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🌌dapple🌙 (formerly freckle)
I didn't get thunder yet but the one thing I wonder abt has been spoiled so should I still buy?
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Post by 🌌dapple🌙 (formerly freckle) on Nov 20, 2021 9:38:56 GMT -5
I really hope this thread doesn't end up devolving into arguing because in reality I just want a clear perspective and view on this, so in advance pls try to not be attackish? Because I know this could be taken wrong and this isn't what I want.
I hear often that Bramblestar should have never made Squirrelflight his deputy because when they end up getting back together it leads to his negative treatment to her.
However I also hear often complaints from people who really REALLY get onto Firestar's case, for not immediately Sandstorm his deputy, rather than Graystripe.
It confuses me personally, because I feel if Firestar had, people would claim he is abusive for ordering Sandstorm, as she would be his deputy. I know people dislike Bramble as a character, and Firestar is seen as sometimes hot headed but trying to do right. But both toms are shown as "morally pure" by the by the BOOKS not the FANDOM.
So would people hate Firestar for ordering Sandstorm as his deputy like how Bramble does or is it just Bramble is bad as a character not a leader? I'm curious!
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Nov 20, 2021 10:30:17 GMT -5
? Who says that Sandstorm should have been Firestar’s deputy? I’ve never seen that.
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Nov 20, 2021 10:40:12 GMT -5
I don't really see this too often, but even then, you have to understand that there's a big difference between the two relationships and it's that one is actually healthier than the other. The thing about Bramblestar wasn't that he was giving Squirrelflight orders, but how he acted while giving them (ex: how Squirrelflight organized patrols). Squirrelflight meanwhile went behind Bramblestar's back, however good her intentions were. Neither Firestar nor Sandstorm would do this to each other.
Also, Windstar appointed Gorse Fur as her deputy and they're one of the healthiest relationships in the entire series. Just because Bramblestar and Squirrelflight as leader and deputy doesn't work well doesn't necessarily mean anything.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2021 10:53:52 GMT -5
ultimately I think the issue is with the power balance. there have been leader-deputy pairs that work well together, and I don’t think it’s impossible for a leader and deputy to be mates and still maintain a healthy relationship as equals. however, we also see leaders who order their deputies around without listening to a word they say. when this is combined with a romantic relationship, the power dynamic is extremely unhealthy. it’s especially bad in the case of bramblesquirrel, which is very apparent in squirrelflight’s hope. I won’t dive into the specifics, as they’ve been covered multiple times before, but bramblestar has a lot more power than squirrelflight does in this relationship and the two are not written as equals (which is necessary in literally every relationship, if your significant other does not treat you as an equal that is not a good thing!) and this isn’t just a leadership thing, he uses his rank as deputy in oots to punish squirrelflight for lying about the three if you want to go even further back, the fact that brambleclaw was a warrior at the beginning of tnp and squirrelflight was an apprentice further contributes to this reoccurring theme of a difference in their power balance. their relationship has never moved past this.
the reason I think this wouldn’t apply to firesand, if sandstorm became deputy, is simply because firestar always considers sandstorm his equal, regardless of his rank in the clan. I’m personally not a fan of the nepotism in the series, especially thunderclan, so I don’t think I’d really want sandstorm as deputy, but it is very clear that those two are able to work together as equals.
if you compare bramblestar’s storm and squirrelflight’s hope to firestar’s quest, you will find very significant differences in the power dynamic between the two.
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Nov 20, 2021 11:38:49 GMT -5
Bramblestar in general has an issue with power and authority. This is displayed very early on and led to cats finding him downright annoying in TNP. (He would literally harp on border patrols for grabbing something to eat.) Honestly, I think any cat that would want to think independently would have a hard time being Bramblestar's deputy.
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Cloudstorm
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Post by Cloudstorm on Nov 20, 2021 12:26:30 GMT -5
If Firestar made Sandstorm deputy, they’d definitely would butt heads on an occasion, but overall Their relationship is healthier, and they have greater mutual understanding of the other and are more diplomatic and are able to run ideas by the other without feeling lessened or taking offense, undermining authority etc. bramblestar and Squirrelflight, Squirrelflight especially are unable to separate and distinguish the difference between political matters and their relationship, so they constantly get blended together and cause discourse. Is there Power imbalance? Not imo, just that being mates and a deputy/leader combo is not a very good option for them, they need to decide one or the other. Of course since the new editing team has needlessly added drama and more dissension between them for drama/plot purposes, they have been made much worse then they should of been.
