|
Post by vectoring34 on Jan 18, 2022 16:24:30 GMT -5
Mudclaw couldn't even handle listening to Crowpaw's advice, he is vain and petty as can be when it comes to his pride.
|
|
|
Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 18, 2022 16:26:44 GMT -5
This. Onestar wanted to prove he didn't need Firestar. Mudclaw already knew he didn't need Firestar. Mudclaw wouldn't have even thought about it, because there was no single need for Mudclaw's Clanmates to doubt him because he was besties with the ThunderClan leader. Onestar's ego was so fragile that he felt like he needed to cowardly attack a Clan that was only ever willing to help them. That wouldn't have happened with Mudclaw, and we know that because he was a prideful cat who knew his own worth. ? i feel like we are not reading the same material, or else interpreting this character in totally opposite ways. in WoC, Mudclaw was easily manipulated by Hawkfrost (who really just appealed to Mudclaw's confirmation bias) into seeing Firestar/ThunderClan as a major threat against WindClan, which sparked Mudclaw's subsequent paranoia (against a clan/cat that had only ever tried to help WindClan, as you say). And in the past, he's been shown to be super aggressive to any cat or clan that he even remotely views as a threat, regardless of if they're on good terms. I'm not sure how one can reconcile this with the idea that Mudclaw wouldn't have even thought about Firestar?
|
|
Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
|
Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Jan 18, 2022 16:30:40 GMT -5
that sneak attack only happened because of onestar's wounded ego, something that wouldnt have happened under mudclaw. gonna have to strongly disagree with you there, chief. Me too. Mudclaw literally lead a so called sneak attack (or rebellion) against his own Clan because of his own wounded ego by not accepting the fact that he got replaced as deputy. Nothing would have stopped him from inflicting such an attack on ThunderClan. Especially with how he got characterized in WoC to have a lot of distrust for Firestar and TC in general. Granted, most of his distrust was initiated by Hawkfrost but still something he already had in mind before getting egged on by him to go even further with it.
|
|
|
Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 18, 2022 16:34:45 GMT -5
also, as several of his scenes indicate, mudclaw isn't exactly known for his impulse control or listening to what other cats have to say.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Jan 18, 2022 16:36:10 GMT -5
I think my favorite thing about these discussions is how people are so adamantly wanting Onestar’s actions and choices as leader to never be excused or justified, all the while they proceed to look at Mudclaw’s attempted murder of his own clanmates, his teaming up in secret with Hawkfrost and promising him deputyship, his attacking of a literal medicine cat apprentice, and his literal leading foxes into the camp to kill innocent cats and say “He’s justified, he didn’t get his rightful leadership because he’s entitled to it, it’s okay if he slaughters his own clanmates, he would have been a wonderful leader with no conflicts with the other clans.”
Like uh…chief, let’s not justify Mudclaw’s actions please, this is a literal attempted and technically succeeded murderer, considering his own supporters died supporting his ego trip. Please, I beg, stop using Onestar’s later leadership and choices to justify Mudclaw’s attempted murder of his own clanmates.
