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Post by vectoring34 on Nov 29, 2021 16:12:07 GMT -5
Simple question, who's the worst father in the series?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2021 16:14:56 GMT -5
Clear Sky, Raggedstar, Tom, Sandgorse
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Nov 29, 2021 16:19:24 GMT -5
clear sky, hands down.
i still can't wrap my head around clear sky's treatment of thunder. i'll always view it in a bad way...he basically put himself first and selfishly casted his child away due to his own pain. if u ask me, any sane parent would accept the pain and still want to raise their child and be willing to work through it, not completely remove themselves from the responsibility altogether...and the audacity to come back for the kid once the kid was already raised? clear sky was a selfish prick. "oh my brother raised my kid for me, but now that i see how great he turned out, i suddenly want him back." so stupid and selfish! he only wanted to be close once he realized how well he turned out...well, buddy, u could have raised him urself, but that bridge was already burned.
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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Nov 29, 2021 16:28:20 GMT -5
Tom/Clearsky 100%
Both almost got their kits killed for their own dumb desires or reasons
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2021 16:32:12 GMT -5
Oh also Stick. He is such a control freak and literally killed his own daughter because of his own selfishness and need to lord over her like she was kit. What an awful character and I hate how the book glossed over Red's death, wish Dodge or Harley had killed him in HJ
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Nov 29, 2021 16:53:33 GMT -5
in terms of characters who were actually, like, trying to be good fathers and weren't just straight up evil dudes all around, probably raggedstar and onestar. the former absolutely spoiled his son and contributed to his ambitious ego, and the latter straight up abandoned his kit (even though he genuinely thought it was for the best).
oh, and pinestar. although i have sympathy for him because of how conflicted starclan made him feel.
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Post by Chicken on Nov 29, 2021 17:39:28 GMT -5
Nettle from The Kin
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Asexual
#07B04C
star_black.png
Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Nov 29, 2021 18:26:22 GMT -5
Clear Sky. He just really freaking sucks as a father, especially to poor Thunder, and it really horrified me.
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Post by 𝔯𝔞𝔟𝔟𝔦𝔱𝔣𝔯𝔬𝔰𝔱 on Nov 29, 2021 18:45:06 GMT -5
I really like Clear Sky as a character, but he is by far the worst father in the series - mostly to Thunder, but to his other kits as well.
First, he lets Storm leave without even trying to stop her - I know he couldn't force her to stay, and he would've been awful if he had, but he didn't even try, he just let her leave. Because of this, Storm and Thunder's littermates all died.
When Gray Wing brought Thunder to Clear Sky's camp, Clear Sky immediately turned him away because of his bs idea that a strong group can't have weak members. He makes no attempt to bond with his son until Thunder is old enough to fend for himself. Then, he suddenly claims it was all a test to make sure Thunder could survive without Clear Sky - which he wouldn't have been able to do had it not been for Gray Wing. Clear Sky continued to manipulate Thunder while he was living with him, and even after Thunder left Clear Sky continued to be a terrible father (I'm in the middle of re-reading right now, but I believe I remember Clear Sky trying to get Thunder killed in the first battle?).
The fact that Clear Sky was willing to take in the kits of a cat he had just killed, but not his own son really says a lot about him - my guess is that he had a fear of loss after losing Bright Stream, Storm, and his other kits.
Eventually he found a new mate - Thunder's ex. No parent should ever be interested in their child's significant other, and this is just an incredibly gross situation all around.
When Clear Sky becomes mates with Star Flower, he is certainly a better cat, better mate, and better father to their kits. But he is still not a good father. In Moth Flight's Vision, Clear Sky delays sending for other medicine cats after Tiny Branch, his son, is attacked by a fox, simply because he is angry with the other Clans. Because of this (and Wind Runner's initial refusal to send help), Tiny Branch dies.
