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Post by Brownkitty on Nov 20, 2022 2:45:06 GMT -5
I saw many fans who like Bramblestar or Squirrelflight a lot, but dont like the other one. These two seem to be liked almost evenly so Im curious whos more popular. Whats your opinion?
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Nov 20, 2022 4:03:54 GMT -5
squirrelflight is an awful character. bramblestar gets written ooc every time just to make her look better. i will always defend bramblestar.
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Post by Sphinxwhisker on Nov 20, 2022 4:08:13 GMT -5
Bramblestar’s my 2nd favorite character. So he’s my obvious choice.
I used to really like Squirrelflight…. But ever since Vicky stopped writing her character. My appeal for her has gradually declined, as with the quality of her character imo. Which is a shame, because I really enjoy her in Vicky’s work. But honestly find her rather grating in everything post BrS, except for the Bonus scene in TAQ, that’s the lonely exception.
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Nov 20, 2022 7:04:18 GMT -5
I like both!
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Post by whitestormyaboi on Nov 20, 2022 8:22:07 GMT -5
As character arc Bramblestar As protagonist Squirrelflight But OVR Bramblestar
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Non-binary
flipwish
when do we get more hairless warrior cats
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Post by flipwish on Nov 20, 2022 10:56:18 GMT -5
I don't even really care about squirrelflight much but she wins out of these two every time for me because she isn't bramblestar. that's just how it is with Bramblestar
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Nov 20, 2022 11:19:56 GMT -5
I still adore both of them as individual characters, just never together as a romantic pairing. But in terms of who is more popular in the overall fandom, it most definitely is Squirrelflight, especially ever since 2020 when the problematic nature of their relationship was more discussed on other platforms (Youtube in particular) than it has been previously before.
Didn't vote for either of these two cats on here since I'm a fan of them pretty much on equal levels. Although I've got to say, even if Bramblestar somehow ends up winning this poll (which I'll highly doubt), that doesn't change the fact that he is currently one of the most hated figures in the entire Warrior Cats fanbase. Yes, there continue to be some readers who like him but he is by no means a popular character anymore (if he ever even was).
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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Nov 20, 2022 15:07:30 GMT -5
Possible ASC spoilers I find Squirrelflight to be more likable while Bramblestar is currently more interesting to me.
I'm going With SF because while I think Bramblestar is interesting I don't exactly like him
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Post by SquipyCheetah on Nov 20, 2022 15:23:19 GMT -5
I love both but Brambles is a special fav for me.
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Post by Rainfire on Nov 20, 2022 16:08:19 GMT -5
Squirrelflight by a country mile. I like Bramble, but he's never been a fav of mine.
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Post by Jaysnow on Nov 21, 2022 9:54:43 GMT -5
Bramblestar, not even a contest. Love that man.
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Post by 🐦silvermoon2🐦 on Nov 21, 2022 12:16:14 GMT -5
I like Bramblestar, but I love Squirrelflight more!! She is the best!
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Post by Fireleap on Nov 21, 2022 12:32:11 GMT -5
Bramblestar annoys me less.
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Post by Moonblazer on Nov 21, 2022 12:37:24 GMT -5
I prefer Bramblestar, personally.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 21, 2022 22:39:12 GMT -5
Personally I prefer Bramblestar, and I think a good amount of people on the forums like him at least? But overall, especially on other platforms and sites, Squirrelflight is definitely much more popular.
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Post by nowarriornameshere on Nov 21, 2022 23:02:10 GMT -5
Yay, "guaranteed replies: the topic".
Bramblestar. I want to cut Squirrelflight a little slack, considering part of her current unsympathetic streak is very clearly artificially produced as part of the Erins' plot to make Thunderclan a toxic shithole that Nightheart needs out of ASAP, but "undermining the hell out of Bramblestar by once again going behind his back because it's her way or highway" is not an even slightly new development for her, and my respect for her diminishes with each repeat offense. Bramblestar isn't a saint, and I'm disappointed on him for his recent attempt to take a page from Squirrelflight's book by sending their grandkid on a mission behind HER back, but he usually tries to do his best without violently shitting on the trust that people as close as he and Squirrelflight are supposed to hold, and is a mostly good and upstanding guy. I also don't really want to hold the Nightheart quest against him either; being hurt and angry is one thing, but being hurt and angry while also clearly mentally unwell is just such a bad spot for making decisions in.
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Post by deerspirit on Nov 22, 2022 8:19:03 GMT -5
Bramblestar by a ton. I have never cared much for Squirrelflight. I have always seen her as an entitled brat who is the queen of hypocrisy on par with Needletail, Sparkpelt, and Sky's Finchlight. She will always be one of my least favorite characters unless her character changes completely which is very unlikely.
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Post by sorrelheart909 on Nov 22, 2022 18:34:05 GMT -5
I think Bramblestar is an okay character, but in my opinion Squirrelflight is way better.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Nov 23, 2022 11:18:22 GMT -5
I've always liked Squirrelflight more. Bramblestar... not so much, especially with the way he behaved in SQH.
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Transgender
🌌dapple🌙 (formerly freckle)
I didn't get thunder yet but the one thing I wonder abt has been spoiled so should I still buy?
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Post by 🌌dapple🌙 (formerly freckle) on Nov 23, 2022 17:20:10 GMT -5
Everytime bramblestar is written ooc he's seen as a bad cat. Everytime squilf is written ooc she's seen as a victim of poor writing choices.
I used to just dislike Squlif but the more I see people justifying every single action she does the more I tend to like her less.
So I pick Bramble, though I don't think all too highly of him mostly because he's boring and old. He's C tier in my book. Him AND her both need to kick the bucket this arc I don't want to read through 5 more arcs of Squirrelstar. I'll literally drop the books unless they change her (in my opinion) frustrating and bossy personality
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Post by dinofelis on Nov 29, 2022 4:40:22 GMT -5
For the most part, I prefer Bramblestar.
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Post by starlightstoryteller on Dec 17, 2022 20:07:40 GMT -5
squirrelflight is an awful character. bramblestar gets written ooc every time just to make her look better. i will always defend bramblestar. i hate to say it but 'if he keeps getting written ooc' thats. just his character now. he's another victim of the erin's bad writing, because that is how he is characterized now. deeply frustrating, tbh. i LOVED bramblepaw! but then he goes back to train with his evil dad. he acts like squirrelflight is unreasonable for being suspicious of him when he KNOWS he is also hanging out with their evil dad. when she tries to reconcile and put the argument behind him he rejects this. he trains for MOONS behind her back, causes thunderclan to be attacked when he carelessly lets slip vulnerable information with no regard for clan loyalty to hawkfrost and BLAMES LEAFPOOL FOR IT, publically, accuses her of being disloyal, and then when he realizes 'wait it mustve been me' when the other medcats are ????? he doesn't apologize bc that'd implicate him in the df thing. he jumps on squirrelflight for 'lying to him' and 'not trusting him' when To This Day he never told her about the dark forest, even though his tomfoolery with his evil dad and brother indirectly lead to her dad nearly dying. squirrelflight, at least, had good reason--starclan, including her dead friend feathertail, pressured her into this and told her not to tell bramblestar! he abandons his kits after the secret comes out because 'theyre not his by blood'. he forces his own son into the medicine den. he nearly lets a cat bleed out mere feet away from the medicine den. he attacks the camp of a pregnant queen rather than just waiting a couple moons. he refuses to do his goddamn job and then gets pissy at squirrelflight when she has to do it for him. listen, i'm not saying squirrelflight is innocent in their relationship, far from it. they're both highly flawed characters. but to say squirrelflight is 'just terrible' while bramblestar is 'always ooc' is disingenuous.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Dec 17, 2022 20:55:52 GMT -5
squirrelflight is an awful character. bramblestar gets written ooc every time just to make her look better. i will always defend bramblestar. i hate to say it but 'if he keeps getting written ooc' thats. just his character now. he's another victim of the erin's bad writing, because that is how he is characterized now.
deeply frustrating, tbh.
i LOVED bramblepaw! but then he goes back to train with his evil dad. he acts like squirrelflight is unreasonable for being suspicious of him when he KNOWS he is also hanging out with their evil dad. when she tries to reconcile and put the argument behind him he rejects this. he trains for MOONS behind her back, causes thunderclan to be attacked when he carelessly lets slip vulnerable information with no regard for clan loyalty to hawkfrost and BLAMES LEAFPOOL FOR IT, publically, accuses her of being disloyal, and then when he realizes 'wait it mustve been me' when the other medcats are ????? he doesn't apologize bc that'd implicate him in the df thing.
he jumps on squirrelflight for 'lying to him' and 'not trusting him' when To This Day he never told her about the dark forest, even though his tomfoolery with his evil dad and brother indirectly lead to her dad nearly dying. squirrelflight, at least, had good reason--starclan, including her dead friend feathertail, pressured her into this and told her not to tell bramblestar!
he abandons his kits after the secret comes out because 'theyre not his by blood'.
he forces his own son into the medicine den.
he nearly lets a cat bleed out mere feet away from the medicine den.
he attacks the camp of a pregnant queen rather than just waiting a couple moons.
he refuses to do his goddamn job and then gets pissy at squirrelflight when she has to do it for him.
