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Post by Chicken on Jan 23, 2022 19:06:49 GMT -5
Okay, I have a question for you all. In MBTI some types have this function called introverted feeling, introverted feeling focuses on personal values, not only your personal values, but rather the personal values of everyone, basically, it's like live and let live, this is what seems right to me, and all that. I could go more into depth, but that's the basics. Types with high Fi are ISFP, INFP, ESFP, and ENFP.
Okay, now, time for my question, do you think people with high Fi are more forgiving of cats who have been in forbidden relationships? Since like forbidden relationships is all about what the cat in question wants, and what feels right to them, I am wondering if people with high Fi (ISFPs, INFPs, ESFPs, and ENFPs) might have an easier time relating to/understanding these characters. I hope my question was easy enough to understand and that it wasn't too annoying.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 23, 2022 19:35:52 GMT -5
Are you asking about fans and our feelings toward the cats? Because I was about to sit here and spout off about how high Fi cats are the most likely to BE in forbidden relationships (Leafpool and Dovewing are both INFP, and Crowfeather is possibly as well). Then the cats that forgive them are usually high F types, whether extroverted or introverted-- Squirrelflight is ENFP and supported her sister. Lionblaze is INFJ (maybe-- that's my interpretation), and he was bitter for a time but was the first of his siblings to forgive his mothers. Jayfeather refused to forgive Crowfeather and Hollyleaf famously refused to forgive anyone, and those two are INTP and ESTJ respectively, the first of which completely lacks conscious Fi, while the second has inferior Fi.
As for fans, I don't think it's quite as clear cut. Fe types are more likely to stick to rules, yes, but that's because they don't want to rock the boat, not because they have some moral attachment to rule following. Fe types are sensitive to social customs, so whether they condemn or support forbidden romances is too complex of a topic to really predict how they'll respond.
High Fi types might relate to these characters more, but more likely they'll just make the argument of "why shouldn't they be allowed to be happy?" (You see that argument with Dovewing lovers a lot), which is an Fi argument regardless of how the person feels about the character in question. Fi types stick to their own moral compass and are less conscious of the social structure/customs, so they can also go either way on this opinion, but for different reasons than the Fe types.
I know that was a lot, and I didn't really edit it after typing. If something doesn't make sense, lmk, I probably made a dumb mistake somewhere
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Post by Chicken on Jan 23, 2022 19:41:55 GMT -5
Skypaw13I was asking the fans who have been typed as these types, or if they know people who are these types, but the feelings about cats is a very interesting question too, I didn't even think about that! That makes sense, that's what I was wondering, like if their values made them more likely to understand/relate to/forgive a character who has been in a forbidden relationship, regardless of who the character is, just the fact that they were in a forbidden relationship. For Fe types, I always assumed they'd be more opposed to forbidden relationships, I feel that they'd be more concerned with how everyone around is affected. Like, those types who are like "But what about Bramblestar's feelings and the fact that everyone was lied to?" Or something like that, but that's just my thought on it, I could be completely wrong.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 23, 2022 20:03:31 GMT -5
Skypaw13 I was asking the fans who have been typed as these types, or if they know people who are these types, but the feelings about cats is a very interesting question too, I didn't even think about that! That makes sense, that's what I was wondering, like if their values made them more likely to understand/relate to/forgive a character who has been in a forbidden relationship, regardless of who the character is, just the fact that they were in a forbidden relationship. For Fe types, I always assumed they'd be more opposed to forbidden relationships, I feel that they'd be more concerned with how everyone around is affected. Like, those types who are like "But what about Bramblestar's feelings and the fact that everyone was lied to?" Or something like that, but that's just my thought on it, I could be completely wrong. For sure! My main point was that Fi and Fe arguments can go both ways. You need to look at the argument they're making, not the opinion they hold. So like an Fi type might actually be against Squirrelflight because they have a lot of personal empathy with Brambleclaw ("If MY wife lied to me, I would feel horrible, therefore Squirrel is wrong), while an Fe type might be in support of Squirrelflight because they see the whole situation and find it the most net positive course of action ("The three kits would have had horrible lives if Squirrel didn't take them in, and she might have felt uncomfortable bringing Brambleclaw into the whole debacle, therefore Squirrel was right"). side note: Fe always occurs in a pair with Ti, so you'll see Fe people making more logic-based arguments, whereas Fi occurs in a pair with Te, so Fi people will make more empathy and gut-feeling based arguments. Neither is wrong, but they're very different arguing styles. And some Fi types can be hell-bent rule followers too-- the ISTJ and ESTJ are both Fi types (though admittedly low), and they're both known for sticking to the rules to an almost unreasonable extent. There's just way too many variables to predict someone's overall opinion. The most you can do is predict the style of arguments they might make. Answering your post kind of out of order, but as far as what values someone holds. There's literally no way to predict that based on their type. An ISFP or INFP isn't going to relate to Dovewing just because she wants to be happy. In fact, ISFPs and INFPs can make really strong arguments AGAINST Dovewing because they feel bad for Ivypool or some other character involved. Fi types make a moral judgement (right or wrong), which can put them on either side of the forbidden relationship debate.
