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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Nov 8, 2021 11:16:17 GMT -5
I am currently rereading TNP with the intention of trying to get a new grasp on characters. It's changed a lot... For example, I used to be neutral-dislike for Tawnypelt and now I am full on dislike. Mistyfoot has also ended up on my dislike list.
One thing I remember was that Brambleclaw was alright in TNP. However, that's changed with my reread. He's very bossy and likes to take charge. What frustrates me is that he behaviors immaturely a lot, but he's essentially rewarded for those actions. (Like not respecting Mistyfoot when they looked around the territory then she suddenly was like: you have experience leading them, go on!!!)
And once settled, he is accused by a few cats that he's trying to act like a deputy. Which.. he is. He wants to be, but he's rather obnoxious with it. He is also very immature in how he treats Squirrelflight when he's leading a patrol. (They were fighting over Hawkfrost and honestly, he escalates it a lot of the time.)
It seems very in your face and while the narrative is trying to make him noble, he comes off as arrogant and bossy. Not good qualities. I really wish we would have gotten a different deputy, perhaps Dustpelt.
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Post by vectoring34 on Nov 8, 2021 11:19:06 GMT -5
Brambleclaw always stunk, yeah. What made you hate Mistyfoot? I barely remember anything about her.
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Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on Nov 8, 2021 11:22:04 GMT -5
I don't agree with you on your points about how he was around Mistyfoot. He was used to be in charge when travelling, and not because he was bossy, but because the other cats looked at him for decisions and eventually even listened to him (Crowpaw and Squirrelpaw were still rebellious sometimes of course). He felt ashamed when he found himself taking charge, and immediately tried to make up with it by giving Mistyfoot leadership of the patrol. I do agree that I wanted Dustpelt to be deputy instead of him.
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Aroace
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Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Nov 8, 2021 12:34:05 GMT -5
Yes, he is. And? So is Squirrelflight. The only difference between them is that she constantly gets proven right by the narrative (Hawkfrost, taking in Leafpool's kits, The Sisters and so on) while he is often wrong and comes off as either naive or headstrong/stubborn. I previously thought that the statement of "he matches her fire" was false but in a way there is some truth to it. Which really makes them a bad couple due to still not communicating properly with each other to this very day and instead arguing or ignoring the other's concerns. As 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 has already pointed out, Brambleclaw was used to being in charge on the quest to the Sundrown place and thus made the wrong assumption that he was supposed to lead the scouting group around the lake when that position belonged to the highest ranking cat in their expedition, the RiverClan deputy Mistyfoot. He felt ashamed/embarrassed immediately after disrespecting her authority and let her lead on until she chose to draw back a little and even complimented him due to seeing how used to his "bossy nature" the other journey cats were. Later (after finding the last camp and shortly before returning to the waiting Clans at the horseplace):
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Nov 8, 2021 12:37:31 GMT -5
I don't agree with you on your points about how he was around Mistyfoot. He was used to be in charge when travelling, and not because he was bossy, but because the other cats looked at him for decisions and eventually even listened to him (Crowpaw and Squirrelpaw were still rebellious sometimes of course). He felt ashamed when he found himself taking charge, and immediately tried to make up with it by giving Mistyfoot leadership of the patrol. I do agree that I wanted Dustpelt to be deputy instead of him. Thing is, he should have respected Mistyfoot. He didn't. The narrative didn't help with that either. I think they looked at him because he kinda took charge instead of asking? He was hesitant, but he still took over and got upset when he was questioned. Most of the conflicts with Squirrelflight evolved around him not being able to handle that he sometimes didn't need to be in control or had the best decisions. This is expressed in Midnight when he refuses to openly acknowledge she's right because it pissed him off.