listen, i'm not saying squirrelflight is innocent in their relationship, far from it. they're both highly flawed characters. but to say squirrelflight is 'just terrible' while bramblestar is 'always ooc' is disingenuous. No where in canon was Squirrelflight aware that Brambleclaw was in the Dark Forest hanging around Tigerstar. And even then, Brambleclaw wasn't in the Dark Forest for him, he was there for Hawkfrost, his half brother whom he wanted to know more about. What Squirrelflight WAS mad at Brambleclaw about was the fact that he wanted to spend time with Hawkfrost over her. She was suspicious of Hawkfrost, but she had no basis at all for her suspicions other than him being Tigerstar's kin. Which Brambleclaw at the time was personally hurt by because he himself was very much struggling with that, since he looked a lot like his father, something he thought Squirrelflight would understand. She was shown in the books to be pointed toward him just for wanting to give his brother the benefit of the doubt, and then storm off to be around Ashfur just to make him upset. Squirrelflight knowing he was in the Dark Forest with Hawkfrost and Tigerstar wouldn't have changed anything in the plot, if not make things worse between them. Not to mention Tigerstar even states he was trying to connect with Brambleclaw's dreams for moons, but was unable to. And when he finally did, Brambleclaw was still guarded and untrusting of him, but only stayed, again, for Hawkfrost. Also which event are you referring to specifically here? Hawkfrost's plan to kill Firestar had nothing to do with Brambleclaw's choices. He did it as a test, between him and Tigerstar, towards Brambleclaw, because they believed he wasn't completely loyal to them yet. And he was right, he wasn't. Which is why in the end Brambleclaw chose to save Firestar, and even kill his own kin because of it. His kin whom he genuinely cared about and wanted to connect with. Also it's strange to blame Brambleclaw for that when it's Ashfur that blatantly betrays his clan and helps Hawkfrost lead Firestar into that trap in the first place in an attempt to get back at Squirrelflight. Leafpool is the one that knew about Brambleclaw's involvement with the Dark Forest, and had WAY MORE of a reason to not trust him than Squirrelflight ever did. But she buried those doubts when she saw that Brambleclaw was the one that saved her father, and chose him and their clan in the end despite his father's manipulation. Squirrelflight's reasoning up to that point was petty. Where in the books does it say that Feathertail told Squirrelflight to not tell Brambleclaw about the kits? In fact the reason he was more upset at Squirrelflight was the mere fact that she didn't trust him after everything they went through. He fully dedicated himself to her, their relationship, and serving his clan after the events of TNP. It was supposed to be a new change in his life for the better, but it's Squirrelflight who broke the sanctity and trust of their relationship as mates first. He asked her why didn't she tell him, because he obviously WOULD have helped protect the three, but she couldn't trust her own mate enough to do that which is not a good look. She USED him at the end of the day, as father fodder, and he has a right to be upset about that. He never abandoned his kits after the secret got out, it was obvious everyone involved was upset and unsure on how to handle the situation. And despite what happened he still defended Lionblaze, Jayfeather, and mourned Hollyleaf. Heck, even covering for her when she came back, because he still viewed her as his own despite not being blood related. However, how the three see him and Squirrelflight is up to them. He didn't force Alderheart to do anything, it's Leafpool and Jayfeather that wanted the change in the first place. And on top of that Bramblestar was supportive of Alderheart, even when he became a medicine cat instead. Literally when they're coming from a gathering, and Alderheart talks to him about one of his prophecies Bramblestar is noted to look at him with pride and respect. The Sisters were, as far as he was concerned, a troublemaking group of cats that were aggressive and attacking ClanCats. They literally kidnapped his mate/deputy, and held her hostage along with the SkyClan leader. And Tigerstar threatened that if these cats were being protected, then there would be issues. Squirrelflight brought them into ThunderClan without permission, and of her own decisions, something she does not have the authority to do. She is supposed to get the leader's approval first for things like that, but because she constantly thinks it's her way or the high way, of course she doesn't listen. Bramblestar had no reason to help outsiders that have threatened his clan, and have caused nothing but trouble. Bramblestar quite literally makes it clear several times that he had no intentions of attacking a pregnant she-cat, and was only sending his cats to show strength because the Sisters dug in their heels and threatened to fight them back despite their previous agreements. This has only been causing more issues with the rest of the lake, and the only clan that doesn't send cats is SkyClan. When they do arrive, it's Sunrise that attacks Harestar first, and the fighting explodes. Prior to that Squirrelflight was being called out for going behind Bramblestar's back again and being accused of being a traitor. They did stop the fighting, with minimal injuries, only for it to start up again while Bramble and Squirrel are talking and working things out, but Flurry ambushes him. Meanwhile Tigertwo is cornering Moonlight and her kits, endangering them, and the others hurry to go stop them. If anything it's Tigertwo's fault that led to Moonlight's death. And realistically, what would Squirrelflight have done in that position, if she was in Bramblestar's paws. Even when she went behind his back several times, to try and convince them to leave, they refused, and constantly started fights with the Clan cats. If she were a leader she'd be going up against two other clans that still very much wanted them gone, it would just be an all out brawl with grave injuries that wouldn't be limited like the ones that happened canonly. And Leafstar would still sit out the fight, regardless. No matter who is in the position of leader, tough decisions would have to be made, and the clan majority didn't like the sister nor wanted to help them. If you're referring to Bramble's lack of leadership in the current arc, he's literally a senile old man with dementia and PTSD. He's quite literally incapable of doing his leadership duties properly anymore, similarly to how Bluestar went downhill in her later moons of life. The difference here is that he still wants to try and be leader even if he's mentally declining. But Squirrelflight isn't exactly doing him any favors either when she's STILL going behind his back and making him look like a fool in front of other clans, much to his confusion. Imo Squirrelflight's character is much more volatile and causes more issues than it's worth, especially considering her antics have been going on for the last 17 years.
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Post by starlightstoryteller on Dec 17, 2022 23:09:48 GMT -5
i hate to say it but 'if he keeps getting written ooc' thats. just his character now. he's another victim of the erin's bad writing, because that is how he is characterized now.
deeply frustrating, tbh.
i LOVED bramblepaw! but then he goes back to train with his evil dad. he acts like squirrelflight is unreasonable for being suspicious of him when he KNOWS he is also hanging out with their evil dad. when she tries to reconcile and put the argument behind him he rejects this. he trains for MOONS behind her back, causes thunderclan to be attacked when he carelessly lets slip vulnerable information with no regard for clan loyalty to hawkfrost and BLAMES LEAFPOOL FOR IT, publically, accuses her of being disloyal, and then when he realizes 'wait it mustve been me' when the other medcats are ????? he doesn't apologize bc that'd implicate him in the df thing.
he jumps on squirrelflight for 'lying to him' and 'not trusting him' when To This Day he never told her about the dark forest, even though his tomfoolery with his evil dad and brother indirectly lead to her dad nearly dying. squirrelflight, at least, had good reason--starclan, including her dead friend feathertail, pressured her into this and told her not to tell bramblestar!
he abandons his kits after the secret comes out because 'theyre not his by blood'.
he forces his own son into the medicine den.
he nearly lets a cat bleed out mere feet away from the medicine den.
he attacks the camp of a pregnant queen rather than just waiting a couple moons.
he refuses to do his goddamn job and then gets pissy at squirrelflight when she has to do it for him.
listen, i'm not saying squirrelflight is innocent in their relationship, far from it. they're both highly flawed characters. but to say squirrelflight is 'just terrible' while bramblestar is 'always ooc' is disingenuous. No where in canon was Squirrelflight aware that Brambleclaw was in the Dark Forest hanging around Tigerstar. And even then, Brambleclaw wasn't in the Dark Forest for him, he was there for Hawkfrost, his half brother whom he wanted to know more about. What Squirrelflight WAS mad at Brambleclaw about was the fact that he wanted to spend time with Hawkfrost over her. She was suspicious of Hawkfrost, but she had no basis at all for her suspicions other than him being Tigerstar's kin. Which Brambleclaw at the time was personally hurt by because he himself was very much struggling with that, since he looked a lot like his father, something he thought Squirrelflight would understand. She was shown in the books to be pointed toward him just for wanting to give his brother the benefit of the doubt, and then storm off to be around Ashfur just to make him upset. Squirrelflight knowing he was in the Dark Forest with Hawkfrost and Tigerstar wouldn't have changed anything in the plot, if not make things worse between them. Not to mention Tigerstar even states he was trying to connect with Brambleclaw's dreams for moons, but was unable to. And when he finally did, Brambleclaw was still guarded and untrusting of him, but only stayed, again, for Hawkfrost. Also which event are you referring to specifically here? Hawkfrost's plan to kill Firestar had nothing to do with Brambleclaw's choices. He did it as a test, between him and Tigerstar, towards Brambleclaw, because they believed he wasn't completely loyal to them yet. And he was right, he wasn't. Which is why in the end Brambleclaw chose to save Firestar, and even kill his own kin because of it. His kin whom he genuinely cared about and wanted to connect with. Also it's strange to blame Brambleclaw for that when it's Ashfur that blatantly betrays his clan and helps Hawkfrost lead Firestar into that trap in the first place in an attempt to get back at Squirrelflight. Leafpool is the one that knew about Brambleclaw's involvement with the Dark Forest, and had WAY MORE of a reason to not trust him than Squirrelflight ever did. But she buried those doubts when she saw that Brambleclaw was the one that saved her father, and chose him and their clan in the end despite his father's manipulation. Squirrelflight's reasoning up to that point was petty. Where in the books does it say that Feathertail told Squirrelflight to not tell Brambleclaw about the kits? In fact the reason he was more upset at Squirrelflight was the mere fact that she didn't trust him after everything they went through. He fully dedicated himself to her, their relationship, and serving his clan after the events of TNP. It was supposed to be a new change in his life for the better, but it's Squirrelflight who broke the sanctity and trust of their relationship as mates first. He asked her why didn't she tell him, because he obviously WOULD have helped protect the three, but she couldn't trust her own mate enough to do that which is not a good look. She USED him at the end of the day, as father fodder, and he has a right to be upset about that. He never abandoned his kits after the secret got out, it was obvious everyone involved was upset and unsure on how to handle the situation. And despite what happened he still defended Lionblaze, Jayfeather, and mourned Hollyleaf. Heck, even covering for her when she came back, because he still viewed her as his own despite not being blood related. However, how the three see him and Squirrelflight is up to them. He didn't force Alderheart to do anything, it's Leafpool and Jayfeather that wanted the change in the first place. And on top of that Bramblestar was supportive of Alderheart, even when he became a medicine cat