|
|
|
Post by cable on Jan 18, 2022 16:42:54 GMT -5
I think my favorite thing about these discussions is how people are so adamantly wanting Onestar’s actions and choices as leader to never be excused or justified, all the while they proceed to look at Mudclaw’s attempted murder of his own clanmates, his teaming up in secret with Hawkfrost and promising him deputyship, his attacking of a literal medicine cat apprentice, and his literal leading foxes into the camp to kill innocent cats and say “He’s justified, he didn’t get his rightful leadership because he’s entitled to it, it’s okay if he slaughters his own clanmates, he would have been a wonderful leader with no conflicts with the other clans.” Like uh…chief, let’s not justify Mudclaw’s actions please, this is a literal attempted and technically succeeded murderer, considering his own supporters died supporting his ego trip. Please, I beg, stop using Onestar’s later leadership and choices to justify Mudclaw’s attempted murder of his own clanmates. i didnt want to say it because i thought it sounded too idk… confrontational? but its so hard to debate mudclaw in good faith because if you apply the same standards to him that you apply to onestar then theres basically nothing to debate. a lot of it is just ignorning textual examples of his personality and actions or otherwise waving them off with a level of “benefit of the doubt” that onestar would never receive. like genuinely i dont want to be rude its just a little frustrating is all.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Jan 18, 2022 16:45:40 GMT -5
I think my favorite thing about these discussions is how people are so adamantly wanting Onestar’s actions and choices as leader to never be excused or justified, all the while they proceed to look at Mudclaw’s attempted murder of his own clanmates, his teaming up in secret with Hawkfrost and promising him deputyship, his attacking of a literal medicine cat apprentice, and his literal leading foxes into the camp to kill innocent cats and say “He’s justified, he didn’t get his rightful leadership because he’s entitled to it, it’s okay if he slaughters his own clanmates, he would have been a wonderful leader with no conflicts with the other clans.” Like uh…chief, let’s not justify Mudclaw’s actions please, this is a literal attempted and technically succeeded murderer, considering his own supporters died supporting his ego trip. Please, I beg, stop using Onestar’s later leadership and choices to justify Mudclaw’s attempted murder of his own clanmates. i didnt want to say it because i thought it sounded too idk… confrontational? but its so hard to debate mudclaw in good faith because if you apply the same standards to him that you apply to onestar then theres basically nothing to debate. a lot of it is just ignorning textual examples of his personality and actions or otherwise waving them off with a level of “benefit of the doubt” that onestar would never receive. Yep, I see the same. And it’s funny because I appreciate both characters and their roles in the books but m a n I wish people didn’t excuse and justify Mudclaw’s actions based on could have should have would have happened mentality. Like, fandom is not shy to rail on Onestar’s bad choices and dicey leadership, why is it so hard to apply that same refusal of justification or excuses towards Mudclaw as well? It makes the discussion pointless at times.
|
|
|
Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on Jan 18, 2022 16:46:58 GMT -5
This. Onestar wanted to prove he didn't need Firestar. Mudclaw already knew he didn't need Firestar. Mudclaw wouldn't have even thought about it, because there was no single need for Mudclaw's Clanmates to doubt him because he was besties with the ThunderClan leader. Onestar's ego was so fragile that he felt like he needed to cowardly attack a Clan that was only ever willing to help them. That wouldn't have happened with Mudclaw, and we know that because he was a prideful cat who knew his own worth. ? i feel like we are not reading the same material, or else interpreting this character in totally opposite ways. in WoC, Mudclaw was easily manipulated by Hawkfrost (who really just appealed to Mudclaw's confirmation bias) into seeing Firestar/ThunderClan as a major threat against WindClan, which sparked Mudclaw's subsequent paranoia (against a clan/cat that had only ever tried to help WindClan, as you say). And in the past, he's been shown to be super aggressive to any cat or clan that he even remotely views as a threat, regardless of if they're on good terms. I'm not sure how one can reconcile this with the idea that Mudclaw wouldn't have even thought about Firestar? Yeah, except for in Ravenpaw's manga in which he was strangely nice and open towards Ravenpaw and calling him a friend because he used to be ThunderClan. Also, he had a reason to heavily mistrust Firestar. If the whole deputy replacement situation never happened, Mudclaw would have had no reason to mistrust Firestar like he did in WoC. No reason to randomly attack him either.
|
|
|
Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on Jan 18, 2022 16:52:28 GMT -5
I think my favorite thing about these discussions is how people are so adamantly wanting Onestar’s actions and choices as leader to never be excused or justified, all the while they proceed to look at Mudclaw’s attempted murder of his own clanmates, his teaming up in secret with Hawkfrost and promising him deputyship, his attacking of a literal medicine cat apprentice, and his literal leading foxes into the camp to kill innocent cats and say “He’s justified, he didn’t get his rightful leadership because he’s entitled to it, it’s okay if he slaughters his own clanmates, he would have been a wonderful leader with no conflicts with the other clans.” Like uh…chief, let’s not justify Mudclaw’s actions please, this is a literal attempted and technically succeeded murderer, considering his own supporters died supporting his ego trip. Please, I beg, stop using Onestar’s later leadership and choices to justify Mudclaw’s attempted murder of his own clanmates. But we are not excusing Mudclaw's rebellion or plot with Hawkfrost? We are defending his rightfullness to the leadership of WindClan, and we are defending our interpretation of the debate if Mudclaw would have been a good leader.
