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Post by Lizard 🦎 on Aug 7, 2022 22:10:47 GMT -5
by not doing anything to help Mapleshade's kits while they were in danger? I'm curious to see people's opinions on this.
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Post by Hollyfall on Aug 7, 2022 22:11:59 GMT -5
Yes. Very blatantly.
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Post by Aqua on Aug 7, 2022 22:33:43 GMT -5
I don't remember much of the book, but yes. She said so herself that she thought the kits would be saved, admitting that she knew they were in trouble. I understand if Frecklewish didn't know how to swim, but even then, she could've run off and tried to get help from a clan patrol. There's no excuse for what she did. None.
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Post by Punkpaw on Aug 7, 2022 23:20:21 GMT -5
Yes, no ifs or buts about it.
Question is how come Russetfur got away with it. Is it because Berrykit didn't die? Or is Starclan more inclined to forgive that kind of shit if it wasn't a Clan kit?
Seriously, can we talk about this? At least Frecklewish had the decency to try to defend herself, which in turn indicated that she had SOME misgivings. Russetfur was ****ing ENJOYING Berrykit's suffering.
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Post by cheeselamps on Aug 7, 2022 23:33:13 GMT -5
Yes, she did. I still have mixed feelings about her, but damn, she could have tried something. Some people claim that she didn't know how to swim because she was from ThunderClan, but what about Mapleshade? She was also a ThunderClan cat and still managed to swim in order to save her children. There was a huge chance those kits might die at any moment, but she chose to leave anyway.
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#a3c5e6
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𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Aug 7, 2022 23:38:47 GMT -5
Oh, she definitely did. I'm still unsure about her being in the Dark Forest, though.
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Post by Aqua on Aug 7, 2022 23:41:20 GMT -5
I don't think it's fair of fans to get angry at Frecklewish for not swimming in the river to save the kits. There were three of them, and it was a rushing river. She can't carry all three by herself. one would drown anyway, even if Mapleshade jumped in the river. honestly I'm more disappointed in Frecklewish for not calling for help than anything. a whole patrol could've saved the kits, but I understand why Frecklewish didn't want to save three drowning kits. it's dangerous for her. mapleshade was unfair to put the blame on frecklewish and kill her. not even mapleshade could've saved all three of them.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Aug 7, 2022 23:45:01 GMT -5
Some people claim that she didn't know how to swim because she was from ThunderClan, but what about Mapleshade? She was also a ThunderClan cat and still managed to swim in order to save her children. I'm sorry, but I'll never understand this argument. I don't mean to sound mean, but it's pretty weak. Mapleshade's mate was literally from RiverClan, the only one of the five Clans who are actually capable of swimming. There's no reason to think Appledusk couldn't have taught her. Regardless of whether she should've done something or not, Frecklewish wouldn't have known how to swim for obvious reasons. Even in RiverClan itself, it's taught, not some innate ability they have.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Aug 7, 2022 23:52:33 GMT -5
the mere fact she didnt stick around to confirm they were safe or not is what seals her sentencing in my mind. she is guilty. even if she couldnt actually save them herself, her not sticking around to check makes her complicit in their deaths just like mapleshade (the one who put them in the situation in the first place).
the riverclan cats tried their best within their precautions to save them, so they're not too blame like frecklewish. it's not their fault that they couldnt save very young kits in a raging, flooding river. it made rescue impossible. but at least they TRIED with what little time they had to try at all.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Aug 7, 2022 23:55:21 GMT -5
Some people claim that she didn't know how to swim because she was from ThunderClan, but what about Mapleshade? She was also a ThunderClan cat and still managed to swim in order to save her children. I'm sorry, but I'll never understand this argument. I don't mean to sound mean, but it's pretty weak. Mapleshade's mate was literally from RiverClan, the only one of the five Clans who are actually capable of swimming. There's no reason to think Appledusk couldn't have taught her. Regardless of whether she should've done something or not, Frecklewish wouldn't have known how to swim for obvious reasons. Even in RiverClan itself, it's taught, not some innate ability they have. i dont like that argument. all cats irl have survival instrincts to swim, meaning they avoid water at all costs, but if push comes to shove, they have basic instincts to get them swimming to GET OUT of the water. but yeah, riverclan's natural swimming instincts r better, and they train their cats, generation to generation, to hone in on that instinct and actually turn it into an active skill. but mapleshade being able to swim shouldnt be due to just having seen appledusk. she still had basic cat instincts. same with frecklewish, but since she's not riverclan and she wasnt trained since kithood to like the water and change her survival instincts into an active skill, her instrincts r to avoid the water instead. i used to argue that frecklewish should have tried jumping in, but now i pretty much changed my mind. it's her leaving the scene before finding out the fate of the kits she used to love is what cements her as complicit in their deaths jsut like maplshade. u do not leave a scene where children r in danger just bc u assume others will save them. her assumptions were wrong, so that makes her complicit.