instead. Literally when they're coming from a gathering, and Alderheart talks to him about one of his prophecies Bramblestar is noted to look at him with pride and respect. The Sisters were, as far as he was concerned, a troublemaking group of cats that were aggressive and attacking ClanCats. They literally kidnapped his mate/deputy, and held her hostage along with the SkyClan leader. And Tigerstar threatened that if these cats were being protected, then there would be issues. Squirrelflight brought them into ThunderClan without permission, and of her own decisions, something she does not have the authority to do. She is supposed to get the leader's approval first for things like that, but because she constantly thinks it's her way or the high way, of course she doesn't listen. Bramblestar had no reason to help outsiders that have threatened his clan, and have caused nothing but trouble. Bramblestar quite literally makes it clear several times that he had no intentions of attacking a pregnant she-cat, and was only sending his cats to show strength because the Sisters dug in their heels and threatened to fight them back despite their previous agreements. This has only been causing more issues with the rest of the lake, and the only clan that doesn't send cats is SkyClan. When they do arrive, it's Sunrise that attacks Harestar first, and the fighting explodes. Prior to that Squirrelflight was being called out for going behind Bramblestar's back again and being accused of being a traitor. They did stop the fighting, with minimal injuries, only for it to start up again while Bramble and Squirrel are talking and working things out, but Flurry ambushes him. Meanwhile Tigertwo is cornering Moonlight and her kits, endangering them, and the others hurry to go stop them. If anything it's Tigertwo's fault that led to Moonlight's death. And realistically, what would Squirrelflight have done in that position, if she was in Bramblestar's paws. Even when she went behind his back several times, to try and convince them to leave, they refused, and constantly started fights with the Clan cats. If she were a leader she'd be going up against two other clans that still very much wanted them gone, it would just be an all out brawl with grave injuries that wouldn't be limited like the ones that happened canonly. And Leafstar would still sit out the fight, regardless. No matter who is in the position of leader, tough decisions would have to be made, and the clan majority didn't like the sister nor wanted to help them. If you're referring to Bramble's lack of leadership in the current arc, he's literally a senile old man with dementia and PTSD. He's quite literally incapable of doing his leadership duties properly anymore, similarly to how Bluestar went downhill in her later moons of life. The difference here is that he still wants to try and be leader even if he's mentally declining. But Squirrelflight isn't exactly doing him any favors either when she's STILL going behind his back and making him look like a fool in front of other clans, much to his confusion. Imo Squirrelflight's character is much more volatile and causes more issues than it's worth, especially considering her antics have been going on for the last 17 years. re: first point! i should clarify that by 'him' i meant hawkfrost, not brambleclaw! apologies. re: second point that is completely incorrect. squirrelflight's stated reasons: leafpaw doesn't trust him, and she[leafpaw] knows him better because she was in the forest while hawkfrost was deputy. she overheard him saying he wished mistyfoot never came back because he wanted to be deputy. (these happen later, after the initial argument, squirrel brings them up later:) he tried to grab the island as riverclan's camp. he met with mudclaw (this is corroborated by mistyfoot), plotted to kill onewhisker, and according to mudclaw wanted him to make him windclan's deputy and take over riverclan. her distrusting hawk because of his parentage makes zero sense because she has never expressed any such prejudices beforehand and is actively bffs/bordering on more with BRAMBLECLAW at this point. she also never, to my memory, weird about tawnypelt, who actively went to live with tigerstar when she was young. by that logic ('telling the truth about training in hell would've only caused trouble') she never should've told him about the three, either. re: causing thunderclan to be attacked and then blaming leafpool for it: these twitter threads contain screenshots of the scenes for you to read. idk how to break it to you but them doing it as a test makes it Even More His Fault. If he'd rejected them immediately like tawnypelt had, then it never would've been a question of his 'loyalty'. Firestar would've survived past the great battle if not for his foolishness. look, i sympathize with brambleclaw trying to connect with his kin. but ffs hawkfrost was not his only sibling! Why didn't he try to reach out to mothwing? hell, why didn't he just talk more to tawnypelt, his full sibling whom he was raised alongside and Went On A Journey With? Why is hawkfrost pushed as his Only Option?? (spoiler alert: its plot convenience. this happens to brambleclaw a lot, where he's dumbed down or made a complete idiot disregarding previous development entirely because the erins are lazy writers. poor guy :[) i generalized a bit in my previous statement, apologies (re: feathertail). In leafpool's wish, squirrel is pressured by by both her sister and starclan, including feathertail. Direct quote from Chapter Six of leafpool's wish: "Squirrelflight looked horrified. 'What? How could I do that? I'd have to lie to Firestar, to all my clanmates, to Brambleclaw!' The old medicine cat [Yellowfang] blinked. 'If a lie is what it takes to save these kits, so be it.'" [Notably, she refuses regardless, and continues to refuse until Feathertail talks to her. "'Feathertail was right,' Squirrelflight whispered. 'I do love these kits-and I want them to have the best life they can, whatever lies ahead of them.'" My point is that Brambleclaw has no right to accuse Squirrelflight of being deceitful considering he, too, lied to her for moons, didn't even have the excuse of being coerced by starclan, and to this day he has not told her that it was partially his fault her father died. He never receives permanent consequences for this. Squirrelflight didn't 'break their trust first'--they became mates while he was still training in hell. Squirrelflight, fundamentally, did not have the agency to make this choice. starclan manipulated her--first by saying she was barren (a lie, btw), then by using her dead friend. So does her sister. If it was up to Squirrelflight, if she didn't have to follow the wc equivalent of god, she would not have lied to brambleclaw. And furthermore, keep in mind this takes place a moon or two after Brambleclaw was continually harassing her and ashfur because she had the audacity to break up with him. the relationship was still deeply unstable. re: abandonment, alderheart: it's entirely possible you're right! the entirety of oots and avos were a blur for me, so I'll concede this one. re: sunrise. Brambleclaw viewing them that way does not mean he was objectively correct. The clans have zero right to thumb their noses at the sisters with their strange cult-like mentality and violent dehumanization (de...catization?) of outsiders--the clans pull aggressive nonsense at cats they deem to be 'rogues'. The Sisters had good reason to hold squirrel and leaf(star) hostage--they were concerned the clans would try to drive them out despite squirrel's promises of peace. and they were right in the end, weren't they? Also, the sisters are not entirely antagonistic, and even help save sparkpelt (his daughter!!)'s life by giving them the cure for the sickness that afflicts her and larksong. yet he goes to bully them out of their territory before they're ready anyways. but even if brambleclaw's views of them were correct, leaving sunset to die is beyond immoral, especially when they had the supplies to treat her. he tried to force leafpool to break the medicine cat code, for starclan's sake. and sure, tigerstar would've been pissy, but realistically if bramblestar was like "hey keep this on the DL everyone" how on earth would he ever find out???? re: squirrel taking the cats in without permission. There is no rule in the warrior code that says if you see someone bleeding out you need to waste precious time running to your leader to go all "mother may i" to keep them from dying. squirrelflight leaving sunset to die would've been deeply immoral. To go against your leader to protect innocent cats is not a bad thing and I'm tired of people saying that it is! Did you protest firestar sneaking behind bluestar's back to prevent a pointless war with windclan? because that is, fundamentally, the exact same situation squirrelflight was in in sph. the only difference was the relationships-mentor/apprentice rather than mates. But there isn't that big a difference between loving someone platonically and romantically. it is not inherently worse because the unreasonable leader was bramblestar rather than bluestar. re: sisters threatening to fight back: back being the operative word here. they said they'd fight back, if the clans attacked or intimidated them. the clans send a large patrol to try and threaten them. just because they aren't directly attacking doesn't mean this isn't shameful behavior--being forced out of your land and on the move for safety is dangerous for queen and kits. squirrel knows that if the clans try to threaten the sisters, they will, reasonably, fight back.the sisters only attacked after repeated antagonization. if darktail or sol or some other generic wc villain with a nameless horde of followers had showed up at thunderclan's camp where a queen had freshly kitted saying they needed to leave their territory with the implied threat of a bunch of warriors present, would you blame the clans for fighting back?? bramblestar didn't need to do anything, other than not send a patrol (or help moonlight, at least, to safety, but not participating in driving out a queen is the bare minimum). squirrelflight would not have done what bramblestar did in his paws because squirrelflight's moral compass would not permit it. that's not the kind of cat she is. she cares more about what she thinks is right than clan law, and that's been her character since the start. re: senile old man yeha, he is, but he still manipulates nightheart to create a situation to humiliate for needing to do his job with the windclan situation for him. sorry for typing a whole essay!
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Post by cygna on Dec 18, 2022 0:08:10 GMT -5
They both stink but Bramblestar is a much worse partner, if only in Squirrelflight's Hope.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Dec 18, 2022 1:19:48 GMT -5
No where in canon was Squirrelflight aware that Brambleclaw was in the Dark Forest hanging around Tigerstar. And even then, Brambleclaw wasn't in the Dark Forest for him, he was there for Hawkfrost, his half brother whom he wanted to know more about.
What Squirrelflight WAS mad at Brambleclaw about was the fact that he wanted to spend time with Hawkfrost over her. She was suspicious of Hawkfrost, but she had no basis at all for her suspicions other than him being Tigerstar's kin. Which Brambleclaw at the time was personally hurt by because he himself was very much struggling with that, since he looked a lot like his father, something he thought Squirrelflight would understand. She was shown in the books to be pointed toward him just for wanting to give his brother the benefit of the doubt, and then storm off to be around Ashfur just to make him upset.
Squirrelflight knowing he was in the Dark Forest with Hawkfrost and Tigerstar wouldn't have changed anything in the plot, if not make things worse between them. Not to mention Tigerstar even states he was trying to connect with Brambleclaw's dreams for moons, but was unable to. And when he finally did, Brambleclaw was still guarded and untrusting of him, but only stayed, again, for Hawkfrost.
Also which event are you referring to specifically here? Hawkfrost's plan to kill Firestar had nothing to do with Brambleclaw's choices. He did it as a test, between him and Tigerstar, towards Brambleclaw, because they believed he wasn't completely loyal to them yet. And he was right, he wasn't. Which is why in the end Brambleclaw chose to save Firestar, and even kill his own kin because of it. His kin whom he genuinely cared about and wanted to connect with. Also it's strange to blame Brambleclaw for that when it's Ashfur that blatantly betrays his clan and helps Hawkfrost lead Firestar into that trap in the first place in an attempt to get back at Squirrelflight.
