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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Nov 9, 2021 16:34:29 GMT -5
During Lost Stars, Bramblestar begins to act off right before he got really sick. Yet at that time he hadn't died. Was the sickness just ashfur trying to take control of Bramblestar's mind?
If so that's pretty weird
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Post by Flanoir on Nov 9, 2021 16:48:13 GMT -5
I wondered as well, and came to the same conclusion. There's also the fact that Ashfur knew that Bramblestar was going to get sick. While he didn't have full control over the body until Bramblestar left it after loosing a life, he was definitely able to have some kind of influence.
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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Nov 9, 2021 16:51:42 GMT -5
I wondered as well, and came to the same conclusion. There's also the fact that Ashfur knew that Bramblestar was going to get sick. While he didn't have full control over the body until Bramblestar left it after loosing a life, he was definitely able to have some kind of influence. Yeah, thats probably it. Maybe with a weaker body it was easier to control.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Nov 9, 2021 17:03:20 GMT -5
there is no logical explanation for anything that sets up all of TBC which is why i say its the most garbage arc ever. there's no explanations for ashfur's powers or how he figured any of this out. this is just another plot hole.
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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Nov 9, 2021 17:14:41 GMT -5
there is no logical explanation for anything that sets up all of TBC which is why i say its the most garbage arc ever. there's no explanations for ashfur's powers or how he figured any of this out. this is just another plot hole. One to add to the many in Warriors. At least we might get some good fanfiction out of it
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Post by vectoring34 on Nov 9, 2021 17:32:23 GMT -5
Ashfur had already infected Brambleclaw by that point, we know Rootspring felt a dark presence in him at the Gathering. Ashfur didn't have full control at that point, but it was evidently enough to cause bad things to happen to him.
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Post by Hollyfall on Nov 9, 2021 18:21:36 GMT -5
Ashfur had already infected Brambleclaw by that point, we know Rootspring felt a dark presence in him at the Gathering. Ashfur didn't have full control at that point, but it was evidently enough to cause bad things to happen to him. Adding onto this, there's also the fact that Bramblestar began to show "symptoms" of Ashfur's possession before he even died, such as snapping at Squirrelflight, being rude to ThunderClan, etc. Rootspring also noticed a shadow of sorts hanging around Bramblestar when Rootspring was bringing prey to thank Bristlefrost. Like you said, Ashfur is clearly there, but doesn't have full control quite yet. The illness was the final step in Ashfur taking over his body once it killed him and forced his spirit out.
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Asexual
#07B04C
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Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Nov 9, 2021 19:20:00 GMT -5
It was probably was because Bramblestar's body was reacting to the new spirit inside him? That's the best explanation I can come up with anyway.
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Post by goldenwish on Nov 9, 2021 19:43:40 GMT -5
Yeah I understand people saying that Ashfur started gradually taking over before he died when Bramblestar was showing unusual symptoms, but the question is how would that happen? I thought the whole premise was that when Bramblestar lost a life, Ashfur was able to take advantage and get control of his body since there was no access to StarClan at the time to help him transition to his next life. If Ashfur was able to start taking over before he even died, I don’t think an explanation was ever given.
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Post by vectoring34 on Nov 9, 2021 19:58:53 GMT -5
Yeah I understand people saying that Ashfur started gradually taking over before he died when Bramblestar was showing unusual symptoms, but the question is how would that happen? I thought the whole premise was that when Bramblestar lost a life, Ashfur was able to take advantage and get control of his body since there was no access to StarClan at the time to help him transition to his next life. If Ashfur was able to start taking over before he even died, I don’t think an explanation was ever given. Ashfur needs you to die to take you over, but he can still poison and affect you with his soul. This is made very clear with how he tainted Shadowsight in ALITM. And that was just a fragment of his being, not his full power which he reserved for Brambleclaw. He was able to give him his seizures it seems, it's not too far removed to say that his presence in Brambleclaw's body would cause something similar.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Nov 9, 2021 20:20:33 GMT -5
there is no logical explanation for anything that sets up all of TBC which is why i say its the most garbage arc ever. there's no explanations for ashfur's powers or how he figured any of this out. this is just another plot hole. One to add to the many in Warriors. At least we might get some good fanfiction out of it TBC is so bad that it itself already feels like a bad fanfic lol
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Nov 9, 2021 20:43:29 GMT -5
The broken code honestly could use an entire guide/booklet or instructors manual in itself , to explain exactly how ashfur got his powers , how he was able to close the pathway between starclan and the dark forest , creating the imbalance , disrupting there connection to the living which is the source of there power , and how he weakened them , which also needs to explained why he wasn’t effected since technically he’s a starclan warrior.