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Post by cheeselamps on Aug 8, 2022 0:00:52 GMT -5
I don't think it's fair of fans to get angry at Frecklewish for not swimming in the river to save the kits. There were three of them, and it was a rushing river. She can't carry all three by herself. one would drown anyway, even if Mapleshade jumped in the river. honestly I'm more disappointed in Frecklewish for not calling for help than anything. a whole patrol could've saved the kits, but I understand why Frecklewish didn't want to save three drowning kits. it's dangerous for her. mapleshade was unfair to put the blame on frecklewish and kill her. not even mapleshade could've saved all three of them. Yeah, probably they wouldn't have been able to save all three of them, but who knows? Maybe one or two could have been saved. The point is that more help from adult cats could have been useful at that moment.
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Post by stupidflower on Aug 8, 2022 10:45:58 GMT -5
The thing is, we don’t know if Frecklewish went to get help. We know she told the Clan what happened; it’s very possible she did try to get help. And she might have stuck around to see if the kits were saved, but lost sight of them. It was the middle of a flash flood; she likely couldn’t see what was happening, therefore wouldn’t know that the kits hadn’t been saved. Or, she did see the RiverClan cats pull the kits out of the water, and assumed they were still alive.
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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Aug 8, 2022 13:25:35 GMT -5
To be honest, I'm not sure. I can see why others might think she did and why others think she didn't. It's all up to interpreting the three scenes. Both sides have very valid arguments.
Obviously, she can't swim(and shouldn't try to) but if she had other alternatives to that such as screaming for help or throwing something out then I would have hoped she'd done those things(even if they probably wouldn't have done much).
The scene for me just has too little information for me to make a clear judgment here.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2022 13:25:50 GMT -5
Isn’t that why the Erin’s put her in the dark forest?
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Aug 8, 2022 13:30:00 GMT -5
Isn’t that why the Erin’s put her in the dark forest? yeah but people still argue she shouldnt be there
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2022 13:42:53 GMT -5
Isn’t that why the Erin’s put her in the dark forest? yeah but people still argue she shouldnt be there Probably because of plot. I betcha she’s gonna be in ASC someway or another
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Aug 8, 2022 13:48:48 GMT -5
yeah but people still argue she shouldnt be there Probably because of plot. I betcha she’s gonna be in ASC someway or another ngl i think that too. mapleshade is still technically around, and then the article of frecklewish came out...i think it could means maple's return and freckle's revenge.
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Post by Punkpaw on Aug 8, 2022 19:03:13 GMT -5
Isn’t that why the Erin’s put her in the dark forest? yeah but people still argue she shouldnt be there Which is bullshit. If somebody would leave a baby to a horrid fate, let's see how they like getting left to rot.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2022 19:22:34 GMT -5
I have no real opinion on whether or not Frecklewish belongs in the Dark Forest (I'm inclined to say she doesn't, but I haven't read Vengeance so I still need to judge her for myself) but yeah, the code says you can't neglect a kit in danger and as far as I've heard she didn't really do anything to help.