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Post by Chicken on Jan 23, 2022 20:14:22 GMT -5
Skypaw13 Oh that makes sense Yeah! I heard about the Ti-Fe and Fi-Te thing, and it makes sense to me, like the video I watched, explained how Ti-Fe people always used logic for the arguments but were a bit softer sharing their findings as a way to relate it to the feelings of everyone, but their core is logic, whereas with Te-Fi people, they're more rough in their delivery, but their reasonings are more about their personal values and stuff. Watching the clip of the Ti-Fe spectrum person was like watching a video of myself, but then again, I also relate to a lot of things this INFP youtuber says, and they use Fi-Te so it's really hard to tell, but I'm like 80% I'm on the Ti-Fe scale. They have the same with perceptions too! like Ni-Se and Ne-Si.
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Post by Redstorm on Jan 23, 2022 20:52:27 GMT -5
This is really cool! I love the focus on cognitive functions lol. I don't have too much time to write something long, but I'd guess yes for both characters and fans. Only thing is us fans are biased on supporting forbidden relationships because most of us were raised ok that.
Also I think if they do both accept, it'd be done differently. High extraverted feeling typee would be like respecting the choice while high introverted feeling types would be more celebratory of it.
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Post by Chicken on Jan 24, 2022 5:08:37 GMT -5
This is really cool! I love the focus on cognitive functions lol. I don't have too much time to write something long, but I'd guess yes for both characters and fans. Only thing is us fans are biased on supporting forbidden relationships because most of us were raised ok that. Also I think if they do both accept, it'd be done differently. High extraverted feeling typee would be like respecting the choice while high introverted feeling types would be more celebratory of it. Thanks! I appreciate the fact that there is someone else who knows about the cognitive functions. Did you know it's actually not that difficult to figure out your type? (well, if you know yourself well enough) Okay so there are two axis, your judging axis (how you make decisions) and your perceiving axis (how you take in information) I think. Okay so with your judging axis, you have 2 axises (axi?) what the heck is the plural of that word? I'll have to look it up later, along with what I'm telling you to make sure it's 100% correct, but to be honest, I'll probably forget. Anyway, you have your 2 judging axeese.. Fi-Te and Ti-Fe, those pairings will always be together, you can't have one without the other, and ofc it can be flipped like Te-Fi and Fe-Ti. If you know what judging axis you fall into, then that eliminates 8 of the types. Next, is the perceiving axis, just like the judging one, there are 2 of them, Si-Ne and Ni-Se or Ne-Si and Se-Ni, just like with the judging axis pairs, these will always be together. Once you find out which you fall into, that eliminates 8 of the types. Now, you cross reference, you match the types who are...let's say you decided you're on the Ti-Fe axis and the Se-Ni axis, that would leave you with just four types to choose from, ESTP, ISTP, INFJ, and ENFJ, which doesn't narrow it down 100% but I think it narrows it down quite a bit. Being raised to think it's okay is a really good reason as to why someone would be more supportive of the idea.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 24, 2022 17:57:54 GMT -5