How he attuned himself to the dark forest , and was able to manipulate it with his malicious thoughts and festering hatred , and why someone else in the DF hasn’t been able to achieve this before eons ago, since there’s plenty that have had loads of time to allow there hatred, and thirst for vengeance and for the Dark forests twisted nature to fully consume whoever , and for them to gain control of this mystical powers , mindwarping , mind control etc.
or how exactly creating a barrier of brambles and vines to block the pathway between the two afterlife’s causes them fold and collapse to begin with. And how exactly the negative/doomsday thought are apparently powerful enough To reinforce the barrier so it’s impenetrable .
And what exactly did he do to Taint/poison bramblestar in the first place , so that he fell gravely ill , or how did he slip seemlessly into his body undetected , without Starclan noticing , when clearly they still have a powerful enough connection to the living to return a leaders spirit to there body , to you know , live out there next life .
You know maybe just a The broken Code World-building Dictionary given us complete ,in-depth cohesive reasoning behind everything that occurs , and every new element that just sprang forth out of the dirt , and just was expected to be well received .
And some definitive rules revolving around all this dark magic spawned in the afterlife , any limitations it has , weaknesses , things that can be done to nullify its effects , and other restrictions it has .
You know basically just a 500 page Bible for The broken code would probably suffice in explaining all these radical changes .
Edit: and we seriously need an explanation for why the sisters are able to establish any connection to the dark forest , and are capable of teleporting cats spirits into the realm of the undead.
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Post by vectoring34 on Nov 9, 2021 21:07:11 GMT -5
The broken code honestly could use an entire guide/booklet or instructors manual in itself , to explain exactly how ashfur got his powers , how he was able to close the pathway between starclan and the dark forest , creating the imbalance , disrupting there connection to the living which is the source of there power , and how he weakened them , which also needs to explained why he wasn’t effected since technically he’s a starclan warrior. How he attuned himself to the dark forest , and was able to manipulate it with his malicious thoughts and festering hatred , and why someone else in the DF hasn’t been able to achieve this before eons ago, since there’s plenty that have had loads of time to allow there hatred, and thirst for vengeance and for the Dark forests twisted nature to fully consume whoever , and for them to gain control of this mystical powers , mindwarping , mind control etc. or how exactly creating a barrier of brambles and vines to block the pathway between the two afterlife’s causes them fold and collapse to begin with. And how exactly the negative/doomsday thought are apparently powerful enough To reinforce the barrier so it’s impenetrable . And what exactly did he do to Taint/poison bramblestar in the first place , so that he fell gravely ill , or how did he slip seemlessly into his body undetected , without Starclan noticing , when clearly they still have a powerful enough connection to the living to return a leaders spirit to there body , to you know , live out there next life . You know maybe just a The broken Code World-building Dictionary given us complete ,in-depth cohesive reasoning behind everything that occurs , and every new element that just sprang forth out of the dirt , and just was expected to be well received . And some definitive rules revolving around all this dark magic spawned in the afterlife , any limitations it has , weaknesses , things that can be done to nullify its effects , and other restrictions it has . You know basically just a 500 page Bible for The broken code would probably suffice in explaining all these radical changes . Edit: and we seriously need an explanation for why the sisters are able to establish any connection to the dark forest , and are capable of teleporting cats spirits into the realm of the undead. Ashfur's powers are just Starclan powers but exaggerated and twisted. He created the imbalance himself by mustering all of his hatred and will and sealing the Dark Forest from Starclan after creating his secret path and doing the same to the Moonpool. Those don't require any special power, merely someone with the proper evil will and determination. As far as Ashfur being unaffected, that was true for the moment, but it was never a blanket rule for Starclan. Only some of their warriors were diminishing. Starclan was in the PROCESS of being destroyed, it hadn't been destroyed yet. Why would any other DF cat do what Ashfur did? Ashfur's plan entailed destroying the Dark Forest too, it would be like committing suicide for them. Ashfur was insane and didn't care, but the likes of Tigerstar, Brokenstar, or what have you certainly don't want to die without completing their objectives. The powers Ashfur wields aren't due to manipulating the Dark Forest's energies, they're due to being a Starclan cat and having sole authority over the boundary between the living and dead due to the barriers he created. Those barriers though only work because he was able to damage both the