What astounds me is that Frecklewish gets to rot in hell while Russetfur gets to prance around in StarClan scot-free. Russetfur was much worse than Frecklewish.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2022 20:31:24 GMT -5
PSA, sort of related to this but not really: If you see someone drowning, unless you have lifeguard training and equipment do not jump in and try to save them. Even an adult trying to hold a child above water while swimming themselves will run into extreme difficulty and could potentially make the situation worse. Instead, either throw them something buoyant that they can grab onto or reach out with something they can grab, like a pool noodle or a stick (but make sure you will not get pulled in if they grab it).
I'm not trying to weigh in with the Frecklewish debate here, just something I want to put out there. Idk if this applies to cats or not lol
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Aug 8, 2022 21:31:41 GMT -5
PSA, sort of related to this but not really: If you see someone drowning, unless you have lifeguard training and equipment do not jump in and try to save them. Even an adult trying to hold a child above water while swimming themselves will run into extreme difficulty and could potentially make the situation worse. Instead, either throw them something buoyant that they can grab onto or reach out with something they can grab, like a pool noodle or a stick (but make sure you will not get pulled in if they grab it). I'm not trying to weigh in with the Frecklewish debate here, just something I want to put out there. Idk if this applies to cats or not lol yeah i changed my mind on the whole "frecklewish should have jumped in" thing bc of this kind of thing. i realize now that that was very dumb of me to say just bc i hated frecklewish lol
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Post by Hollyfall on Aug 8, 2022 22:09:50 GMT -5
PSA, sort of related to this but not really: If you see someone drowning, unless you have lifeguard training and equipment do not jump in and try to save them. Even an adult trying to hold a child above water while swimming themselves will run into extreme difficulty and could potentially make the situation worse. Instead, either throw them something buoyant that they can grab onto or reach out with something they can grab, like a pool noodle or a stick (but make sure you will not get pulled in if they grab it). I'm not trying to weigh in with the Frecklewish debate here, just something I want to put out there. Idk if this applies to cats or not lol I totally get this and don't believe Frecklewish is entirely in the wrong for not going in after the kits. I'd have to pull up specific sections of the book but there were a few instances where the characters note it had been raining a lot and there were risks of floods. It'd be dangerous for anyone. Personally I'm more irked that she didn't even try. She didn't need to jump in; why not push a stick or something towards them? Call for help? Try and make sure they were okay? She did nothing.
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Post by Punkpaw on Aug 9, 2022 0:03:15 GMT -5
PSA, sort of related to this but not really: If you see someone drowning, unless you have lifeguard training and equipment do not jump in and try to save them. Even an adult trying to hold a child above water while swimming themselves will run into extreme difficulty and could potentially make the situation worse. Instead, either throw them something buoyant that they can grab onto or reach out with something they can grab, like a pool noodle or a stick (but make sure you will not get pulled in if they grab it). I'm not trying to weigh in with the Frecklewish debate here, just something I want to put out there. Idk if this applies to cats or not lol This is a good point, but I'm not sure this applies to cats. Part of why it's dangerous for a human to attempt to rescue someone in the water is because two of the four limbs they would need to help THEMSELVES swim - that is, their arms - are also the same limbs that they would have to be using to try to carry the drowning person to safety. Using their arms to help the victim will usually greatly restrict their ability to move, even before considering that they would need to expend a lot of energy to keep the other person afloat along with themselves. That's why a floaty or some sort of strongly buoyant object is a necessity for aquatic rescues; it both gives the victim something to hold onto that will keep them afloat with no struggle while also freeing up the limbs of the rescuer, enabling them to stay mobile. Additionally, being able to hold onto something that's floating allows them to level their body in a way that enables them to use their legs to kick and gain horizontal movement. This applies a lot less to cats, because cats usually don't use their limbs to grab things. They usually just use their jaws to grasp things, while their limbs are usually reserved for moving or assaulting things.
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Post by Lizard 🦎 on Aug 9, 2022 0:15:20 GMT -5
Despite not liking Mapleshade myself, one of the things I find interesting about Mapleshade's Vengeance is how there are so many different perspectives of things that happened in that book. Like, most cats aren't entirely right or entirely wrong, and it really gets you thinking about the morality of different situations. Many things in the book could have been solved if the characters had gone about things differently.
