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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2022 19:10:00 GMT -5
Many have commented on the failure of Warriors in recent books to flesh out the background characters in personality and storylines. Re-reading the series, I think I know when this starts to happen: Eclipse.
Eclipse is the first book that Hollypaw and Lionpaw know about the power of three prophecy, and their main character syndrome skyrockets accordingly. They constantly talk about how they feel isolated from their Clanmates because of their special powers. This isolation leads them to stop having close relationships with every cat other than themselves and a few other cats. Additionally, they (especially Jaypaw) adopt an attitude that nothing matters except for the prophecy. They brush off or ignore everyday Clan drama as unimportant, and the background storylines suffer because of it.
Of course, there is still some background character storylines and development, especially with Cinderpaw. However, I think Eclipse is the book where this trend starts and it increases, more or less, through the rest of PoT and OotS.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jan 9, 2022 19:53:47 GMT -5
I genuinely think a lot of the background characters being important is rose colored glasses, but jokes aside, I'd argue that the moment you get books with multiple perspectives, it's going to by necessity cut down on other characters.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2022 20:26:01 GMT -5
I genuinely think a lot of the background characters being important is rose colored glasses, but jokes aside, I'd argue that the moment you get books with multiple perspectives, it's going to by necessity cut down on other characters. I don't think they were every really important, but they were more interesting. Every ThunderClan cat in Into the Wild had an identifiable personality and motivations. Part of it might be because there were fewer of them. Your point about multiple perspectives is a good one, I hadn't thought of that.
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Post by Katanaheart on Jan 9, 2022 20:31:07 GMT -5
I may be wrong but I believe they first learned about it near the end of Outcast. Eclipse was likely when it became more centered for the remaining siblings.
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Post by aether on Jan 9, 2022 20:31:21 GMT -5
Yeah, that checks out.
I agree: background characters aren't important (especially to the story) however when the authors continually add more and more of them it would be interesting and fun to learn more about them. Majority of the time when I watch a show or read a book the background character is my favourite because they often have less responsibility and have a more definite personality as they aren't restricted by plot.
And, again, with SO MANY of them it would be cool to learn about them! Especially as sometimes these books have dry periods during the arcs (understandable when each arc has 6 books) so to learn more about other cats would bring back some of the things I love most about warriors: the CLANS.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Jan 9, 2022 21:11:50 GMT -5
I may be wrong but I believe they first learned about it near the end of Outcast. Eclipse was likely when it became more centered for the remaining siblings. Outcast actually ends on a cliffhanger were Jaypaw is about to reveal the prophecy to Hollypaw and Lionpaw.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jan 9, 2022 21:30:42 GMT -5
Save for a few exceptions, I never thought the books did a good job at fleshing out the background characters even in the first arc. I mean, what's there to say about, for instance, Frostfur or Brindleface besides them being generically nice mothers? Brindleface's death is more memorable than when she was alive, so when I see statements like this, I get genuinely confused.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2022 22:14:54 GMT -5
ooh, this is a cool observation! you're right that things felt a bit different after the three decided to isolate themselves. even though this started to come into effect in power of three, i feel like avos is where a lot of the fandom really lost interest in the background characters. and that makes me curious - are the older background characters more beloved because of nostalgia, or did they just tend to pop up more often within the story? Since I'm doing a re-read, I was able to look the first arc to see if it is really better than the others or if that's just nostalgia. I genuinely think that the first arc characters were better characterized, perhaps because Firepaw has to learn how to navigate Clan life in order to be accepted. Here are my impressions of the background characters in the first couple of books: Darkstripe is slimy, Longtail is aggressive and arrogant, Dustpaw is jealous and headstrong but loyal, Sandpaw is feisty and proud, Runningwind is a bit impatient and curt but hardworking, Mousefur is not afraid to voice her opinions and challenge decisions she feels are not right, Goldenflower is loving and willing to call Firestar out on his bias against Bramblekit, Whitestorm is wise and caring, Willowpelt is a good mother but prefers being a warrior, Speckletail is stubborn and overprotective, Patchpelt is kind and good-natured, etc, etc. Additionally, Darkstripe, Longtail, Goldenflower, Speckletail, Swiftpaw, Brightheart, etc. all get at least some time in the story where their problems and actions are a focus of the plot. However, in the later arcs it feels more like the background characters are there to showcase something specific about the protagonist or the protagonist's problems, not to be there in their own right with their own legitimate struggles. Most cats kind of go through the same characterization process: as kits and apprentices they're rambunctious and always talk about how awesome they are going to be, and as warriors they just kind of exist and occasionally spout a group-think opinion that often goes against what the main character wants or knows to be true. If they do display any individual character trait, it is often haphazard and does not stay consistent throughout the books. Obviously, there are exceptions such as Briarlight, but this is the overall trend I have observed. It gets a little better in AVoS and TBC, but there's too many of them to get to know, such as Eaglewing.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 9, 2022 22:57:13 GMT -5
First book of AVoS I'd say. I actually think Po3 and OotS have the best background characterization (at least as far as ThunderClan is concerned). TPB isn't fantastic with background characterization imo; it's much better than AVoS and TBC, but not great.
