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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Nov 17, 2021 21:10:24 GMT -5
im gonna ramble about a topic that has me salty. this probably is written horribly but oh well, i wanna rant. again, im not trying to change anyone's minds, i am simply getting my opinion out because these thoughts have been stewing in me for a while and i figured i might as well let it out.
the cycle i am referring to is the cycle of background cats not getting personalities or screentime, and also protags not having friends in their own clans.
the longer the writers let old characters live past their time (aka longer than 3-4 arcs in my personal standards), the less the new generation gets their own time to shine in small ways (appearances, interactions with the protags/POVs, etc.).
and because of this, no one will talk about the new cats being born, but instead the fans will continue to talk about older cats, continuing this cycle of letting them live longer due to attachment and inability to move on.
old cats stay longer. new cats keep being born at the same time. too many cats. not everyone can be developed at least once in the background. because the only cats to have personalities r the older cats, people will continue to only care about them and not the new ones...but then these same people will complain when young cats die off screen or for no reason...
didn't we, the fandom, make it like this by not moving on from the old and onto the new? why do people think i fixate on current background cats? because i want this series to progress, move forward, out with the old, in with the new. you know the saying.
this is why im so frustrated with the series. the inability to move on and move forward. this means there is no effort put into the new generation, and because of that, new protags relationships suffer (relationships in general, but since POV is mainly protag only, this mainly effects them and what we see on page).
name one of bristlefrost's thunderclan friends outside of her immediate family (parents, siblings). i cant. can you? rootspring has turtle and kite, but he spends the whole arc on a stupid, underdeveloped romance. once again proving all these cats in forbidden relationships are selfish af and dont care about their family or friends (if they even HAVE any...).
firestar had a solid friend group in the first arc because the clan was small and a lot of cats back then got tiny moments here and there to showcase a personality trait, interaction with firestar or another important, relevant character, etc. firestar had graystripe, ravenpaw, sandstorm, yellowfang, cinderpelt, dustpelt, whitestorm, etc. he had on screen rappor with pretty much all cats if i remember right.
but then almost instantly in the second arc. there are no friend groups WITHIN ONES OWN CLAN. squirrelflight's thunderclan friends outside of her parents, sister, and mate brambleclaw? can u think of any besides ashfur (who idk if he even counts because he was a potential love interest instead of a normal friend). why didn't they establish a bond between squirrel and leaf and their immediate relative, whitewing? why was squirrel's only "friend" shrewpaw, but then he dies like right after showing they "were friends" ?
see, this has been a problem FROM THE BEGINNING. and it's only gotten worse.
cats dont give a crap about their families or mentors, and they dont have friends within their own clan.
lionblaze, hollyleaf, and jayfeather had "friends" but does it really count when they dont really hang out much? hollyleaf only had cinderheart (in fact,all 3 of them had some kind of relationship with cinderheart, but it was only bc of her broken leg which is dumb).
lionblaze didnt have friends in thunderclan that i remember unless u count his frenemy thing with berrynose? and jayfeather at least had briarlight, but as soon as cinderheart and poppyfrost stopped needing to interact with him, jayfeather stopped being on screen friends with them too (just like how leafpool's only friend sorreltail stopped being shown as her friend as soon as she got a mate and kits).
bristlefrost didnt give two craps when her mentor rosepetal died. when was the last meaningful mentor-apprentice on screen relationship? squirrelflight literally ditched hers to be a self righteous brat and join a journey she wasnt even a part of. leafpool and cinderpelt had a good relationship that mattered. but then from then on? lionblaze and ashfur hated eachother. jayfeather and leafpool's relationship is ok and fleshed out well. and we dont even get anything with holly and her mentor lol.
relationships only matter in this series if they are forbidden romance...which is contradictory because THEN the cats involved will only care about their forbidden love and NOT their family...how messed up is that?
protags need friends outside of plot relevant stuff. this would make background cats relevant and giv ethem development. and this can only happen if the older cats die when they're suposed to. again, cats should only stay around 3-4 arcs tops to prevent this overcrowding problem, where not everyone can get screentime anymore. in the first arc, majority of the cats got something at least once.