|
|
|
Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 18, 2022 16:56:14 GMT -5
? i feel like we are not reading the same material, or else interpreting this character in totally opposite ways. in WoC, Mudclaw was easily manipulated by Hawkfrost (who really just appealed to Mudclaw's confirmation bias) into seeing Firestar/ThunderClan as a major threat against WindClan, which sparked Mudclaw's subsequent paranoia (against a clan/cat that had only ever tried to help WindClan, as you say). And in the past, he's been shown to be super aggressive to any cat or clan that he even remotely views as a threat, regardless of if they're on good terms. I'm not sure how one can reconcile this with the idea that Mudclaw wouldn't have even thought about Firestar? Yeah, except for in Ravenpaw's manga in which he was strangely nice and open towards Ravenpaw and calling him a friend because he used to be ThunderClan. Also, he had a reason to heavily mistrust Firestar. If the whole deputy replacement situation never happened, Mudclaw would have had no reason to mistrust Firestar like he did in WoC. No reason to randomly attack him either. Ravenpaw also was never a threat, because he was basically a loner who kept to his farm and held no political power or allegiance that could potentially threaten his clan. I'm not say Mudclaw was a totally despicable character with no redeemable moments -- but also, I don't think one instance of being nice outweighs the ten times he's been an asshole. Except Mudclaw was shown in several scenes of WoC to distrust Firestar before he was stripped of his deputy title, because he thought Firestar meddled in WindClan's business too much*. That's one reason he was so quick to believe Tallstar's change of heart was a plot cooked up by Firestar, and why Mudclaw subsequently believed Hawkfrost so easily. Mudclaw has been shown to have a bias against Firestar. So the suggestion that he wouldn't have let his ego cause problems between the two clans doesn't sit right with me at all. EDIT *Like, dude gets angry at the idea of sharing a border with ThunderClan. He definitely has issues with them prior.
|
|
|
Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 18, 2022 16:59:37 GMT -5
I think my favorite thing about these discussions is how people are so adamantly wanting Onestar’s actions and choices as leader to never be excused or justified, all the while they proceed to look at Mudclaw’s attempted murder of his own clanmates, his teaming up in secret with Hawkfrost and promising him deputyship, his attacking of a literal medicine cat apprentice, and his literal leading foxes into the camp to kill innocent cats and say “He’s justified, he didn’t get his rightful leadership because he’s entitled to it, it’s okay if he slaughters his own clanmates, he would have been a wonderful leader with no conflicts with the other clans.” Like uh…chief, let’s not justify Mudclaw’s actions please, this is a literal attempted and technically succeeded murderer, considering his own supporters died supporting his ego trip. Please, I beg, stop using Onestar’s later leadership and choices to justify Mudclaw’s attempted murder of his own clanmates. But we are not excusing Mudclaw's rebellion or plot with Hawkfrost? We are defending his rightfullness to the leadership of WindClan, and we are defending our interpretation of the debate if Mudclaw would have been a good leader. I think Moonblazer's -- and others' -- point is that Mudclaw's reaction to being denied leadership, and the lengths he went to over this insult, is essential evidence of his character/personality and why he wouldn't have made a good leader.
