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Post by mymerlincat on Nov 14, 2021 14:37:12 GMT -5
Personally I don’t think he deserved the DF but I can see why other people might
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Post by lionblazex on Nov 14, 2021 15:02:19 GMT -5
If characters like Onestar,Blackstar,Mudclaw and Leopardstar can get into StarClan I don't understand why Juniperclaw can't. All the characters I mentioned did very moral questions things and while you can say most of them made up for it before dying so did Juniperclaw. He died saving four cats(Violetshine and her unborn kits as well as Shadowkit) three from a different clan the one he poisoned at that but the book seemed to only remember that he saved his cousin.
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Nov 14, 2021 15:13:36 GMT -5
Not really.
Yes, he poisoned SkyClan's freshkill pile in The Raging Storm so while it certainly put them in danger and could have ended much worse, the fact that only one warrior (Sparrowpelt) got sick but later recovered really did not warrant sending Jniperclaw to the Dark Forest for it. Someone on another thread pointed out that his last words might have been the reason for him getting punished with going to cat hell because it might imply him to not be sorry about potentially murdering a rival Clan in such a disgraceful manner but even then there are a lot of cats in StarClan who also weren't sorry for being foxhearts so it still does not seem very fair in regards to that.
Juniperclaw's last words were about his former leader instead of the cats he actually endangered:
"Tell Tigerstar I'm sorry." — Juniperclaw to Violetshine before accepting his death in The Raging Storm, page 313
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Nov 14, 2021 15:27:12 GMT -5
Considering he tried to poison an entire Clan, yes. Yes he did. Or at least some kind of Purgatory.
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Nov 14, 2021 15:47:11 GMT -5
Not really. Yes, he poisoned SkyClan's freshkill pile in The Raging Storm so while it certainly put them in danger and could have ended much worse, the fact that only one warrior (Sparrowpelt) got sick but later recovered really did not warrant sending Jniperclaw to the Dark Forest for it. Someone on another thread pointed out that his last words might have been the reason for him getting punished with going to cat hell because it might imply him to not be sorry about potentially murdering a rival Clan in such a disgraceful manner but even then there are a lot of cats in StarClan who also weren't sorry for being foxhearts so it still does not seem very fair in regards to that. Juniperclaw's last words were directed at his former leader instead of the cats he actually endangered: "Tell Tigerstar I'm sorry." — Juniperclaw to Violetshine before accepting his death in The Raging Storm, page 313 I think you might be referring to my comment, I was mostly just speculating because it really doesn't make sense why Juniperclaw is in the Dark Forest and cats like Willow Tail and Quick Water aren't. But that's not on Juniperclaw, that's more on the really weird, inconsistent system StarClan has set up. If anything, it should be the other way around: if Juniperclaw is in the Dark Forest, then the cats I mentioned should be there as well. Besides, just because other horrible cats have gone to StarClan or no one actually died doesn't make Juniperclaw's own actions any less heinous. They don't really matter and bringing them up at all is just whataboutism. But fine, Ashfur also never managed to kill anyone while he was alive (unless you count him indirectly taking one of Firestar's lived) and we all think he should've gone to the Dark Forest from the very beginning, right? The only difference is that Juniperclaw was actually remorseful for what he did and it's great he died a hero, but his last words should still be telling. Attempted murder is just as bad as actual murder. If that doesn't get a free pass in real life, then it shouldn't in a fictional series, either. At the very least, he definitely deserved to go to some kind of Purgatory.
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Post by cable on Nov 14, 2021 15:50:02 GMT -5
i like juniper a lot, but if his plan had succeeded, he would have killed kits, elders, and queens, and at the time of his death, he only seemed to regret that he disappointed tigerstar, not that he would have murdered tons of innocent cats. at time of death, he did deserve the dark forest.