And if the team kept with Victoria Holmes original route of never making them Mates again, then they’d probably have very little dilemmas and problems being Leader and deputy together, as it’s very clearly displayed to be working out fine in Bramblestar’s Storm.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Nov 20, 2021 13:17:02 GMT -5
While I'm not a fan of either relationship, FireSand is definitely way healthier and they communicate on a more equal level than BrambleSquirrel ever could. So even if Sandstorm had been chosen by Firestar to become his deputy instead of Graystripe, I highly doubt their relationship would have ever become as toxic or suffered as much as that of Bramblestar and Squirrelflight has (and I adore these two as individuals but they should have never gotten together).
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Nov 20, 2021 15:00:11 GMT -5
deputies are supposed to follow their leader, while also offer a healthy dose of differing options, opinions, and insights, etc.
but i dont think i've seen people say they wanted sandstorm as firestar's deputy. graystripe never deserved deputyship in the first place though and i'll never let that go lol. i still feel like bramblestar handing squirrelflight deputyship as an apology gift was stupid and i dont feel like she earned it in the first place either. there are other, more healthy ways to apologize and work things out with squirrelflight than making her his working partner, which almost never ends well. they weren't even on completely healed and good terms yet when he decided to make her his deputy...so it was doomed to fail no matter if they got back together or not.
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Post by ˈʔɛɱb̪ɻ̩f̞ʊt̠̚ on Nov 20, 2021 17:30:47 GMT -5
It's two completely different situations. I'm not going to repeat what everyone else is saying, but I agree with all of it.
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Nov 20, 2021 18:23:34 GMT -5
I've never seen people saying that Sandstorm should have been Firestar's deputy and I honestly think that and BrambleSquirrel is two completely different situations simply because their personalities and relationships are so different from each other.
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Cloudstorm
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Post by Cloudstorm on Nov 20, 2021 19:56:29 GMT -5
Bramblestar in general has an issue with power and authority. This is displayed very early on and led to cats finding him downright annoying in TNP. (He would literally harp on border patrols for grabbing something to eat.) Honestly, I think any cat that would want to think independently would have a hard time being Bramblestar's deputy. while I can partly agree that Brambleclaw has a little bit of an issue with power and authority, most notably back in TNP. There’s a tremendous difference between thinking independently and having differing opinions, like someone like Dustpelt, thornclaw or cloudtail for example. and blatantly just overruling and undermining your leaders authority like Squirrelflight, and stepping out of line and using their mateship status as leverage to guilt-trip him into agreeing with her and presenting a very estranged, weak image before other clan leaders that could be exploited later on. If any other cat was deputy of similar personality and comparable attributes to Squirrelflight, pretty sure there’d still be far less issues because they wouldn’t be mates.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 20, 2021 23:17:58 GMT -5
Pretty much what Cloudstorm said. I'm personally not big on Leader/Deputy relationships where they're mates, but if they work then they work. But if Sand and Fire were in this scenario, I doubt Sandstorm would be as reckless as her daughter and step out of line so many times. Butt heads with Firestar? Yeah maybe. But straight up lying to Fire, going behind his back, and using their relationship status to their advantage in arguments? No...I can't really see Sand ever doing that, and that's coming from someone who doesn't even like the SandFire pairing. I'm not fond of it, but even I know Sand wouldn't act as selfish and immature as Squirrelflight did.
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Post by platinum blond death on Nov 21, 2021 2:30:01 GMT -5
i already think appointing your mate as your deputy is a somewhat shaky idea at best and a terrible idea at worst. like, you need to have a solid relationship to work with each other and bramblestar and squirrelflight just don't have that. squirrel lied to bramble and went behind his back, bramble is too harsh on her, and although i don't think sqh is the perfect representation of either of them it proves just how terrible the leader-deputy combo can be when an unstable relationship is within those roles. like lady said, bramble shouldn't have made squirrel his deputy just to apologize! it was just around the time he was beginning to forgive her; he shouldn't have given her such an important rank just because he wanted to apologize. not because she was the right cat for the job, because he wanted to apologize for giving her the cold shoulder or smth.
onto firestar and sandstorm: they never would have done any of these! they had their disagreements, they had their fights, and sandstorm might've been rude to him at first but their relationship matured! i didn't want sand as deputy but had she been i think their relationship was stable enough to the point where they would be fine as leader and deputy.
