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Post by Ravenwing on Jan 2, 2022 13:13:56 GMT -5
I've noticed Moonkitti bringing it up more in her videos and I dunno my thoughts on it. I do feel like She-cats are treated like trash at times but I feel like she says that anything that happens relating to a she-cat is misogyny when I don't think that's true. Sometimes yeah maybe, but all the time? Ehh...
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Aroace
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Jan 2, 2022 13:30:57 GMT -5
There is certainly some underlying tones of misogyny going on in certain parts of the Warriors books and I'm curious to see just how long Moonkitti's future video on the matter will be but she does seem to sometimes see things as sexist when it could be discussed if they really are.
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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Jan 2, 2022 13:37:44 GMT -5
There defiantly is some with leaders who are female not being able to have kits, yet male leaders can. Or even Finleap being mad at Twigbranch for not wanting kits(Though for once the Tom is in the wrong for this, Thank goodness). I don't think it's a big thing, or always there. Yet it still is there, sometimes with strange rules or characters just being awful to their partners or friends. I honestly love Moonkitti's talking video's, and if she decides to I will defiantly watch one on misogyny in warriors.
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Post by crowspirit on Jan 2, 2022 13:47:36 GMT -5
There are definitely some tones of misogyny, but I don't think it's as bad as some people make it out to be.
Generally, both toms and she - cats can do the same things, in the end they can all become warriors, medicine - cats, deputy, leader etc. The rule that nursing she - cats can't be appointed deputy is stupid af though, the deputy mostly has to send out patrols and this can be done from the nursery if it's really necessary. Or the leader just chooses a stand - in deputy while the queen is nursing.
I always found it kind of weird that people say a series is misogynistic because there are more male than female characters or the males have more speaking lines. And yes, this is a complaint I've seen in regards to Warriors. Just adding more female characters doesn't do anything if they are as boring as watching paint dry and have no personality. If there are five male main characters and two female, that doesn't matter if the female ones are well developed and good characters. It doesn't need to be 50/50 all the time.
Dawn of the Clans is a bit wonky, since apart from Tall Shadow and Wind Runner, most of the she - cats are only there to be love interests and have little personality, and Bright Stream, Storm and Turtle Tail all got killed off. I think either Tall Shadow or Wind Runner, or maybe even Star Flower should have been a protagonist.
I'd say it's definitely the worst series when it comes to gender equality, but I definitely don't think that the authors did that on purpose.
And a lot of the things people point out were never in the books. “Ferncloud and Daisy are useless since they're only in the nursery.” This was NEVER in the books, the fans made this up, so in this regard it's actually the fandom that's misogynistic and not the authors.
Also, Bristlefrostʼs death wasn't misogynistic at all, she didn't die to make Rootspring sad, she died to save her friend, to take out Ashfur and save all of StarClan AND the Dark Forest. That's as badass as it can get.
So, the series could be better in this regard, but it could also be way worse.
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Aroace
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Jan 2, 2022 13:52:56 GMT -5
There defiantly is some with leaders who are female not being able to have kits, yet male leaders can. Or even Finleap being mad at Twigbranch for not wanting kits(Though for once the Tom is in the wrong for this, Thank goodness). I don't think it's a big thing, or always there. Yet it still is there, sometimes with strange rules or characters just being awful to their partners or friends. I honestly love Moonkitti's talking video's, and if she decides to I will defiantly watch one on misogyny in warriors. She mentioned planning on doing one back in her "Quick Ashfur Addendum" from August of 2021. Although I'm not sure when it will be released on her channel, I did expect she might choose the same date as when her "Bramblestar is Worse" video essay came out October 15th, 2020. But who knows when that will happen now instead.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Jan 2, 2022 13:53:09 GMT -5
I feel both toms and she-cats have been fairly equally hostile and rotten towards the other in this series at times(we can’t just eliminate all the D-bags in the world), I’d say going so far to call any of it misogyny would be stretching it, and this is a series about very religious/political feral cats living in the wilderness which is a very hostile and dangerous, stressful place to survive where inevitably disputes and fights break out, so can’t really expect them to be a bed of roses to the other all the time, but I wouldn’t say that She-cats are oppressed, treated with prejudice and condescension or regularly treated unfairly, nor do they have any rules segregating them or treating them lesser then the toms. And while I know it’s mentioned quite a bit in moonkitti’s videos, she’s pretty biased and not exactly a fair juror, and many of her videos(most notably the Bramblestar’s worse video) is constructed off of the foundation and Heteronormative notion that “Women are incapable of being abusive towards men” which is total bullcrap, but can’t deny that there are plenty of people that think this way. But hey we also have a entire society of misandrist’s depicted via the sister's that’s treated fairly ordinary so I’m not going to say there aren’t isolated incidences of misogyny altogether, since I’m sure they could find a way of hiding it and making it come off as perfectly normal. But as a whole, I don’t think there’s any misogyny in the series.