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Nov 14, 2021 16:16:39 GMT -5
Not really. Yes, he poisoned SkyClan's freshkill pile in The Raging Storm so while it certainly put them in danger and could have ended much worse, the fact that only one warrior (Sparrowpelt) got sick but later recovered really did not warrant sending Jniperclaw to the Dark Forest for it. Someone on another thread pointed out that his last words might have been the reason for him getting punished with going to cat hell because it might imply him to not be sorry about potentially murdering a rival Clan in such a disgraceful manner but even then there are a lot of cats in StarClan who also weren't sorry for being foxhearts so it still does not seem very fair in regards to that. Juniperclaw's last words were directed at his former leader instead of the cats he actually endangered: "Tell Tigerstar I'm sorry." — Juniperclaw to Violetshine before accepting his death in The Raging Storm, page 313 I think you might be referring to my comment, I was mostly just speculating because it really doesn't make sense why Juniperclaw is in the Dark Forest and cats like Willow Tail and Quick Water aren't. But that's not on Juniperclaw, that's more on the really weird, inconsistent system StarClan has set up. If anything, it should be the other way around: if Juniperclaw is in the Dark Forest, then the cats I mentioned should be there as well. Besides, just because other horrible cats have gone to StarClan or no one actually died doesn't make Juniperclaw's own actions any less heinous. They don't really matter and bringing them up at all is just whataboutism. But fine, Ashfur also never managed to kill anyone while he was alive (unless you count him indirectly taking one of Firestar's lived) and we all think he should've gone to the Dark Forest from the very beginning, right? The only difference is that Juniperclaw was actually remorseful for what he did and it's great he died a hero, but his last words should still be telling. Attempted murder is just as bad as actual murder. If that doesn't get a free pass in real life, then it shouldn't in a fictional series, either. At the very least, he definitely deserved to go to some kind of Purgatory. I personally still think that Juniperclaw does not deserve to go to StarClan but also did not deserve the Dark Forest. So him being in some kind of in between purgatory/limbo situation really just seems way more fitting. He also thinks so in ALitM so there's at least that speaking for his own conscience:
"I don’t deserve a place in StarClan. I never will. But I owe them, and the living Clans, something."
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Post by lionblazex on Nov 14, 2021 16:19:01 GMT -5
Not really. Yes, he poisoned SkyClan's freshkill pile in The Raging Storm so while it certainly put them in danger and could have ended much worse, the fact that only one warrior (Sparrowpelt) got sick but later recovered really did not warrant sending Jniperclaw to the Dark Forest for it. Someone on another thread pointed out that his last words might have been the reason for him getting punished with going to cat hell because it might imply him to not be sorry about potentially murdering a rival Clan in such a disgraceful manner but even then there are a lot of cats in StarClan who also weren't sorry for being foxhearts so it still does not seem very fair in regards to that. Juniperclaw's last words were directed at his former leader instead of the cats he actually endangered: "Tell Tigerstar I'm sorry." — Juniperclaw to Violetshine before accepting his death in The Raging Storm, page 313 I think you might be referring to my comment, I was mostly just speculating because it really doesn't make sense why Juniperclaw is in the Dark Forest and cats like Willow Tail and Quick Water aren't. But that's not on Juniperclaw, that's more on the really weird, inconsistent system StarClan has set up. If anything, it should be the other way around: if Juniperclaw is in the Dark Forest, then the cats I mentioned should be there as well. This is really my issue of him being there and why I used the whataboutisms above. What Juniperclaw did is bad no question about it imo but him being in the DF just feels very inconsistent with how who goes to the DF and who doesn't has been portrayed until know. I don't really care about Juniperclaw as a character much but it feels like a big lore inconsistent and felt silly to see a character like Onestar( whose arguably just as bad if not worst)self righteously preaching to Juniperclaw.
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Nov 14, 2021 18:18:37 GMT -5
Eh, I'm kind of divided on it. He could have possibly killed many innocent cats through that stunt of poisoning the fresh-kill pile but also saved the lives of four cats. And the fact that Leopardstar and Onestar were also let in also shows how stupid StarClan's admission system is IMO. So yes, he deserved it but I'm also fine with him being a border guard.
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Post by NightFrostSun on Nov 14, 2021 18:34:37 GMT -5
No Juniperclaw did not deserve the dark forest. As of the A Light in the Mist Star Clan agrees. They know they made a mistake sending him to the dark forest and sending Ashfur to Star Clan. That's why they made him the Guardian of the Stars they trust him to do the right thing and guard the tunnel connecting the two afterlife's. Star Clan has successfully created a place for cats in need and desire of atoning. Eventually probably in the next few arcs or so Juniperclaw will earn his place in Star Clan and the guarding job will go to another deserving cat in atonement. I love Juniperclaw. He and Shadowsight are my favorite characters. I love their interactions with each other. I personally hope that we will get a super edition, novella, or graphic novel with Juniperclaw as the guardian of the stars if not he will definitely be an important figure in the next arcs.. I hope Juniperclaw since he is neutral for now can still communicate with his cousin. I can see monthly atonement support meetings. I personally love Juniperclaw and how he is like the complete opposite of Ashfur. Juniperclaw is a cat full of regret, love, and desire for atonement accidentally sent to the dark forest. Ashfur is a cat who faked his regret and desire to atone and instead planned revenge that nearly destroyed all of the clans sent to Star Clan. Juniperclaw will now do what Ashfur pretended to do atone as a guardian of Star Clan and eventually earn his place in Star Clan and be reunited with his family. I for one am really looking forward to this aspect of the story and hopefully for more atoning former dark forest, clan cats.