Starclan and Dark Forest side, something no Dark Forest cat would have been able to do due to being unable to enter Starclan's hunting grounds (while the reverse is not true). The barriers seem to be a case of the very inherent nature of these worlds being corruptive. We saw that in OOTS, where the presence of Dark Forest cats in the living world was causing the ground to transform into that of the Dark Forest. Following this logic, so much hatred at such a vital point would do the job in corrupting the world. As for why it's that strong, I figure it's simply a case of superhuman willpower combined with right place, right time. Ashfur entered Brambleclaw's body using Shadowsight as a conduit and had already been given Starclan's blessing. By the time he jumped bodies, it was too late already for Starclan to do much about it. As far as Starclan sending leaders back to their bodies, that probably has more to do with the strength of a leader's own soul than anything else. Remember, Ashfur struggled to keep Brambleclaw's spirit under control due to having more lives in it. It's easy to assume that Harestar simply had enough lives to do the same. Plus, Ashfur wasn't exactly focusing on him at that point.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Nov 10, 2021 1:42:12 GMT -5
The broken code honestly could use an entire guide/booklet or instructors manual in itself , to explain exactly how ashfur got his powers , how he was able to close the pathway between starclan and the dark forest , creating the imbalance , disrupting there connection to the living which is the source of there power , and how he weakened them , which also needs to explained why he wasn’t effected since technically he’s a starclan warrior. How he attuned himself to the dark forest , and was able to manipulate it with his malicious thoughts and festering hatred , and why someone else in the DF hasn’t been able to achieve this before eons ago, since there’s plenty that have had loads of time to allow there hatred, and thirst for vengeance and for the Dark forests twisted nature to fully consume whoever , and for them to gain control of this mystical powers , mindwarping , mind control etc. or how exactly creating a barrier of brambles and vines to block the pathway between the two afterlife’s causes them fold and collapse to begin with. And how exactly the negative/doomsday thought are apparently powerful enough To reinforce the barrier so it’s impenetrable . And what exactly did he do to Taint/poison bramblestar in the first place , so that he fell gravely ill , or how did he slip seemlessly into his body undetected , without Starclan noticing , when clearly they still have a powerful enough connection to the living to return a leaders spirit to there body , to you know , live out there next life . You know maybe just a The broken Code World-building Dictionary given us complete ,in-depth cohesive reasoning behind everything that occurs , and every new element that just sprang forth out of the dirt , and just was expected to be well received . And some definitive rules revolving around all this dark magic spawned in the afterlife , any limitations it has , weaknesses , things that can be done to nullify its effects , and other restrictions it has . You know basically just a 500 page Bible for The broken code would probably suffice in explaining all these radical changes . Edit: and we seriously need an explanation for why the sisters are able to establish any connection to the dark forest , and are capable of teleporting cats spirits into the realm of the undead. Ashfur's powers are just Starclan powers but exaggerated and twisted. He created the imbalance himself by mustering all of his hatred and will and sealing the Dark Forest from Starclan after creating his secret path and doing the same to the Moonpool. Those don't require any special power, merely someone with the proper evil will and determination. As far as Ashfur being unaffected, that was true for the moment, but it was never a blanket rule for Starclan. Only some of their warriors were diminishing. Starclan was in the PROCESS of being destroyed, it hadn't been destroyed yet. Why would any other DF cat do what Ashfur did? Ashfur's plan entailed destroying the Dark Forest too, it would be like committing suicide for them. Ashfur was insane and didn't care, but the likes of Tigerstar, Brokenstar, or what have you certainly don't want to die without completing their objectives. The powers Ashfur wields aren't due to manipulating the Dark Forest's energies, they're due to being a Starclan cat and having sole authority over the boundary between the living and dead due to the barriers he created. Those barriers though only work because he was able to damage both the Starclan and Dark Forest side, something no Dark Forest cat would have been able to do due to being unable to enter Starclan's hunting grounds (while the reverse is not true). The barriers seem to be a case of the very inherent nature of these worlds being corruptive. We saw that in OOTS, where the presence of Dark Forest cats in the living world was causing the ground to transform into that of the Dark Forest. Following this logic, so much hatred at such a vital point would do the job in corrupting the world. As for why it's that strong, I figure it's simply a case of superhuman willpower combined with right place, right time. Ashfur entered Brambleclaw's body using Shadowsight as a conduit and had already been given Starclan's blessing. By the time he jumped bodies, it was too late already for Starclan to do much about it. As far as Starclan sending leaders back to their bodies, that probably has more to do with the strength of a leader's own soul than anything else. Remember, Ashfur struggled to keep Brambleclaw's spirit under control due to having more lives in it. It's easy to assume that Harestar simply had enough lives to do the same. Plus, Ashfur wasn't exactly focusing on him at that point. 