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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Jan 2, 2022 14:05:01 GMT -5
There defiantly is some with leaders who are female not being able to have kits, yet male leaders can. Or even Finleap being mad at Twigbranch for not wanting kits(Though for once the Tom is in the wrong for this, Thank goodness). I don't think it's a big thing, or always there. Yet it still is there, sometimes with strange rules or characters just being awful to their partners or friends. I honestly love Moonkitti's talking video's, and if she decides to I will defiantly watch one on misogyny in warriors. She mentioned planning on doing one back in her "Quick Ashfur Addendum" from August of 2021. Although I'm not sure when it will be released on her channel, I did expect she might choose the same date as when her "Bramblestar is Worse" video essay came out October 15th, 2020. But who knows when that will happen now instead. Yeah I remember he mentioning something like that in her Ashfur video. She's probably busy with her other Talking Videos right now. I wonder if she maybe forgot about it, or maybe she's still writing on it.
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Aroace
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𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
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Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Jan 2, 2022 14:41:47 GMT -5
She mentioned planning on doing one back in her "Quick Ashfur Addendum" from August of 2021. Although I'm not sure when it will be released on her channel, I did expect she might choose the same date as when her "Bramblestar is Worse" video essay came out October 15th, 2020. But who knows when that will happen now instead. Yeah I remember he mentioning something like that in her Ashfur video. She's probably busy with her other Talking Videos right now. I wonder if she maybe forgot about it, or maybe she's still writing on it. I think she's still working on it but taking her time in gathering up enough text passages to support various points she might make during that video. While I think her method of thoroughly researching things before creating her serious talking content (rather than her comedy skits were things are more loosely based on canon events) is great, I am a bit worried that her interpretation of the text (in particular certain scenes or instances) will then be the only way some fans (of the series and/or her) see things as inherently sexist instead of having their own perspectives/interpretations on them. Of course, there is nothing wrong with agreeing with her interpretation. That being said, I have seen people shut down the opinions of others and their interpretation of the canon text by basically saying Moonkitti's analysis of the canon source material is the only right way to view certain topics. It just worries me. This is not her fault though and simply the result of people/fans only thinking one side of text analysis/interpretation is possible while anything else is not even worth seriously considering. For the record, I will most likely agree with her on a few things (or a lot who knows) regarding that video nonetheless since there is definitely some textual evidence or implications to be found in this series when it comes to misogyny and sexism.
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Post by cloudpaw on Jan 2, 2022 15:23:28 GMT -5
There defiantly is some with leaders who are female not being able to have kits, yet male leaders can. Yeah, female cats have to stay with the kits for a while and are not able to be a clan-leader while a male cat can just go on while their mate raises the kits. I think it is just that simple, although it seems to be unfair.
I wouldn´t expect to much when it comes to that equality-thing. It is a story about animals and it is a really rough environment.