axes (what the hell is that quote format, I'm sorry I suck at computers)
also, I have no idea about axis theory, but I tried to draw a picture of what you were talking about, lmk if it's incorrect: I'll create a better one later, I'm kinda on a lunch break, lol
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Post by Chicken on Jan 25, 2022 13:31:51 GMT -5
Skypaw13Oh thanks! I feel dumb now lol, axes didn't even cross my mind. The picture thing is so cool! I love it, it makes it easier for people to understand imo, because it actually shows it on a visual level. This will make it so much easier for me to remember the function stacks now! I am pretty confident with the Ti-Fe axis ones, but not so much the Fi-Te ones but this chart makes it a lot easier, so thanks! Also, to keep this on topic with Warriors so we don't break the rules and give the staff a headache, what types do you see your least favorite and favorite characters as? I know personality database has them, but I don't think personality database is 100% correct, and I know you've said this before, but now, I can see it too. Like, on this other show, they typed this guy as an INTJ, but in my opinion, he's a total ISTP or another strong sensor type. They said he only believes what is right in front of him, which is 100% a sensor thing, since they're all about concrete facts and stuff. Also, just more things about him led me to think he was an ISTP, but I've not watched the full show or seen how he develops, but as of right now, he seems like an ISTP to me. There's also another show where this girl is typed as an ESFJ, but she has STRONG Fi-Te, like she gets angry, she gets her feelings hurt by this girl because she tried to be this girl's friend, and the girl totally shot her down, and now her primary goal of the show is to carry out these plans to get back at that girl. I'm honestly thinking maybe INFP for her even though she's the antagonist of the show, and you don't really see INFPs as the antagonists lol. I also feel that the other main character of this show is mistyped, they have her as an ENFP, but she seems like a strong Fe type to me, like she's super good with people, her whole character is basically centered around helping people out, and who knows, maybe she has high Fi values that allow her to do that, but those are just my opinions on the matter lol.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 25, 2022 22:16:37 GMT -5
@chicken once I get some actual time, I'll put together a slightly more accurate one (there's nothing really wrong with what I made, but I don't like how it implies some types are further along both axes than others, like the ESFJ and ISFJ).
My favorite character is Jayfeather, and I've made no secret that I think he's INTP, like me, lol. Some people say he's INTJ, but those people are wrong differently opinionated than me.
My least favorite character is Flametail, but there's so little info on him that I can't really give him a solid type, so I'm going to substitute in Dovewing and say INFP.
Also Ashfur is considered INFP by a lot of people, so INFP villains do exist. I actually really like INFP villains, mostly because I appreciate the balls the creator must have to make one, lol.