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Post by vectoring34 on Nov 17, 2021 21:48:27 GMT -5
I'm like 99% sure the real problem is that Firestar gets to monopolize his screentime while no one else does. This means he gets bare minimum TRIPLE the amount of screentime of other protagonists, sometimes even more with the likes of TNP where Squirrelflight and Brambleclaw don't always have a perspective. Squirrelflight only has her perspective in TWO BOOKS of her debut series, and one of those is divided with Leafpool and the other with Leafpool and Brambleclaw. This means Squirrelflight in reality only gets essentially 0.8 books to herself, while Firestar gets 6. That's an insane discrepancy, Firestar has quite literally over 7x as much pagetime as Squirrelflight does.
Trying to blame this on the old cast being too bloated is misguided. The fact that characters have smaller circles is almost certainly far more likely to be caused by the limited pagetime meaning that you have to be economical and can't describe every single little thing.
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Post by cable on Nov 17, 2021 22:19:16 GMT -5
blaming the fandom for this issue is pretty weird given the events of alitm showing that what fans think and want really doesnt matter. people have been begging to kill mistystar for ages and shes still around, blaming fans for liking properly developed characters is misdirecting it. thats on the writers/editors. i like background characters as much as the next guy but im still going to also enjoy the characters who have been given arcs and personalities.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Nov 17, 2021 22:27:48 GMT -5
This may be a controversial hot take or not I don't know . the strongest point in this series at it's foundation is character diversity and divisive drama, though not always handled the best. The plotlines and storytelling are definitely not of any stellar quality to write home about, with how poorly planned, ill-conceived and the apparent lack of forethought, and passion that is missing from much of the series as a whole.
and Forbidden Romances, morally gray and polarizing characters, terrible relationships and poorly conceived or underserved redemption arcs are the chief causes of discourse, controversy and drama online, which in turns generates sales. so removing either of these elements would require some form of an replacement, shaking up the preexisting formula. and things such as passionate character development, enthralling plots, character consistency, creating and maintaining healthy relationships between cats would require a fair amount of time and nurturement, and would inevitably would make the writing process of each book take considerably longer, resulting in fewer releases and sales in their minds. sadly many franchises are stuck in the same rut, "if it still sales, why change it?".
and apparently the Writing/editing team firmly believes that unless a character has a pertinent role revolving around the plot, they clearly need no personality, hence why so few cats are involved with the Protags, more cats that become close to them and integrated into the plot means more cats that require development, which takes time. so fewer relationships, fewer cats needed for the plot, fewer cats to personalize and means quicker writing process , thus more releases and $$$.
And I also think while many of the readers would love to see background characters receive screentime/personalities/development etc. most people still have enough nostalgia or attachment to older, established characters to deem the books redeemable enough to warrant to continue buying the new books, and waiting patiently for changes that will never happen, because unfortunately money is still being placed in Harpercollins pocket, and as long as the flow doesn't diminish, then there's really no reason for them to change anything. hence also why older characters endure for so long, cause if characters in the spotlight never die, then they don't need replenishing.
The old Saying dies hard " if its not Broken, then why fix it?". and unless sales drop to a point where HC would recognize it as broken. then it's never going to be fixed.
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Post by Spooky Alice on Nov 17, 2021 23:02:09 GMT -5
I do think there's some credence to blaming the fandom to some degree because in general nostalgia sells. But imo it's a pretty small degree.
But the editorial team doesn't seem to want to rock the boat too much in general. Almost like they don't really trust their writers to be able to pull off more interesting (or maybe even subversive) stories/characters. Doesn't this series not even have a story bible?