|
|
|
Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on Jan 18, 2022 17:03:00 GMT -5
Yeah, except for in Ravenpaw's manga in which he was strangely nice and open towards Ravenpaw and calling him a friend because he used to be ThunderClan. Also, he had a reason to heavily mistrust Firestar. If the whole deputy replacement situation never happened, Mudclaw would have had no reason to mistrust Firestar like he did in WoC. No reason to randomly attack him either. Ravenpaw also was never a threat, because he was basically a loner who kept to his farm and held no political power or allegiance that could potentially threaten his clan. I'm not say Mudclaw was a totally despicable character with no redeemable moments -- but also, I don't think one instance of being nice outweighs the ten times he's been an asshole. Except Mudclaw was shown in several scenes of WoC to distrust Firestar before he was stripped of his deputy title, because he thought Firestar meddled in WindClan's business too much. That's one reason he was so quick to believe Tallstar's change of heart was a plot cooked up by Firestar, and why Mudclaw subsequently believed Hawkfrost so easily. Mudclaw has been shown to have a bias against Firestar. So the suggestion that he wouldn't have let his ego cause problems between the two clans doesn't sit right with me at all. Being an asshole doesn't make you a bad leadership figure. Watching Berrykit scream in pain while being trapped in a fox-trap doesn't make Russetfur a bad deputy, just a bad person. And so what if he didn't entirely trust Firestar at the start of WoC? Is that such a bad thing? Blackstar thought Firstar was meddling into the other Clans' business too much. Blackstar didn't start pointless battles with ThunderClan. It's not a bad thing to mistrust someone of another Clan, especially after what Mudclaw and WindClan has gone through with Brokenstar and Crookedstar. I said "like he did in WoC". I didn't imply he wouldn't have mistrusted Firestar at all. Just not as heavily and extremely as in WoC. A bit cautiousness is a good thing.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jan 18, 2022 17:13:37 GMT -5
But we are not excusing Mudclaw's rebellion or plot with Hawkfrost? We are defending his rightfullness to the leadership of WindClan, and we are defending our interpretation of the debate if Mudclaw would have been a good leader. I think Moonblazer's -- and others' -- point is that Mudclaw's reaction to being denied leadership, and the lengths he went to over this insult, is essential evidence of his character/personality and why he wouldn't have made a good leader. But considering how the entire change happened in the first place it's a bit nonsensical for Mudclaw NOT to be suspicious or angry. Especially because of the circumstances, he wasn't the only one that thought it was questionable, and he had enough cats supporting him, both in and out of WindClan that agreed it was shady. However whether they supported him or not during the rebellion is a different matter. Mudclaw had the right to question Firestar and his motives, especially because of how much he was sticking his nose into WindClan business. He wasn't WindClan's leader, but was constantly trying to call the shots, even with stuff that didn't even concern the journey situation. And him being besties with Onewhisker did not help, quite literally it's the only reason why Tallstar even made the switch in the first place, because he believed Onestar and Firestar's friendship would benefit WindClan. Unsurprisingly it didn't. Mudclaw is surface level of aggressive, plenty of characters are in the series, but it's only because of the deputy situation does Mudclaw's paranoia became a thing. It was bad enough that WindClan was already dealing with generational pain from being beaten, slaughtered and driven out by other clans, constantly seen as weak and taken advantage of. Mudclaw was a fiercely loyal cat that wanted to protect his clan, even if it meant fight for what he believed in. But the consequent change of deputy and what he saw as betrayal and conspiracy is what made him spiral mentally into paranoia, it was a cause and effect, not a guarantee. He served as deputy for moons, was trained to become leader, he wasn't perfect, and had flaws, but he was a decent deputy for the most part. Even Tallstar believed so despite the change, the only reason he did the change though was because in his vision of having Thunder/Wind be allies, this wouldn't be possible under Mudclaw. Because Mudclaw has nothing to prove when it comes to ThunderClan like Onestar did, nor did he have any deep ties and friendships to them. Literally if the deputy switch wasn't so suspicious in the first place, I highly doubt half of the things that happened afterward would have happened. I'd legitimately would have been more accepting of the change if not for how scuffed it was, and the same probably would have been said for Mudclaw and his followers. If Tallstar himself had made the change sooner, so Onewhisker would have had proper training, and if Tallstar had given an actual reason and not on his deathbed, then so much could have not been question. I see fans look at Blackstar, and constantly praise him as a character for his leadership skills despite him being undeserving of his position as deputy and leader, murdering innocent cats, and breaking the code. He's even manipulated by Sol but people still regarded him as a "strong" leader. And for clarification, no one is defending Mudclaw's actions. We're not saying, yeah we hoped he killed Onestar with foxes, or killed his clanmates. You can still support a character but disagree with certain things they do, you can still like a character but hate their actions, you can still criticize a character but still believe they could have turned out better. Personally as a Mudclaw supporter my bigger gripe is with how the situation was handled and how unfair it was to Mudclaw as a character, regardless of if he became leader or not.