The thing about Po3 and OotS is that there's distinct evidence of separate personalities for each character. I can say literally any cat from TC in the Po3-OotS era, and you can say something about their personality and/or actions. Foxleap? Fun-loving jokester. Rosepetal? Had a thing for Foxleap and encouraged Dovewing to get with Bumblestripe. Blossomfall? Had a whole side plot. You read through the Allegiances and you have at least some idea of what each of those cats are like. That's not the case in any of the other arcs (though it's been a hot minute since I've read TPB).
As far as side plots go, I guess you're right? But I don't think a background character has to have an entire side plot to be interesting. It's just interesting to see their personalities and genuine reactions be varied and unique, and not completely absent like in AVoS and TBC.
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Post by tema on Jan 10, 2022 2:29:00 GMT -5
Nobody going to talk about my man Thornclaw?
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Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on Jan 10, 2022 4:11:27 GMT -5
Probably The Apprentices Quest.
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Post by Twilight Sparkle on Jan 10, 2022 6:01:32 GMT -5
It was AVoS where background characters literally just became names in the allegiances. Even if Warriors never had the best background characterization, there were more than just names until AVoS and TBC.
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Post by Darkfang ☾ on Jan 10, 2022 13:45:09 GMT -5
i’ve just re-read the entire warriors series and was paying careful attention to background characters and the apprentice quest was when they stopped giving personalities to background characters. so many thunderclan characters don’t even get mentioned in avos! does anyone know if this aligns with when the editorial team changed?
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jan 10, 2022 13:52:38 GMT -5
it's not even that hard to give background cats SOME kind of personality or trait. if u show a background cat trying hard at fixing a den wall, or if they're mentioned arguing with another cat, or if u see a group of background cats and one of them is sitting away from the group, etc. it can say various degrees of things about them, but we hardly get that for EVERY single background cat. we only get snippets of certain ones or the same ones over and over...
power of three and maybe omen of the stars, background cats still had a little bit of something, but after that, it's completely down hill and no one gets anything unless they're directly involved in the plot, or are related to cats who ARE inside the plot (like protag kin members get generic af personalities like "nice sibling" or "aggressive sibling" etc. it's so boring).
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Post by *•.¸♡𝘥𝘢𝘸𝘯𝘳𝘰𝘴𝘦♡¸.•* on Jan 10, 2022 13:58:30 GMT -5
I think it was when they started giving every background character a name, you just automatically expect them to have a personality. Like, in Into the Wild, there was a random background queen in ThunderClan who never got a name, while the more important queens did (this was also from the perspective of a cat that had never lived in the Clans before). I've never been too invested in background characters, but when they have a personality that's a bonus. Background characters start piling up and it's going to be hard to make them all unique, interesting characters. There are like three cats in RiverClan that actually have a personality right now.
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Post by thewinterblaze on Jan 10, 2022 22:05:06 GMT -5
God, AVoS was a disaster for background characters. We've got cats like Plumstone and Leafshade with 1 speaking line per series, and this was in ThunderClan, the "main" clan.
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Non-binary
flipwish
when do we get more hairless warrior cats
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Post by flipwish on Jan 11, 2022 0:41:09 GMT -5
Ooh I was gonna make a joke-y "they never got uninteresting if your standards are low enough/if you're THAT uninvested in the actual protags/whatever" but man. Even I forgot who Leafshade and Lilyheart were for a minute recently and that's saying something because I like cats like Whitetail (the guidebook one). Dang
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 11, 2022 10:51:54 GMT -5
Definitely AVoS. The main characters stopped interacting with their peerage as much and only formed relationships with cats immediately relevant to the story. Especially when they are young (i.e. apprentices). The result is when those characters grow up, there's no personal touchstone for their characterization. And then when they have kits of their own, their offspring seem completely irrelevant blobs whose names you can never remember.
For example, when the Three were young, they interacted with their fellow apprentices often enough that the reader can piece together their personalities (not all, but many). Or they at the very least have a real presence in the story because of these frequent interactions. Honeyfern, Poppyfrost, Berrynose, Cinderheart, Icecloud, Foxleap, Hazeltail, and Mousewhisker all either influenced the story in some way or had a distinct presence. And these are all the young cats that trained adjacent to the three. Even Jayfeather's interactions with Willowshine and Kestrelflight cemented them as "real" characters.
Then when OOTS comes along, even though some of those characters fade to the background, the reader already has a developed association of them in their head, so they don't need much attention to seem "real" (just like OG side characters). Ivypool and Dovewing have similar peer interplay with Blossomfall, Briarlight, Bumblestripe, Toadstep, and Rosepetal. So even though ThunderClan's number of characters is way bigger than TPB, they still feel familiar to the reader.