Leafpool is the one that knew about Brambleclaw's involvement with the Dark Forest, and had WAY MORE of a reason to not trust him than Squirrelflight ever did. But she buried those doubts when she saw that Brambleclaw was the one that saved her father, and chose him and their clan in the end despite his father's manipulation. Squirrelflight's reasoning up to that point was petty.
Where in the books does it say that Feathertail told Squirrelflight to not tell Brambleclaw about the kits? In fact the reason he was more upset at Squirrelflight was the mere fact that she didn't trust him after everything they went through. He fully dedicated himself to her, their relationship, and serving his clan after the events of TNP. It was supposed to be a new change in his life for the better, but it's Squirrelflight who broke the sanctity and trust of their relationship as mates first.
He asked her why didn't she tell him, because he obviously WOULD have helped protect the three, but she couldn't trust her own mate enough to do that which is not a good look. She USED him at the end of the day, as father fodder, and he has a right to be upset about that.
He never abandoned his kits after the secret got out, it was obvious everyone involved was upset and unsure on how to handle the situation. And despite what happened he still defended Lionblaze, Jayfeather, and mourned Hollyleaf. Heck, even covering for her when she came back, because he still viewed her as his own despite not being blood related. However, how the three see him and Squirrelflight is up to them.
He didn't force Alderheart to do anything, it's Leafpool and Jayfeather that wanted the change in the first place. And on top of that Bramblestar was supportive of Alderheart, even when he became a medicine cat instead. Literally when they're coming from a gathering, and Alderheart talks to him about one of his prophecies Bramblestar is noted to look at him with pride and respect.
The Sisters were, as far as he was concerned, a troublemaking group of cats that were aggressive and attacking ClanCats. They literally kidnapped his mate/deputy, and held her hostage along with the SkyClan leader. And Tigerstar threatened that if these cats were being protected, then there would be issues. Squirrelflight brought them into ThunderClan without permission, and of her own decisions, something she does not have the authority to do. She is supposed to get the leader's approval first for things like that, but because she constantly thinks it's her way or the high way, of course she doesn't listen. Bramblestar had no reason to help outsiders that have threatened his clan, and have caused nothing but trouble.
Bramblestar quite literally makes it clear several times that he had no intentions of attacking a pregnant she-cat, and was only sending his cats to show strength because the Sisters dug in their heels and threatened to fight them back despite their previous agreements. This has only been causing more issues with the rest of the lake, and the only clan that doesn't send cats is SkyClan. When they do arrive, it's Sunrise that attacks Harestar first, and the fighting explodes. Prior to that Squirrelflight was being called out for going behind Bramblestar's back again and being accused of being a traitor. They did stop the fighting, with minimal injuries, only for it to start up again while Bramble and Squirrel are talking and working things out, but Flurry ambushes him. Meanwhile Tigertwo is cornering Moonlight and her kits, endangering them, and the others hurry to go stop them. If anything it's Tigertwo's fault that led to Moonlight's death.
And realistically, what would Squirrelflight have done in that position, if she was in Bramblestar's paws. Even when she went behind his back several times, to try and convince them to leave, they refused, and constantly started fights with the Clan cats. If she were a leader she'd be going up against two other clans that still very much wanted them gone, it would just be an all out brawl with grave injuries that wouldn't be limited like the ones that happened canonly. And Leafstar would still sit out the fight, regardless. No matter who is in the position of leader, tough decisions would have to be made, and the clan majority didn't like the sister nor wanted to help them.
If you're referring to Bramble's lack of leadership in the current arc, he's literally a senile old man with dementia and PTSD. He's quite literally incapable of doing his leadership duties properly anymore, similarly to how Bluestar went downhill in her later moons of life. The difference here is that he still wants to try and be leader even if he's mentally declining. But Squirrelflight isn't exactly doing him any favors either when she's STILL going behind his back and making him look like a fool in front of other clans, much to his confusion.
Imo Squirrelflight's character is much more volatile and causes more issues than it's worth, especially considering her antics have been going on for the last 17 years. re: first point! i should clarify that by 'him' i meant hawkfrost, not brambleclaw! apologies. re: second point that is completely incorrect. squirrelflight's stated reasons: leafpaw doesn't trust him, and she[leafpaw] knows him better because she was in the forest while hawkfrost was deputy. she overheard him saying he wished mistyfoot never came back because he wanted to be deputy. (these happen later, after the initial argument, squirrel brings them up later:) he tried to grab the island as riverclan's camp. he met with mudclaw (this is corroborated by mistyfoot), plotted to kill onewhisker, and according to mudclaw wanted him to make him windclan's deputy and take over riverclan. her distrusting hawk because of his parentage makes zero sense because she has never expressed any such prejudices beforehand and is actively bffs/bordering on more with BRAMBLECLAW at this point. she also never, to my memory, weird about tawnypelt, who actively went to live with tigerstar when she was young.
by that logic ('telling the truth about training in hell would've only caused trouble') she never should've told him about the three, either. re: causing thunderclan to be attacked and then blaming leafpool for it:
these twitter threads contain screenshots of the scenes for you to read.
idk how to break it to you but them doing it as a test makes it Even More His Fault. If he'd rejected them immediately like tawnypelt had, then it never would've been a question of his 'loyalty'. Firestar would've survived past the great battle if not for his foolishness.
look, i sympathize with brambleclaw trying to connect with his kin. but ffs hawkfrost was not his only sibling! Why didn't he try to reach out to mothwing? hell, why didn't he just talk more to tawnypelt, his full sibling whom he was raised alongside and Went On A Journey With? Why is hawkfrost pushed as his Only Option?? (spoiler alert: its plot convenience. this happens to brambleclaw a lot, where he's dumbed down or made a complete idiot disregarding previous development entirely because the erins are lazy writers. poor guy :[)
i generalized a bit in my previous statement, apologies (re: feathertail). In leafpool's wish, squirrel is pressured by by both her sister and starclan, including feathertail. Direct quote from Chapter Six of leafpool's wish: "Squirrelflight looked horrified. 'What? How could I do that? I'd have to lie to Firestar, to all my clanmates, to Brambleclaw!' The old medicine cat [Yellowfang] blinked. 'If a lie is what it takes to save these kits, so be it.'" [Notably, she refuses regardless, and continues to refuse until Feathertail talks to her. "'Feathertail was right,' Squirrelflight whispered. 'I do love these kits-and I want them to have the best life they can, whatever lies ahead of them.'"
My point is that Brambleclaw has no right to accuse Squirrelflight of being deceitful considering he, too, lied to her for moons, didn't even have the excuse of being coerced by starclan, and to this day he has not told her that it was partially his fault her father died. He never receives permanent consequences for this. Squirrelflight didn't 'break their trust first'--they became mates while he was still training in hell. Squirrelflight, fundamentally, did not have the agency to make this choice. starclan manipulated her--first by saying she was barren (a lie, btw), then by using her dead friend. So does her sister. If it was up to Squirrelflight, if she didn't have to follow the wc equivalent of god, she would not have lied to brambleclaw. And furthermore, keep in mind this takes place a moon or two after Brambleclaw was continually harassing her and ashfur because she had the audacity to break up with him. the relationship was still deeply unstable.
re: abandonment, alderheart: it's entirely possible you're right! the entirety of oots and avos were a blur for me, so I'll concede this one.
re: sunrise. Brambleclaw viewing them that way does not mean he was objectively correct. The clans have zero right to thumb their noses at the sisters with their strange cult-like mentality and violent dehumanization (de...catization?) of outsiders--the clans pull aggressive nonsense at cats they deem to be 'rogues'. The Sisters had good reason to hold squirrel and leaf(star) hostage--they were concerned the clans would try to drive them out despite squirrel's promises of peace. and they were right in the end, weren't they?
Also, the sisters are not entirely antagonistic, and even help save sparkpelt (his daughter!!)'s life by giving them the cure for the sickness that afflicts her and larksong. yet he goes to bully them out of their territory before they're ready anyways. but even if brambleclaw's views of them were correct, leaving sunset to die is beyond immoral, especially when they had the supplies to treat her. he tried to force leafpool to break the medicine cat code, for starclan's sake. and sure, tigerstar would've been pissy, but realistically if bramblestar was like "hey keep this on the DL everyone" how on earth would he ever find out???? re: squirrel taking the cats in without permission. There is no rule in the warrior code that says if you see someone bleeding out you need to waste precious time running to your leader to go all "mother may i" to keep them from dying. squirrelflight leaving sunset to die would've been deeply immoral. To go against your leader to protect innocent cats is not a bad thing and I'm tired of people saying that it is! Did you protest firestar sneaking behind bluestar's back to prevent a pointless war with windclan? because that is, fundamentally, the exact same situation squirrelflight was in in sph. the only difference was the relationships-mentor/apprentice rather than mates. But there isn't that big a difference between loving someone platonically and romantically. it is not inherently worse because the unreasonable leader was bramblestar rather than bluestar.
re: sisters threatening to fight back: back being the operative word here. they said they'd fight back, if the clans attacked or intimidated them. the clans send a large patrol to try and threaten them. just because they aren't directly attacking doesn't mean this isn't shameful behavior--being forced out of your land and on the move for safety is dangerous for queen and kits. squirrel knows that if the clans try to threaten the sisters, they will, reasonably, fight back.the sisters only attacked after repeated antagonization. if darktail or sol or some other generic wc villain with a nameless horde of followers had showed up at thunderclan's camp where a queen had freshly kitted saying they needed to leave their territory with the implied threat of a bunch of warriors present, would you blame the clans for fighting back??
bramblestar didn't need to do anything, other than not send a patrol (or help moonlight, at least, to safety, but not participating in driving out a queen is the bare minimum). squirrelflight would not have done what bramblestar did in his paws because squirrelflight's moral compass would not permit it. that's not the kind of cat she is. she cares more about what she thinks is right than clan law, and that's been her character since the start.
re: senile old man yeha, he is, but he still manipulates nightheart to create a situation to humiliate for needing to do his job with the windclan situation for him.