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Cloudstorm
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Post by Cloudstorm on Nov 21, 2021 3:27:58 GMT -5
like lady said, bramble shouldn't have made squirrel his deputy just to apologize! it was just around the time he was beginning to forgive her; he shouldn't have given her such an important rank just because he wanted to apologize. not because she was the right cat for the job, because he wanted to apologize for giving her the cold shoulder or smth. . Bramblestar appointing Squirrelflight as his deputy had little to do with being an apology. And nothing to do with threading down the pathway of rekindling their relationship like some people seem to believe. The foundation of his decision was derived from the fact that even after all the deceit and lies, and betrayal he still trusted her more then anyone else, and that they’d make a perfect leader / deputy team according to Vicky Holmes , and that after seeing her at her best and lowest times in life, there would be no more surprises for him to worry about, and Victoria Holmes wrote in her Confidential notes in The Last Hope that Brambleclaw and Squirrelflight would never get back together. And since TLH was the final conclusion to the main series for Vicky Holmes and was fully intended to be the end, having him forgive Squirrelflight was more to give final closure for both of them and wrap it up in a pretty bow , and is purely coincidental and unrelated to why he gave her the deputy position. But of course all of this has been retconned by the new team, so juicy Dramatic Spectacles, and gag-inducing theatrics may prevail.
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Transgender
🌌dapple🌙 (formerly freckle)
I didn't get thunder yet but the one thing I wonder abt has been spoiled so should I still buy?
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Post by 🌌dapple🌙 (formerly freckle) on Nov 22, 2021 12:11:02 GMT -5
Ahhhh now I understand! Thank you all for explaining. I was just really confused XD
As for where I hear Sand should be Fire's deputy a lot, I heard it often in Sunnyfall's videos and how Fire should have made Sand his deputy.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Nov 22, 2021 12:35:44 GMT -5
Ahhhh now I understand! Thank you all for explaining. I was just really confused XD As for where I hear Sand should be Fire's deputy a lot, I heard it often in Sunnyfall's videos and how Fire should have made Sand his deputy. That was in her "Trip Through Time" series, right? But here's the thing, it's her own opinion and doesn't mean that Firestar actually had to do anything of the sort except to fit how Sunnyfall sees it. She also replaced Brambleclaw as deputy with Brackenfur in her rewrite of PoT (Paws of Stars on AO3) due to her not liking Brambleclaw/star and thinking he didn't deserve it or is even fit to be deputy at all. Once again, these are her personal thoughts and while they are valid and she is free to have them it doesn't mean everyone else feels the same about this (or other) topic(s) in the series. Of course, there certainly are people who agree with her (Sandstar AUs were and still are popular) but not every fan ever. I honestly wanted Cloudtail to become leader after his uncle Firestar just to piss everybody off about nepotism and because his mother Princess joked about it (or meant it) back during Fire and Ice.
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Transgender
🌌dapple🌙 (formerly freckle)
I didn't get thunder yet but the one thing I wonder abt has been spoiled so should I still buy?
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Post by 🌌dapple🌙 (formerly freckle) on Nov 22, 2021 12:41:51 GMT -5
Ahhhh now I understand! Thank you all for explaining. I was just really confused XD As for where I hear Sand should be Fire's deputy a lot, I heard it often in Sunnyfall's videos and how Fire should have made Sand his deputy. That was in her "Trip Through Time" series, right? But here's the thing, it's her own opinion and doesn't mean that Firestar actually had to do anything of the sort except to fit how Sunnyfall sees it. She also replaced Brambleclaw as deputy with Brackenfur in her rewrite of PoT (Paws of Stars on AO3) due to her not liking Brambleclaw/star and thinking he didn't deserve it or is even fit to be deputy at all. Once again, these are her personal thoughts and while they are valid and she is free to have them it doesn't mean everyone else feels the same about this (or other) topic(s) in the series. Of course, there certainly are people who agree with her (Sandstar AUs were and still are popular) but not every fan ever. I honestly wanted Cloudtail to become leader after his uncle Firestar just to piss everybody off about nepotism and because his mother Princess joked about it (or meant it) back during Fire and Ice. Yeah that makes sense, I gotcha! And honestly that last part's pretty funny! XD I'm sorry if I offended anyone by making assumptions too!