Big agree that I wish we'd off the old mainstays who are mostly there for nostalgia bait and have the team focus more on new characters who aren't, like, legacies. But that stuff is safe.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Nov 17, 2021 23:09:51 GMT -5
I do think there's some credence to blaming the fandom to some degree because in general nostalgia sells. But imo it's a pretty small degree. But the editorial team doesn't seem to want to rock the boat too much in general. Almost like they don't really trust their writers to be able to pull off more interesting (or maybe even subversive) stories/characters. Doesn't this series not even have a story bible? Big agree that I wish we'd off the old mainstays who are mostly there for nostalgia bait and have the team focus more on new characters who aren't, like, legacies. But that stuff is safe. i've had a problem with this writing/editing team for years by now. theres so many things they should be doing (lore keeping is the biggest one...do they KNOW how many consistency problems they have? they dont even care lol). the fixes can range from minor to large, but they just dont do ANY of them. they dont want to fix it. idk if its just laziness or sticking to a formula like some of the other comments on here said. it's just beyond frustrating to me. i used to be very positive and passionate about this series, and while i still enjoy parts of it, overall, its just gone downhill for me like many other things i used to like. idk why things i used to like are now going downhill in quality. is it me who is changing? is it the industry itself? idk.
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Post by epicstyle on Nov 17, 2021 23:36:16 GMT -5
I agree with what everyone has said, and I want to add that I think that a large part of the problem started after OOTS when the POV characters were split up into different clans. Before DOTC and AVOS, all of the main characters were in TC, which gave us plenty of time to get to know the characters. This was especially true in POT, which was much more character driven than any modern Warriors series. Almost every background character in that arc had a fun personality, and each of the main three had their own social circles. Although I love that other clans get to share the spotlight now, I think that needed to happen.
I think part of the problem is also that the last arc was extremely plot-driven. TBC was basically the opposite of POT, all plot and no character. I think the writers would benefit greatly from balancing these two story elements out, because they are both extremely important. Maybe spend the first book or two fleshing out the characters and setting, while sprinkling in bits of plot throughout? This would also solve the issue of dissolving the tension halfway through the arc that has been present since DOTC. There is a lot to consider here.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Nov 18, 2021 0:50:06 GMT -5
I do think there's some credence to blaming the fandom to some degree because in general nostalgia sells. But imo it's a pretty small degree. But the editorial team doesn't seem to want to rock the boat too much in general. Almost like they don't really trust their writers to be able to pull off more interesting (or maybe even subversive) stories/characters. Doesn't this series not even have a story bible? Big agree that I wish we'd off the old mainstays who are mostly there for nostalgia bait and have the team focus more on new characters who aren't, like, legacies. But that stuff is safe. i've had a problem with this writing/editing team for years by now. theres so many things they should be doing (lore keeping is the biggest one...do they KNOW how many consistency problems they have? they dont even care lol). the fixes can range from minor to large, but they just dont do ANY of them. they dont want to fix it. idk if its just laziness or sticking to a formula like some of the other comments on here said. it's just beyond frustrating to me. i used to be very positive and passionate about this series, and while i still enjoy parts of it, overall, its just gone downhill for me like many other things i used to like. idk why things i used to like are now going downhill in quality. is it me who is changing? is it the industry itself? idk. The series is such an convoluted mess by now, that it's practically impossible for them to shift through all the actual lore, fan lore, wikia etc to make an even decently cohesive Bible, at this point you'd basically need to completely reimagine the series and then create allegiances, family trees and all the other lore and compile it together from Book 1 and strictly follow it without straying away from it, but that's unlikely to ever happen. and now that they aren't just economically sustaining themselves with books being written, but have monopolized on Official merchandise, plushies , pins, shirts,. hoodies, tote bags, collectible figure's and other such memorabilia, which probably generates more profits then the Books themselves. they probably have a smaller budget for the writing team , and have clearly made bigger quotas for them to fill with how many more books get released nowadays compared to when the series first started, all the constraints probably just make it too difficult to attempt to create new characters that people will connect with , while also needing to meet deadlines.