And I think they even improved a bit. In the newe parts most of the main charakters are female. And Fernsong wanted to raise his kits so Ivypool coud be a warrior after a short time.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2022 15:40:29 GMT -5
There's definitely room for improvement, but overall I think that the Warriors universe is pretty solid in terms of gender equality.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2022 15:57:53 GMT -5
whenever someone says there’s no misogyny in the books i wonder to myself if they’ve read dotc yet cause uh. well that arc alone has filled so so many fridges…
dotc is a good arc but the misogyny in it gets really uncomfortable at times, definitely the most pronounced it gets in the series (but it is present in other arcs besides dotc)
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 2, 2022 16:09:07 GMT -5
i dont think so.
i think the problem is that because the authors are female, they favor the character development of female characters more frequently. so they are more often given the spotlight and face more tragedies as a result.
the most common thing i see cited as an example is female leaders in kits. but there’s no in-universe culture that enforces this. whenever a female character has doubted about balancing motherhood and leadership, it’s always been an internally motivated fear. it never comes from other characters impressing some weird sexist ideal on the she-cat in question. there have been multiple female leaders with kits that nobody in canon ever doubts or says something about. characters like leafstar and bluestar doubted themselves and their ability to balance both. that doesnt mean the clan culture is sexist— in fact, side characters encouraged both she-cats that they could do both.
like theres no actual rule that she cats cant have kits as deputy or leader. the fandom just thinks there is. probably because of both bluestar and leafstar’s personal doubts.
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Post by tema on Jan 2, 2022 18:08:36 GMT -5
There's definitely room for improvement, but overall I think that the Warriors universe is pretty solid in terms of gender equality. For real. This is a series that just gave us a female lead destroying an incel with years more fighting experience than her. And that's just the tip of the iceberg for female leads.
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Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on Jan 2, 2022 18:11:58 GMT -5
whenever someone says there’s no misogyny in the books i wonder to myself if they’ve read dotc yet cause uh. well that arc alone has filled so so many fridges… dotc is a good arc but the misogyny in it gets really uncomfortable at times, definitely the most pronounced it gets in the series (but it is present in other arcs besides dotc) Really? I never saw a lot of misogyny in DotC, can you point out a few instances?
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Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on Jan 2, 2022 18:14:15 GMT -5
There's definitely room for improvement, but overall I think that the Warriors universe is pretty solid in terms of gender equality. For real. This is a series that just gave us a female lead destroying an incel with years more fighting experience than her. And that's just the tip of the iceberg for female leads. Not to mention the extreme amount of skill in battle the writers gave Leopardstar in her SE. She won almost every battle in that book.
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Jan 2, 2022 18:22:32 GMT -5
I really do not see any misogyny in Warriors, and even if there was, it's barely prevalent. In fact, from what I've seen, it's not even a systemic or ingrained culture in the Clans. I feel like people are just nitpicking a single event whenever it's brought up.
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Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on Jan 2, 2022 18:24:13 GMT -5
I really do not see any misogyny in Warriors, and even if there was, it's barely prevalent. In fact, from what I've seen, it's not even a systemic or ingrained culture in the Clans. I feel like people are just nitpicking a single event whenever it's brought up. Like people saying Whitewing was misogynistic because she told Dovewing Bumblestripe could be an option as mate so she could keep the Clan going. It's honestly not even bad.
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Post by MadameDelune on Jan 2, 2022 18:24:59 GMT -5
There’s no misogyny going on imo. A female warrior is able to do anything a male warrior can do
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Post by cloudpaw on Jan 2, 2022 18:27:15 GMT -5
I thin somehow WC seems Misogyn because they messed up so much with the female cats. Everytime you have a female main character there is a lot of drama arround them. Like Bluestar with her two kits, Squrrelfight and Leafpool with Leafpools Kits, Dovewing running away with Tigerheart and so on. So a lot of female cats you you could dislike and usually the male part of such a drama story is in another clan.
Good thing is the biggest drama-Queen in the whole forest is male Ashfur.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jan 2, 2022 18:38:31 GMT -5
I thin somehow WC seems Misogyn because they messed up so much with the female cats. Everytime you have a female main character there is a lot of drama arround them. Like Bluestar with her two kits, Squrrelfight and Leafpool with Leafpools Kits, Dovewing running away with Tigerheart and so on. So a lot of female cats you you could dislike and usually the male part of such a drama story is in another clan. Good thing is the biggest drama-Queen in the whole forest is male Ashfur. like someone already said on this thread: the series is biased in favor of female characters. they get more important scenes/roles , and therefore, also the most drama. it goes hand in hand, so i fail to see how that's sexist. more plot for female characters is usually a good thing, isn't it? accepting that drama and bad things is apart of that goes with it.