There are lots of bad fathers in the series - Onestar, Raggedstar, Tom, etc. But there are none worse, in my opinion, than Clear Sky - and that's saying something as someone who genuinely likes Clear Sky.
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Post by cygna on Nov 29, 2021 18:47:29 GMT -5
Clear Sky. I don't care how good he was to Star Flower's kits or Honey Pelt. It doesn't change that he was awful to Thunder time and time again. As his father he very much should have prioritized him over Star Flower and fixed their relationship.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Nov 29, 2021 19:04:49 GMT -5
I really like Clear Sky as a character, but he is by far the worst father in the series - mostly to Thunder, but to his other kits as well. First, he lets Storm leave without even trying to stop her - I know he couldn't force her to stay, and he would've been awful if he had, but he didn't even try, he just let her leave. Because of this, Storm and Thunder's littermates all died. When Gray Wing brought Thunder to Clear Sky's camp, Clear Sky immediately turned him away because of his bs idea that a strong group can't have weak members. He makes no attempt to bond with his son until Thunder is old enough to fend for himself. Then, he suddenly claims it was all a test to make sure Thunder could survive without Clear Sky - which he wouldn't have been able to do had it not been for Gray Wing. Clear Sky continued to manipulate Thunder while he was living with him, and even after Thunder left Clear Sky continued to be a terrible father (I'm in the middle of re-reading right now, but I believe I remember Clear Sky trying to get Thunder killed in the first battle?). The fact that Clear Sky was willing to take in the kits of a cat he had just killed, but not his own son really says a lot about him - my guess is that he had a fear of loss after losing Bright Stream, Storm, and his other kits. Eventually he found a new mate - Thunder's ex. No parent should ever be interested in their child's significant other, and this is just an incredibly gross situation all around. When Clear Sky becomes mates with Star Flower, he is certainly a better cat, better mate, and better father to their kits. But he is still not a good father. In Moth Flight's Vision, Clear Sky delays sending for other medicine cats after Tiny Branch, his son, is attacked by a fox, simply because he is angry with the other Clans. Because of this (and Wind Runner's initial refusal to send help), Tiny Branch dies. There are lots of bad fathers in the series - Onestar, Raggedstar, Tom, etc. But there are none worse, in my opinion, than Clear Sky - and that's saying something as someone who genuinely likes Clear Sky. so true on the kid's ex thing. that kind of crap should be off limits...it also doesnt even matter how old star flower was, clear sky should have respected his son and not be into her or get with her AT ALL...it makes clear x star more gross for me (i hate them individually as well as together as a couple).
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Nov 29, 2021 22:09:25 GMT -5
Stormtail since no one has said him yet
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Nov 29, 2021 22:12:26 GMT -5
Also, Tigerstar the first.
I don't know how I forgot him. He literally wanted his children to come to kitty hell.
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Nov 29, 2021 23:45:35 GMT -5
Sandgorse. Abusive jerk >>
Then there's others people mentioned like Tom, Nettle, and Clear Sky. Onestar was a pretty shitty dad too.
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Post by Aqua on Nov 29, 2021 23:48:05 GMT -5
Oh also Stick. He is such a control freak and literally killed his own daughter because of his own selfishness and need to lord over her like she was kit. What an awful character and I hate how the book glossed over Red's death, wish Dodge or Harley had killed him in HJ That guy always pissed me off. If Stick just respected that Red wanted to be with someone, she would've still been alive. And he still has the nerve to take advantage of SkyClan and holds resentment over Leafstar for allowing her mate to live. He's an asshole.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 29, 2021 23:56:00 GMT -5
Clear Sky, Nettle, and Crowfeather.
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Post by Twilight Sparkle on Nov 30, 2021 8:08:54 GMT -5
Tom, Nettle, Raggedstar, Sandgorse, Stick, Pinestar
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Nov 30, 2021 9:38:08 GMT -5
Tom, Stick, Nettle, and Sandgorse for me.