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Post by Spooky Alice on Nov 18, 2021 2:02:54 GMT -5
i've had a problem with this writing/editing team for years by now. theres so many things they should be doing (lore keeping is the biggest one...do they KNOW how many consistency problems they have? they dont even care lol). the fixes can range from minor to large, but they just dont do ANY of them. they dont want to fix it. idk if its just laziness or sticking to a formula like some of the other comments on here said. it's just beyond frustrating to me. i used to be very positive and passionate about this series, and while i still enjoy parts of it, overall, its just gone downhill for me like many other things i used to like. idk why things i used to like are now going downhill in quality. is it me who is changing? is it the industry itself? idk. The series is such an convoluted mess by now, that it's practically impossible for them to shift through all the actual lore, fan lore, wikia etc to make an even decently cohesive Bible, at this point you'd basically need to completely reimagine he series and then create allegiances, family trees and all the other lore and compile it together from Book 1 and strictly follow it without straying away from it, but that's unlikely to ever happen. and now that they aren't just economically sustaining themselves with books being written, but have monopolized on Official merchandise, plushies , pins, shirts,. hoodies, tote bags, collectible figure's and other such memorabilia, which probably generates more profits then the Books themselves. they probably have a smaller budget for the writing team , and have clearly made bigger quotas for them to fill with how many more books get released nowadays compared to when the series first started, all the constraints probably just make it too difficult to attempt to create new characters that people will connect with , while also needing to meet deadlines. As someone who's been a comic fan (of the big two, no less, lmao) for years and years I don't think compiling a bible would be THAT much work. A lot of work, yeah sure, but it'd mostly be a matter of combing through what's been written already. It'd probably mean we'd get a soft reboot, but as people have said on this forum we probably should get one anyway. And as to the point of "am I changing? is the industry changing?" probably a bit of both, though I don't presume to know you, of course. Like I said in my initial post nostalgia sells, and thus things stagnate. And in a way harper collins is in a bit of a bind with how publishing is in danger of becoming a monopoly; they're the second biggest of the big five publishing houses, i believe, and i can't imagine they'd want to give up their corner on the market. the penguin random house/simon & shuster merger is unlikely to happen at this point, but the whole industry is a hot mess edit: also while i feel this goes without saying but the troubles within the publishing industry as a whole and monopolies and all that isn't anywhere close to a defense of the trajectory the series is on
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Post by seantheskyhunter on Nov 18, 2021 8:24:45 GMT -5
This can be annoying most of the time. I guess you're right somehow. This means that the new arc has to get a new villain. A Tom, shecat, elder, it doesn't matter what it is. It just has to be someone new
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Nov 18, 2021 9:42:23 GMT -5
The series is such an convoluted mess by now, that it's practically impossible for them to shift through all the actual lore, fan lore, wikia etc to make an even decently cohesive Bible, at this point you'd basically need to completely reimagine he series and then create allegiances, family trees and all the other lore and compile it together from Book 1 and strictly follow it without straying away from it, but that's unlikely to ever happen. and now that they aren't just economically sustaining themselves with books being written, but have monopolized on Official merchandise, plushies , pins, shirts,. hoodies, tote bags, collectible figure's and other such memorabilia, which probably generates more profits then the Books themselves. they probably have a smaller budget for the writing team , and have clearly made bigger quotas for them to fill with how many more books get released nowadays compared to when the series first started, all the constraints probably just make it too difficult to attempt to create new characters that people will connect with , while also needing to meet deadlines. As someone who's been a comic fan (of the big two, no less, lmao) for years and years I don't think compiling a bible would be THAT much work. A lot of work, yeah sure, but it'd mostly be a matter of combing through what's been written already. It'd probably mean we'd get a soft reboot, but as people have said on this forum we probably should get one anyway. And as to the point of "am I changing? is the industry changing?" probably a bit of both, though I don't presume to know you, of course. Like I said in my initial post nostalgia sells, and thus things stagnate. And in a way harper collins is in a bit of a bind with how publishing is in danger of becoming a monopoly; they're the second biggest of the big five publishing houses, i believe, and i can't imagine they'd want to give up their corner on the market. the penguin random house/simon & shuster merger is unlikely to happen at this point, but the whole industry is a hot mess edit: also while i feel this goes without saying but the troubles within the publishing industry as a whole and monopolies and all that isn't anywhere close to a defense of the trajectory the series is on oh I wasn’t using it for their defense. I’m as equally disgusted with the writing and downward trajectory this series has taken over the past decade. I was merely pointing out what are probably the biggest factors. And while they could look at older material to make the Bible, problem is the inconsistencies and retcons are so prevalent that eventually they’d have to decide which books to treat as Canon and which would need rewriting, and I’m pretty sure if they came out and said certain books were gonna be no longer considered canon, and were being rewritten. Hell would break lose. Cause the readers would more then likely want a day on which books stay and which ones get tarnished .
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