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Post by tema on Dec 28, 2021 15:58:52 GMT -5
Is QuietRage a member of the forums?
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Dec 28, 2021 16:03:38 GMT -5
Is QuietRage a member of the forums? No idea. Moonkitti is though.
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Post by tema on Dec 28, 2021 16:07:15 GMT -5
Is QuietRage a member of the forums? No idea. Moonkitti is though. I was made aware of that. It was less about that and more of getting some discussion on "the symptom"/"the problem" independent of Bramblesquilf.
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Post by tema on Dec 28, 2021 17:04:20 GMT -5
I was made aware of that. It was less about that and more of getting some discussion on "the symptom"/"the problem" independent of Bramblesquilf. I see. Have you watched Quiet Rage's video on the matter? Pretty much had to with the thread discussing it so much. While I did have my fair share of criticisms with it (vid should have been sped to 1.25 speed, validating the terrible arguments "Bramblestar is Worse" makes for Squirrelflight's Hope without question and strawmanning people who disagree as 'naive' or in an abusive relationship themselves, misusing "gaslighting" in place of shifting blame (though to be completely honest that's NOT much better), claiming that "pushed" characters are always rejected since we're talking about Squirrelflight, who was "pushed" long before this). There's also a bit where Quiet lambasted Bramblestar for accepting the Kin into ThunderClan and complained that nobody in-universe called him out for it, all in the same video where Quiet Rage complained Bramblestar not immediately heal Sunrise and for blaming Squilf for the resulting split, which made me doubletake from the broken logic, since the Kin's invasion was brought up by the Clan before Bramblestar made his decision as a point against treating the Sisters. Buuuuuuut... The analysis they gave of his, and Squirrelflight's, arc in TNP was kino. Bringing up the E.L. James situation and tackling media awareness and the unhealthy portrayal of love given within was a sleeper gem there. Addressing that a lot of the problem is mostly a side effect of rushed and formulaic writing just begs the question of how many Save the Cat plot points are just lazily checked off (there's a reason I italicized 'wants' and 'needs' earlier). Quiet put in the effort to substantiate the argument that their power imbalance lead to a problematic dynamic, which is the most damning thing that can be said about their relationship (and raises questions of if higher positions should mate at all, which mirrors into the real-world issue of workplace harassment) and needs to be said a lot more than what usually gets discussed on this topic. Everything at around the 42 minute mark and beyond is pure catharsis. So, I liked it. It has its faults, but it's grounded in some really good points with genuine emotion backing it.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Dec 28, 2021 19:08:20 GMT -5
The core fundamental problem with Brambleclaw and Squirrelflight’s relationship has remained unchanged since day 1, which stems from both of them being very prideful, obstinate and quite egotistical at times. And every time they get in a argument, what happens when something hurts the feelings or ego of the other? The other retaliates, for example in SqH, what does Squirrelflight do when Bramblestar expresses he doesn’t want more kits? She responds with” Don’t you love me anymore?”, Emotional manipulation/retaliation, and What’s Bramblestar’s response later? “ is all you care about is having more kits?”. Retaliation, that may have the intended effect of making her feel guilty for wishing to have more kits, which would be subsequent to Squirrelflight trying to make Bramblestar feel guilty for wishing to not have more kits, and questioning whether or not he loved her because of it.
Which Squirrelflight then retaliates with basically distancing herself from him, not talking to him, and sleeping in the warriors den instead together in their shared nest. Which I’m supposing Bramblestar just decides to brood alone like her, instead of confronting the problem, and resolving it.
Then Squirrelflight decides to go behind his back, and consort with Leafstar to go explore the territory beyond their borders without telling him, making Sparkpelt lie to her father about her whereabouts, which is super dishonest, and we all know this is a huge insecurity problem that Bramblestar has had for the entire series with cats being distrustful of him, so it’s yet another retaliation on top of the previous, which has gotta hurt. Which then he retaliates with basically taking her authority as deputy away from her and making her run all ideas by him, and treating her with the same amount of distrust as she has to him. And the petty cycle continues throughout the majority of the book, each trying to one up the other, and make the other concede and admit defeat and that the other was right all along.
Their argument back in TNP follows the exact same trend, and stems from Squirrelflight not trusting Brambleclaw, which they then throw every verbal punch in the book at the other as means of retaliation, and continue to do so until some traumatic event occurs(Ex. The badger attack in twilight, the rockslide in SqH) which in turn jerks them back into reality and makes them realize they were being petty numbskulls, and they quickly makeup and apologize and return to normal. Except without ever actually having a heart-to-heart conversation and finding a solution to resolve the conflict that made them argue to begin with(because clearly communication and resolving conflict is overrated according to HC, and would mean they’d have to brainstorm new ideas for conflict).