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Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on Nov 30, 2021 16:57:16 GMT -5
I really like Clear Sky as a character, but he is by far the worst father in the series - mostly to Thunder, but to his other kits as well. First, he lets Storm leave without even trying to stop her - I know he couldn't force her to stay, and he would've been awful if he had, but he didn't even try, he just let her leave. Because of this, Storm and Thunder's littermates all died. When Gray Wing brought Thunder to Clear Sky's camp, Clear Sky immediately turned him away because of his bs idea that a strong group can't have weak members. He makes no attempt to bond with his son until Thunder is old enough to fend for himself. Then, he suddenly claims it was all a test to make sure Thunder could survive without Clear Sky - which he wouldn't have been able to do had it not been for Gray Wing. Clear Sky continued to manipulate Thunder while he was living with him, and even after Thunder left Clear Sky continued to be a terrible father (I'm in the middle of re-reading right now, but I believe I remember Clear Sky trying to get Thunder killed in the first battle?). The fact that Clear Sky was willing to take in the kits of a cat he had just killed, but not his own son really says a lot about him - my guess is that he had a fear of loss after losing Bright Stream, Storm, and his other kits. Eventually he found a new mate - Thunder's ex. No parent should ever be interested in their child's significant other, and this is just an incredibly gross situation all around.
When Clear Sky becomes mates with Star Flower, he is certainly a better cat, better mate, and better father to their kits. But he is still not a good father. In Moth Flight's Vision, Clear Sky delays sending for other medicine cats after Tiny Branch, his son, is attacked by a fox, simply because he is angry with the other Clans. Because of this (and Wind Runner's initial refusal to send help), Tiny Branch dies. There are lots of bad fathers in the series - Onestar, Raggedstar, Tom, etc. But there are none worse, in my opinion, than Clear Sky - and that's saying something as someone who genuinely likes Clear Sky. Thunder and Star Flower never dated lol.
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Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on Nov 30, 2021 16:58:21 GMT -5
Sandgorse, I just despise him and his behavior towards poor Tallstar so much. Nettle, Stick, and absolutely CROWFEATHER were also horrible.
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Post by 𝔯𝔞𝔟𝔟𝔦𝔱𝔣𝔯𝔬𝔰𝔱 on Nov 30, 2021 18:55:33 GMT -5
I really like Clear Sky as a character, but he is by far the worst father in the series - mostly to Thunder, but to his other kits as well. First, he lets Storm leave without even trying to stop her - I know he couldn't force her to stay, and he would've been awful if he had, but he didn't even try, he just let her leave. Because of this, Storm and Thunder's littermates all died. When Gray Wing brought Thunder to Clear Sky's camp, Clear Sky immediately turned him away because of his bs idea that a strong group can't have weak members. He makes no attempt to bond with his son until Thunder is old enough to fend for himself. Then, he suddenly claims it was all a test to make sure Thunder could survive without Clear Sky - which he wouldn't have been able to do had it not been for Gray Wing. Clear Sky continued to manipulate Thunder while he was living with him, and even after Thunder left Clear Sky continued to be a terrible father (I'm in the middle of re-reading right now, but I believe I remember Clear Sky trying to get Thunder killed in the first battle?). The fact that Clear Sky was willing to take in the kits of a cat he had just killed, but not his own son really says a lot about him - my guess is that he had a fear of loss after losing Bright Stream, Storm, and his other kits. Eventually he found a new mate - Thunder's ex. No parent should ever be interested in their child's significant other, and this is just an incredibly gross situation all around.
When Clear Sky becomes mates with Star Flower, he is certainly a better cat, better mate, and better father to their kits. But he is still not a good father. In Moth Flight's Vision, Clear Sky delays sending for other medicine cats after Tiny Branch, his son, is attacked by a fox, simply because he is angry with the other Clans. Because of this (and Wind Runner's initial refusal to send help), Tiny Branch dies. There are lots of bad fathers in the series - Onestar, Raggedstar, Tom, etc. But there are none worse, in my opinion, than Clear Sky - and that's saying something as someone who genuinely likes Clear Sky. Thunder and Star Flower never dated lol. They were never officially together, but they were definitely a thing for a very short period of time. Granted, the whole time it was Star Flower using Thunder for information, but still. They weren't official mates, but they definitely "dated".
