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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 17, 2022 17:12:51 GMT -5
Through the series, the level of knowledge and power that StarClan possesses has changed dramatically. In TPB, it's implied that the spirit ancestors are only vaguely aware of what is happening to the living, and they possess some sense for what is coming next that they occasionally use to warn their descendants. But as the arcs progress, StarClan seems to become more and more omniscient and omnipotent: prophecies getting less vague, spirits indicate fairly clear knowledge of recent events in the living world, and the communication barrier between StarClan and living cats seems to dissolve (e.g. TPB notes that StarClan communicating through anyone besides the medicine cats is rare, which makes Firestar's connection to them special; books written later show this as being much more common).
What are your thoughts on this?
Personally, I always interpreted StarClan in TPB/TNP as having a limited, delicate, somewhat unreliable connection to the living world, and so when they do try to communicate, their message is somewhat obscured/hazy, which is why they had to use omens and vague prophecies. And the Moonstone was the only reliable way to get more clear communication with them. I guess you could argue that StarClan's barrier from the living dissolving is part of evolving story. But to me it's clearly a consistency issue, because more recent books set in the past (like SEs) act like this barrier never really existed.
There's also the issue of earlier arcs (i think PO3?) establishing that older spirits fade away completely after a long time. But then in later arcs we see really old spirits like Gray Wing, Moth Wing, and Broken Shadow.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Jan 17, 2022 17:29:03 GMT -5
I definitely prefer the more distant version of StarClan from TPB to how meddling they have become these days. But I'm actually glad that the fading away part is no longer canon because it was just sad to even think about.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 17, 2022 17:29:36 GMT -5
I have a lot of thoughts, but I'm not really in the headspace to write a dissertation on cat theology right now.
I actually got the opposite impression as you reading TPB vs the later arcs. I always thought TPB portrayed StarClan as all-knowing, but hesitant to communicate. Whereas Po3 onward presents them as VERY willing to communicate, but can't find their tails with all four paws and a road map.
Cats having a "special" connection with StarClan is actually pretty consistent. Readers forget that Jayfeather is a REALLY overused character, so we see StarClan way more often than we should. Brambleclaw, Squirrelflight, Lionblaze, Hollyleaf, Dovewing, Ivypool, Twigbranch, Violetshine, and most notably the TBC protagonists do NOT have connections with StarClan outside some fringe occurrences. We just saw through Jayfeather's eyes constantly, so we gained his opinions and perspectives on StarClan, even though every other cat has a wildly different experience with them than him.
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jan 17, 2022 17:32:24 GMT -5
Considering some of the more recent books (specifically SL) clearly show StarClan being able to see the future several years in advance, I would've preferred it if it had just stayed vague. It's less frustrating that way.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 17, 2022 18:08:56 GMT -5
I have a lot of thoughts, but I'm not really in the headspace to write a dissertation on cat theology right now. I actually got the opposite impression as you reading TPB vs the later arcs. I always thought TPB portrayed StarClan as all-knowing, but hesitant to communicate. Whereas Po3 onward presents them as VERY willing to communicate, but can't find their tails with all four paws and a road map. Cats having a "special" connection with StarClan is actually pretty consistent. Readers forget that Jayfeather is a REALLY overused character, so we see StarClan way more often than we should. Brambleclaw, Squirrelflight, Lionblaze, Hollyleaf, Dovewing, Ivypool, Twigbranch, Violetshine, and most notably the TBC protagonists do NOT have connections with StarClan outside some fringe occurrences. We just saw through Jayfeather's eyes constantly, so we gained his opinions and perspectives on StarClan, even though every other cat has a wildly different experience with them than him. hmm, maybe i didn't explain clearly. i do think StarClan knows a lot, but that details sometimes get lost along the way. thats why they had to send TNP cats to Midnight, and why even they didnt know who the Fourth Cat in OOTS was. i think it could also be a mix of hesitancy to communicate and being unable to at times. in TPB, it's said that Fireheart having regular dreams and visits from StarClan spirits is pretty uncommon, and even Bluestar has to go all the way to Moonstone in order to talk to them. so i guess starclan visits to regular warriors might be dismissed as fringe occurrences, but it's already different from what was previously suggested. i know it makes sense for protagonists like the Three bc they're ~special~, but it's odd that even not-special characters like Crowfeather get visits from their dead moms.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 17, 2022 18:22:57 GMT -5
I have a lot of thoughts, but I'm not really in the headspace to write a dissertation on cat theology right now. I actually got the opposite impression as you reading TPB vs the later arcs. I always thought TPB portrayed StarClan as all-knowing, but hesitant to communicate. Whereas Po3 onward presents them as VERY willing to communicate, but can't find their tails with all four paws and a road map. Cats having a "special" connection with StarClan is actually pretty consistent. Readers forget that Jayfeather is a REALLY overused character, so we see StarClan way more often than we should. Brambleclaw, Squirrelflight, Lionblaze, Hollyleaf, Dovewing, Ivypool, Twigbranch, Violetshine, and most notably the TBC protagonists do NOT have connections with StarClan outside some fringe occurrences. We just saw through Jayfeather's eyes constantly, so we gained his opinions and perspectives on StarClan, even though every other cat has a wildly different experience with them than him. hmm, maybe i didn't explain clearly. i do think StarClan knows a lot, but that details sometimes get lost along the way. thats why they had to send TNP cats to Midnight, and why even they didnt know who the Fourth Cat in OOTS was. i think it could also be a mix of hesitancy to communicate and being unable to at times. in TPB, it's said that Fireheart having regular dreams and visits from StarClan spirits is pretty uncommon, and even Bluestar has to go all the way to Moonstone in order to talk to them. so i guess starclan visits to regular warriors might be dismissed as fringe occurrences, but it's already different from what was previously suggested. i know it makes sense for protagonists like the Three bc they're ~special~, but it's odd that even not-special characters like Crowfeather get visits from their dead moms. I actually wasn't considering the side books at all, RIP. I was just talking main series I would consider most of the StarClan visions in the main series fringe occurrences. Brambleclaw doesn't talk to StarClan outside of the Midnight journey directly, Squirrelflight only sees them when discussing her sister's pregnancy which delivers two of the three saviors of the universe (or something), Hollyleaf and Ivypool never see them at all, Lionblaze only sees them when Jayfeather is present and ditto for Dovewing outside of one dream that everyone forgot about immediately. So in 4 arcs we have *one* occurrence of StarClan just showing up to a normal warrior that isn't Firestar for a non-world-threatening situation. I think that's acceptably low for it to still be as special as TPB implied, given that in TPB, the world wasn't being threatened every other season. But yeah, side books are a no-go for me, as I can never remember what happens in them, sorry
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Jan 17, 2022 20:04:24 GMT -5
I prefer StarClan staying vague because it seems like a cooler and mysterious concept that way. I just like the idea of some mysterious, vague, all-powerful being of cats up there.
