only agree with the part about not liking the code changing. it's not 100% about outsiders being outsiders. it's about wanting to perserve the code and the meaning of loyalty itself, the very aspects the clans were founded on. the changing of the code, specifically getting rid of smoe codes altogehter, means disrespecting the clans very existence. without loyalty, who r they? it just so happens that she can pin this frustration over the code on people she sees as disloyal. people who disrespect the code like this are seen as horrible to her. edit: forgot to add the part about her having lived through the whole darktail thing. cats like her will want to cling to structure, and the changing of the code so soon after darktail and ashfur means the clans wont have true stability for while again until its all sorted out and agreed upon. .....huh? the clans have an identity seperate from the codes about mates. the most notable things abt them is their aggressive xenophobia and the fact that they care for their vulnerable, but caring for the vulnerable isn't a clan-exclusive thing. I thought it was pretty clear to everyone that certain parts of the code were flawed, as is the obsession with clan loyalty. the mate codes have literally been only used for pointless tragedy and are most of the reason the clans are so hopelessly incest heavy. most of the problems with cross-clan relationships are bc theyre illegal; the other bits are solved with the leaders and cats involved simply having a modicum of emotional intelligence. ffs, the situation that sparked the mate code in the first place is utterly nonsensical--ryewhisker died defending his pregnant wife on the battlefield, and the clan of his wife didn't matter. but instead of outlawing murder or even going 'hey maybe dont put pregnant cats in serious harm' the clans decided. to outlaw half-clan relationships like. imagine being cloudberry. you're grieving your dead husband. wondering if you'll have the strength to carry on and raise your kits. the leaders come back, announcing "congratulations! we've made sure this will NEVER happen again!" and you're like "woah...no more killing people on the battlefield?" but nope. your relationship has been made retroactively illegal, solving nothing. what the HECK. its bc loyalties werent taken seriously that the cloudberry thing even happened. rye was being too lax and didnt worry, so when problems between their clans did arise, he betrayed his clan for the enemy (at the time. battles will come and go bc of land and prey disputes). loyalty should mean putting ur clan first. loyalty is what the clans were built off of. its bc rye didnt have true loyalty to his clan first that he attacked his own clanmate and got killed (if im getting the specific details wrong on how he died, feel free to correct me). "be loyal to ur clan or else" isnt bad on paper. the clans r like one big family, especialy overtime how bloodlines intermingle. betraying ur family for an enemy family is wrong. i actually like the code changing but they havent addressed my issues yet (and i'll just wait and see in ASC so my opinion isnt set in stone as it was before bc i said in a thread not too long ago that they should have changed this code ages ago, like back after leaf x crow in oots, back when this problem was way more relevant to everyone and the audience). even if u do change loyalty and leave ur family behind for a spouse, u will never FULLY change loyalty. u can take new oaths to ur new clan and SAY u will stay and be loyal for ur new mate, but if there ever was a situation where u had to choose between ur mates clan or ur birth clan, u will still have trouble deciding who matters more...bc its a betrayal. u betrayed ur entire family for some person u met in secret. u cant suddenly turn ur back on ur entire family unless they treated u like crap (like how nighthearts being treated so far in ASC). |
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Post by daurianwind on Dec 17, 2022 17:22:12 GMT -5
Berry just need victim - Fringewhisker for her seems as easy target.
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Post by starlightstoryteller on Dec 17, 2022 18:20:32 GMT -5
.....huh? the clans have an identity seperate from the codes about mates. the most notable things abt them is their aggressive xenophobia and the fact that they care for their vulnerable, but caring for the vulnerable isn't a clan-exclusive thing. I thought it was pretty clear to everyone that certain parts of the code were flawed, as is the obsession with clan loyalty. the mate codes have literally been only used for pointless tragedy and are most of the reason the clans are so hopelessly incest heavy. most of the problems with cross-clan relationships are bc theyre illegal; the other bits are solved with the leaders and cats involved simply having a modicum of emotional intelligence. ffs, the situation that sparked the mate code in the first place is utterly nonsensical--ryewhisker died defending his pregnant wife on the battlefield, and the clan of his wife didn't matter. but instead of outlawing murder or even going 'hey maybe dont put pregnant cats in serious harm' the clans decided. to outlaw half-clan relationships like. imagine being cloudberry. you're grieving your dead husband. wondering if you'll have the strength to carry on and raise your kits. the leaders come back, announcing "congratulations! we've made sure this will NEVER happen again!" and you're like "woah...no more killing people on the battlefield?" but nope. your relationship has been made retroactively illegal, solving nothing. what the HECK. its bc loyalties werent taken seriously that the cloudberry thing even happened. rye was being too lax and didnt worry, so when problems between their clans did arise, he betrayed his clan for the enemy (at the time. battles will come and go bc of land and prey disputes). loyalty should mean putting ur clan first. loyalty is what the clans were built off of. its bc rye didnt have true loyalty to his clan first that he attacked his own clanmate and got killed (if im getting the specific details wrong on how he died, feel free to correct me). "be loyal to ur clan or else" isnt bad on paper. the clans r like one big family, especialy overtime how bloodlines intermingle. betraying ur family for an enemy family is wrong. i actually like the code changing but they havent addressed my issues yet (and i'll just wait and see in ASC so my opinion isnt set in stone as it was before bc i said in a thread not too long ago that they should have changed this code ages ago, like back after leaf x crow in oots, back when this problem was way more relevant to everyone and the audience). even if u do change loyalty and leave ur family behind for a spouse, u will never FULLY change loyalty. u can take new oaths to ur new clan and SAY u will stay and be loyal for ur new mate, but if there ever was a situation where u had to choose between ur mates clan or ur birth clan, u will still have trouble deciding who matters more...bc its a betrayal. u betrayed ur entire family for some person u met in secret. u cant suddenly turn ur back on ur entire family unless they treated u like crap (like how nighthearts being treated so far in ASC). according to his wikipage, he doesn't actually attack his clanmate, just stops her from harming her. and honest to god even if that was just a random queen it would be noble to stop your clanmate from attacking a cat you KNOW is carrying kits. and he got killed by a random riverclan warrior jumping him. i agree with you abt the second point, because it creates an even bigger loyalty dissonance than just. letting cats in 2 different clans be mates. if i was the writer, that's how i'd handle it. they don't NEED to live in the same clan. |
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