The last female character you mentioned sounds like an ENFJ, but not knowing what the show is or who the character is, I can't really help much
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Post by Chicken on Jan 27, 2022 19:13:46 GMT -5
@chicken once I get some actual time, I'll put together a slightly more accurate one (there's nothing really wrong with what I made, but I don't like how it implies some types are further along both axes than others, like the ESFJ and ISFJ). My favorite character is Jayfeather, and I've made no secret that I think he's INTP, like me, lol. Some people say he's INTJ, but those people are wrong differently opinionated than me. My least favorite character is Flametail, but there's so little info on him that I can't really give him a solid type, so I'm going to substitute in Dovewing and say INFP. Also Ashfur is considered INFP by a lot of people, so INFP villains do exist. I actually really like INFP villains, mostly because I appreciate the balls the creator must have to make one, lol. The last female character you mentioned sounds like an ENFJ, but not knowing what the show is or who the character is, I can't really help much Sorry it took so long to respond, I was going to, but then I forgot. Yeah, I remember you telling me about Jayfeather lol, I really liked your reasonings about it. That's true lol, INFP villains are even more rare than dominant Fe villains, because you have ENFJs who are the stereotypical cult leaders, and ESFJs who are like portrayed as the queen bees, also ISFJs who seem caring, but they will poison your food or something. I don't really seen ENFPs as being a villain, but maybe there are some, like maybe someone who is super chaotic just for the heck of it or something. I can't really think of any ISFP villains either, but I think an ISFP could have the potential to be dangerous. The show is called Malory Towers and the character is named Darrell Rivers, I know, it is a show for kids but I was looking for something to watch, and I couldn't make up my mind about what I wanted to watch, so I decided to generate a random number, and whichever number it landed on, I would count the shows on the screen until I reached that number, and that's the one I'd watch, and it happened to land on that show, and it turned out to actually be pretty interesting. Did you see on the personality database site where Flamepaw and Frostpaw are both typed as ISFJs? Like, how? They haven't even done anything yet. I hope they're not the same type, I want all three characters to be completely different. Ooh like one can be Ti-Fe/Ne-Si, another can be Te-Fi/Se-Ni, another can be Fe-Ti/Si-Ni, or another combination, the possibilities are...well, not endless, but there's a lot rather than making 2/3 the same personality type. I also know it's not a big deal, and that people's perceptions are different, like there might be people who end up seeing a character as an ISTJ and other people who might see them as an ENFP.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 27, 2022 21:40:49 GMT -5
Chicken I need to leave in .4 seconds, so I'll get back to you in a bit, but just wanted to say Flamepaw and Frostpaw are likely listed ISFJ because that's the most common type. If you don't know someone's type, you usually default to ISFJ Edit: Okay, I'm back. I know CS Joseph talks a lot about types of archetypal characters, and he uses the Joker as an example a lot. I cannot for the life of me remember the Joker's type though. I think ENTP or ESTP, which are actually both pretty rare villain types. That idea of chaos as a driving motivation for a villain is not rare, exactly, but is much less common than the ENTJ agent of order villain. You might be a bit off with ENFJs. They're like the essential, generic protagonist (16p even calls them "The Protagonist"). They love people, want the best for them, and have strong ethical values, believing in doing "the right thing". I'm not saying you can't have an ENFJ villain, but it would be even more ballsy than an INFP villain, lol. ISFJs are driven by tradition and ritual, and really, really don't like their traditions being challenged, so I would put them as more likely to be cult-y than ENFJs. Two characters with the same type can actually have a pretty interesting dynamic. Like I've typed both Leafpool and Crowfeather as INFP, and they're completely different. As long as they're not carbon-copies of each other, the dynamic can still exist.
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Post by Chicken on Jan 28, 2022 2:53:54 GMT -5
Chicken I need to leave in .4 seconds, so I'll get back to you in a bit, but just wanted to say Flamepaw and Frostpaw are likely listed ISFJ because that's the most common type. If you don't know someone's type, you usually default to ISFJ Edit: Okay, I'm back. I know CS Joseph talks a lot about types of archetypal characters, and he uses the Joker as an example a lot. I cannot for the life of me remember the Joker's type though. I think ENTP or ESTP, which are actually both pretty rare villain types. That idea of chaos as a driving motivation for a villain is not rare, exactly, but is much less common than the ENTJ agent of order villain. You might be a bit off with ENFJs. They're like the essential, generic protagonist (16p even calls them "The Protagonist"). They love people, want the best for them, and have strong ethical values, believing in doing "the right thing". I'm not saying you can't have an ENFJ villain, but it would be even more ballsy than an INFP villain, lol. ISFJs are driven by tradition and ritual, and really, really don't like their traditions being challenged, so I would put them as more likely to be cult-y than ENFJs. Two characters with the same type can actually have a pretty interesting dynamic. Like I've typed both Leafpool and Crowfeather as INFP, and they're completely different. As long as they're not carbon-copies of each other, the dynamic can still exist. Oh that makes sense why they would be listed as that. I'm not off about ENFJs, like I can get looking at their dominant function, but in the case of what I'm talking about, I have some screenshots Sorry if that seemed rude or anything, I just have an inferiority complex about my intelligence. That's a good way to look at things, why do you type them as INFPs?