1. The fact that Ashfurs powers are Starclans powers Blown stupendously out of proportion far beyond their limitations of what they’ve ever done in the past alone deserves an elaborate explanation. And why sealing the Dark Forest from starclan would create an imbalance that would cause the 2 realms to begin disappearing and collapsing into ruin. And Ashfur being starclan cat, and essentially cutting himself off from them, would/should have weakened his powers or nullified them, since he’s blocked himself from his Source. 2. The dark forest Cats and starclan have no preexisting knowledge or experience with anything that occurs with their realms being sealed off from the other, so they’d be oblivious to the possibility that it would imbalance or destroy their worlds if they embarked on a similar path as Ashfur , so they wouldn’t be held back by any lingering fears that they’d possibly destroy themselves. And what exactly gives him this sole authority over the boundary between the 2 realms? If sealing starclan off from the dark forest is supposed to obscure there connection to the living world , then with Ashfur being a starclan cat it would also Venerate and Obscure his connection to the living world , or are we supposed to believe he remains immune to the effects caused by this obstruction ?, and considering he just chiseled a Brand new entrance through spiritual space to create pathway that only he knew about , what’s preventing a Dark Forest cat from tunneling into starclan an causing the same disruptive damage ? , and what is preventing the remaining collective community of starclan from simply removing the barrier over the moonpool, and reversing the damage with these exaggerated powers they now possess apparently ?. 3.I’m not sure what you're getting about the barriers and the inherent nature of the dark forest being corrupted. Yes, we saw the presence of the dark forest cats in the living world giving off there twisted, sinuous influence and causing the ground to morph into the decayed, twisted reflection of the DF. But considering that the entire massed army of dark forest cats manifesting themselves into the living world has less influence collectively, then ashfur does by himself, begs the question.” Are we supposed to believe that he somehow has more festering hatred, then all the other evil cats in the DF combined?”. And superhuman willpower combined with right place, right time isn’t a definitive, rationalized explanation, it’s just “well, I decided it to be that way, no reason to know why it’s that way “. Which is incredibly lazy, uninspired, half-baked writing imo . 4. And how ashfur is capable of using shadowsight as conduit is just another plothole that’s given no definitive elucidation to exactly how he was able to pull it off. And starclans blessing is hardly clarification, since he’s sealed them, and disrupted their powers/authority over the living world, which would be defer ashfur as well unless he’s somehow, inexplicably able to channel their energy, through the barriers and whatnot. And it’s been established since TPB that when a leader does, there spirit remains in Starclan briefly, while they ameliorate their fatal wound, and then Starclan sends there soul back to their body to live out their next life. So, we know that starclan is definitely involved in the whole process. And they definitely would have detected ashfur usurping Bramblestars body, and with the fluctuating degrees of power they possess in TBC they’d more than likely be perfectly competent in preventing him taking over his body. Now if your able to overlook these glaring problems/plotholes and writing/universe inconsistencies then you're a hell lot more tolerant then I am, cause I’m a freakin stickler. End of the day, the overwhelming quantity of plotholes that riddle this arc like Swiss cheese, and terrible writing combined with the Editors shamelessly being able to rewrite the rules the universe is supposed to follow. and their inability to maintain a consistent, believable world that the reader can get connected, and emotionally invested to on a whim, with the fact that they give no elucidation or clarification beyond a very superficial degree of depth, and everything’s so briefly glossed over, that it makes everything very imbalanced. And the conflicts/struggles very disingenuous to the point it makes it completely impossible for me to take it seriously, or feel anything on an emotional level. If they suddenly want to transform warriors into a witchcraft/sorcery and wizardry type series like LoTRs or Harry Potter, then they need to establish a strict set of rules that the universe must follow like most other Series of the genre. But of course, I don’t read warriors for that type of literature, and if I’m craving a more romp Fantasy style adventure, I’m going to read from the dozens of authors that handle them 100x better.