sorry for typing a whole essay! The incident with Brambleclaw and Leafpool, what's the point of that exactly? It's literally Brambleclaw acknowledging his flaws for trusting his own brother, and giving him the benefit of the doubt over Leafpool. Him thinking Leafpool was the reason for the attack isn't farfetched, she DID tell Littlecloud how Cinderpelt died. But either way Firestar agreed that it was Blackstar's choice in the end for thinking he could take advantage of that. However, Brambleclaw didn't expect for his own blood to tell ANOTHER clan something like that so casually, especially not ShadowClan. So yes, that is on Brambleclaw, but I don't see how he's in the wrong for thinking that of Leafpool at first. Especially when Leafpool was thinking so little of him in return merely because she thought he was going to betray his clan, so it's quite ironic. She even thinks he actually does this when she and Squirrelflight believe Ashfur's words, and run off to find Firestar. Same thing applies for the situation over Mudclaw, who by their logic was a traitor, and Hawkfrost did save his own skin by throwing Mudclaw under the bus. Hawkfrost claiming he genuinely thought Mudclaw was the right leader and believed what he was doing was for the good of the clans but then apologized for falling for it (where as we as the readers know that isn't true). Brambleclaw chooses to believe his brother, protesting to defend him, even against Tawnypelt (which is ironic cause she also abandoned him in ThunderClan moons ago). I don't see anything wrong with Brambleclaw clinging to his newly found kin in some way he could, even if it was in a worse light later on. I think people seem to forget that even if he was cautious of Tigerstar, he still wanted to try and reach out to his own brother, because he felt that he understood what it was like living with the weight of his father's terrible legacy. Even if you claim it doesn't make sense for Squirrelflight to be suspicious of Hawkfrost, literally she still had NO basis for her reasons prior to the Mudclaw rebellion. And was especially aggressive over those times against Brambleclaw. And when he did argue with her and bring up him being Tiger kin she stopped avoided or denied his claim. We as the reader, again, know that that's probably not Squirrelflight's intention, but she does do and say this to take unnecessary jabs at Brambleclaw, even in front of Leafpool. It was also one of the main focuses of Brambleclaw's character and his struggles while he was being developed in that arc, to deny it's a theme is nonsensical imo. It's weird that you're blaming Brambleclaw for Firestar dying in the final battle, when Hawkfrost was going to try and kill him regardless of Brambleclaw's involvement. Ashfur helped him, and he did what he did to get back at Squirrelflight, even if you take Brambleclaw out of this scenario, Hawkfrost would still try and kill Firestar for Tigerstar. He just didn't finish him off and left him for Brambleclaw as the test. Also, again, even Hawkfrost wasn't with Tigerstar from the start, he molded into what his father wanted him, while Bramblestar was more cautious and only there for him. Tawnypelt abandoned him when they were still young and left him to face his clan's judgement on his own. While Mothwing was a medicine cat, she chose that path, and the possibility that they would have crossed their paths as often as he would with Hawkfrost is incredibly slim regardless of plot convenience. In the passages of the novella, Squirrelflight was still adamant on not going through with the lie and the kits. It's not until she personal meets them after they were kitted does she change her mind. Before that she wasn't going to do it regardless of what StarClan said. Squirrelflight's reasoning was for Leafpool, and Leafpool alone, not because of StarClan, let alone the prophecy. And when she says Feathertail was right, she was referring to her loving the kits, which is true. Never recieved permanent consequences?? He Brambleclaw was constantly judged for his father's legacy, and literally had to kill his own brother, whom he genuinely did care about despite the path he chose in the end. He lost the only kin he desperately wanted to reach out and connect with in the hardest times of his life?? Not to mention he had to still deal with the shadow of his father and now his brother over his shoulders until the Last Hope, so for moons. He didn't walk out of that situation at all unscathed. Heck, even RiverClan and the other clans were suspicious of him and ThunderClan of possibly murdering Hawkfrost unjustly, despite them making it clear he was a traitor. Yet another cat in his bloodline deemed as one. My point over the kits is that NOTHING is stopping Squirrelflight from telling him the truth. She used him as father fodder. When did Brambleclaw ever use Squirrelflight in the way she used him? She lied to him about his own children for years. And even when faced with the truth at the gathering she still wouldn't say the truth, neither her or Leafpool, so Hollyleaf had to continue to tell everyone after calling them cowards. And when he does ask her why, she can't even give him a proper answer. He has the right to be angry that his mate, whom he trusted, broke the sanctity of their relationship, and used him. StarClan said nothing about her having to lie to her own mate, especially a mate that would have helped her. And when was Brambleclaw harassing Squirrelflight while she was with Ashfur?? She literally, again, kept taking jabs at him, because she hated him being around Hawkfrost, and then ran off to Ashfur as escapism, using him as well??? The clan have been following their rules for moons, if you have an issue with the code, then it's the code, not the cats following it. That's more of a writing thing if anything. And even then, it was Tigertwo that started all the trouble in the books in the first place, antagonizing neighboring borders, and threatening other clans. The sister are also not exactly saints either, they're aggressive misandrist that also abandoned their children at a young age in the middle of the night. While treating them like trash if they ever show back up again, regardless of their kin, there's a reason why Tree holds contempt towards them. At the end of the day, they held Bramble's mate/deputy hostage, and also injured and held a SkyClan leader hostage, he has no reason to trust them. Even if you see it as immoral, he was in the position of leader, and his decision of helping her was now something he got saddled with because his deputy, again, went behind his back and made decisions that she wasn't supposed to be making. In other cases when a cat is brought to camp, the cats either make them wait at a border, especially outsiders. If they're brought into a camp, it's a much different situation. And this is after the Sisters are seen as aggressive trespassers, why on earth should they want to help them and risk getting involved with their enemies and staring clan fights? Also the comparison makes no sense. The clans have established themselves in their homes for ages at this point, while the Sisters are quite literally known for not staying in the same spot long. They're rogues, cats outside of the code, why should they care about them? Seriously? Because if I were in the position of leadership and had to choose with chasing our rogues or fighting other trained warrior clan cats, I'm going to choose to chase out the rogues. It's quite literally the situation of a leader choosing his clan over others. Alright, logically, what if Bramblestar didn't send a patrol. Squirrelflight and Leafpool would STILL sneak out and still help the sisters. The sisters would still be stubborn and won't leave, WindClan and ShadowClan would still show up and a fight would still break out. Squirrelflight would still be accused as a traitor, and Tigertwo would still corner Moonlight and still get her kill, if not worse. WindClan and ShadowClan would have not held back and made the situation much worse, if not for ThunderClan being there. And then lol and behold Squirrel and Leaf BOTH possibly die too, or just Leaf, and how does that go down for Bramblestar when he finds out? Sometimes people need to make choices better with their mind over their heart. Just because you think doing something is morally good, still doesn't make it a good decision and could easily make the situation worse. Again, senile, old man, with PTSD, and dementia. Do you genuinely think he's really thinking properly and making proper choices right now under his declining condition?
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Post by starlightstoryteller on Dec 18, 2022 10:56:20 GMT -5
re: first point! i should clarify that by 'him' i meant hawkfrost, not brambleclaw! apologies. re: second point that is completely incorrect. squirrelflight's stated reasons: leafpaw doesn't trust him, and she[leafpaw] knows him better because she was in the forest while hawkfrost was deputy. she overheard him saying he wished mistyfoot never came back because he wanted to be deputy. (these happen later, after the initial argument, squirrel brings them up later:) he tried to grab the island as riverclan's camp. he met with mudclaw (this is corroborated by mistyfoot), plotted to kill onewhisker, and according to mudclaw wanted him to make him windclan's deputy and take over riverclan. her distrusting hawk because of his parentage makes zero sense because she has never expressed any such prejudices beforehand and is actively bffs/bordering on more with BRAMBLECLAW at this point. she also never, to my memory, weird about tawnypelt, who actively went to live with tigerstar when she was young.
by that logic ('telling the truth about training in hell would've only caused trouble') she never should've told him about the three, either. re: causing thunderclan to be attacked and then blaming leafpool for it:
these twitter threads contain screenshots of the scenes for you to read.
idk how to break it to you but them doing it as a test makes it Even More His Fault. If he'd rejected them immediately like tawnypelt had, then it never would've been a question of his 'loyalty'. Firestar would've survived past the great battle if not for his foolishness.
look, i sympathize with brambleclaw trying to connect with his kin. but ffs hawkfrost was not his only sibling! Why didn't he try to reach out to mothwing? hell, why didn't he just talk more to tawnypelt, his full sibling whom he was raised alongside and Went On A Journey With? Why is hawkfrost pushed as his Only Option?? (spoiler alert: its plot convenience. this happens to brambleclaw a lot, where he's dumbed down or made a complete idiot disregarding previous development entirely because the erins are lazy writers. poor guy :[)
i generalized a bit in my previous statement, apologies (re: feathertail). In leafpool's wish, squirrel is pressured by by both her sister and starclan, including feathertail. Direct quote from Chapter Six of leafpool's wish: "Squirrelflight looked horrified. 'What? How could I do that? I'd have to lie to Firestar, to all my clanmates, to Brambleclaw!' The old medicine cat [Yellowfang] blinked. 'If a lie is what it takes to save these kits, so be it.'" [Notably, she refuses regardless, and continues to refuse until Feathertail talks to her. "'Feathertail was right,' Squirrelflight whispered. 'I do love these kits-and I want them to have the best life they can, whatever lies ahead of them.'"
My point is that Brambleclaw has no right to accuse Squirrelflight of being deceitful considering he, too, lied to her for moons, didn't even have the excuse of being coerced by starclan, and to this day he has not told her that it was partially his fault her father died. He never receives permanent consequences for this. Squirrelflight didn't 'break their trust first'--they became mates while he was still training in hell. Squirrelflight, fundamentally, did not have the agency to make this choice. starclan manipulated her--first by saying she was barren (a lie, btw), then by using her dead friend. So does her sister. If it was up to Squirrelflight, if she didn't have to follow the wc equivalent of god, she would not have lied to brambleclaw. And furthermore, keep in mind this takes place a moon or two after Brambleclaw was continually harassing her and ashfur because she had the audacity to break up with him. the relationship was still deeply unstable.
re: abandonment, alderheart: it's entirely possible you're right! the entirety of oots and avos were a blur for me, so I'll concede this one.
re: sunrise. Brambleclaw viewing them that way does not mean he was objectively correct. The clans have zero right to thumb their noses at the sisters with their strange cult-like mentality and violent dehumanization (de...catization?) of outsiders--the clans pull aggressive nonsense at cats they deem to be 'rogues'. The Sisters had good reason to hold squirrel and leaf(star) hostage--they were concerned the clans would try to drive them out despite squirrel's promises of peace. and they were right in the end, weren't they?