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Post by cloudpaw on Jan 2, 2022 18:42:41 GMT -5
like someone already said on this thread: the series is biased in favor of female characters. they get more important scenes/roles , and therefore, also the most drama. it goes hand in hand, so i fail to see how that's sexist. more plot for female characters is usually a good thing, isn't it? accepting that drama and bad things is apart of that goes with it. I don´t think its sexist, that´s because I wrote it SEEMS to be that way.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 2, 2022 18:46:35 GMT -5
I thin somehow WC seems Misogyn because they messed up so much with the female cats. Everytime you have a female main character there is a lot of drama arround them. Like Bluestar with her two kits, Squrrelfight and Leafpool with Leafpools Kits, Dovewing running away with Tigerheart and so on. So a lot of female cats you you could dislike and usually the male part of such a drama story is in another clan. Good thing is the biggest drama-Queen in the whole forest is male Ashfur. ? the male protagonists also involve a lot of drama, so i'm not sure what you're talking about. lionblaze had his whole debacle with heatherpaw, then moping over cinderheart, and pursuing DF training for awhile jayfeather is a huge drama queen, constantly stirring up others with his attitude. he also fell in love with a cat who died generations before him. he obsessed over a stick. cant speak much for alderheart bc i did not read AVoS. but from what i understand, he also had his fair share of love drama and general anxiety. rootspring was all like waaah im in loooove but also an outcaaaaast for most of his arc shadowsight spent most of his story having dramatic visions, wallowing over his mistakes, and being manipulated by ashfur brambleclaw spent TNP being a bossy grump constantly mooning over hawkfrost's awesomeness, training in the DF with his bloodthirsty father, and bickering with squirrelflight on and off for all the arcs dont even get me started on clear sky and gray wing's many romantic debacles and love triangles firestar wasnt very dramatic because he was more of an audience stand-in and also canonically oblivious to everything.
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Bisexual
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Jan 2, 2022 19:24:35 GMT -5
shadowsight spent most of his story having dramatic seizures I will assume you mean no harm, but I would highly suggest rephrasing this. A seizure is a seizure, listing his seizures alone as a reason why he's dramatic is way too much.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 2, 2022 19:46:32 GMT -5
Excluding DotC, there's almost no sexism in the main series. It's just not a thing.
The side books are kind of hit or miss though. But for the most part I think the sexism introduced in Bluestar's and Leafstar's story was made up for the story, given that those concerns don't exist in the main series. Like, there's not actually a rule against nursing queens becoming deputy, Leaders are just less likely to pick them because they're busy with children.
I do occasionally find sexism in word of god situations though. Like Vicky punishing Sorreltail and Ferncloud for their "happy relationships" is pretty yikes on its own, but especially so given Brackenfur and Dustpelt are fine. Also (at the risk of parroting Moonkitti, but it is a point I agree with), Frecklewish being in the DF when the other three male characters are not is hard to see as unbiased.
DotC is just awful. I only read the first book and a half and even I was sickened by how the female characters are treated. That is not how we do things here, my guy.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 2, 2022 21:02:37 GMT -5
shadowsight spent most of his story having dramatic seizures I will assume you mean no harm, but I would highly suggest rephrasing this. A seizure is a seizure, listing his seizures alone as a reason why he's dramatic is way too much. i'm sorry about that! i meant to say that his visions were dramatic, not the seizures, but i was not clear about that at all.