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Post by vectoring34 on Nov 10, 2021 8:19:30 GMT -5
Ashfur's powers are just Starclan powers but exaggerated and twisted. He created the imbalance himself by mustering all of his hatred and will and sealing the Dark Forest from Starclan after creating his secret path and doing the same to the Moonpool. Those don't require any special power, merely someone with the proper evil will and determination. As far as Ashfur being unaffected, that was true for the moment, but it was never a blanket rule for Starclan. Only some of their warriors were diminishing. Starclan was in the PROCESS of being destroyed, it hadn't been destroyed yet. Why would any other DF cat do what Ashfur did? Ashfur's plan entailed destroying the Dark Forest too, it would be like committing suicide for them. Ashfur was insane and didn't care, but the likes of Tigerstar, Brokenstar, or what have you certainly don't want to die without completing their objectives. The powers Ashfur wields aren't due to manipulating the Dark Forest's energies, they're due to being a Starclan cat and having sole authority over the boundary between the living and dead due to the barriers he created. Those barriers though only work because he was able to damage both the Starclan and Dark Forest side, something no Dark Forest cat would have been able to do due to being unable to enter Starclan's hunting grounds (while the reverse is not true). The barriers seem to be a case of the very inherent nature of these worlds being corruptive. We saw that in OOTS, where the presence of Dark Forest cats in the living world was causing the ground to transform into that of the Dark Forest. Following this logic, so much hatred at such a vital point would do the job in corrupting the world. As for why it's that strong, I figure it's simply a case of superhuman willpower combined with right place, right time. Ashfur entered Brambleclaw's body using Shadowsight as a conduit and had already been given Starclan's blessing. By the time he jumped bodies, it was too late already for Starclan to do much about it. As far as Starclan sending leaders back to their bodies, that probably has more to do with the strength of a leader's own soul than anything else. Remember, Ashfur struggled to keep Brambleclaw's spirit under control due to having more lives in it. It's easy to assume that Harestar simply had enough lives to do the same. Plus, Ashfur wasn't exactly focusing on him at that point. 1. The fact that Ashfurs powers are Starclans powers Blown stupendously out of proportion far beyond there limitations of what they’ve ever done in the past alone deserves an elaborate explanation . And why sealing the Dark Forest from starclan would create an imbalance that would cause the 2 realms to begin disappearing and collapsing into ruin. And Ashfur being starclan cat , and essentially cutting himself off from them , would/should of weakened his powers or nullified them , since he’s blocked himself from his Source . 2. The dark forest Cats and starclan have no preexisting knowledge or experience with anything that occurs with there realms being sealed off from the other , so they’d be oblivious to the possibility that it would imbalance or destroy there worlds if they embarked on a similar path as Ashfur , so they wouldn’t be held back by any lingering fears that they’d possibly destroy themselves . And what exactly gives him this sole authority over the boundary between the 2 realms ? If sealing starclan off from the dark forest is supposed to obscure there connection to the living world , then with Ashfur being a starclan cat it would also Venerate and Obscure his connection to the living world , or are we supposed to believe he remains immune to the effects caused by this obstruction ?, and considering he just chiseled a Brand new entrance through spiritual space to create pathway that only he knew about , what’s preventing a Dark Forest cat from tunneling into starclan an causing the same disruptive damage ? , and what is preventing the remaining collective community of starclan from simply removing the barrier over the moonpool, and reversing the damage with these exaggerated powers they now possess apparently ?. 3.I’m not sure what your getting about the barriers and the inherent nature of the dark forest being corrupted . Yes we saw the presence of the dark forest cats in the living world giving off there twisted , sinuous influence and causing the ground to morph into the decayed , twisted reflection of the DF. But considering that the entire massed army of dark forest cats manifesting themselves into the living world has less influence collectively, then ashfur does by himself , begs the question .” Are we supposed to believe that he somehow has more festering hatred , then all the other evil cats in the DF combined?”. And superhuman willpower combined with right place, right time isn’t a definitive , rationalized explanation , it’s just “well , I decided it to be that way , no reason to know why it’s that way “. Which is incredibly lazy, uninspired, half-baked writing imo . 