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Aroace
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Nov 22, 2021 12:50:56 GMT -5
That was in her "Trip Through Time" series, right? But here's the thing, it's her own opinion and doesn't mean that Firestar actually had to do anything of the sort except to fit how Sunnyfall sees it. She also replaced Brambleclaw as deputy with Brackenfur in her rewrite of PoT (Paws of Stars on AO3) due to her not liking Brambleclaw/star and thinking he didn't deserve it or is even fit to be deputy at all. Once again, these are her personal thoughts and while they are valid and she is free to have them it doesn't mean everyone else feels the same about this (or other) topic(s) in the series. Of course, there certainly are people who agree with her (Sandstar AUs were and still are popular) but not every fan ever. I honestly wanted Cloudtail to become leader after his uncle Firestar just to piss everybody off about nepotism and because his mother Princess joked about it (or meant it) back during Fire and Ice. Yeah that makes sense, I gotcha! And honestly that last part's pretty funny! XD I'm sorry if I offended anyone by making assumptions too! You didn't offend anyone! Or at least not me and I wouldn't see how others could have been offended by you asking a simple question about something regarding leaders having their mates as deputies.
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Post by ˈʔɛɱb̪ɻ̩f̞ʊt̠̚ on Nov 22, 2021 17:06:11 GMT -5
stan should show the erins how much we hate hate hate squirrelflight and get rid of her, hopefully in a bloody, gruesome way that she deserves.
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Nov 22, 2021 18:16:54 GMT -5
stan should show the erins how much we hate hate hate squirrelflight and get rid of her, hopefully in a bloody, gruesome way that she deserves. To be fair not everyone hates Squirrelflight and "we" is too broadly generalizing it imo.
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Post by ˈʔɛɱb̪ɻ̩f̞ʊt̠̚ on Nov 22, 2021 18:26:04 GMT -5
good point, Ṣanɗypaw™. A lot of people on this forum really do hate her tho i can always count on you to chastize me.
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Nov 22, 2021 18:27:54 GMT -5
good point, Ṣanɗypaw™ . A lot of people on this forum really do hate her tho i can always count on you to chastize me. Yeah, and that's on this specific forum. There are many other Warriors-related sites out there where fans might feel differently.
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Post by 𝔯𝔞𝔟𝔟𝔦𝔱𝔣𝔯𝔬𝔰𝔱 on Nov 22, 2021 18:33:49 GMT -5
Well, for one, Sandstorm couldn't be made deputy after Whitestorm's death - she had never had an apprentice at that point. But also, as much as I love Sandstorm, I don't think she'd make a great deputy. She was much better as a supportive warrior. She didn't quite have the leadership qualities necessary for a deputy.
Quite frankly, I don't think Squirrelflight should've been made Bramblestar's deputy, either. I just don't think it made sense.
There's also a big difference in their relationships. Firestar and Sandstorm's relationship was always healthy - Brambleclaw and Squirrelflight's relationship never was. They were always toxic together, they never treated each other the way they deserved. And quite frankly, him making Squirrelflight his deputy always felt a bit manipulative. Rather than apologize for being a jerk and ignoring her for moons and moons, he just made her his deputy and hoped it would be magically better?
But yeah. I honestly don't think either Squirrelflight or Sandstorm should've been made deputy. Quite frankly, no leader should make their mate deputy. It adds a weird power struggle within the relationship that doesn't quite exist between a leader and their regular warrior mate.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 22, 2021 23:12:11 GMT -5
And quite frankly, him making Squirrelflight his deputy always felt a bit manipulative. Rather than apologize for being a jerk and ignoring her for moons and moons, he just made her his deputy and hoped it would be magically better? He made her deputy as a sign of trust. How is that manipulative? Squirrelflight is the one that broke the trust between them, and used him as father fodder, lying to his face about his children and letting him find out the truth at the gathering. If any one was being manipulative, it's Squirrelflight. Him offering her the deputy position, a position no one was forcing her to take, and she very well could have declined the offer, was to show that he trusted her again, because the trust between a Leader and Deputy is vital for a clan to function. They also weren't even together anymore at the time either, it was Squirrelflight that actively wanted to mend their relationship and get back together after breaking the trust of their relationship as a couple. She lied to him for moons, he had a right to be upset and ignore her if he wanted to after what she did, I hardly see how that makes him a jerk. Especially when Squirrelflight thought apologizing after being outed would magically make their relationship better again.