Also, the sisters are not entirely antagonistic, and even help save sparkpelt (his daughter!!)'s life by giving them the cure for the sickness that afflicts her and larksong. yet he goes to bully them out of their territory before they're ready anyways. but even if brambleclaw's views of them were correct, leaving sunset to die is beyond immoral, especially when they had the supplies to treat her. he tried to force leafpool to break the medicine cat code, for starclan's sake. and sure, tigerstar would've been pissy, but realistically if bramblestar was like "hey keep this on the DL everyone" how on earth would he ever find out???? re: squirrel taking the cats in without permission. There is no rule in the warrior code that says if you see someone bleeding out you need to waste precious time running to your leader to go all "mother may i" to keep them from dying. squirrelflight leaving sunset to die would've been deeply immoral. To go against your leader to protect innocent cats is not a bad thing and I'm tired of people saying that it is! Did you protest firestar sneaking behind bluestar's back to prevent a pointless war with windclan? because that is, fundamentally, the exact same situation squirrelflight was in in sph. the only difference was the relationships-mentor/apprentice rather than mates. But there isn't that big a difference between loving someone platonically and romantically. it is not inherently worse because the unreasonable leader was bramblestar rather than bluestar.
re: sisters threatening to fight back: back being the operative word here. they said they'd fight back, if the clans attacked or intimidated them. the clans send a large patrol to try and threaten them. just because they aren't directly attacking doesn't mean this isn't shameful behavior--being forced out of your land and on the move for safety is dangerous for queen and kits. squirrel knows that if the clans try to threaten the sisters, they will, reasonably, fight back.the sisters only attacked after repeated antagonization. if darktail or sol or some other generic wc villain with a nameless horde of followers had showed up at thunderclan's camp where a queen had freshly kitted saying they needed to leave their territory with the implied threat of a bunch of warriors present, would you blame the clans for fighting back??
bramblestar didn't need to do anything, other than not send a patrol (or help moonlight, at least, to safety, but not participating in driving out a queen is the bare minimum). squirrelflight would not have done what bramblestar did in his paws because squirrelflight's moral compass would not permit it. that's not the kind of cat she is. she cares more about what she thinks is right than clan law, and that's been her character since the start.
re: senile old man yeha, he is, but he still manipulates nightheart to create a situation to humiliate for needing to do his job with the windclan situation for him.
sorry for typing a whole essay! The incident with Brambleclaw and Leafpool, what's the point of that exactly? It's literally Brambleclaw acknowledging his flaws for trusting his own brother, and giving him the benefit of the doubt over Leafpool. Him thinking Leafpool was the reason for the attack isn't farfetched, she DID tell Littlecloud how Cinderpelt died. But either way Firestar agreed that it was Blackstar's choice in the end for thinking he could take advantage of that. However, Brambleclaw didn't expect for his own blood to tell ANOTHER clan something like that so casually, especially not ShadowClan. So yes, that is on Brambleclaw, but I don't see how he's in the wrong for thinking that of Leafpool at first. Especially when Leafpool was thinking so little of him in return merely because she thought he was going to betray his clan, so it's quite ironic. She even thinks he actually does this when she and Squirrelflight believe Ashfur's words, and run off to find Firestar. Same thing applies for the situation over Mudclaw, who by their logic was a traitor, and Hawkfrost did save his own skin by throwing Mudclaw under the bus. Hawkfrost claiming he genuinely thought Mudclaw was the right leader and believed what he was doing was for the good of the clans but then apologized for falling for it (where as we as the readers know that isn't true). Brambleclaw chooses to believe his brother, protesting to defend him, even against Tawnypelt (which is ironic cause she also abandoned him in ThunderClan moons ago). I don't see anything wrong with Brambleclaw clinging to his newly found kin in some way he could, even if it was in a worse light later on. I think people seem to forget that even if he was cautious of Tigerstar, he still wanted to try and reach out to his own brother, because he felt that he understood what it was like living with the weight of his father's terrible legacy. Even if you claim it doesn't make sense for Squirrelflight to be suspicious of Hawkfrost, literally she still had NO basis for her reasons prior to the Mudclaw rebellion. And was especially aggressive over those times against Brambleclaw. And when he did argue with her and bring up him being Tiger kin she stopped avoided or denied his claim. We as the reader, again, know that that's probably not Squirrelflight's intention, but she does do and say this to take unnecessary jabs at Brambleclaw, even in front of Leafpool. It was also one of the main focuses of Brambleclaw's character and his struggles while he was being developed in that arc, to deny it's a theme is nonsensical imo. It's weird that you're blaming Brambleclaw for Firestar dying in the final battle, when Hawkfrost was going to try and kill him regardless of Brambleclaw's involvement. Ashfur helped him, and he did what he did to get back at Squirrelflight, even if you take Brambleclaw out of this scenario, Hawkfrost would still try and kill Firestar for Tigerstar. He just didn't finish him off and left him for Brambleclaw as the test. Also, again, even Hawkfrost wasn't with Tigerstar from the start, he molded into what his father wanted him, while Bramblestar was more cautious and only there for him. Tawnypelt abandoned him when they were still young and left him to face his clan's judgement on his own. While Mothwing was a medicine cat, she chose that path, and the possibility that they would have crossed their paths as often as he would with Hawkfrost is incredibly slim regardless of plot convenience. In the passages of the novella, Squirrelflight was still adamant on not going through with the lie and the kits. It's not until she personal meets them after they were kitted does she change her mind. Before that she wasn't going to do it regardless of what StarClan said. Squirrelflight's reasoning was for Leafpool, and Leafpool alone, not because of StarClan, let alone the prophecy. And when she says Feathertail was right, she was referring to her loving the kits, which is true. Never recieved permanent consequences?? He Brambleclaw was constantly judged for his father's legacy, and literally had to kill his own brother, whom he genuinely did care about despite the path he chose in the end. He lost the only kin he desperately wanted to reach out and connect with in the hardest times of his life?? Not to mention he had to still deal with the shadow of his father and now his brother over his shoulders until the Last Hope, so for moons. He didn't walk out of that situation at all unscathed. Heck, even RiverClan and the other clans were suspicious of him and ThunderClan of possibly murdering Hawkfrost unjustly, despite them making it clear he was a traitor. Yet another cat in his bloodline deemed as one. My point over the kits is that NOTHING is stopping Squirrelflight from telling him the truth. She used him as father fodder. When did Brambleclaw ever use Squirrelflight in the way she used him? She lied to him about his own children for years. And even when faced with the truth at the gathering she still wouldn't say the truth, neither her or Leafpool, so Hollyleaf had to continue to tell everyone after calling them cowards. And when he does ask her why, she can't even give him a proper answer. He has the right to be angry that his mate, whom he trusted, broke the sanctity of their relationship, and used him. StarClan said nothing about her having to lie to her own mate, especially a mate that would have helped her. And when was Brambleclaw harassing Squirrelflight while she was with Ashfur?? She literally, again, kept taking jabs at him, because she hated him being around Hawkfrost, and then ran off to Ashfur as escapism, using him as well??? The clan have been following their rules for moons, if you have an issue with the code, then it's the code, not the cats following it. That's more of a writing thing if anything. And even then, it was Tigertwo that started all the trouble in the books in the first place, antagonizing neighboring borders, and threatening other clans. The sister are also not exactly saints either, they're aggressive misandrist that also abandoned their children at a young age in the middle of the night. While treating them like trash if they ever show back up again, regardless of their kin, there's a reason why Tree holds contempt towards them. At the end of the day, they held Bramble's mate/deputy hostage, and also injured and held a SkyClan leader hostage, he has no reason to trust them. Even if you see it as immoral, he was in the position of leader, and his decision of helping her was now something he got saddled with because his deputy, again, went behind his back and made decisions that she wasn't supposed to be making. In other cases when a cat is brought to camp, the cats either make them wait at a border, especially outsiders. If they're brought into a camp, it's a much different situation. And this is after the Sisters are seen as aggressive trespassers, why on earth should they want to help them and risk getting involved with their enemies and staring clan fights? Also the comparison makes no sense. The clans have established themselves in their homes for ages at this point, while the Sisters are quite literally known for not staying in the same spot long. They're rogues, cats outside of the code, why should they care about them? Seriously? Because if I were in the position of leadership and had to choose with chasing our rogues or fighting other trained warrior clan cats, I'm going to choose to chase out the rogues. It's quite literally the situation of a leader choosing his clan over others. Alright, logically, what if Bramblestar didn't send a patrol. Squirrelflight and Leafpool would STILL sneak out and still help the sisters. The sisters would still be stubborn and won't leave, WindClan and ShadowClan would still show up and a fight would still break out. Squirrelflight would still be accused as a traitor, and Tigertwo would still corner Moonlight and still get her kill, if not worse. WindClan and ShadowClan would have not held back and made the situation much worse, if not for ThunderClan being there. And then lol and behold Squirrel and Leaf BOTH possibly die too, or just Leaf, and how does that go down for Bramblestar when he finds out? Sometimes people need to make choices better with their mind over their heart. Just because you think doing something is morally good, still doesn't make it a good decision and could easily make the situation worse. Again, senile, old man, with PTSD, and dementia. Do you genuinely think he's really thinking properly and making proper choices right now under his declining condition? honest to god, I don't think I am going to get anywhere with this, but i love exercises in futility, so the point of the leafpool thing is that it's beyond cruel to accuse someone of being disloyal for telling their friends that their mentor died, especially when barkface already knew. furthermore, he has no right to accuse anyone of being disloyal when he's consorting with a riverclan cat and a shadowclan cat, which [from the pov of the clans, not mine] is clearly worse than accidentally letting something slip with friends after your mentor dies. My point with the leafpool thing is that even before the later arcs, he is kind of a douchebag. My problem with your responses is that you use warrior's flawed morality to judge her , but excuse brambleclaw's even more heinous violations by looking at his behavior from a human perspective [being lonely so he takes up with his kin that are from different clans and he has ample reason to be suspicious of, number one being that hawkfrost was Training With His Evil Dad In Hell.] You make excuses for brambleclaw's traitorous behavior ['he was cautious, he was only there for his brother' but it becomes amply clear as time goes on that hawkfrost has harmful ambitions and tigerstar just because brambleclaw ignores the advice of everyone he's close to on the matter of hawkfrost doesn't mean he's not complicit.]