Why Squirrelflight’s Hope is much more problematic, at least imo, is because their argument is much more amplified and profound and evident, probably due to both of them already being on edge from the additional strain/stress of it being leaf-bare, tensions rising up amongst the clans, everyone’s hungry and more agitated, Brambleclaw now being leader and juggling political affairs and disputes alongside a troubled Mate that’s having an apparent midlife crisis and is going through an emotionally vulnerable state with feeling unneeded and unimportant etc. compared to when he was just a warrior in TNP, and both their lives was significantly simpler, and had fewer outside factors adding fuel to the flames.
And what’s most problematic, is that the majority of the readers in the targeted audience age range aren’t going to detect or understand the undertones of Squirrelflight and Bramblestar’s relationship, or characters as individuals, and there only source of explanation to clue themselves in to what’s happening are several heavily biased videos that lean in Squirrelflight’s favor, and they’re just gonna cling to that, since their not at the maturity level to fully comprehend the depth of the situation and come to their own conclusions.
Is their behavior, and petty bickering Toxic?? Absolutely. Can it be correlated to abusive behavior? Yes. Does that automatically make either of them inherently abusive individuals? No, it doesn’t. You just got 2 people with similar personalities that don’t take being objected or called wrong very well and inevitably clash because of it.
Personally I think quite a large portion of the fandom spends far too much time assessing and analyzing the situation in order to expose or discover something that’s isn’t truly there, and try to make it sound more complicated and perversive then it really is, when in reality there both just very obstinate individuals, that have a tendency to be Assholes at times, and don’t know how to properly accept being told their wrong, or Handle their emotions in a healthy fashion.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2022 13:35:40 GMT -5
She's a consistently written character that actually has a personality and plays an imperative role in many of the plots in the series. plus having support from the most influential content creators in the fandom certainly don't hurt. and she also cashes in pretty heavily on the sole fact that She's a 'Strong Female Character" which automatically activates the +400% boost effect to her popularity stats. which has been a recurring phenomenon more recently in storytelling across all media, literature/video games/Movies etc. which has resulted in an influx of poorly-written, bland and tasteless, no personality uninteresting, non-compelling paper-cutout female characters with no substance behind them, because they were created for the sole purpose so that the creator can capitalize on the mass marketing, and advertisement opportunities and often times brown-nosed praise they'll receive from having strong female representation, even though the actual character might be the flattest thing imaginable. while this isn't true in Squirrelflight's case as she does have a very distinct, and compelling character, even though she can be very intransigent and obstinate and quite arrogant and selfish at times, it's in the eye of the beholder to determine if those things make her a great or aggravating character or not. And given the imbalance between the amount of male and female protagonists we receive in this series, naturally people are going to gravitate and give praise to the few female characters we do get. whether its warranted or brown-nosed praise is a sticky situation.
Note: I have zero problems with female characters, or female representation, and love any well-written, compelling, intriguing female character based on their own merits equally to any male character. just highlighting the fact that oftentimes Female characters will receive more abundant praise from the fact. even though the character may just be another cardboard-cutout used by the creator as means of apple-polishing the audience. a means of ingratiating them and garnering potentially undeserved praise from a sloppy, lazy egregious method of being predatory and taking advantage of what the consumer wants, without devoting the slightest bit of actual effort to properly represent it in an appropriate or favorable manner. I agree. I don't personally like Squirrelflight, but I respect her a lot as a character. She's consistently written, whereas a lot of warrior characters don't have stable/recognizable personalities.
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Post by cloudpaw on Jan 1, 2022 13:44:11 GMT -5
She is one of the few female main characters in WC the authors didn´t completely ruin.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jan 1, 2022 15:51:05 GMT -5
I suppose it comes down to the fact that she's so controversial. Yes she's a consistent character, but that shouldn't stump her growth, because in the end we just got a character that remained an immature brat that always gets what she wants. It's annoying. I always see people either criticize her, or try to "girl boss" her character, and because she's been around so long, she's the new "cash cow" for the Erins to rank in nostalgia points now Firey boy is dead and all.
Personally, I went from being like/neutral on her, to dislike/hate. Mostly because of her fans being a bit too touchy and even malicious towards people that dislike or oppose her character in some way. Reminds me of the early days with rabid Spottedleaf fans, the only difference is that Squirrel's popularity has lasted 10x longer.