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Nov 30, 2021 19:01:45 GMT -5
Thunder and Star Flower never dated lol. They were never officially together, but they were definitely a thing for a very short period of time. Granted, the whole time it was Star Flower using Thunder for information, but still. They weren't official mates, but they definitely "dated". yeah. they were flirting back and forth. regardless of star flower's true feelings towards thunder, they were in a stage OF dating. they spent a lot of time together with mutual flirting and physical closeness. it would still be weird for your estranged dad to come out of nowhere and start dating the girl you were flirting with and were loosely dating in all but title.
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Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on Dec 1, 2021 1:57:04 GMT -5
Thunder and Star Flower never dated lol. They were never officially together, but they were definitely a thing for a very short period of time. Granted, the whole time it was Star Flower using Thunder for information, but still. They weren't official mates, but they definitely "dated". It has never been implied in the books that they were dating, only that Thunder had a crush on her. So yeah, Clear Sky got together with Thunder's crush, but not his ex-girlfriend.
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Post by Moonblazer on Dec 1, 2021 8:48:30 GMT -5
Stick was garbage, Crowfeather was awful, Raggedstar was uh…something.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Dec 1, 2021 15:35:31 GMT -5
They were never officially together, but they were definitely a thing for a very short period of time. Granted, the whole time it was Star Flower using Thunder for information, but still. They weren't official mates, but they definitely "dated". It has never been implied in the books that they were dating, only that Thunder had a crush on her. So yeah, Clear Sky got together with Thunder's crush, but not his ex-girlfriend. Writing wise, their relationship was still implied romantic. Star Flower herself acknowledges their relationship, and Thunder's past feelings for her as well before and after the betrayal, and her sudden change of tune later. She knew about Thunder's feelings, everyone did (even Clear Sky and Gray Wing) and she still decided to lock it down with the dude's dad, that's still pretty messed up, lol. The whole point of character during the One-Eye arc was her taking advantage of Thunder's feelings, and pretending to be into him, so she could get information out of him and betray him later. She expressed guilt, but still sided with her tyrannical father, and got whooped by Gray Wing during the final fight while also being exiled later. It's different from say, Squirrelflight, who knew Ashfur like her, she considered it but still only saw him as a friend, and properly turned him down before getting with Bramble. Or Dovewing who considered the idea of Bumble to get over Tiger, actually did get with Bumble, then broke up with him later. A better comparison would be Feather and Crow, who were considered "unofficially together" from the writing perspective, they had romantic interest in one another, but never became official mates in set stone. Thunder thought Star Flower had mutual feelings for him, as well as the readers and every other supporting character. She implied she did, but later it's proven it was a ploy for information, so no they never officially got together.
