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Post by Aqua on Jul 28, 2022 16:11:12 GMT -5
Should Hollyleaf feel bad for killing Ashfur??
On one hand, Ashfur was threatening her life and brothers' - and nearly destroyed their lives in a fire because Squirrelflight rejected him.
On the other hand, she broke the warrior code and killed a cat in cold blood, then told the truth anyway. Hollyleaf knew what she was doing, and killed Ashfur because he wanted to tell the Clans their secret.
What do you think? Should she feel bad for what she did?
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Post by Bristleflight-bristlefrost! on Jul 28, 2022 16:33:15 GMT -5
She should. At that point ashfur was def a bad cat but he didn't actually want to kill any cat back then. She should of gone to firestar he is her grandfather and leader.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2022 16:42:05 GMT -5
Whether or not she should feel guilty is a question I can't answer, but I definitely would in her situation. Murder is murder, no matter how horrible the victim is.
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Post by scarletflames on Jul 28, 2022 19:40:25 GMT -5
I'm okay with Hollyleaf not feeling guilty over murdering Ashfur, since:
1) Back in TNP, Ashfur helped Hawkfrost take one of Firestar's lives with the fox trap plot and involved his apprentice at the time (Birchpaw, I think). That was traitorous, and I believe he said at one point he was involved in Firestar's attempted murder as revenge for Squirrelflight not becoming his mate. So by the end of TNP, I believe he was a danger to Thunderclan due to his treason, and involving an innocent apprentice in that sceme, not to mention plotting with a cat from another Clan to assasinate his leader. I think Ashfur's involvement in the Firestar fox trap plot alone should've landed him in the Dark Forest, especially because his reason for wanting to help murder his leader was pretty malicious (just to hurt said leader's daughter because she didn't marry him!)
2)This is more mild, and it's been a long time since I've read POT, but there were times I was uncomfortable with some of Ashfur's scenes with Lionpaw, and those scenes might have been foreshadowing for the famous Fire Scene. They physically fought twice, and while Lionblaze started it at least once, I think Hollyleaf was concerned at how intense Ashfur was fighting with Lionblaze, and thought something to the effect of Ashfur had lost control. Also, if I'm remembering correctly, he left Lionpaw alone to learn a badger fighting move... when Lionpaw noted it wouldn't be possible for him to learn the move without his mentor. Basically, Ashfur set him up to fail that day, and the only reason Lionpaw learned that move was because Tigerstar taught him that move. I think Ashfur was mad because Lionpaw was being disrespectful, but it didn't sit right with me that Ashfur responded to the disrespect by setting up his apprentice to fail.
3) Also, in POT, I think Brambleclaw mentions to Lionpaw at some point he thought a Thunderclan cat wished him harm. That cat was probably Ashfur.
4) The famous Fire Scene, where Ashfur threatens to kill the 3, one of whom was a medicine cat... just to get revenge on Squirrelflight for not marrying him.
5) He wasn't just going to kill (or help kill) random cats: Jayfeather was a medicine cat, Firestar was leader, so he was willing to harm his Clan by getting rid of the leader and medicine cat... all because of unrequited love.
The TL;DR is I think Ashfur was such a huge threat to Thunderclan, even alive, that I'm okay with Hollyleaf not feeling guilty about murdering a cat that helped an assassination attempt on her Grandfather, who was Clan Leader, and the cat that was about to murder her and her siblings (one of whom was a Medicine Cat) in front of (who she thought at the time) was her mother.
But, if Hollyleaf should feel guilty for anything, I think it would be her threatening to murder Leafpool, specifically with deathberries, which would make it look like a suicide, and cover-up that she was the one would've made Leafpool take them under duress. I know that she stopped when Leafpool said that living would be more painful than dying, but her sparing Leafpool's life for that reason seemed cruel. I understand Hollyleaf was experiencing an existential crisis and wasn't in her right mind, and I don't think the Lie about her parentage was right, but that scene with Leafpool really disturbed me. And I wish that Hollyleaf's story had specifically addressed that scene.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2022 20:30:42 GMT -5
YeS bEcAuSe Of PlOt,ObViOuSlY
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Transgender
🌌dapple🌙 (formerly freckle)
I didn't get thunder yet but the one thing I wonder abt has been spoiled so should I still buy?
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Post by 🌌dapple🌙 (formerly freckle) on Jul 28, 2022 21:05:48 GMT -5
Considering the candidate: no
But if she had morals and general emotions: yes, pretty sure anyone would feel guilty after that.
(Personally im more worried if she feels guilty about threatening to poison her mother but that's a thread for another day imo)
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Asexual
#07B04C
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Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Jul 29, 2022 17:15:32 GMT -5
No, because Ashfur had literally just put her life in danger.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jul 29, 2022 17:45:23 GMT -5
No, because Ashfur had literally just put her life in danger. Days ago, yes. I think that's the issue here. Had Hollyleaf killed Ashfur in self defense, that's one thing entirely. But that is not what happened. By this point in time, her life was in zero danger, the only thing in danger was their reputation. She killed Ashfur out of pride and because she wanted to continue being special, not because she felt her life was in any danger. Ashfur got what was coming to him, don't get me wrong, but Hollyleaf's actions are totally independent from the worst things he did.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 29, 2022 19:45:02 GMT -5
She is guilty of killing someone in cold-blood, regardless of whether or not her victim was a shitty dude. As Vectoring pointed out, the reason she murdered Ashfur wasn't because she thought he was a danger to the clan, or because she felt her life was threatened - it was to silence him. For a secret that she herself would tell everyone anyways.