And at this point in the series, she's definitely ruined my likeness for reading the books as well. SqH was one thing, but her stealing the spotlight in TBC was nerve grating.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jan 1, 2022 16:09:24 GMT -5
consistency is nice and all, but since squirrelflight has been a bad character from the beginning, does that really matter if it makes her stagnent? people THINK she's matured, but i so disagree. she's still like her bratty apprentice self.
her entire character, from TNP to the present, has her going about solving things the wrong way. she hasn't learned or grown from that mind set of "only i am right, no one else can say otherwise." that's why i hate her so much. people keep saying how she's matured and changed, and yet to me, she hasn't TRULY changed. she's still self righteous and arrogant about how she goes about doing things. good intentions or not, she's still the same bratty "i'm right! stop telling me im wrong even though im wrong!" over and over and over.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Jan 1, 2022 16:32:32 GMT -5
consistency is nice and all, but since squirrelflight has been a bad character from the beginning, does that really matter if it makes her stagnent? people THINK she's matured, but i so disagree. she's still like her bratty apprentice self. her entire character, from TNP to the present, has her going about solving things the wrong way. she hasn't learned or grown from that mind set of "only i am right, no one else can say otherwise." that's why i hate her so much. people keep saying how she's matured and changed, and yet to me, she hasn't TRULY changed. she's still self righteous and arrogant about how she goes about doing things. good intentions or not, she's still the same bratty "i'm right! stop telling me im wrong even though im wrong!" over and over and over. but Character growth and maturation would positively go against Harpercollins logic of rational reasoning and deduction. Plus if they made her mature and stop being such a stubborn brat all the time, she wouldn’t be getting into arguments with Bramblestar, so who would they have to recycle their “Official Couple Ordeal Syndrome” trope for the hundredth time to ensure plenty of juicy, succulent drama gets captured on screen for all eyes to see??. But in all seriousness, they definitely should retire her from the spotlight permanently, and focus their time and effort on someone new, but alas that’s wishful thinking and isn’t too likely to happen.
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Post by Aqua on Jan 1, 2022 17:19:20 GMT -5
consistency is nice and all, but since squirrelflight has been a bad character from the beginning, does that really matter if it makes her stagnent? people THINK she's matured, but i so disagree. she's still like her bratty apprentice self. her entire character, from TNP to the present, has her going about solving things the wrong way. she hasn't learned or grown from that mind set of "only i am right, no one else can say otherwise." that's why i hate her so much. people keep saying how she's matured and changed, and yet to me, she hasn't TRULY changed. she's still self righteous and arrogant about how she goes about doing things. good intentions or not, she's still the same bratty "i'm right! stop telling me im wrong even though im wrong!" over and over and over. She really hasn't changed. The only thing I actually enjoy reading her about is her relationship with Leafpool. It's sweet that she drops everything for her sister, but she's horrible to everyone else.
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Post by tema on Jan 2, 2022 0:18:18 GMT -5
and What’s Bramblestar’s response later? “ is all you care about is having more kits?”. Retaliation, that may have the intended effect of making her feel guilty for wishing to have more kits, which would be subsequent to Squirrelflight trying to make Bramblestar feel guilty for wishing to not have more kits, and questioning whether or not he loved her because of it. It might be even sillier than that. Within certain structures for the Hero's Journey, one of the initial beats that gets set up in the first act is to have a character make a statement directly challenging the protagonist's want in order to outline to the audience what to expect within the upcoming character arc. It's entirely possible that Bramblestar's dialogue there was not meant to have any deep meaning for it other than for the Erins to check off an item on a list of template story beats, and it ended up making him look inconsiderate for not delivering the beat with any care.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Jan 2, 2022 1:51:23 GMT -5
and What’s Bramblestar’s response later? “ is all you care about is having more kits?”. Retaliation, that may have the intended effect of making her feel guilty for wishing to have more kits, which would be subsequent to Squirrelflight trying to make Bramblestar feel guilty for wishing to not have more kits, and questioning whether or not he loved her because of it. It might be even sillier than that. Within certain structures for the Hero's Journey, one of the initial beats that gets set up in the first act is to have a character make a statement directly challenging the protagonist's want in order to outline to the audience what to expect within the upcoming character arc. It's entirely possible that Bramblestar's dialogue there was not meant to have any deep meaning for it other than for the Erins to check off an item on a list of template story beats, and it ended up making him look inconsiderate for not delivering the beat with any care. it’s a possibility. However, it’s my preference to formulate conclusions derived off information and knowledge of previous character development and reactions to similar situations, and it’s very well known how much of a selfish and petty brat Squirrelflight can be at times, and Bramblestar has some pretty stubborn tendencies as well, and is known to retaliate when he’s undermined or feels offended. And the conversation prior to their arrival to the gathering offers pretty ample structuring for setting up the first act of her character arc, at least to me, and if not than there’s more then enough during the gathering, so would kinda be milking it at that point. Their pattern of behavior is pretty static when it comes to their arguments, Squirrelflight