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Bisexual
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Nov 8, 2021 12:50:37 GMT -5
Yes, he is. And? So is Squirrelflight. The only difference between them is that she constantly gets proven right by the narrative (Hawkfrost, taking in Leafpool's kits, The Sisters and so on) while he is often wrong and comes off as either naive or headstrong/stubborn. I previously thought that the statement of "he matches her fire" was false but in a way there is some truth to it. Which really makes them a bad couple due to still not communicating properly with each other to this very day. As I stated before, what causes their issues is that he's too stubborn to admit he's wrong. When they were first were fighting about Hawkfrost, he was the one that took low blows and tried to bait her with comments on his father. He often does this tactic of baiting with something emotional while Squirrelflight tried to use reasoning with Mudclaw. He even took his anger out on other warriors during this. (Ashfur during the patrol after Onestar got his lives.)As 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 has already pointed out, Brambleclaw was used to being in charge on the quest to the Sundrown place and thus made the wrong assumption that he was supposed to lead the scouting group around the lake when that position belonged to the highest ranking cat in their expedition, the RiverClan deputy Mistyfoot. He felt ashamed/embarrassed immediately after disrespecting her authority and let her lead on until she chose to draw back a little and even complimented him due to seeing how used to his "bossy nature" the other journey cats were. Which is a complete 180 and doesn't make sense. Mistyfoot was rather mad about his undermining, which she gets enough of with Hawkfrost. I also pointed that out that it didn't make sense. He may have felt ashamed, but he's quick to put others in their place. He can't take what he often dishes out. In Twilight, he's annoying his fellow warriors. Ashfur and Rainwhisker both agree and Mousefur even gets snippy when he snaps at her. His attitude overall in the second half flipped a switch, which Squirrelflight thought during the patrol. He completely changed and really got worse.Later (after finding the last camp and shortly before returning to the waiting Clans at the horseplace): The second he comes to the Clans, he's pushed as this amazing deputy when the only trait he really carries is being bossy. He is too focused on trying to act like a deputy when he should try to improve on his leadership skills. [/quote]
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Nov 8, 2021 13:00:21 GMT -5
Bramblestar is many things, but I don't know, I didn't find him to be that bad when it came to Mistyfoot. He'd been leading the others for awhile now, including with helping lead his entire Clan to a new home, so it makes sense why he'd undermine Mistyfoot if he wasn't used to the typical routine and clearly felt bad for it anyway and even apologized when it happened again.
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Nov 8, 2021 13:12:24 GMT -5
My point is, he's very annoying with it. He's barely likeable with his attitude and I see why there are so many issues with him in general and his relationship with Squirrelflight. The reread was meant to help me like the characters I hated and if anything, it made me hate him more. (Meanwhile I am the point where Leafpool's POV gets.. boring and annoying? Leafpaw was fun to read and the romance just gutted it.)
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Post by kells on Nov 8, 2021 13:13:04 GMT -5
It gets worse later on, too. I've always hated Bramblestar's arrogance and incessant push to get deputyship
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Bisexual
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Nov 8, 2021 13:17:08 GMT -5
It gets worse later on, too. I've always hated Bramblestar's arrogance and incessant push to get deputyship I don't know if anyone would get the reference or remember, but his actions in the later half remind me of when new Clans would pop up on the forums without a deputy and people would role-play like they were the perfect choice, exactly how Brambleclaw is acting in this arc. It's sad that people picked up on it and assumed it's good leadership when it's downright eye-roll inducing.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Nov 8, 2021 13:18:56 GMT -5
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁I am in agreement that Brambleclaw/star is stubborn/headstrong/bossy among other things (just like Squirrelflight) and I already stated that he is usually portrayed to be wrong in the narrative (about Mudclaw, Hawkfrost and so on). But that is how the authors chose to write him in the arcs following the original one (which is quite the shift from his portrayal there). He was also hyped up by the plot to become a great leader (he at least was a good deputy) only for him to end up as mediocre at best. But I cannot bring myself to see Bramblestar as being a bad or evil cat. My emotional attachment (to him and Squirrelflight) is just too strong for any opinion changes at this point. The only times when his character confused me was in Squirrelflight's SE. Sometimes I get the feeling not even the Erin Hunter team really knew what to do with him after the first arc so instead they then (and now) make him as complicated as possible (despite so many fans calling him boring nonetheless).
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Bisexual
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Nov 8, 2021 13:22:16 GMT -5
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁I am in agreement that Brambleclaw/star is stubborn/headstrong/bossy among other things (just like Squirrelflight) and I already stated that he is usually portrayed to be wrong in the narrative (about Mudclaw, Hawkfrost and so on). But that is how the authors chose to write him in the arcs following the original one (which is quite the shift from his portrayal there). He was also hyped up by the plot to become a great leader (he at least was a good deputy) only for him to end up as mediocre at best. But I cannot bring myself to see Bramblestar as being a bad or evil cat. My emotional attachment (to him and Squirrelflight) is just too strong for any opinion changes at this point. The only times when his character confused me was in Squirrelflight's SE. Sometimes I get the feeling not even the Erin Hunter team really knew what to do with him after the first arc so instead they then (and now) make him as complicated as possible (despite so many fans calling him boring nonetheless). I never said he was a bad cat, he's just aggravating. (If anything, he's a horrible mate.) And yes, he was hyped up and is honestly a poor leader.