AVoS neglected this peer interaction. Alderheart barely interacts with any other young cats besides his sister. Kits born at the end of/after the last arc (Snowbush, Ambermoon, Dewnose, Hollytuft, Fernsong, Sorrelstripe) are already warriors whom we never saw "grow up" and Alderheart never really shares scenes with. Twigbranch only really interacts with her foster siblings Leafshade, Honeyfur, and Larksong for one book in which they just interact like generic kits.
So by the time we get to TBC, there's a lot of background characters we never really "met" (i.e. became familiar with) as previous arcs had. And then all those cats are having kits with each other. So the end effect is a ThunderClan full of background characters whom the reader, through the protagonists, have barely or never interacted with in a memorable way.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Jan 11, 2022 12:31:07 GMT -5
i’ve just re-read the entire warriors series and was paying careful attention to background characters and the apprentice quest was when they stopped giving personalities to background characters. so many thunderclan characters don’t even get mentioned in avos! does anyone know if this aligns with when the editorial team changed? the editorial team change actually took place with DoTC, with the Sun trial being the last book in the Main series that Victoria Holmes worked on, afterwards devoting her time to making the Novellas, and the Ultimate Guide. But we do see some pretty good characterization in DoTC, and see majority of characters having at least some tangible personality. So could be quite possible that the team that worked on DoTC isn’t around anymore either. Given the overly secretive nature of Harpercollins, and the fact that we aren’t ever given any explicit names or any kind of interface with anyone that’s in the story team, and being that the job position is undoubtedly an entry-level/intern level job, it’s pretty probable that Ghostwriters could come in and write for 1-2 years before honing their skills enough, and getting some reputable experience to find something better, and we’d never know since we don’t know them by any other alias besides the “The Story Team” and no doubt wouldn’t announce their departure. The background characters my have arguably never been super relevant to the plot or fully fleshed out, but they always at least were given some substance and personality that made you grow enough attachment to make the world feel like a fully bustling community, and everyone interfaced and socialized with their peers to some degree. Now it does very much feel like just names on an allegiance page. There’s supposed to be some 50 cats in Thunderclan, yet never felt like there was more then 10 or 12 at most even just present for any given scene in TBC and AVoS, makes it feel pretty desolate and empty. And part of the reason the TBC flopped for me, I mean I’m not going to give a shit about what’s happening to the characters, if I’m not privy to their existence and subsequently don’t give a shit about them, because Incidentally there’s never been a reason given that I should care, or would get me emotionally invested with the struggles and conflict that need to be overcome, since I’m not really being showcased anyone being effected by it on a personal level much, and ones we did see were pretty nonplussed and nonchalant most the time, I mean they only felt necessary to send 4 cats into the Dark Forest to face Ashfur in the final conflict, so apparently wasn’t all that serious despite how dangerous of a threat he was supposed to be.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 11, 2022 16:03:46 GMT -5
Partially related to this topic, I miss when ThunderClan had characters which were consistently referred to for specific tasks. Like Cloudtail being a good tracker, Sandstorm as the clan's best hunter, Dustpelt and Brackerfur as the "builders", etc.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Jan 11, 2022 18:17:20 GMT -5
Partially related to this topic, I miss when ThunderClan had characters which were consistently referred to for specific tasks. Like Cloudtail being a good tracker, Sandstorm as the clan's best hunter, Dustpelt and Brackerfur as the "builders", etc. ahhh all those little details that used to make the characters leap off the page, and felt so much more tangible, and real and grounded and memorable that gave everyone a distinctive flair that’s been missing in every Book proceeding AVoS and onwards.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2022 20:15:44 GMT -5
i’ve just re-read the entire warriors series and was paying careful attention to background characters and the apprentice quest was when they stopped giving personalities to background characters. so many thunderclan characters don’t even get mentioned in avos! does anyone know if this aligns with when the editorial team changed? There’s supposed to be some 50 cats in Thunderclan, yet never felt like they was more then 10 or 12 at most even just present for any given scene in TBC and AVoS, makes it feel pretty desolate and empty. And part of the reason the TBC flopped for me, I mean I’m not going to give a shit about what’s happening to the characters, if I’m not privy to their existence and subsequently don’t give a shit about them, because Incidentally there’s never been a reason given that I should care, or would get me emotionally invested with the struggles and conflict that need to be overcome I feel the same way. Even just a few throwaway lines to indicate something about a background character would help me care about them. Even if it is literally just the main character saying: "I like [warrior] because she always keeps her promises" and then showing one example of them doing this. Or saying, "no one could understand why [warrior] chose [other warrior] to be her mate, seeing as they had little in common."
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2022 20:49:32 GMT -5
AVOS #1
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