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 28, 2022 4:34:22 GMT -5
Chicken oh, I was referring to the villain part? Like fictional villains being ENFJs is almost unheard of. As far as real life goes, I'll take your word for it, lol. (And obviously there are bad ENFJs in real life)
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Post by Chicken on Jan 28, 2022 4:38:48 GMT -5
Chicken oh, I was referring to the villain part? Like fictional villains being ENFJs is almost unheard of. As far as real life goes, I'll take your word for it, lol. (And obviously there are bad ENFJs in real life) Ohh I see, I understand now. Though, isn't Regina George and the girlfriend from Get Out typed as ENFJs? I know they're not like major villains, and personality database is wrong, but yeah. I feel like an ENFJ could be a really good villain since they can easily like gauge the feelings of others, it could possibly make it easier for them to manipulate people. You know ESFJs have Fe AND high Si like you were talking about, so maybe they could be like the villain who uses empathy against people or something. Imagine a sweet and shy ENTJ character lol, I wonder if that would be possible? Or even better, a sweet and shy ESTJ! Oh speaking of ENFJs, Tigerheart is listed as an ENFJ on personality database, do you agree with that or not? I honestly don't, but I don't know why.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 28, 2022 18:40:26 GMT -5
Chicken oh, I was referring to the villain part? Like fictional villains being ENFJs is almost unheard of. As far as real life goes, I'll take your word for it, lol. (And obviously there are bad ENFJs in real life) Ohh I see, I understand now. Though, isn't Regina George and the girlfriend from Get Out typed as ENFJs? I know they're not like major villains, and personality database is wrong, but yeah. I feel like an ENFJ could be a really good villain since they can easily like gauge the feelings of others, it could possibly make it easier for them to manipulate people. You know ESFJs have Fe AND high Si like you were talking about, so maybe they could be like the villain who uses empathy against people or something. Imagine a sweet and shy ENTJ character lol, I wonder if that would be possible? Or even better, a sweet and shy ESTJ! Oh speaking of ENFJs, Tigerheart is listed as an ENFJ on personality database, do you agree with that or not? I honestly don't, but I don't know why. I've never seen Get Out, so idk there. It would be cool if that was the case though! It's actually weird if you think about it, because the archetypal protagonist is ENFJ, and the archetypal villain is ENTJ, which are very similar types. Not twin or sister types, but really close. That's actually a pretty fascinating dynamic that I feel isn't explored enough, at least in the media I see (which is admittedly limited). I want to read (or write!) a story with an ENTJ protagonist and ENFJ villain now, lol Tigerheart is inconsistent between Po3/OotS and AVoS-onward, I feel like. But I wouldn't call him an ENFJ in either case. Maybe ENTP (this is based on OotS, since I can't remember anything from AVoS, lol).