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Post by Dark Sun on Jan 2, 2022 22:14:29 GMT -5
Excluding DotC, there's almost no sexism in the main series. It's just not a thing. The side books are kind of hit or miss though. But for the most part I think the sexism introduced in Bluestar's and Leafstar's story was made up for the story, given that those concerns don't exist in the main series. Like, there's not actually a rule against nursing queens becoming deputy, Leaders are just less likely to pick them because they're busy with children. I do occasionally find sexism in word of god situations though. Like Vicky punishing Sorreltail and Ferncloud for their "happy relationships" is pretty yikes on its own, but especially so given Brackenfur and Dustpelt are fine. Also (at the risk of parroting Moonkitti, but it is a point I agree with), Frecklewish being in the DF when the other three male characters are not is hard to see as unbiased. DotC is just awful. I only read the first book and a half and even I was sickened by how the female characters are treated. That is not how we do things here, my guy. I read the series some years back. Actually, to put it more accurately, I powered through it, I crawled through it. The sexism only gets worse past where you left off, and even if all of it was removed, it would not save the series in my opinion. The antagonists were one one note and completely forgettable (Skystar aside), there are far too many subplots and many are dragged on for too long, and some of the books are just filler in general. I believe it to be the weakest subseries, so you definitely did not miss anything. As a silver lining though, at least it's a semi-optional subseries to read.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jan 2, 2022 23:12:33 GMT -5
Excluding DotC, there's almost no sexism in the main series. It's just not a thing. The side books are kind of hit or miss though. But for the most part I think the sexism introduced in Bluestar's and Leafstar's story was made up for the story, given that those concerns don't exist in the main series. Like, there's not actually a rule against nursing queens becoming deputy, Leaders are just less likely to pick them because they're busy with children. I do occasionally find sexism in word of god situations though. Like Vicky punishing Sorreltail and Ferncloud for their "happy relationships" is pretty yikes on its own, but especially so given Brackenfur and Dustpelt are fine. Also (at the risk of parroting Moonkitti, but it is a point I agree with), Frecklewish being in the DF when the other three male characters are not is hard to see as unbiased. DotC is just awful. I only read the first book and a half and even I was sickened by how the female characters are treated. That is not how we do things here, my guy. Dustpelt got killed in the second next book immediately after The Last Hope after falling into a depression over Ferncloud, he was definitely not fine. Brackenfur I'll give you, but Dustpelt seemed no less punished than Ferncloud was in that regard.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 2, 2022 23:46:01 GMT -5
Excluding DotC, there's almost no sexism in the main series. It's just not a thing. The side books are kind of hit or miss though. But for the most part I think the sexism introduced in Bluestar's and Leafstar's story was made up for the story, given that those concerns don't exist in the main series. Like, there's not actually a rule against nursing queens becoming deputy, Leaders are just less likely to pick them because they're busy with children. I do occasionally find sexism in word of god situations though. Like Vicky punishing Sorreltail and Ferncloud for their "happy relationships" is pretty yikes on its own, but especially so given Brackenfur and Dustpelt are fine. Also (at the risk of parroting Moonkitti, but it is a point I agree with), Frecklewish being in the DF when the other three male characters are not is hard to see as unbiased. DotC is just awful. I only read the first book and a half and even I was sickened by how the female characters are treated. That is not how we do things here, my guy. Dustpelt got killed in the second next book immediately after The Last Hope after falling into a depression over Ferncloud, he was definitely not fine. Brackenfur I'll give you, but Dustpelt seemed no less punished than Ferncloud was in that regard. In a side book that came out a couple years later, yes. And I think Vicky's statements about Sorreltail and Ferncloud came before Bramblestar's Storm was released, but I could be wrong. I was more pointing out that Vicky's response to wanting these relationships to have drama was to kill the female characters, which is even more yikes than wanting to "punish" them in the first place. It doesn't seem to have much impact on the writing, and reading through the main books you don't really get a sexism impression, so it's not too bad. I just have a bad taste in my mouth when I read those statements.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Jan 3, 2022 1:24:59 GMT -5
Skypaw13 I don’t say this too come off as insensitive to anyone, mostly posting for informational purposes if there’s anyone that isn’t aware, the reason Vicky Holmes killed off Sorreltail and Ferncloud(Ferncloud Especially) was because of the backlash, and emails she received about Ferncloud basically being nothing but a nursemaid that gave birth to kits and didn’t contribute to her clan by sitting around in the nursery all the time, which also has been said about Daisy to for some weird reason. And in Vicky’s own words she iterated that the community was responsible for her fate, and why she decided to make her die in the Great battle, and go down swinging to defend her clan, to show that she was capable of being more then a nursery queen, so if anything I’d say the community was being misogynistic by basically shaming Ferncloud and denigrating her and being prejudice because she was portrayed as a housewife(which isn’t a disgraceful thing at all, and shouldn’t be talked down upon imo.)
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