4. And how ashfur is capable of using shadowsight as conduit is just another plothole that’s given no definitive elucidation to exactly how he was able to pull it off . And starclans blessing is hardly clarification , since he’s sealed them , and disrupted there powers/authority over the living world , which would be defer ashfur as well unless he’s somehow, inexplicably able to channel there energy , through the barriers and whatnot . And it’s been established since TPB that when a leader does , there spirit remains in Starclan briefly , while they ameliorate there fatal wound , and then Starclan sends there soul back to there body to live out there next life . So we know that starclan is definitely involved in the whole process . And they definitely would of detected ashfur usurping Bramblestars body , and with the fluctuating degrees of power they possess in TBC they’d more then likely be perfectly competent in preventing him taking over his body . Now if your able to overlook these glaring problems/plotholes and writing/universe inconsistencies then your a hell lot more tolerant then I am , cause I’m a freakin stickler . End of the day , the overwhelming quantity of plotholes that riddle this arc like Swiss cheese , and terrible writing combined with the Editors shamelessly being able to rewrite the rules the universe are supposed to follow , to maintain a consistent , believable world that the reader can get connected, and emotionally investedto on a whim , with the fact that they give no elucidation or clarification beyond a very superficial degree of depth , and everything’s so briefly glossed over , that it makes everything very imbalanced . And the conflicts/struggles very disingenuous to the point it makes it completely impossible for me to take it seriously , or feel anything on an emotional level . If they suddenly want to transform warriors into a witchcraft/sorcery and wizardry type series like LoTRs or Harry Potter , then they need to establish a strict set of rules that the universe must follow like every other Series of tha genre . But of course I don’t read warriors for that type of literature , and if I’m craving a more romp Fantasy style adventure , I’m going to read from the dozens of authors that handle them 100x better . 1. None of what Ashfur does is actually beyond what Starclan cats can usually do, it's just used for an evil purpose. Possession we have seen and control over the dead cats is an extension of this, just easier because they're weak shades after being sealed off from the afterlife and only let in by his will. Again, not all Starclan cats were weak at the time of the story. It's entirely possible that Ashfur would have eventually become too weak to maintain his grip, but by that point it seems like it would have been too late to stop the chain reaction that was engulfing the afterlife. 2. The DF cats and Starclan did KNOW that the two realms need to be in balance or else bad things will happen. They may not know exactly what, but they knew the basic concept. That's why Ashfur had to promise the DF cats a home in the living world before he could carry out his plan. It's also why the earlier DF plan with Tigerstar and co. was less self-destructive. They planned to kill the Starclan cats, yes, but they intended to simply conquer its realm for themselves. What Ashfur did was way more dangerous, in that he separated the dimensions entirely. Ashfur has sole authority over this barrier because he's the one that made it. Finders-keepers and all that definitely applies here. As for Ashfur's tunnel, it seems as though Starclan cats can go to the DF but the reverse is not so easy. This is made clear in OOTS and then reiterated further here, where Spottedleaf can casually travel to the DF but the DF cats can't just bumrush Starclan through the woods. As for Starclan undoing his barrier, it seems like it matters which side of the barrier you're actually on in order to do that. Besides, what do Starclan cats have to hope for? They already have everything they could ever want; they don't really have much to hope for and without their viewing pool, they can't even hope for the living world very effectively because they're out of the loop. 3. Is it so impossible that Ashfur had so much will? You cite later in your post other fantasy series, but they do the exact same thing. Why is Voldemort the most powerful wizard, so far above even trained Aurors or what have you? Why is it that Tom Bombadil can just laugh off the One Ring and play with it like it's a toy? Asking the reader to believe Ashfur was just the one with enough will to do this isn't hard to believe. And I don't think it even asks you to do that. It asks you to believe that he can mimic just a fraction of what the DF cats were doing (being they were corrupting an entire other world) over a space of what, a few meters? He used choke points and he used them well. 4. I don't see what's complex about the Shadowsight issue. Ashfur got their blessing beforehand, sealed his barrier, and then under their noses inhabited Shadowsight and then hopped to Bramblestar's body. Once Bramblestar died, Ashfur took him over and kicked out the rest of his body. At no point could Starclan stop him because he'd already blocked the path once he'd dropped down to earth and his own powers remained intact because it wasn't like every Starclan cat was losing their strength either, it was still early. Bramblestar's own soul briefly going to Starclan is irrelevant, because the path a leader's soul takes isn't one that Starclan can follow back down. He'd just get a Harestar esque experience of being in that weird, in-between and then being lurched back to his body. Have you ever read LOTR or Harry Potter? Those series are infamous for being "soft magic" where nothing is explained and there are no real rules for magic, I have no idea why you're bringing that up as a counterexample when those are actually EXACTLY an example of how you can have a fine story without explaining literally every single magical thing that happens or the limitations of said magic. At no point in LOTR does Gandalf just sit down and go "well I can only cast one fireworks spell per day and I can't just call up my bros the eagles to take us to Mordor". It's just taken for granted as part of the magical world why he does things the way he does. Harry Potter is even worse about this. Why do people use Avada Kedavra, which can be dodged, instead of using insta-hit curses like the ones from the earlier books? How is it that the love-sacrifice thing which saved Harry even works? We never get answers to that but it's not really needed. You CAN have a "hard magic" fantasy world like Sanderson's where everything is explained, but acting as though that is inherently superior to soft magic rubs me the wrong way.