my second problem with these responses is that you are ignoring the evidence i have provided or dismissing it. you say squirrelflight had no reason to mistrust hawkfrost until the onestar thing [ignoring that the onestar thing is a pretty huge red flag right there. like even brambleclaw acknowledges that there was no good reason for him to be meeting with mudclaw in a war that had jackshit to do with him.] You say it's a big theme of the arc that mistrust of him due to his heritage is a thing, and i agree--but the point is that most of his insecurities are all in his head, because he's a young warrior still developing in a hostile world. squirrelflight says to him she is not doing this because hawkfrost is tigerkin (and again, it should be obvious considering she was bffs with brambleclaw and friendlh with tawnypelt! he is unfairly projecting onto her!) and brambleclaw's narration insists that she is.
you say squirrel's lie had nothing to do with starclan but i provided a direct quote, with chapter citations, saying that yellowfang told her to lie to everyone--yes, including brambleclaw. StarClan was the only reason she decided to do it, in the end. She was heavily pressured by their society's gods, and might've been fearing punishment for noncompliance she kept secret from Leafpool because Leaf was a medicine cat.
It's also funny because before you insisted hawk tried to kill fire as a 'test' but when i pointed out that meant it was still bramble's fault for meeting with him rather than rejecting him you changed your tune.
By 'never received permanent consequences' I mean he didn't get the shame and ostracization that squirrel and leaf got, what he rightfully deserved. Nobody ever discovers the true extent of his disloyalty save Leafpool, and the other clans never mention it again by PO3. Meanwhile you still have BREEZEPELT, of all people, calling squirrel disloyal as late as sqh. He is never challenged for this, and bramblestar only has a generic 'that was moons ago' to offer rather than 'you continued to train in hell despite knowing they wanted to kill everyone who the heck are you to call anyone disloyal', because the narrative continually being pushed is that this was some nigh-unforgivable sin.
You say she 'used him as father fodder' but genuinely, what the heck does that even mean??? In warriors society, having a father is genuinely not necessary for a kit's development considering their children are raised communally, and daisy and ferncloud were there for additional parenting if squirrel got tired. in the first books fathers didn't really raise kits, and this had zero effect on the queen's workloads. Squirrelflight didn't 'use him', she just lied to him. You try to draw arbitrary distinctions between squirrel's lies and bramble's, but they're both lies.
squirrelflight couldn't defend herself properly, because she was panicked and under stress.
re: brambleclaw harassing her and ashfur, as well as a source for brambleclaw acknowledging his brother's behavior is suspicious as heck: imgur.com/a/AfI5rhV . the images are from Bramblestar is Worse, a video i don't agree with on all its points (it's definitely pretty harsh on him, although moon does have legitimate grievances imo), but is convenient for source purposes due to its copious amounts of quotes. re: everything about the sqh situation. you are again judging him from a warriors morality standpoint, and my point with her disobeying him is that they fundamentally didn't have the time. sunset would've died. The sisters are not lesser because they are rogues, and some clan cats are able to recognize this. Just because bramblestar judges cats by the circumstances of their birth (oh the irony) doesn't mean squirrelflight is disloyal for not doing that. Saying 'they're rogues why should they care' is buying into the clan's violently xenophobic culture without critically examining the biases you may have picked up. It is a bad thing that the clans do not care for the wellbeing of any cat born outside the clans. And my point was they didn't need to fight other clan cats to help sunrise because there is no way they'd find out if bramblestar simply ordered his clan and the sisters to not say anything. And saying 'well they won't stay there long' is. a moot point. They're there now so that Moonlight can have a safe place to kit, and this in fact makes the patrols worse because they couldn't wait one moon. You have no evidence that thunderclan not being there made things worse. And furthermore, if Bramblestar had simply said "I know this is messed up but I'm going to try and broker peace" don't you think squirrelflight would've understood? She went behind his back because she had a premonition of innocent kits being in danger. also re: the sisters not being perfect. of course they aren't. no society is. but the clans' sins are far heavier than the sisters, what with how they literally got their start driving out/murdering or converting all the cats who already lived in the forest, they continually start wars over borders instead of sharing territory, they demonize all outsiders. The Sisters do the 'abandoning children' thing because it's in their religion, and the clans have done many terrible things in service of StarClan's omens. Not to mention the fact that the clans are incest-heavy messes precisely because they do not do what the Sisters do--real-life cats chase off their male young to prevent inbreeding. The Sisters treat their prisoners far better than the clans, and ultimately they only took them hostage to prevent an invading force driving out a pregnant cat. Furthermore, if not for the sisters sparkpelt would've died. You'd think Bramblestar would be a little thankful.
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Post by starlightstoryteller on Dec 18, 2022 13:51:32 GMT -5
re: first point! i should clarify that by 'him' i meant hawkfrost, not brambleclaw! apologies. re: second point that is completely incorrect. squirrelflight's stated reasons: leafpaw doesn't trust him, and she[leafpaw] knows him better because she was in the forest while hawkfrost was deputy. she overheard him saying he wished mistyfoot never came back because he wanted to be deputy. (these happen later, after the initial argument, squirrel brings them up later:) he tried to grab the island as riverclan's camp. he met with mudclaw (this is corroborated by mistyfoot), plotted to kill onewhisker, and according to mudclaw wanted him to make him windclan's deputy and take over riverclan. her distrusting hawk because of his parentage makes zero sense because she has never expressed any such prejudices beforehand and is actively bffs/bordering on more with BRAMBLECLAW at this point. she also never, to my memory, weird about tawnypelt, who actively went to live with tigerstar when she was young.
by that logic ('telling the truth about training in hell would've only caused trouble') she never should've told him about the three, either. re: causing thunderclan to be attacked and then blaming leafpool for it:
these twitter threads contain screenshots of the scenes for you to read.
idk how to break it to you but them doing it as a test makes it Even More His Fault. If he'd rejected them immediately like tawnypelt had, then it never would've been a question of his 'loyalty'. Firestar would've survived past the great battle if not for his foolishness.
look, i sympathize with brambleclaw trying to connect with his kin. but ffs hawkfrost was not his only sibling! Why didn't he try to reach out to mothwing? hell, why didn't he just talk more to tawnypelt, his full sibling whom he was raised alongside and Went On A Journey With? Why is hawkfrost pushed as his Only Option?? (spoiler alert: its plot convenience. this happens to brambleclaw a lot, where he's dumbed down or made a complete idiot disregarding previous development entirely because the erins are lazy writers. poor guy :[)
i generalized a bit in my previous statement, apologies (re: feathertail). In leafpool's wish, squirrel is pressured by by both her sister and starclan, including feathertail. Direct quote from Chapter Six of leafpool's wish: "Squirrelflight looked horrified. 'What? How could I do that? I'd have to lie to Firestar, to all my clanmates, to Brambleclaw!' The old medicine cat [Yellowfang] blinked. 'If a lie is what it takes to save these kits, so be it.'" [Notably, she refuses regardless, and continues to refuse until Feathertail talks to her. "'Feathertail was right,' Squirrelflight whispered. 'I do love these kits-and I want them to have the best life they can, whatever lies ahead of them.'"
My point is that Brambleclaw has no right to accuse Squirrelflight of being deceitful considering he, too, lied to her for moons, didn't even have the excuse of being coerced by starclan, and to this day he has not told her that it was partially his fault her father died. He never receives permanent consequences for this. Squirrelflight didn't 'break their trust first'--they became mates while he was still training in hell. Squirrelflight, fundamentally, did not have the agency to make this choice. starclan manipulated her--first by saying she was barren (a lie, btw), then by using her dead friend. So does her sister. If it was up to Squirrelflight, if she didn't have to follow the wc equivalent of god, she would not have lied to brambleclaw. And furthermore, keep in mind this takes place a moon or two after Brambleclaw was continually harassing her and ashfur because she had the audacity to break up with him. the relationship was still deeply unstable.
re: abandonment, alderheart: it's entirely possible you're right! the entirety of oots and avos were a blur for me, so I'll concede this one.
re: sunrise. Brambleclaw viewing them that way does not mean he was objectively correct. The clans have zero right to thumb their noses at the sisters with their strange cult-like mentality and violent dehumanization (de...catization?) of outsiders--the clans pull aggressive nonsense at cats they deem to be 'rogues'. The Sisters had good reason to hold squirrel and leaf(star) hostage--they were concerned the clans would try to drive them out despite squirrel's promises of peace. and they were right in the end, weren't they?