|
|
|
Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on Jan 18, 2022 17:15:04 GMT -5
But we are not excusing Mudclaw's rebellion or plot with Hawkfrost? We are defending his rightfullness to the leadership of WindClan, and we are defending our interpretation of the debate if Mudclaw would have been a good leader. I think Moonblazer's -- and others' -- point is that Mudclaw's reaction to being denied leadership, and the lengths he went to over this insult, is essential evidence of his character/personality and why he wouldn't have made a good leader. What I don't like about Moonblazer's post is that they directly say that my side of the debate says that we think Mudclaw attacking his Clanmates and attempting to kill Onewhisker was fine. We do not, and we never implied that (and no, I might not be speaking for everyone, but I can assure you that enough people do heavily disagree with his decision to plan an attack on his Clanmates so he could claim leadership again). It's not the fact that he is denied leadership (he had the right to be upset about that for an amount of time of course), but it's the situation. It does seem like Firestar and Onewhisker plotted against him. It doesn't excuse the fact that he led a rebellion, but having a rare situation as an example for what his leadership would have been like just doesn't sit right with me.
|
|
|
Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 18, 2022 17:41:22 GMT -5
Ravenpaw also was never a threat, because he was basically a loner who kept to his farm and held no political power or allegiance that could potentially threaten his clan. I'm not say Mudclaw was a totally despicable character with no redeemable moments -- but also, I don't think one instance of being nice outweighs the ten times he's been an asshole. Except Mudclaw was shown in several scenes of WoC to distrust Firestar before he was stripped of his deputy title, because he thought Firestar meddled in WindClan's business too much. That's one reason he was so quick to believe Tallstar's change of heart was a plot cooked up by Firestar, and why Mudclaw subsequently believed Hawkfrost so easily. Mudclaw has been shown to have a bias against Firestar. So the suggestion that he wouldn't have let his ego cause problems between the two clans doesn't sit right with me at all. Being an asshole doesn't make you a bad leadership figure. Watching Berrykit scream in pain while being trapped in a fox-trap doesn't make Russetfur a bad deputy, just a bad person. And so what if he didn't entirely trust Firestar at the start of WoC? Is that such a bad thing? Blackstar thought Firstar was meddling into the other Clans' business too much. Blackstar didn't start pointless battles with ThunderClan. It's not a bad thing to mistrust someone of another Clan, especially after what Mudclaw and WindClan has gone through with Brokenstar and Crookedstar. I said "like he did in WoC". I didn't imply he wouldn't have mistrusted Firestar at all. Just not as heavily and extremely as in WoC. A bit cautiousness is a good thing. Being an asshole does make you a bad leadership figure if your particular flavor of assholery is picking fights with everyone. I disagreed with the idea that Mudclaw wouldn't have had conflict with ThunderClan based on the paranoia he exhibited in WoC and his tendency to pick fights. You said that's an unfair judgement, because Mudclaw was only so paranoid/heavily distrusted Firestar due to the circumstances surrounding Onewhisker becoming leader, and because he was nice to Ravenpaw once. I pointed out that no, he was paranoid and biased against ThunderClan/Firestar before that, and being nice one time doesn't mean he doesn't pick fights. Now you're saying "so what if he's an asshole", and you've changed the discussion to whether Mudclaw's distrust (which I guess now you admit did exist?) was a healthy amount. We're right back where we started. This argument feels pointless because you seem to move the goalpost of the conversation. I think we're just gonna have to disagree on this. We have wildly different interpretations of Mudclaw's character, and no discussion is going to change either of our minds on this.
|
|
|
Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 18, 2022 17:52:28 GMT -5
But considering how the entire change happened in the first place it's a bit nonsensical for Mudclaw NOT to be suspicious or angry. Especially because of the circumstances, he wasn't the only one that thought it was questionable, and he had enough cats supporting him, both in and out of WindClan that agreed it was shady. However whether they supported him or not during the rebellion is a different matter. I don't have an issue with him being suspicious or angry or challenging Onewhisker's supposed leadership. I take issue with the fact that his solution was resort to violence, spurred on by an enemy deputy's words. I believe this says something prominent about the nature of his character -- to me, he's a Thistleclaw Lite, typically resorting to aggression first and quick to distrust.
