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Post by Fernsong on Nov 26, 2021 3:24:19 GMT -5
Bramblestar is throughout the final third of AVoS, Squirrelflight's Hope, and TBC afraid of angering Tigerstar II for several different reasons. Let's imagine they eventually drag their clans into an all out fight to the end, where only one can remain. Which clan do you think would win such a battle? Does Bramblestar rightfully fear Tigerheartstar, or would the younger Tigerclone get smacked down easily? Let's say it takes place after A Light in the Mist.
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Post by Katanaheart on Nov 26, 2021 3:27:12 GMT -5
Likely TC would win: More importantly, ShadowClan would be trampling through SkyClan territory to even attack ThunderClan. A whole attack force just waltzing through your territory isn’t going to be a great thing. (The lake border isn’t going to be too great with an attack force so a conflict with SkyClan on the way to battle ThunderClan would likely weaken ShadowClan’s forces.)
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Post by Fernsong on Nov 26, 2021 3:34:34 GMT -5
Likely TC would win: More importantly, ShadowClan would be trampling through SkyClan territory to even attack ThunderClan. A whole attack force just waltzing through your territory isn’t going to be a great thing. (The lake border isn’t going to be too great with an attack force so a conflict with SkyClan on the way to battle ThunderClan would likely weaken ShadowClan’s forces.) I hadn't thought about that, shoot For the sake of this hypothetical battle, let's just say that they decide to meet on SkyClan territory to have their final fight, and SkyClan allows it just because. Unrealistic, but I'm just interested in the outcome of this battle
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Post by kells on Nov 26, 2021 3:37:54 GMT -5
ThunderClan easily. One, they would definitely have SkyClan on their side, whereas ShadowClan hasn't had a good rep with the Clans given they held Ashstar prisoner there despite everyone's wishes... And they also have way more cats than ShadowClam
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Post by crowspirit on Nov 26, 2021 3:49:58 GMT -5
Well, ThunderClan has like sixty cats and a lot of great fighters like Bramblestar himself, Lionblaze and Ivypool. I don't think there are any ShadowClan cats that have been specifically stated to be good fighters, except for maybe Tigerheartstar since he trained in the Dark Forest. But I think ThunderClan would win based on the sheer number of cats alone.
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Post by Katanaheart on Nov 26, 2021 4:20:31 GMT -5
To somewhat be on topic with Bramblestar’s fears, he likely placates Tigerstar II due to the unnecessary damage that would be inflicted on SkyClan. (Which keeps in line with his thinking and worry about the fifth Clan in SQH. Also unrelated but this may be an insecurity due to who raised SkyClan back from the ashes: Firestar.)
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Post by Moonblazer on Nov 26, 2021 7:55:55 GMT -5
To somewhat be on topic with Bramblestar’s fears, he likely placates Tigerstar II due to the unnecessary damage that would be inflicted on SkyClan. (Which keeps in line with his thinking and worry about the fifth Clan in SQH. Also unrelated but this may be an insecurity due to who raised SkyClan back from the ashes: Firestar.) This. If Skyclan were not part of this equation and were not still vulnerable at the time, I highly doubt Bramblestar would have had any issue whooping Tigerheart’s ass if he pulled the crap he did the whole book. It’s not Tigerheart he’s afraid of, he’s afraid that a conflict like this will not only displace a Clan that Starclan themselves have stated belongs amongst the clans, and that instigating a fight will cause more damage to every clan around them. Because Bramblestar has always, to me at least, had a collective group mentality, that the entire clan/clans matter first before the thoughts and opinions of one cat, in this instance those cats being Squirrelflight and Tigerheart, etc.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Nov 26, 2021 11:41:35 GMT -5
ThunderClan would destroy ShadowClan for sure and Bramblestar could be able to easily beat Tigerstar II in a battle. Him being scared of what his nephew might do during SqH or their prophecised fight (which he lost) in VoS (were he was still possessed by Ashfur) should not be able to influence/change this exact outcome much.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 26, 2021 11:48:07 GMT -5
I personally think it's less "Bramblestar is afraid of Tigerheart" and more, "I'd rather keep my clan safe, avoid unnecessary bloodshed between three clans, and not have to smack down my sister's idiotic son."