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Cloudstorm
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Post by Cloudstorm on Nov 23, 2021 0:51:29 GMT -5
And quite frankly, him making Squirrelflight his deputy always felt a bit manipulative. Rather than apologize for being a jerk and ignoring her for moons and moons, he just made her his deputy and hoped it would be magically better? He made her deputy as a sign of trust. How is that manipulative? Squirrelflight is the one that broke the trust between them, and used him as father fodder, lying to his face about his children and letting him find out the truth at the gathering. If any one was being manipulative, it's Squirrelflight. Him offering her the deputy position, a position no one was forcing her to take, and she very well could have declined the offer, was to show that he trusted her again, because the trust between a Leader and Deputy is vital for a clan to function. They also weren't even together anymore at the time either, it was Squirrelflight that actively wanted to mend their relationship and get back together after breaking the trust of their relationship as a couple. She lied to him for moons, he had a right to be upset and ignore her if he wanted to after what she did, I hardly see how that makes him a jerk. Especially when Squirrelflight thought apologizing after being outed would magically make their relationship better again. yeah it’s kinda mind-boggling how many people seem to forget that Squirrelflight was the one that desperately wanted to make amends and rekindle their relationship, while Brambleclaw never had any intentions of ever getting back together with her. Seems like people wanna throw flack at Bramblestar just for the sake of it sometimes, I mean he isn’t perfect by no means, but people sure do like to demonize him an awful lot. People also seem to forget when he offered her the position as deputy, they were never going to back together, so don’t really see where people are coming from with the assumption that it was manipulative.
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Post by 𝔯𝔞𝔟𝔟𝔦𝔱𝔣𝔯𝔬𝔰𝔱 on Nov 23, 2021 17:47:43 GMT -5
And quite frankly, him making Squirrelflight his deputy always felt a bit manipulative. Rather than apologize for being a jerk and ignoring her for moons and moons, he just made her his deputy and hoped it would be magically better? He made her deputy as a sign of trust. How is that manipulative? Squirrelflight is the one that broke the trust between them, and used him as father fodder, lying to his face about his children and letting him find out the truth at the gathering. If any one was being manipulative, it's Squirrelflight. Him offering her the deputy position, a position no one was forcing her to take, and she very well could have declined the offer, was to show that he trusted her again, because the trust between a Leader and Deputy is vital for a clan to function. They also weren't even together anymore at the time either, it was Squirrelflight that actively wanted to mend their relationship and get back together after breaking the trust of their relationship as a couple. She lied to him for moons, he had a right to be upset and ignore her if he wanted to after what she did, I hardly see how that makes him a jerk. Especially when Squirrelflight thought apologizing after being outed would magically make their relationship better again. Oh trust me, I agree that Squirrelflight was manipulative and wrong for lying to Bramblestar for so long about the kits he believed were his. I'm not denying that. They were both bad for each other. But I can also sympathize with Squirrelflight's point of view on this - she was just doing what she thought was best for her sister and her Clan. Did she go about it the right way? No, of course not. But she did what she thought was best and I can empathize with that. I understand why Bramblestar was angry, and he had every right to be. But continuing to completely ignore her long after the conflict had ended was a bit petty - he was the Clan deputy, and the Clan deputy really needs to be responsible for all of their warriors, even the ones they don't particularly care for. And instead of apologizing for treating Squirrelflight as no more than dirt, he just made her deputy in what felt to me like his hope of smoothing things over and pretending like it didn't happen. They never really spoke about the situation, they never fixed the issue. Bramblestar was just like "here, be deputy" and all was good again, and there's just something about that that has always felt wrong to me. I'm not trying to paint Squirrelflight as a victim and Bramblestar as an abuser or anything like that - they are both toxic to each other. But the whole way he made her deputy felt wrong and manipulative to me.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 24, 2021 3:41:55 GMT -5