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Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on Dec 1, 2021 16:26:52 GMT -5
It has never been implied in the books that they were dating, only that Thunder had a crush on her. So yeah, Clear Sky got together with Thunder's crush, but not his ex-girlfriend. Writing wise, their relationship was still implied romantic. Star Flower herself acknowledges their relationship, and Thunder's past feelings for her as well before and after the betrayal, and her sudden change of tune later. She knew about Thunder's feelings, everyone did (even Clear Sky and Gray Wing) and she still decided to lock it down with the dude's dad, that's still pretty messed up, lol. The whole point of character during the One-Eye arc was her taking advantage of Thunder's feelings, and pretending to be into him, so she could get information out of him and betray him later. She expressed guilt, but still sided with her tyrannical father, and got whooped by Gray Wing during the final fight while also being exiled later. It's different from say, Squirrelflight, who knew Ashfur like her, she considered it but still only saw him as a friend, and properly turned him down before getting with Bramble. Or Dovewing who considered the idea of Bumble to get over Tiger, actually did get with Bumble, then broke up with him later. A better comparison would be Feather and Crow, who were considered "unofficially together" from the writing perspective, they had romantic interest in one another, but never became official mates in set stone. Thunder thought Star Flower had mutual feelings for him, as well as the readers and every other supporting character. She implied she did, but later it's proven it was a ploy for information, so no they never officially got together. I'm not dismissing the fact that Clear Sky was a shitty dad to Thunder, but I think using the Star Flower situation as an example is pretty stupid. And yes, I also know that's a very unpopular opinion. In my eyes, Thunder and Star Flower were never actually together. Maybe they were being somewhat romantic, but it was a way for Star Flower to manipulate Thunder. Thunder dismissed the idea of trusting Star Flower in AFD, but later still persuaded Clear Sky to let her join when he found himself liking her again. He had it coming. He should've known that Star Flower wasn't into him. It was crystal clear. He knew she was manipulating him. Clear Sky had the right to take Star Flower as a mate. He also did not even took the first step. It was Star Flower who sought contact with Clear Sky at some point.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Dec 2, 2021 1:57:21 GMT -5
Writing wise, their relationship was still implied romantic. Star Flower herself acknowledges their relationship, and Thunder's past feelings for her as well before and after the betrayal, and her sudden change of tune later. She knew about Thunder's feelings, everyone did (even Clear Sky and Gray Wing) and she still decided to lock it down with the dude's dad, that's still pretty messed up, lol. The whole point of character during the One-Eye arc was her taking advantage of Thunder's feelings, and pretending to be into him, so she could get information out of him and betray him later. She expressed guilt, but still sided with her tyrannical father, and got whooped by Gray Wing during the final fight while also being exiled later. It's different from say, Squirrelflight, who knew Ashfur like her, she considered it but still only saw him as a friend, and properly turned him down before getting with Bramble. Or Dovewing who considered the idea of Bumble to get over Tiger, actually did get with Bumble, then broke up with him later. A better comparison would be Feather and Crow, who were considered "unofficially together" from the writing perspective, they had romantic interest in one another, but never became official mates in set stone. Thunder thought Star Flower had mutual feelings for him, as well as the readers and every other supporting character. She implied she did, but later it's proven it was a ploy for information, so no they never officially got together. I'm not dismissing the fact that Clear Sky was a shitty dad to Thunder, but I think using the Star Flower situation as an example is pretty stupid. And yes, I also know that's a very unpopular opinion. In my eyes, Thunder and Star Flower were never actually together. Maybe they were being somewhat romantic, but it was a way for Star Flower to manipulate Thunder. Thunder dismissed the idea of trusting Star Flower in AFD, but later still persuaded Clear Sky to let her join when he found himself liking her again. He had it coming. He should've known that Star Flower wasn't into him. It was crystal clear. He knew she was manipulating him. Clear Sky had the right to take Star Flower as a mate. He also did not even took the first step. It was Star Flower who sought contact with Clear Sky at some point. Clear Sky is still gross though. He was aware that his son had feelings for Star Flower, regardless of how things worked out, it's gross to know your son had romantic interest in someone then go out of your way to eventually date, and even marry that said person. It's eye brow raising and very questionable. No one has a right to anyone, period, but morally it's messed up that Clear Sky had the audacity of all people to do something like that. It doesn't matter who approached who either. Just because Star Flower approached Clear Sky first romantically, doesn't change the fact that he too was aware she was a lying manipulator that used his son, AND also stood by and watched as her father and his goons literally tortured him. And he still went, "Oh well she's into me so I guess I might as well!" Yeah no. Originally I would have just said Star Flower and Clear Sky are both indeed "horrible mates" but looking back on the circumstances of this, I can also see why some would also consider Clear Sky a "horrible father" STILL when bringing up the Star Flower situation. Clear Sky is just overall a horrible father; abandoned Thunder as a kit, neglected him as a father, ridiculed him when his own son called him out, and then turns around and gets with the she-cat HE KNEW he had/used have feelings for. There's a reason why the books points out how weird and messed up it is, and that's because it is. Heck, they were so on the nose about Star Flower being a manipulator and possibly using Clear Sky as well, that the other clans for the longest time thought she was just working with Slash the whole time. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter if Thunder and Star Flower ever dated or not, the dude was still aware of his son's feelings and didn't care. And he's very much aware of how Star Flower treated him and his son like crap, but apparently he still doesn't draw the line at manipulation and torture? Just because it happened to work out in the end, doesn't make what he did any less messed up.