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Post by Goldy from Dappleclan on Nov 10, 2021 11:32:33 GMT -5
Yeah I'm extremely annoyed I really went through six books of this garbage and they never even bothered explaining how Ashfur could control spirit cats, even though it was such a big deal
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Nov 11, 2021 0:01:27 GMT -5
1. The fact that Ashfurs powers are Starclans powers Blown stupendously out of proportion far beyond there limitations of what they’ve ever done in the past alone deserves an elaborate explanation . And why sealing the Dark Forest from starclan would create an imbalance that would cause the 2 realms to begin disappearing and collapsing into ruin. And Ashfur being starclan cat , and essentially cutting himself off from them , would/should of weakened his powers or nullified them , since he’s blocked himself from his Source . 2. The dark forest Cats and starclan have no preexisting knowledge or experience with anything that occurs with there realms being sealed off from the other , so they’d be oblivious to the possibility that it would imbalance or destroy there worlds if they embarked on a similar path as Ashfur , so they wouldn’t be held back by any lingering fears that they’d possibly destroy themselves . And what exactly gives him this sole authority over the boundary between the 2 realms ? If sealing starclan off from the dark forest is supposed to obscure there connection to the living world , then with Ashfur being a starclan cat it would also Venerate and Obscure his connection to the living world , or are we supposed to believe he remains immune to the effects caused by this obstruction ?, and considering he just chiseled a Brand new entrance through spiritual space to create pathway that only he knew about , what’s preventing a Dark Forest cat from tunneling into starclan an causing the same disruptive damage ? , and what is preventing the remaining collective community of starclan from simply removing the barrier over the moonpool, and reversing the damage with these exaggerated powers they now possess apparently ?. 3.I’m not sure what your getting about the barriers and the inherent nature of the dark forest being corrupted . Yes we saw the presence of the dark forest cats in the living world giving off there twisted , sinuous influence and causing the ground to morph into the decayed , twisted reflection of the DF. But considering that the entire massed army of dark forest cats manifesting themselves into the living world has less influence collectively, then ashfur does by himself , begs the question .” Are we supposed to believe that he somehow has more festering hatred , then all the other evil cats in the DF combined?”. And superhuman willpower combined with right place, right time isn’t a definitive , rationalized explanation , it’s just “well , I decided it to be that way , no reason to know why it’s that way “. Which is incredibly lazy, uninspired, half-baked writing imo . 4. And how ashfur is capable of using shadowsight as conduit is just another plothole that’s given no definitive elucidation to exactly how he was able to pull it off . And starclans blessing is hardly clarification , since he’s sealed them , and disrupted there powers/authority over the living world , which would be defer ashfur as well unless he’s somehow, inexplicably able to channel there energy , through the barriers and whatnot . And it’s been established since TPB that when a leader does , there spirit remains in Starclan briefly , while they ameliorate there fatal wound , and then Starclan sends there soul back to there body to live out there next life . So we know that starclan is definitely involved in the whole process . And they definitely would of detected ashfur usurping Bramblestars body , and with the fluctuating degrees of power they possess in TBC they’d more then likely be perfectly competent in preventing him taking over his body . Now if your able to overlook these glaring problems/plotholes and writing/universe inconsistencies then your a hell lot more tolerant then I am , cause I’m a freakin stickler . End of the day , the overwhelming quantity of plotholes that riddle this arc like Swiss cheese , and terrible writing combined with the Editors shamelessly being able to rewrite the rules the universe are supposed to follow , to maintain a consistent , believable world that the reader can get connected, and emotionally investedto on a whim , with the fact that they give no elucidation or clarification beyond a very superficial degree of depth , and everything’s so briefly glossed over , that it makes everything very imbalanced . And the conflicts/struggles very disingenuous to the point it makes it completely impossible for me to take it seriously , or feel anything on an emotional level . If they suddenly want to transform warriors into a witchcraft/sorcery and wizardry type series like LoTRs or Harry Potter , then they need to establish a strict set of rules that the universe must follow like every other Series of tha genre . But of course I don’t read warriors for that type of literature , and if I’m craving a more romp Fantasy style adventure , I’m going to read from the dozens of authors that handle them 100x better . 1. None of what Ashfur does is actually beyond what Starclan cats can usually do, it's just used for an evil purpose. Possession we have seen and control over the dead cats is an extension of this, just easier because they're weak shades after being sealed off from the afterlife and only let in by his will. Again, not all Starclan cats were weak at the time of the story. It's entirely possible that Ashfur would have eventually become too weak to maintain his grip, but by that point it seems like it would have been too late to stop the chain reaction that was engulfing the afterlife. 