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Post by cygna on Nov 14, 2021 19:04:12 GMT -5
If Blackstar gets to enjoy cat heaven then Juniperclaw should get to as well.
StarClan should have given him the same opportunity the gave Ashfur(considering they thought he was a chill guy back then) of not having the time to change himself during life due to his early death, especially since he died saving lives.
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Post by Spooky Alice on Nov 14, 2021 19:17:53 GMT -5
I voted no but honestly I'm pretty divided. On one hand what he did was heinous, on the other Starclan is so wildly inconsistent about who gets where that it feels unfair.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Nov 14, 2021 20:12:06 GMT -5
I think this is kind of a weird question given the most recent book. What he did was pretty unforgivable, but it just highlights why I wish there was a way DF cats could get into Starclan or that there was some kind of purgatory for morally grey cats.
Because now? No. When he first died? Yes.
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Post by Spooky Alice on Nov 14, 2021 20:22:42 GMT -5
I think this is kind of a weird question given the most recent book. What he did was pretty unforgivable, but it just highlights why I wish there was a way DF cats could get into Starclan or that there was some kind of purgatory for morally grey cats. Because now? No. When he first died? Yes. Honestly I kind of wish that his duty guarding the way between starclan and the dark forest was a trial that would grant him access to starclan
As it is I find his fate to be a little horrific
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Nov 14, 2021 22:29:40 GMT -5
I think this is kind of a weird question given the most recent book. What he did was pretty unforgivable, but it just highlights why I wish there was a way DF cats could get into Starclan or that there was some kind of purgatory for morally grey cats. Because now? No. When he first died? Yes. Honestly I kind of wish that his duty guarding the way between starclan and the dark forest was a trial that would grant him access to starclan
As it is I find his fate to be a little horrific I think a few of those cats deserved a second chance - mainly Juniperclaw and Silverhawk
You get the feeling that those two really regret what they've done. I feel saying 'It doesn't matter if they're sorry after death' isn't necessarily fair.
Some of these cats didn't get a chance to be sorry before death like a cat like Leopardstar or Blackstar did. If Blackstar had died before becoming leader, he would have gone to the DF and probably Leopardstar too.
I feel like there should be a way to graduate from the DF
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Post by platinum blond death on Nov 15, 2021 1:02:31 GMT -5
at the time of death, he literally had poisoned an entire Clan's fresh-kill pile, which is a horrible thing to do. however he seems to be sorry for what he did. so i agree with ottersplash, he deserved the df when he died, but not in alim. and like while it's not up to cats to forgive him, especially the ones he hurt, cats can change and while i don't agree with letting him into starclan, i think the assertion that being sorry now doesn't matter, because it kinda does? everyone changes, and how a person feels now definitely should be taken into account, which is why i think the starclan cats were being a tad harsh.
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Post by Chicken on Nov 18, 2021 12:22:31 GMT -5
Absolutely not. I know he did a terrible thing, but this series has shown he's an impulsive cat who doesn't think things through, I'm not saying that excuses what he did, but it can kind of explain it. He's by no means a malicious cat, he was just trying to do what he thought was best for ShadowClan, once again, not excusing what he did. However, unlike other cats who didn't go to the Dark Forest, like Onestar, who was actively willing to let a whole clan die out, who broke the code before then, by getting into a forbidden relationship, who waged a war on ThunderClan for no reason, a war where elders and kits could have gotten hurt. Or like Blackstar who straight up killed an elder and a deputy, I thought his crime paled in comparison. There's also the fact that 2/3 of the POV characters wouldn't even be alive if not for Juniperclaw. Remember, he didn't just save Shadowkit, but he also saved a pregnant Violetshine. Maybe purgatory for a couple of moons, but not the DF. Poor guy, I hope he at least got to make amends with Strikestone and the rest of his family.
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