|
|
|
Mudclaw
Jan 18, 2022 17:58:50 GMT -5
Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on Jan 18, 2022 17:58:50 GMT -5
Being an asshole doesn't make you a bad leadership figure. Watching Berrykit scream in pain while being trapped in a fox-trap doesn't make Russetfur a bad deputy, just a bad person. And so what if he didn't entirely trust Firestar at the start of WoC? Is that such a bad thing? Blackstar thought Firstar was meddling into the other Clans' business too much. Blackstar didn't start pointless battles with ThunderClan. It's not a bad thing to mistrust someone of another Clan, especially after what Mudclaw and WindClan has gone through with Brokenstar and Crookedstar. I said "like he did in WoC". I didn't imply he wouldn't have mistrusted Firestar at all. Just not as heavily and extremely as in WoC. A bit cautiousness is a good thing. Being an asshole does make you a bad leadership figure if your particular flavor of assholery is picking fights with everyone. I disagreed with the idea that Mudclaw wouldn't have had conflict with ThunderClan based on the paranoia he exhibited in WoC and his tendency to pick fights. You said that's an unfair judgement, because Mudclaw was only so paranoid/heavily distrusted Firestar due to the circumstances surrounding Onewhisker becoming leader, and because he was nice to Ravenpaw once. I pointed out that no, he was paranoid and biased against ThunderClan/Firestar before that, and being nice one time doesn't mean he doesn't pick fights. Now you're saying "so what if he's an asshole", and you've changed the discussion to whether Mudclaw's distrust (which I guess now you admit did exist?) was a healthy amount. We're right back where we started. This argument feels pointless because you seem to move the goalpost of the conversation. I think we're just gonna have to disagree on this. We have wildly different interpretations of Mudclaw's character, and no discussion is going to change either of our minds on this. You realize that me pointing out he was nice to Ravenpaw once was a joke? He had the right to be paranoid. His Clan was driven out was driven out once by ShadowClan and almost driven out another time by both ShadowClan and RiverClan. I never denied the fact that he mistrusted Firestar. I specifically said that the amount of distrust he had of Firestar in WoC was a different situation with a a different context, and it wouldn't have been that extreme if the situation never happened. I may seem to goalpost the conversation because I try to adress all the points you make and defend my take on them. But I guess that's a bad thing? I also never said Mudclaw wouldn't have conflict with ThunderClan, just not the same amount of conflict Onestar had. Onestar had it for a particular reason. His insecurities. Mudclaw doesn't have a reason to attack ThunderClan because he doesn't feel the need to prove that he is loyal to WindClan. That situation wouldn't have taken place. I never said anything about other conflicts.
|
|
|
Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 18, 2022 18:08:12 GMT -5
You realize that me pointing out he was nice to Ravenpaw once was a joke? He had the right to be paranoid. His Clan was driven out was driven out once by ShadowClan and almost driven out another time by both ShadowClan and RiverClan. I never denied the fact that he mistrusted Firestar. I specifically said that the amount of distrust he had of Firestar in WoC was a different situation with a a different context, and it wouldn't have been that extreme if the situation never happened. I may seem to goalpost the conversation because I try to adress all the points you make and defend my take on them. But I guess that's a bad thing? I also never said Mudclaw wouldn't have conflict with ThunderClan, just not the same amount of conflict Onestar had. Onestar had it for a particular reason. His insecurities. Mudclaw doesn't have a reason to attack ThunderClan because he wants to prove that he is loyal to WindClan. That situation wouldn't have taken place. I never said anything about other conflicts. I did not realize that, no. I'm not sure that was very clear. I'm sorry if my post came off as antagonistic, I only meant to convey a frustration with how circular the conversation was feeling to me. It just seemed like every time I countered one argument that you would bring up a different (albeit adjacent) one that wasn't the same one I'd been addressing. I think we were kinda talking past each other. 'Cause I specifically said early on, "I'm not sure how one can reconcile this with the idea that Mudclaw wouldn't have even thought about Firestar?", and you didn't challenge this, so I assumed that is what we were talking about. And when you said "Mudclaw would have had no reason to mistrust Firestar like he did in WoC", I didn't get that you meant how he specifically distrusted Firestar after the deputy scandal, because like i pointed out he distrusted Firestar before that too. So I didn't understand that you were referring to the former, hence my responses being like "???". I do still disagree that Mudclaw would have had less "amount" of conflict with Firestar than Onestar had, because he seems to me a pretty antagonistic character judging by his past appearances. I agree that his reasons wouldn't be the same as Onestar, though.