generally makes some type of demand, and when Bramblestar doesn’t immediately jump to give her what she desires or wants, she becomes an emotionally manipulative train wreak of a brat(which was more understandable and tolerable when she was younger back in TNP, but she clearly hasn’t ever been punished for said behavior, so she’s remained spoiled and continues to use said tactics), which is followed by bramblestar usually lashing back or retaliating in some capacity from her trying to make him feel guilty for not granting her her every wish. Now in Squirrelflight’s Hope she’s already from the beginning of the book to be much more hypersensitive to pretty everything he says or emotion he conveys from her midlife crisis, nervous breakdown from not feeling important or that’s so going to leave behind a memorable legacy, which is probably why Bramblestar’s actions and words are written as being far more inconsiderate and cold then usual from her PoV, whether it’s his intention or not. The problem is most of her irrational fears and her hypersensitive perception of him being overly cold and callous is validated as being correct in the narrative, since it wraps rebellious actions in a feathery bow and paints her off as being right all along, which she may have partly been, but there’s no acknowledgment of her horrible methods of going about it, she gets completely justified and is allowed to walk away scot-free without any accountability for undermining her leader, so it’s easy for the reader to just walk away with the impression that he was being an inconsiderate, unreasonable douche without reason or point the whole time, and that he merely wanted to guilt-trip and manipulate her, even though the reasons it’s perceived as such from Squirrelflight’s PoV is because of emotional rollercoast of a wreak she is through the whole book, and her thinking and perception is severely warped by her desires that she isn’t getting immediate satiation too. Her desire to have kits is so strong her mind even constructs a false reality of her being pregnant when she isn’t. Anyway that concludes my rant for now.
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Post by tema on Jan 2, 2022 2:20:13 GMT -5
It might be even sillier than that. Within certain structures for the Hero's Journey, one of the initial beats that gets set up in the first act is to have a character make a statement directly challenging the protagonist's want in order to outline to the audience what to expect within the upcoming character arc. It's entirely possible that Bramblestar's dialogue there was not meant to have any deep meaning for it other than for the Erins to check off an item on a list of template story beats, and it ended up making him look inconsiderate for not delivering the beat with any care. (...) And the conversation prior to their arrival to the gathering offers pretty ample structuring for setting up the first act of her character arc, at least to me, and if not than there’s more then enough during the gathering, so would kinda be milking it at that point. (...) I'm not going to argue with any of your post because it's true, and would also like to add the hilarious tidbit that Squirrelflight isn't even responsible for resolving the conflict in her own book. Rather, I'm trying to point out that the early book follows such a formulaic setup that, once you sit down and examine the book in a meta sense, explains a lot of the terrible characterization since it fills in some of the holes left by nonsensical motivations (such as why the Sisters walked into ShadowClan unprepared for a battle, because Squirrelflight needed to do something good to get the audience to root for her, not because it made sense for the Sisters to be hypocrites about territory), even by Squirrelflight's standards as it asks that the reader just forget any past development she may have underwent. The bit before the gathering does start to set up her arc, but it doesn't actually present a challenge to Squirrelflight's assumptions.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Jan 2, 2022 2:53:16 GMT -5
tema:to be fair the entire book is nonsensical and doesn’t really have much actual objective aside from explaining Leafpool’s death, and given foreshadowing for why no one suspected Bramblestar’s sudden change in behavior and mannerisms earlier on in TBC after being possessed, because we just fallback to “ oohhh he was already being a colossal douche in SqH, no wonder no one suspects anything” and the whole trial system crap to make the whole ashfur plot work to begin with. which basically is constructing a story and plot around false precedences and placebo dilemmas that realistically never should of occurred or been considered a problem in the first place, I agree that SqH is formulaic and that they just needed to give her something good to do to make the audience root for her, while personally, I myself never rooted for her for one second throughout the entire book, and was baffled by most of her behavior, and neither do I think Bramblestar should of been pressured or felt obligated to offer aid and comfort to the sisters when Sunrise(believe that’s her name) was injured, so while it obviously was setup to make us root for Squirrelflight, I never did and found it pretty ridiculous and stupid on her part to be bring hostiles into camp, especially after injuring Leafstar and holding them captive and overall being inhospitable, yet expecting decency and hospitality in return, after insulting the clans society and way of life for simply including toms in their lives. Anyway, I’m not planning on examining or scrutinizing it with a reread anytime soon, since quite frankly there wasn’t hardly much that was enjoyable or memorable about it, except for how stilted and forced down a linear path it was, and how farcical the whole book was, and how it blatantly was trying to reinforce the incredibly weak logic/foundation surrounding the plot of TBC. Edit: and of course she wouldn’t be responsible for resolving the conflict of her own book, that would make far too much sense, and would clearly require far too much brainpower for the ghost editing team whomever their names are to pen into existence. Plus meaningful dialogue and resolution to conflict would take longer to write, thus cutting into quantity of yearly publications and profitability of the series as a whole.
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