The theme of moral ambiguity is very strong in this book, at least that's how I perceived it.
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Bisexual
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ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
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Easing back in
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Aug 9, 2022 8:35:13 GMT -5
100% and she deserves to be where she is for it. Russetfur shouldn't get off scott-free either but the only argument I can assume to be made was that Frecklewish couldn't atone for what she did and merely told ThunderClan. She could have gloated for all we know, but I personally doubt she asked for help. Russetfur was at least a somewhat decent deputy and warrior to ShadowClan standards even if I hate her. (Honestly, I feel like she should have gotten some kind of punishment for her actions but whatever, StarClan..)
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Post by honeynectar on Aug 13, 2022 10:15:04 GMT -5
The thing is, we don’t know if Frecklewish went to get help. We know she told the Clan what happened; it’s very possible she did try to get help. And she might have stuck around to see if the kits were saved, but lost sight of them. It was the middle of a flash flood; she likely couldn’t see what was happening, therefore wouldn’t know that the kits hadn’t been saved. Or, she did see the RiverClan cats pull the kits out of the water, and assumed they were still alive. We actually do know if Frecklewish went to get help. She didn't. She stood there, watching Mapleshade swim in the river and assumed they'd be okay because a RiverClan patrol was nearby. After that, she literally just walked away from the scene and told Nettlepaw, who then told Mapleshade.
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Post by Stormwind on Aug 16, 2022 9:47:49 GMT -5
She definitely broke the code, but I don't think she should have gone to the dark forest for it. There are cats in starclan who have done worse.
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Aroace
Tilu
Stop saying you're going to the moon!
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Post by Tilu on Aug 16, 2022 10:26:20 GMT -5
She definitely broke the code, but I don't think she should have gone to the dark forest for it. There are cats in starclan who have done worse. Yeah
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Post by Bristleflight on Aug 16, 2022 11:02:50 GMT -5
No she's not the best person er cat but what else could she do. I'm not jumping in that river to just get in the way.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Aug 16, 2022 12:09:33 GMT -5
I suppose I can concede that she broke the code, by lack of involvement. But still don’t think she belongs in the Dark Forest. There’s far worse candidates that did far more perverse things under much more favorable circumstances. Russetfur allowed Berrykit to suffer willingly when there was nothing hindering her patrol to assist. Clear Sky abandoned Thunder for what reasons? And contemplated eliminating Birch and Alder simply for not wanting to take responsibility for caring for them after slaughtering their mother, and that’s without any adverse conditions influencing his decision, it’s made freely by his own accord. Onestar denied medicine to a clan on verge of extinction due to illness, attacked Thunderclan unprovoked, exiled Crowfeather without reason, except pride and arrogance, and was too cowardly to man-up and face his mistakes when it came to driving out Darktail. Mudclaw led a rebellion against his own clan. All of which are sitting snuggly up in Starclan.
Meanwhile Frecklewish is placed into the Dark Forest for inaction, while being influenced by adverse conditions that undoubtedly affected her judgement. Grief from lose, anger from betrayal, Adverse weather, raging rapids etc. during a scene that likely lasted less than 30 seconds. And any course of action she could take would of been rather precarious and risky, and not completely thought through due to the dangerous and time-sensitive nature of the catastrophe. Could she have looked for a branch? Sure, but doubtful she find a suitable branch with enough reach, and heavy enough to not immediately be swept away by the current, and her with it. Could she have called to the Riverclan patrol? It’s possible she didn’t notice them until after they already entered the river to initiate a rescue. Suppose she could of jumped in, that’s also an incredibly dangerous and potentially a futile action.
Now that doesn’t excuse her from the offense. But I don’t think her disengagement to risk her own life makes her a malevolent cat worthy of condemnation. And when you have Clear Sky and Russetfur, nonchalantly advocating to execute kits under no catastrophic conditions, impending doom or risk to themselves to help. Yet go to Starclan. The logic is too inconsistent, and I can’t seriously rationalize Frecklewish deserving to go to cat Hell.
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