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Post by vectoring34 on Nov 26, 2021 12:03:57 GMT -5
Bramblestar is terrified of breaking the peace but it's not because he's afraid Thunderclan would lose, it's because he's afraid Tigerheart would do something stupid and reckless and make the other clans suffer before the issue is settled. If it came to a straight fight, Thunderclan wins, but Tigerheart isn't that dumb to make it a straight fight either, his threats almost always revolve around bullying Skyclan.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Nov 26, 2021 17:26:44 GMT -5
Moonblazer and Maplefrost have already hit it pretty hard on the money.
Bramblestar wishing to not instigate hostility with Tigerstar II imo at least, has nothing to do with him cowarding before his pipsqueak nephew. But is just him wishing to keep the peace that starclan has proclaimed to be necessary amongst the clans, and also avoid unneeded bloodshed and potential loses to all parties involved. Plus given Shadowclans painted track record of using shady and surreptitious and covert maneuvers and methods and disreputable tactics to get what they want. They’d undeniably play dirty and wouldn’t make it a straightforward confrontation between TC and ShC and would inevitably pull Skyclan into the battle as well, and given Mistystars and Harestars general agreement with Tigerstar, theirs no telling whether or not if they’d back Shadowclan up and turn it into a full-scale War amongst all 5 clans. Which would have disastrous results for all the clans, but Skyclan especially been still weakened from all their traveling and being displaced multiple times and trying to regain their footing, and their numbers have been thinned as well from the numerous hardships they’ve endured over the moons.
And I think it’s also worth mentioning that SqH also takes place , starting from the beginning of Leaf-fall, approaching towards leaf-bare near the end of the book. So any injuries sustained from conflict of that magnitude becomes much more serious, with the cats already being weakened by prey being scarcer, and harsher weather, so the prospect of infection of complications that could easily turn terminal becomes multiple times greater then normal.
And even if Skyclan agreed to move themselves, it’s still much more risky and precarious given the season. And moving Vulnerable Queens and kits onto unexplored, that could potentially be holding unknown dangers as bramblestar brought up is an incredibly unwise decision to make, and very cold-hearted on Tigerstar’s part to even suggest as a plausible option at that time, and Likewise to mistystar and harestar for also considering/agreeing with the notion. And if Skyclan were to have complications with a family of foxes or den of badgers, things could easily become quite catastrophic and leave Skyclan decimated. With spilled blood that would stain Tigerstars already discreditable reputation.
As Moonblazer stated . Bramblestar is thinking of the well-being of the collective congregation, and him wishing to deflect conflict and spilled blood is pretty honourable and shouldn’t be regarded as weakness, as I see many make claim that it was cowardly, and sometimes you must ignore the opinions and thoughts of the few, most notably Squirrelflight and Tigerstar. Since Squirrelflight is mostly only thinking about her own desires and wants, and it’s really a show of how terrible mate/leader/deputy combos inevitably become not only in literature, but IRL as well. Since Squirrelflight is incapable of taking admonishment and reprimanding as a deputy, without blurring the lines between them and taking as a personal attack from her Mate. Theirs Reasons Romance is prohibited in the workplace, cause it very, very rarely works out, without causing some degree of tension in the relationship. Unless of course the deputy is Gonna be completely agreeable, and never argue at all, which isn’t very conducive to be passive all the time. or is able to separate politics from their love life. Which clearly Squirrelflight can not .
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Nov 26, 2021 22:25:16 GMT -5
Unfortunately, Bramblestar is in a bad situation where Tigerjesus is concerned. Not only does Bramble want peace, but he's also very close to his sister. And I doubt he wants to upset his sister by fighting her last living kit.
That said, Lionblaze alone can body most of the clan, plus there are other solid fighters so they'd probably win.
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