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Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on Dec 2, 2021 2:06:39 GMT -5
I'm not dismissing the fact that Clear Sky was a shitty dad to Thunder, but I think using the Star Flower situation as an example is pretty stupid. And yes, I also know that's a very unpopular opinion. In my eyes, Thunder and Star Flower were never actually together. Maybe they were being somewhat romantic, but it was a way for Star Flower to manipulate Thunder. Thunder dismissed the idea of trusting Star Flower in AFD, but later still persuaded Clear Sky to let her join when he found himself liking her again. He had it coming. He should've known that Star Flower wasn't into him. It was crystal clear. He knew she was manipulating him. Clear Sky had the right to take Star Flower as a mate. He also did not even took the first step. It was Star Flower who sought contact with Clear Sky at some point. Clear Sky is still gross though. He was aware that his son had feelings for Star Flower, regardless of how things worked out, it's gross to know your son had romantic interest in someone then go out of your way to eventually date, and even marry that said person. It's eye brow raising and very questionable. No one has a right to anyone, period, but morally it's messed up that Clear Sky had the audacity of all people to do something like that. It doesn't matter who approached who either. Just because Star Flower approached Clear Sky first romantically, doesn't change the fact that he too was aware she was a lying manipulator that used his son, AND also stood by and watched as her father and his goons literally tortured him. And he still went, "Oh well she's into me so I guess I might as well!" Yeah no. Originally I would have just said Star Flower and Clear Sky are both indeed "horrible mates" but looking back on the circumstances of this, I can also see why some would also consider Clear Sky a "horrible father" STILL when bringing up the Star Flower situation. At the end of the day, he abandoned Thunder as a kit, neglected him as a father, ridiculed him when his own son called him out, and then turns around and gets with the she-cat HE KNEW he had/used have feelings for. There's a reason why the books points out how weird and messed up it is, and that's because it is. Heck, they were so on the nose about Star Flower being a manipulator and possibly using Clear Sky as well, that the other clans for the longest time thought she was just working with Slash the whole time. I never said he wasn't gross and a bad father? I agree on every other thing you mentioned about his behavior towards Thunder. That I don't blame him for the Star Flower situation doesn't mean you have to point out all his other flaws, because I already know they're there and I recognize that he was a bad dad towards Thunder, something I already said. We can agree to disagree.
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Heterosexual
Epic Grandmaster of Headcanons
ˈʔɛɱb̪ɻ̩f̞ʊt̠̚
Message me your headcanons pls
Pronouns: He/him/his (but they's good too)
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Post by ˈʔɛɱb̪ɻ̩f̞ʊt̠̚ on Dec 2, 2021 13:32:47 GMT -5
tom.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Dec 2, 2021 16:37:53 GMT -5
Tigerstar I. He never cared even one mousetail about any of kits and only pretended to do so in order to manipulate them into following his path of constantly being hungry for power thus dragging them down with him. He succeeded with Hawkfrost only to later congratulate Brambleclaw on killing him (again) in TLH. If none of his other actions towards them made the true feelings he had on his offspring already obvious, this scene surely did the job of showing just that.
Still love to hate this absolute menace though.
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