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Post by Chicken on Jan 28, 2022 18:44:18 GMT -5
Ohh I see, I understand now. Though, isn't Regina George and the girlfriend from Get Out typed as ENFJs? I know they're not like major villains, and personality database is wrong, but yeah. I feel like an ENFJ could be a really good villain since they can easily like gauge the feelings of others, it could possibly make it easier for them to manipulate people. You know ESFJs have Fe AND high Si like you were talking about, so maybe they could be like the villain who uses empathy against people or something. Imagine a sweet and shy ENTJ character lol, I wonder if that would be possible? Or even better, a sweet and shy ESTJ! Oh speaking of ENFJs, Tigerheart is listed as an ENFJ on personality database, do you agree with that or not? I honestly don't, but I don't know why. I've never seen Get Out, so idk there. It would be cool if that was the case though! It's actually weird if you think about it, because the archetypal protagonist is ENFJ, and the archetypal villain is ENTJ, which are very similar types. Not twin or sister types, but really close. That's actually a pretty fascinating dynamic that I feel isn't explored enough, at least in the media I see (which is admittedly limited). I want to read (or write!) a story with an ENTJ protagonist and ENFJ villain now, lol Tigerheart is inconsistent between Po3/OotS and AVoS-onward, I feel like. But I wouldn't call him an ENFJ in either case. Maybe ENTP (this is based on OotS, since I can't remember anything from AVoS, lol). Oh, it's a pretty good movie, I hated how it ended though. You're right! I never really thought about that, so do I lol, I have an idea, we can both write a story like that, and read each other's stories haha. Do you think people's writings help to determine their type? In AVOS, he was kind of a jerk, he wanted to take the land back from SkyClan that he said they could have, but in Tigerheart's Shadow, you find out that from his perspective, he had a good reason. He had a dream that SkyClan took over his weak clan, and it just ended in disaster for ShadowClan. I think, I'm not 100% sure about the details, but I remember being like, "Ohh okay, I can see why he behaved that way in AVOS now." lol
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 28, 2022 20:15:03 GMT -5
I've never seen Get Out, so idk there. It would be cool if that was the case though! It's actually weird if you think about it, because the archetypal protagonist is ENFJ, and the archetypal villain is ENTJ, which are very similar types. Not twin or sister types, but really close. That's actually a pretty fascinating dynamic that I feel isn't explored enough, at least in the media I see (which is admittedly limited). I want to read (or write!) a story with an ENTJ protagonist and ENFJ villain now, lol Tigerheart is inconsistent between Po3/OotS and AVoS-onward, I feel like. But I wouldn't call him an ENFJ in either case. Maybe ENTP (this is based on OotS, since I can't remember anything from AVoS, lol). Oh, it's a pretty good movie, I hated how it ended though. You're right! I never really thought about that, so do I lol, I have an idea, we can both write a story like that, and read each other's stories haha. Do you think people's writings help to determine their type? In AVOS, he was kind of a jerk, he wanted to take the land back from SkyClan that he said they could have, but in Tigerheart's Shadow, you find out that from his perspective, he had a good reason. He had a dream that SkyClan took over his weak clan, and it just ended in disaster for ShadowClan. I think, I'm not 100% sure about the details, but I remember being like, "Ohh okay, I can see why he behaved that way in AVOS now." lol Imma tentatively call Tigerheart an ENTP then. A bit chaotic and never fully deciding on what he wants to do is classic ENTP (due to Ni opposing). High loyalty and valuing the group due to Fe tertiary... totally willing to lie or cheat to further his group's survival with Fi trickster... it works out, kinda. But I only started thinking about this 20 minutes ago, so I could be wrong, lol.
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Post by Chicken on Jan 28, 2022 22:17:43 GMT -5
Oh, it's a pretty good movie, I hated how it ended though. You're right! I never really thought about that, so do I lol, I have an idea, we can both write a story like that, and read each other's stories haha. Do you think people's writings help to determine their type? In AVOS, he was kind of a jerk, he wanted to take the land back from SkyClan that he said they could have, but in Tigerheart's Shadow, you find out that from his perspective, he had a good reason. He had a dream that SkyClan took over his weak clan, and it just ended in disaster for ShadowClan. I think, I'm not 100% sure about the details, but I remember being like, "Ohh okay, I can see why he behaved that way in AVOS now." lol Imma tentatively call Tigerheart an ENTP then. A bit chaotic and never fully deciding on what he wants to do is classic ENTP (due to Ni opposing). High loyalty and valuing the group due to Fe tertiary... totally willing to lie or cheat to further his group's survival with Fi trickster... it works out, kinda. But I only started thinking about this 20 minutes ago, so I could be wrong, lol. Wow, I really enjoy reading your thoughts on stuff like this, it makes sense to me, even if you did only start thinking about it 20 minutes ago. Which character do you think is the most stereotypical to each time? Like, for example: Dustpelt is the most stereotypical ISTP.
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