Frankly, the Three should have just told Firestar what happened. Ashfur probably would've been exiled for attempting to murder three (four?) clanmates. Hollyleaf decided outright assassination was the way to go. So yeah, she should feel guilty.
I think trying to spin Ashfur's murder as a #girlboss moment for Hollyleaf is gross.
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Post by Aqua on Jul 29, 2022 20:54:24 GMT -5
Thinking about this. What makes her think she was doing the right thing to kill Ashfur? Reporting Firestar would've been the right thing to do. If Hollyleaf explained to him, he would have understood and given her a fair hearing. She was scared of her reputation and left her brothers to deal with it alone. That's messed up.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jul 29, 2022 21:22:50 GMT -5
Thinking about this. What makes her think she was doing the right thing to kill Ashfur? Reporting Firestar would've been the right thing to do. If Hollyleaf explained to him, he would have understood and given her a fair hearing. She was scared of her reputation and left her brothers to deal with it alone. That's messed up. She gives an internal monologue that explains it pretty well It was pride.
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Post by Punkpaw on Jul 29, 2022 21:35:24 GMT -5
She should feel bad about her reason and I'm pretty sure she eventually does unless I'm misremembering shit. That said, killing murderous incels is an objectively good thing and I'm not about to pretend otherwise.
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Post by Hollyfall on Jul 30, 2022 16:01:33 GMT -5
Thinking about this. What makes her think she was doing the right thing to kill Ashfur? Reporting Firestar would've been the right thing to do. If Hollyleaf explained to him, he would have understood and given her a fair hearing. She was scared of her reputation and left her brothers to deal with it alone. That's messed up. Reporting it to Firestar actually might have made things worse for Hollyleaf. Assuming she informs Firestar and Firestar holds a trial or whatever for Ashfur, what's exactly stopping him from just bluntly revealing to the Clan the entire secret? The whole point of her killing him was to make sure that nobody told the secret (and as Vectoring pointed out, her pride and reputation also at stake). As long as Ashfur lived, he was a danger to her. By prolonging Ashfur's life, the chance increased that he would spill the secret. Hell a trial and almost certainly exile would absolutely make him reveal it. Morally? Yes, telling Firestar is the better thing to do. But it really could have had an adverse affect and make things even worse for Hollyleaf, Lionblaze, Jayfeather, Squirrelflight, and Leafpool. Ashfur is a piece of work that deserved everything that came to him, but Hollyleaf still decided to kill him when he was off-guard because her reputation was on the line.
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Post by Aqua on Jul 30, 2022 22:02:35 GMT -5
Thinking about this. What makes her think she was doing the right thing to kill Ashfur? Reporting Firestar would've been the right thing to do. If Hollyleaf explained to him, he would have understood and given her a fair hearing. She was scared of her reputation and left her brothers to deal with it alone. That's messed up. She gives an internal monologue that explains it pretty well It was pride. Is pride the right word? She killed Ashfur because he was threatening to destroy her plans. What bothers me is that Hollyleaf left her brothers and cared about her ambition; she wasn't doing it for her clan or everyone's safety. She thought of herself. And she wanted her mother to die because of the lies. Hollyleaf's a pretty disgusting character, although it's been years since I've read Po3. But I couldn't forgive her when she wanted to kill Leafpool.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 31, 2022 11:22:29 GMT -5
But reporting to Firestar would have been the better option than what actually happened, regardless. The effects that Hollyleaf's actions did ripple throughout not just ThunderClan, but all four clans, for moons.
If she did tell Firestar the truth, then good. Firestar, without a doubt, would have no reason not to side with them, especially because of the prophecy, they were kin, and they had a legitimate reason to put Ashfur on trial for attempted murder. Attempted murder of not only his own daughter, but his grandchildren, and one of them is a bloody medicine cat.
So what if the clan finds out about the three being half clan, I feel like at a time like this, the attempted murderer would be the bigger issue?? They could deal with Ashfur first, then deal with the half-clan situation second, it would make a drastic difference than was canonly went down.
Not only would it solve the Ashfur problem (for now) but it would also keep such business WITHIN ThunderClan, better damage control than the absolute chaos caused in the gathering scene. Hollyleaf didn't have to make her own family's business into every clan's business.
Ashfur would be exiled for attempted murder, and then they could warn the other clans about him, simple. While Squirrelflight and Leafpool can be punished as well, but obviously not as extreme as exile, because that would be quite ridiculous, either way, they shouldn't get off scott-free either. And this would also give more room for Firestar to communicate with the three later about the prophecy (not the rest of the clan obviously) when that plot roles around.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2022 0:08:41 GMT -5
she should not, but she very much does. that makes her interesting
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Post by Willowbreeze on Aug 3, 2022 1:08:14 GMT -5
It's up to her whether to feel guilty or not but she probably did. It wasn't the best decision, really. And murder is murder.
But I don't think she have to feel so guilty about it. If it was me I'd regret the decision but I won't be too guilty or feel sorry for him. Ashfur wasn't someone important to Hollyleaf, he was just her adoptive mom's crazy ex. Also he had tried to kill Hollyleaf and her littermates for revenge before.
I'm not trying defend her actions. I know what she did was wrong, but I wouldn't feel guilty in her place.
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