|
|
|
Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on Jan 18, 2022 18:11:28 GMT -5
You realize that me pointing out he was nice to Ravenpaw once was a joke? He had the right to be paranoid. His Clan was driven out was driven out once by ShadowClan and almost driven out another time by both ShadowClan and RiverClan. I never denied the fact that he mistrusted Firestar. I specifically said that the amount of distrust he had of Firestar in WoC was a different situation with a a different context, and it wouldn't have been that extreme if the situation never happened. I may seem to goalpost the conversation because I try to adress all the points you make and defend my take on them. But I guess that's a bad thing? I also never said Mudclaw wouldn't have conflict with ThunderClan, just not the same amount of conflict Onestar had. Onestar had it for a particular reason. His insecurities. Mudclaw doesn't have a reason to attack ThunderClan because he wants to prove that he is loyal to WindClan. That situation wouldn't have taken place. I never said anything about other conflicts. I did not realize that, no. I'm not sure that was very clear. I'm sorry if my post came off as antagonistic, I only meant to convey a frustration with how circular the conversation was feeling to me. It just seemed like every time I countered one argument that you would bring up a different (albeit adjacent) one that wasn't the same one I'd been addressing. I think we were kinda talking past each other. 'Cause I specifically said early on, "I'm not sure how one can reconcile this with the idea that Mudclaw wouldn't have even thought about Firestar?", and you didn't challenge this, so I assumed that is what we were talking about. And when you said "Mudclaw would have had no reason to mistrust Firestar like he did in WoC", I didn't get that you meant how he specifically distrusted Firestar after the deputy scandal, because like i pointed out he distrusted Firestar before that too. So I didn't understand that you were referring to the former, hence my responses being like "???". It's alright, I can understand the confusion. Let's agree to disagree.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Jan 18, 2022 18:28:33 GMT -5
I think Moonblazer's -- and others' -- point is that Mudclaw's reaction to being denied leadership, and the lengths he went to over this insult, is essential evidence of his character/personality and why he wouldn't have made a good leader. What I don't like about Moonblazer's post is that they directly say that my side of the debate says that we think Mudclaw attacking his Clanmates and attempting to kill Onewhisker was fine. We do not, and we never implied that (and no, I might not be speaking for everyone, but I can assure you that enough people do heavily disagree with his decision to plan an attack on his Clanmates so he could claim leadership again). It's not the fact that he is denied leadership (he had the right to be upset about that for an amount of time of course), but it's the situation. It does seem like Firestar and Onewhisker plotted against him. It doesn't excuse the fact that he led a rebellion, but having a rare situation as an example for what his leadership would have been like just doesn't sit right with me. Then I’m not referring to you. I’m referring to the hardcore Mudclaw stans I keep seeing that do exactly what I said. Because I’ve seen it and it’s aggravating to see his actions being brushed under the rug in this fandom. You may not do it, but others have. I personally cannot see Mudclaw being even remotely better or a good leader in general if he can resort so easily to such violence the second something does not go his way. It doesn’t matter who was chosen, or how that other choice ended up, Mudclaw proved countless times even before he was removed from deputyhood that he was breaking codes, ignoring the advice of his clanmates, leading them into dangerous situations and allowing himself to be swayed like a fool. I also have big issues with Blackstar and dislike his leadership too, so both he and Mudclaw get my ire. I’m not saying Mudclaw has 0 right to be upset about what happened, I would be furious too, but I can tell from his response that the second he was made leader and something didn’t go his way, he’d be capable of some awful things. It’s his flaws and pride and ego that make him an interesting character, but also just as bad, if not worse a leader than Onestar if we’re going by one’s deeds. All I can do is agree to disagree at this point, but I do apologize if you felt my post was directed at you. It wasn’t intended to be.