He made her deputy as a sign of trust. How is that manipulative? Squirrelflight is the one that broke the trust between them, and used him as father fodder, lying to his face about his children and letting him find out the truth at the gathering. If any one was being manipulative, it's Squirrelflight. Him offering her the deputy position, a position no one was forcing her to take, and she very well could have declined the offer, was to show that he trusted her again, because the trust between a Leader and Deputy is vital for a clan to function. They also weren't even together anymore at the time either, it was Squirrelflight that actively wanted to mend their relationship and get back together after breaking the trust of their relationship as a couple. She lied to him for moons, he had a right to be upset and ignore her if he wanted to after what she did, I hardly see how that makes him a jerk. Especially when Squirrelflight thought apologizing after being outed would magically make their relationship better again. Oh trust me, I agree that Squirrelflight was manipulative and wrong for lying to Bramblestar for so long about the kits he believed were his. I'm not denying that. They were both bad for each other. But I can also sympathize with Squirrelflight's point of view on this - she was just doing what she thought was best for her sister and her Clan. Did she go about it the right way? No, of course not. But she did what she thought was best and I can empathize with that. I understand why Bramblestar was angry, and he had every right to be. But continuing to completely ignore her long after the conflict had ended was a bit petty - he was the Clan deputy, and the Clan deputy really needs to be responsible for all of their warriors, even the ones they don't particularly care for. And instead of apologizing for treating Squirrelflight as no more than dirt, he just made her deputy in what felt to me like his hope of smoothing things over and pretending like it didn't happen. They never really spoke about the situation, they never fixed the issue. Bramblestar was just like "here, be deputy" and all was good again, and there's just something about that that has always felt wrong to me. I'm not trying to paint Squirrelflight as a victim and Bramblestar as an abuser or anything like that - they are both toxic to each other. But the whole way he made her deputy felt wrong and manipulative to me. No offense, but where in the story did he ignore her as a deputy? I would like to see that, because last I checked he still did his duties as deputy regardless of her wanting to get back with him. He even had her assigned to patrols that he himself was leading. Bramble ignored her when she kept padding after him, but still put her on patrols and assignments like any deputy would. She was noted to desperately try and find some sort of sign that he still loved her, but he was either indifferent or still hurt. He has a right to still be angry at her, he's not obligated to forgive her for what she did. Heck, she STILL didn't tell him the truth about the prophecy either until Hollyleaf returns and brings it up. Bramble very much still loved the three like his own children, but at the end of the day, Squirrelflight broke their trust and used him. Him making her deputy had nothing to do with fixing their romantic life and more with him trusting her again as a fellow warrior, a clanmate. BrS makes that very clear. Also the time between POT and OotS is not that long, at most its 6 moons because Ivypool and Dovewing are born at the end of POT and become apprentices by the first book in OotS. That's not a long time. OotS is a direct follow up to POT timeline wise, and BrS follows that immediately. At most Squirrel and Bramble spent at least 9 to 12 moons at most, apart. He forgives her at the end of OotS but they don't get back together until the end of BrS.
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Post by Moonblazer on Nov 24, 2021 8:50:20 GMT -5
He made her deputy as a sign of trust. How is that manipulative? Squirrelflight is the one that broke the trust between them, and used him as father fodder, lying to his face about his children and letting him find out the truth at the gathering. If any one was being manipulative, it's Squirrelflight. Him offering her the deputy position, a position no one was forcing her to take, and she very well could have declined the offer, was to show that he trusted her again, because the trust between a Leader and Deputy is vital for a clan to function. They also weren't even together anymore at the time either, it was Squirrelflight that actively wanted to mend their relationship and get back together after breaking the trust of their relationship as a couple. She lied to him for moons, he had a right to be upset and ignore her if he wanted to after what she did, I hardly see how that makes him a jerk. Especially when Squirrelflight thought apologizing after being outed would magically make their relationship better again. Oh trust me, I agree that Squirrelflight was manipulative and wrong for lying to Bramblestar for so long about the kits he believed were his. I'm not denying that. They were both bad for each other. But I can also sympathize with Squirrelflight's point of view on this - she was just doing what she thought was best for her sister and her Clan. Did she go about it the right way? No, of course not. But she did what she thought was best and I can empathize with that. I understand why Bramblestar was angry, and he had every right to be. But continuing to completely ignore her long after the conflict had ended was a bit petty - he was the Clan deputy, and the Clan deputy really needs to be responsible for all of their warriors, even the ones they don't particularly care for. And instead of apologizing for treating Squirrelflight as no more than dirt, he just made her deputy in what felt to me like his hope of smoothing things over and pretending like it didn't happen. They never