2. The DF cats and Starclan did KNOW that the two realms need to be in balance or else bad things will happen. They may not know exactly what, but they knew the basic concept. That's why Ashfur had to promise the DF cats a home in the living world before he could carry out his plan. It's also why the earlier DF plan with Tigerstar and co. was less self-destructive. They planned to kill the Starclan cats, yes, but they intended to simply conquer its realm for themselves. What Ashfur did was way more dangerous, in that he separated the dimensions entirely. Ashfur has sole authority over this barrier because he's the one that made it. Finders-keepers and all that definitely applies here. As for Ashfur's tunnel, it seems as though Starclan cats can go to the DF but the reverse is not so easy. This is made clear in OOTS and then reiterated further here, where Spottedleaf can casually travel to the DF but the DF cats can't just bumrush Starclan through the woods. As for Starclan undoing his barrier, it seems like it matters which side of the barrier you're actually on in order to do that. Besides, what do Starclan cats have to hope for? They already have everything they could ever want; they don't really have much to hope for and without their viewing pool, they can't even hope for the living world very effectively because they're out of the loop. 3. Is it so impossible that Ashfur had so much will? You cite later in your post other fantasy series, but they do the exact same thing. Why is Voldemort the most powerful wizard, so far above even trained Aurors or what have you? Why is it that Tom Bombadil can just laugh off the One Ring and play with it like it's a toy? Asking the reader to believe Ashfur was just the one with enough will to do this isn't hard to believe. And I don't think it even asks you to do that. It asks you to believe that he can mimic just a fraction of what the DF cats were doing (being they were corrupting an entire other world) over a space of what, a few meters? He used choke points and he used them well. 4. I don't see what's complex about the Shadowsight issue. Ashfur got their blessing beforehand, sealed his barrier, and then under their noses inhabited Shadowsight and then hopped to Bramblestar's body. Once Bramblestar died, Ashfur took him over and kicked out the rest of his body. At no point could Starclan stop him because he'd already blocked the path once he'd dropped down to earth and his own powers remained intact because it wasn't like every Starclan cat was losing their strength either, it was still early. Bramblestar's own soul briefly going to Starclan is irrelevant, because the path a leader's soul takes isn't one that Starclan can follow back down. He'd just get a Harestar esque experience of being in that weird, in-between and then being lurched back to his body. Have you ever read LOTR or Harry Potter? Those series are infamous for being "soft magic" where nothing is explained and there are no real rules for magic, I have no idea why you're bringing that up as a counterexample when those are actually EXACTLY an example of how you can have a fine story without explaining literally every single magical thing that happens or the limitations of said magic. At no point in LOTR does Gandalf just sit down and go "well I can only cast one fireworks spell per day and I can't just call up my bros the eagles to take us to Mordor". It's just taken for granted as part of the magical world why he does things the way he does. Harry Potter is even worse about this. Why do people use Avada Kedavra, which can be dodged, instead of using insta-hit curses like the ones from the earlier books? How is it that the love-sacrifice thing which saved Harry even works? We never get answers to that but it's not really needed. You CAN have a "hard magic" fantasy world like Sanderson's where everything is explained, but acting as though that is inherently superior to soft magic rubs me the wrong way. I don't have any problems with series that use 'soft magic' and don't fully explain the mechanics and inner working of its magical properties, but when you go and just drastically change and exaggerate everything beyond Prior set limitations then I think the reader deserves some elucidation on why the worlds mechanics are being suddenly changed, it's only befitting. and Bramblestars Soul ascending to starclan even briefly as you say, indicates that they still had a connection to the living world and weren't blocked off yet at that point, and with them being the ones that granted their blessing/powers to Ashfur in the first place, would implicate that starclan would possess the power to strip him of their blessing, since there still connected to the living world, thus they'd be able to thwart him from taking over bramblestars body. and it's never explained in OoTS why DF cats can't travel to starclan , but their cats can stroll into the Dark Forest at their leisure, which is just another plothole and reason why Omen of the stars sucked so bad for a lot of people, myself included. And while it has been a while since I've read LotR , most of the Magic that is prevalent across middle-earth is explained in the Simarillion, and other various prequels that elaborate on the gods responsible for the creation of middle-earth etc. and I haven't read Harry potter, cause from the Few movies I've watched in the series I never found them to my tastes or appeal, so I don't any input on the on R.k Rowlings's world works. I actually went into The Broken code with pretty high hopes and expectations, and an open-mind and was perfectly more than complacent to accept the new themes. but the undeniably obvious plotholes, and the editor's complete inability to make definitive rules that apply to everyone, and not just those required for plot convenience. it's never going to come off as a visceral, thought-provoking, compelling world that's going to keep me engaged, and more just come off as cheap comedy/horror. I'm not saying there's any fault for enjoying it, if it suits your fancy then more power to Ya. Glad that some people are able to overlook its glaring flaws and found TBC entertaining. But you and me our just going to have too respectfully agree to disagree, because there's far too many problems and inconsistencies, that some people are able to look pass for sure. but we can't just brush them off like they don't exist and downplay it too just being personal opinion. and personally, I don't have free time to fabricate a bunch of head canons, and theories to rationalize everything and try to piece all the mismatched pieces into a relatively cohesive piece that I would give 2 shits about. it's not the readers job to unscramble the jumbled mess because the authors/editors/writers are too lazy/incompetent to create a cohesive story, AKA actually do their damn jobs that they get paid to do. I have no issues with people that enjoyed TBC, everyone has different tastes. and it's everyone's prerogative if they decide to be complacent with its flaws and roll with them. But attempting to play them off as if they don't exist, is only going to be perceived as arrogance or ignorance, or both in my eyes.
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