|
|
|
|
Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 18, 2022 19:07:18 GMT -5
(Grabs Popcorn) Quite entertaining watching 15+ years of fandom ire and resentment be unleashed Can't say I have much ire or resentment about this topic. I just like literary analysis.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Jan 18, 2022 19:13:27 GMT -5
(Grabs Popcorn) Quite entertaining watching 15+ years of fandom ire and resentment be unleashed Can't say I have much ire or resentment about this topic. I just like literary analysis. This. I have no resentment either, I just enjoy debates that are substantial and topics that are straightforward. Not really trying to get some kind of show going on, just expressing my viewpoint.
|
|
|
Post by cable on Jan 18, 2022 19:22:59 GMT -5
tallstar in starclan wondering why he didnt just pick ashfoot
|
|
#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
|
Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jan 18, 2022 19:28:04 GMT -5
Honestly, thinking about how Mudclaw challenged Onewhisker to a duel and was only stopped because of Barkface, I kinda wish they had gone through with it after Tallstar was buried if they couldn't wait to speak with StarClan. At least that way, it would've just been between two cats and not four entire Clans.
|
|
|
Post by vectoring34 on Jan 18, 2022 19:48:03 GMT -5
Honestly, thinking about how Mudclaw challenged Onewhisker to a duel and was only stopped because of Barkface, I kinda wish they had gone through with it after Tallstar was buried if they couldn't wait to speak with StarClan. At least that way, it would've just been between two cats and not four entire Clans. A judicial duel would have been great
|
|
#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
|
Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jan 18, 2022 19:52:16 GMT -5
I think my favorite thing about these discussions is how people are so adamantly wanting Onestar’s actions and choices as leader to never be excused or justified, all the while they proceed to look at Mudclaw’s attempted murder of his own clanmates, his teaming up in secret with Hawkfrost and promising him deputyship, his attacking of a literal medicine cat apprentice, and his literal leading foxes into the camp to kill innocent cats and say “He’s justified, he didn’t get his rightful leadership because he’s entitled to it, it’s okay if he slaughters his own clanmates, he would have been a wonderful leader with no conflicts with the other clans.” Like uh…chief, let’s not justify Mudclaw’s actions please, this is a literal attempted and technically succeeded murderer, considering his own supporters died supporting his ego trip. Please, I beg, stop using Onestar’s later leadership and choices to justify Mudclaw’s attempted murder of his own clanmates. Adding onto this, one thing I don't understand is why Mudclaw having deputy experience should mean anything, as we've seen time and again with this series and even with similar systems in real life that it doesn't. And the entire reason the apprentice rule was created in the first place was so that a potential leader would be comfortable with giving orders; Onewhisker, at the time he was chosen, had already trained two cats (one of whom was unfortunate enough to die young). An apprentice is different from leading an entire Clan, but you can't say he was completely oblivious, either. And really, the worst thing he does prior to getting his nine lives is give away territory to ThunderClan. Whether he should've done this is a matter of debate, but he wasn't grossly incompetent, either. And yes, what Onestar does later should really have no bearing on what Mudclaw did. Unless it gets revealed that the rebellion deeply affected him more than what the main books led on, Mudclaw really has nothing to do with how Onestar acted and no one could've known how the latter would've turned out. And even if he does, both cats are still in charge of their own actions.
|
|
|
Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 18, 2022 21:41:44 GMT -5
And really, the worst thing he does prior to getting his nine lives is give away territory to ThunderClan. Whether he should've done this is a matter of debate, but he wasn't grossly incompetent, either. did i imagine it, or didnt some character explain in-universe why that was actually a smart idea? something about making windclan look generous/benevolent and strong because they could do without that land. i could be confusing it with a different scene, though.
|
|
#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
|
Mudclaw
Jan 18, 2022 22:52:50 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jan 18, 2022 22:52:50 GMT -5
And really, the worst thing he does prior to getting his nine lives is give away territory to ThunderClan. Whether he should've done this is a matter of debate, but he wasn't grossly incompetent, either. did i imagine it, or didnt some character explain in-universe why that was actually a smart idea? something about making windclan look generous/benevolent and strong because they could do without that land. i could be confusing it with a different scene, though. This is the closest thing I can find to it. Firestar later turns it down, though.
|
|
|
Mudclaw
Jan 18, 2022 23:05:35 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 18, 2022 23:05:35 GMT -5
hmm, i guess im thinking of something else. i could have sworn Onestar whispered something like “thanks firestar” after Firestar turned down some public offer or another.
|
|