really spoke about the situation, they never fixed the issue. Bramblestar was just like "here, be deputy" and all was good again, and there's just something about that that has always felt wrong to me. I'm not trying to paint Squirrelflight as a victim and Bramblestar as an abuser or anything like that - they are both toxic to each other. But the whole way he made her deputy felt wrong and manipulative to me. While I do agree with some of your points, I also am of the mindset that doing what you think is best or right does not protect you from the consequences of hurting others. This wasn’t just some little white lie, this was a cat lying to the face of her own mate that their kits were his, to which he invested everything in loving and raising them. He even openly admits that had she told him, he would have helped and supported her, but she deceived him for a long time at that point. While I don’t think anybody thinks Squirrelflight ever did such a thing out of malice, she still lied about one of the most serious things you could ever lie about. That trust was destroyed and even if she thought she did the right thing, the person who’s trust you destroy should not be obligated to forgive that. Bramblestar continued his duties as deputy and gave her the cold shoulder, and he had every single right to, at least in my opinion. Even then, he did forgive her waaaay faster than I would have had I been in his situation. I saw him giving her deputyship as a show of trust in her again, and knowing that when they’re together, sometimes they do genuinely make a good team. She was an experienced Warrior with mentorship skills and he wanted a deputy he trusted. This was his show of trust to her. Do I think he made the right choice? No, because rarely do deputy and leader mate pairings work well, and there were better choices than Squirrelflight at the time, but I do see why this choice was made. I think alot of people see everything Bramblestar does as manipulative and power-hungry…but honestly a majority of the time it’s him trying to extend trust and it going wrong, or him putting the entire clan above the thoughts and decisions of a singular cat, even if that cat is his mate. He can’t be biased if he wants to be a decent leader, and I think alot of people confuse that mindset with malice, which is unfortunate. I do understand your stance though, and I hope this doesn’t come off as malicious or anything!
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Nov 24, 2021 13:48:13 GMT -5
Yay . The BrambleSquirrel wars continue onwards.
I Find it perpetually mind-boggling that people continue to peg Brambleclaw as abusive and manipulative during OoTS because he gave Squirrelflight the cold shoulder. While the neglect and lack of attention unmistakably had dire consequences on Squirrelflight’s emotional and psychological state, she should of pensively thought over what a tremendously stupid, and unfathomably treacherous, and Dishonest, deceitful falsehood she was making , and fully considered the inevitable disastrous repercussions she would be confronted with upon exposure of her lies, of course she’s far too headstrong and impulsive to even think about those possibilities. And I also see people argue that Brambleclaw was too harsh with his punishment on Squirrelflight, when in actuality it’s clearly highlighted at the beginning of TFA(which I’ve just reread finally woah) that Brambleclaw never punished Squirrelflight for her devious actions. And Brambleclaw giving her the cold shoulder over it isn’t a punishment. It’s comparable to stabbing a hole in your tire and staring back in wonderment for it going flat, the tire isn’t punishing you, it’s just a direct reaction to your foolishness, which Brambleclaw refusing to speak to her is the direct correlation of having his heart broken.
I feel like some people either don’t fully understand and grasp the gravity of Squirrelflight’s deception and just how detrimental it is on a relationship.
Countless marriages are broken every year because of such deceit, and once said partners break it off, they may go years, decades even without speaking to the other if they even ever decide to communicate to that person again.
The fact that Brambleclaw even considers forgiving her at all is a miracle that she doesn’t deserve, nor is Brambleclaw by any means obligated to give , he could go the rest of his life without saying another word to her and it would be completely justified. And him not apologizing to Squirrelflight? For what exactly? It’s not brambleclaws fault that his mate backstabbed him, and there’s really nothing that he needs to rectify or warrants an apology. He’s not accountable or responsible for any of the Grievance that Squirrelflight suffered, because she brought it upon herself. And how is him making her deputy manipulative? Given it was merely to be taken as a gesture of goodwill and that he had forgiven her, and still trusted her, and wished to be friends again, fail to see the manipulation there.
Also need to remember that Brambleclaw never had intentions of getting back together with Squirrelflight ever, when Vicky Holmes wrote this, so don’t really see how it’s supposed to be a power move over her, since he fully intended of staying broken up with her. Just so happened that he still trusted her enough to entrust her with the deputyship position. Anyway I’m done rambling .
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