Also, the sisters are not entirely antagonistic, and even help save sparkpelt (his daughter!!)'s life by giving them the cure for the sickness that afflicts her and larksong. yet he goes to bully them out of their territory before they're ready anyways. but even if brambleclaw's views of them were correct, leaving sunset to die is beyond immoral, especially when they had the supplies to treat her. he tried to force leafpool to break the medicine cat code, for starclan's sake. and sure, tigerstar would've been pissy, but realistically if bramblestar was like "hey keep this on the DL everyone" how on earth would he ever find out???? re: squirrel taking the cats in without permission. There is no rule in the warrior code that says if you see someone bleeding out you need to waste precious time running to your leader to go all "mother may i" to keep them from dying. squirrelflight leaving sunset to die would've been deeply immoral. To go against your leader to protect innocent cats is not a bad thing and I'm tired of people saying that it is! Did you protest firestar sneaking behind bluestar's back to prevent a pointless war with windclan? because that is, fundamentally, the exact same situation squirrelflight was in in sph. the only difference was the relationships-mentor/apprentice rather than mates. But there isn't that big a difference between loving someone platonically and romantically. it is not inherently worse because the unreasonable leader was bramblestar rather than bluestar.
re: sisters threatening to fight back: back being the operative word here. they said they'd fight back, if the clans attacked or intimidated them. the clans send a large patrol to try and threaten them. just because they aren't directly attacking doesn't mean this isn't shameful behavior--being forced out of your land and on the move for safety is dangerous for queen and kits. squirrel knows that if the clans try to threaten the sisters, they will, reasonably, fight back.the sisters only attacked after repeated antagonization. if darktail or sol or some other generic wc villain with a nameless horde of followers had showed up at thunderclan's camp where a queen had freshly kitted saying they needed to leave their territory with the implied threat of a bunch of warriors present, would you blame the clans for fighting back??
bramblestar didn't need to do anything, other than not send a patrol (or help moonlight, at least, to safety, but not participating in driving out a queen is the bare minimum). squirrelflight would not have done what bramblestar did in his paws because squirrelflight's moral compass would not permit it. that's not the kind of cat she is. she cares more about what she thinks is right than clan law, and that's been her character since the start.
re: senile old man yeha, he is, but he still manipulates nightheart to create a situation to humiliate for needing to do his job with the windclan situation for him.
sorry for typing a whole essay! The incident with Brambleclaw and Leafpool, what's the point of that exactly? It's literally Brambleclaw acknowledging his flaws for trusting his own brother, and giving him the benefit of the doubt over Leafpool. Him thinking Leafpool was the reason for the attack isn't farfetched, she DID tell Littlecloud how Cinderpelt died. But either way Firestar agreed that it was Blackstar's choice in the end for thinking he could take advantage of that. However, Brambleclaw didn't expect for his own blood to tell ANOTHER clan something like that so casually, especially not ShadowClan. So yes, that is on Brambleclaw, but I don't see how he's in the wrong for thinking that of Leafpool at first. Especially when Leafpool was thinking so little of him in return merely because she thought he was going to betray his clan, so it's quite ironic. She even thinks he actually does this when she and Squirrelflight believe Ashfur's words, and run off to find Firestar. Same thing applies for the situation over Mudclaw, who by their logic was a traitor, and Hawkfrost did save his own skin by throwing Mudclaw under the bus. Hawkfrost claiming he genuinely thought Mudclaw was the right leader and believed what he was doing was for the good of the clans but then apologized for falling for it (where as we as the readers know that isn't true). Brambleclaw chooses to believe his brother, protesting to defend him, even against Tawnypelt (which is ironic cause she also abandoned him in ThunderClan moons ago). I don't see anything wrong with Brambleclaw clinging to his newly found kin in some way he could, even if it was in a worse light later on. I think people seem to forget that even if he was cautious of Tigerstar, he still wanted to try and reach out to his own brother, because he felt that he understood what it was like living with the weight of his father's terrible legacy. Even if you claim it doesn't make sense for Squirrelflight to be suspicious of Hawkfrost, literally she still had NO basis for her reasons prior to the Mudclaw rebellion. And was especially aggressive over those times against Brambleclaw. And when he did argue with her and bring up him being Tiger kin she stopped avoided or denied his claim. We as the reader, again, know that that's probably not Squirrelflight's intention, but she does do and say this to take unnecessary jabs at Brambleclaw, even in front of Leafpool. It was also one of the main focuses of Brambleclaw's character and his struggles while he was being developed in that arc, to deny it's a theme is nonsensical imo. It's weird that you're blaming Brambleclaw for Firestar dying in the final battle, when Hawkfrost was going to try and kill him regardless of Brambleclaw's involvement. Ashfur helped him, and he did what he did to get back at Squirrelflight, even if you take Brambleclaw out of this scenario, Hawkfrost would still try and kill Firestar for Tigerstar. He just didn't finish him off and left him for Brambleclaw as the test. Also, again, even Hawkfrost wasn't with Tigerstar from the start, he molded into what his father wanted him, while Bramblestar was more cautious and only there for him. Tawnypelt abandoned him when they were still young and left him to face his clan's judgement on his own. While Mothwing was a medicine cat, she chose that path, and the possibility that they would have crossed their paths as often as he would with Hawkfrost is incredibly slim regardless of plot convenience. In the passages of the novella, Squirrelflight was still adamant on not going through with the lie and the kits. It's not until she personal meets them after they were kitted does she change her mind. Before that she wasn't going to do it regardless of what StarClan said. Squirrelflight's reasoning was for Leafpool, and Leafpool alone, not because of StarClan, let alone the prophecy. And when she says Feathertail was right, she was referring to her loving the kits, which is true. Never recieved permanent consequences?? He Brambleclaw was constantly judged for his father's legacy, and literally had to kill his own brother, whom he genuinely did care about despite the path he chose in the end. He lost the only kin he desperately wanted to reach out and connect with in the hardest times of his life?? Not to mention he had to still deal with the shadow of his father and now his brother over his shoulders until the Last Hope, so for moons. He didn't walk out of that situation at all unscathed. Heck, even RiverClan and the other clans were suspicious of him and ThunderClan of possibly murdering Hawkfrost unjustly, despite them making it clear he was a traitor. Yet another cat in his bloodline deemed as one. My point over the kits is that NOTHING is stopping Squirrelflight from telling him the truth. She used him as father fodder. When did Brambleclaw ever use Squirrelflight in the way she used him? She lied to him about his own children for years. And even when faced with the truth at the gathering she still wouldn't say the truth, neither her or Leafpool, so Hollyleaf had to continue to tell everyone after calling them cowards. And when he does ask her why, she can't even give him a proper answer. He has the right to be angry that his mate, whom he trusted, broke the sanctity of their relationship, and used him. StarClan said nothing about her having to lie to her own mate, especially a mate that would have helped her. And when was Brambleclaw harassing Squirrelflight while she was with Ashfur?? She literally, again, kept taking jabs at him, because she hated him being around Hawkfrost, and then ran off to Ashfur as escapism, using him as well??? The clan have been following their rules for moons, if you have an issue with the code, then it's the code, not the cats following it. That's more of a writing thing if anything. And even then, it was Tigertwo that started all the trouble in the books in the first place, antagonizing neighboring borders, and threatening other clans. The sister are also not exactly saints either, they're aggressive misandrist that also abandoned their children at a young age in the middle of the night. While treating them like trash if they ever show back up again, regardless of their kin, there's a reason why Tree holds contempt towards them. At the end of the day, they held Bramble's mate/deputy hostage, and also injured and held a SkyClan leader hostage, he has no reason to trust them. Even if you see it as immoral, he was in the position of leader, and his decision of helping her was now something he got saddled with because his deputy, again, went behind his back and made decisions that she wasn't supposed to be making. In other cases when a cat is brought to camp, the cats either make them wait at a border, especially outsiders. If they're brought into a camp, it's a much different situation. And this is after the Sisters are seen as aggressive trespassers, why on earth should they want to help them and risk getting involved with their enemies and staring clan fights? Also the comparison makes no sense. The clans have established themselves in their homes for ages at this point, while the Sisters are quite literally known for not staying in the same spot long. They're rogues, cats outside of the code, why should they care about them? Seriously? Because if I were in the position of leadership and had to choose with chasing our rogues or fighting other trained warrior clan cats, I'm going to choose to chase out the rogues. It's quite literally the situation of a leader choosing his clan over others. Alright, logically, what if Bramblestar didn't send a patrol. Squirrelflight and Leafpool would STILL sneak out and still help the sisters. The sisters would still be stubborn and won't leave, WindClan and ShadowClan would still show up and a fight would still break out. Squirrelflight would still be accused as a traitor, and Tigertwo would still corner Moonlight and still get her kill, if not worse. WindClan and ShadowClan would have not held back and made the situation much worse, if not for ThunderClan being there. And then lol and behold Squirrel and Leaf BOTH possibly die too, or just Leaf, and how does that go down for Bramblestar when he finds out? Sometimes people need to make choices better with their mind over their heart. Just because you think doing something is morally good, still doesn't make it a good decision and could easily make the situation worse. Again, senile, old man, with PTSD, and dementia. Do you genuinely think he's really thinking properly and making proper choices right now under his declining condition? I should clarify, though! I do like squirrelflight, but even I can tell you that the way she addressed the hawkfrost situation was NOT it. she just goes up to him and goes "why are you talking with hawkfrost >:/ you know he's not to be trusted>://" If she'd approached it gentler, and made it clear that this was coming from a place of concern, like "I'm worried about you talking to hawkfrost. [Reasons why.] I don't think he can be trusted" this whole kerfuffle couldve been avoided, probably
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Dec 18, 2022 14:15:23 GMT -5
I tend to like Squirrelflight more, though my opinion on Bramblestar usually ranges from either neutral (most of the time) to dislike (SqH). The only time I've ever actually liked him was in TPB. On the topic of her not trusting Hawkfrost, though, to say that it wasn't because of Tigerstar isn't entirely true, but I think it's worth mentioning that it also started before his father's identity was even revealed.
She technically gives her reasons in the very next book, but as far as Brambleclaw is concerned (especially since he doesn't know about her telepathic connection to Leafpool), she's just spouting nonsense at this point in time.
So take this as you will, I guess? Overall, everything about this plotline felt horribly contrived to me.
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Post by starlightstoryteller on Dec 18, 2022 15:04:02 GMT -5
I tend to like Squirrelflight more, though my opinion on Bramblestar usually ranges from either neutral (most of the time) to dislike (SqH). The only time I've ever actually liked him was in TPB. On the topic of her not trusting Hawkfrost, though, to say that it wasn't because of Tigerstar isn't entirely true, but I think it's worth mentioning that it also started before his father's identity was even revealed. She technically gives her reasons in the very next book, but as far as Brambleclaw is concerned (especially since he doesn't know about her telepathic connection to Leafpool), she's just spouting nonsense at this point in time.
So take this as you will, I guess? Overall, everything about this plotline felt horribly contrived to me. dang, I stand corrected. It seems more like a semi-unconscious bias she's trying to overcome, but girl...at least firestar had the excuse of ptsd! you didnt even know him bruh. you of all people should do better at not judging people by the circumstances of their birth. although she gets over this by sunrise, when bramble overhears her talking to ashfur.
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