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Post by halogen on Jan 17, 2022 22:19:40 GMT -5
hmm, maybe i didn't explain clearly. i do think StarClan knows a lot, but that details sometimes get lost along the way. thats why they had to send TNP cats to Midnight, and why even they didnt know who the Fourth Cat in OOTS was. i think it could also be a mix of hesitancy to communicate and being unable to at times. in TPB, it's said that Fireheart having regular dreams and visits from StarClan spirits is pretty uncommon, and even Bluestar has to go all the way to Moonstone in order to talk to them. so i guess starclan visits to regular warriors might be dismissed as fringe occurrences, but it's already different from what was previously suggested. i know it makes sense for protagonists like the Three bc they're ~special~, but it's odd that even not-special characters like Crowfeather get visits from their dead moms. I actually wasn't considering the side books at all, RIP. I was just talking main series I would consider most of the StarClan visions in the main series fringe occurrences. Brambleclaw doesn't talk to StarClan outside of the Midnight journey directly, Squirrelflight only sees them when discussing her sister's pregnancy which delivers two of the three saviors of the universe (or something), Hollyleaf and Ivypool never see them at all, Lionblaze only sees them when Jayfeather is present and ditto for Dovewing outside of one dream that everyone forgot about immediately. So in 4 arcs we have *one* occurrence of StarClan just showing up to a normal warrior that isn't Firestar for a non-world-threatening situation. I think that's acceptably low for it to still be as special as TPB implied, given that in TPB, the world wasn't being threatened every other season. But yeah, side books are a no-go for me, as I can never remember what happens in them, sorry There's also incidents like Stormfur (regular warrior who's not part of a prophecy) getting a dream from Silverstream in Moonrise, and a bunch of StarClan cats showing up to Blackstar in Long Shadows to tell him to believe in them again (which raises the question of why they can't just show up all the time regularly, why they didn't do it earlier, and why can't they do that for many cat who is not believing in StarClan).
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 17, 2022 23:11:14 GMT -5
I actually wasn't considering the side books at all, RIP. I was just talking main series I would consider most of the StarClan visions in the main series fringe occurrences. Brambleclaw doesn't talk to StarClan outside of the Midnight journey directly, Squirrelflight only sees them when discussing her sister's pregnancy which delivers two of the three saviors of the universe (or something), Hollyleaf and Ivypool never see them at all, Lionblaze only sees them when Jayfeather is present and ditto for Dovewing outside of one dream that everyone forgot about immediately. So in 4 arcs we have *one* occurrence of StarClan just showing up to a normal warrior that isn't Firestar for a non-world-threatening situation. I think that's acceptably low for it to still be as special as TPB implied, given that in TPB, the world wasn't being threatened every other season. But yeah, side books are a no-go for me, as I can never remember what happens in them, sorry There's also incidents like Stormfur (regular warrior who's not part of a prophecy) getting a dream from Silverstream in Moonrise, and a bunch of StarClan cats showing up to Blackstar in Long Shadows to tell him to believe in them again (which raises the question of why they can't just show up all the time regularly, why they didn't do it earlier, and why can't they do that for many cat who is not believing in StarClan). I don't remember the Stormfur/Silverstream thing, but that could be me being dumb. As for Blackstar, StarClan had to specifically ask Jaypaw to be present for them to appear, so that seems to be more hijacking Jaypaw's connection rather than Blackstar having a strong one himself. It's not explained at all though, so it's up to interpretation.
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Post by tema on Jan 18, 2022 3:45:44 GMT -5
I actually got the opposite impression as you reading TPB vs the later arcs. I always thought TPB portrayed StarClan as all-knowing, but hesitant to communicate. Whereas Po3 onward presents them as VERY willing to communicate, but can't find their tails with all four paws and a road map. This is why I don't like them from a storytelling perspective. The relationship between how present they are verses how prevalent they are must be inverse, otherwise StarClan can solve any problem within the story. Their overuse withthe Power of Three and the escalation of stakes regarding the afterlife skewed things a little too far in the "prevalent" direction imo.
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