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Post by kells on Nov 8, 2021 13:23:53 GMT -5
It gets worse later on, too. I've always hated Bramblestar's arrogance and incessant push to get deputyship I don't know if anyone would get the reference or remember, but his actions in the later half remind me of when new Clans would pop up on the forums without a deputy and people would role-play like they were the perfect choice, exactly how Brambleclaw is acting in this arc. It's sad that people picked up on it and assumed it's good leadership when it's downright eye-roll inducing. I know, right? I haven't read TNP in forever but I vividly remember how tasteless he was with his ambition, it still peeves me how he constantly overstepped his boundaries, borderline disrespecting Graystripe and Firestar whenever he attempted to take control of situations when Graystripe went missing. Pretty crappy, and it did not help that the narrative scraped up all of this and called it "noble".
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Bisexual
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Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Nov 8, 2021 13:29:40 GMT -5
I don't know if anyone would get the reference or remember, but his actions in the later half remind me of when new Clans would pop up on the forums without a deputy and people would role-play like they were the perfect choice, exactly how Brambleclaw is acting in this arc. It's sad that people picked up on it and assumed it's good leadership when it's downright eye-roll inducing. I know, right? I haven't read TNP in forever but I vividly remember how tasteless he was with his ambition, it still peeves me how he constantly overstepped his boundaries, borderline disrespecting Graystripe and Firestar whenever he attempted to take control of situations when Graystripe went missing. Pretty crappy, and it did not help that the narrative scraped up all of this and called it "noble". I totally forgot that because of my annoyance with Twilight. It's also weird because some are quick to call out Squirrelflight, but he's older and acts very similar? She has somewhat of a reasoning - being young. However, in Twilight, he's called a senior warrior. (Granted, the timeline is very messed up if I remember correctly. Like Sorreltail would maybe be 21ish moons when she gets her name?)
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Post by Aqua on Nov 8, 2021 13:55:05 GMT -5
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁I am in agreement that Brambleclaw/star is stubborn/headstrong/bossy among other things (just like Squirrelflight) and I already stated that he is usually portrayed to be wrong in the narrative (about Mudclaw, Hawkfrost and so on). But that is how the authors chose to write him in the arcs following the original one (which is quite the shift from his portrayal there). He was also hyped up by the plot to become a great leader (he at least was a good deputy) only for him to end up as mediocre at best. But I cannot bring myself to see Bramblestar as being a bad or evil cat. My emotional attachment (to him and Squirrelflight) is just too strong for any opinion changes at this point. The only times when his character confused me was in Squirrelflight's SE. Sometimes I get the feeling not even the Erin Hunter team really knew what to do with him after the first arc so instead they then (and now) make him as complicated as possible (despite so many fans calling him boring nonetheless). I never said he was a bad cat, he's just aggravating. (If anything, he's a horrible mate.) And yes, he was hyped up and is honestly a poor leader. I don't know how Bramblestar is a poor leader. The only thing I'd consider him doing wrong was refusing to heal Sunrise back in SqH, but other than that, he puts his clan first and makes sure they're protected, safe and happy. He isn't as great as Firestar, but Bramblestar is okay. He's average at best.
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Bisexual
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ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Nov 8, 2021 14:09:23 GMT -5
I never said he was a bad cat, he's just aggravating. (If anything, he's a horrible mate.) And yes, he was hyped up and is honestly a poor leader. I don't know how Bramblestar is a poor leader. The only thing I'd consider him doing wrong was refusing to heal Sunrise back in SqH, but other than that, he puts his clan first and makes sure they're protected, safe and happy. He isn't as great as Firestar, but Bramblestar is okay. He's average at best. He gets upset at the mere question of his authority, which alone says a lot.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Nov 8, 2021 14:11:06 GMT -5
none of the patrol characters is TNP are particularly likeable. feathertail and stormfur are probably the most neutral but they’re also pretty boring.
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Post by Aqua on Nov 8, 2021 14:18:12 GMT -5
none of the patrol characters is TNP are particularly likeable. feathertail and stormfur are probably the most neutral but they’re also pretty boring. Feathertail has the most character to her thanks to ASiR. Even her relationship with Crowpaw revealed some of her fiesty, stubborn side and soft personality. Stormfur was pretty bland. Squirrelflight was just immature and frustrating. I never understood the love for Tawnypelt; it felt like her only role was the rat bite. And I honestly don't remember much of Brambleclaw's character back in TNP other than him wanting to be deputy.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Nov 8, 2021 14:27:19 GMT -5
none of the patrol characters is TNP are particularly likeable. feathertail and stormfur are probably the most neutral but they’re also pretty boring. Feathertail has the most character to her thanks to ASiR. Even her relationship with Crowpaw revealed some of her fiesty, stubborn side and soft personality. Stormfur was pretty bland. Squirrelflight was just immature and frustrating. I never understood the love for Tawnypelt; it felt like her only role was the rat bite. And I honestly don't remember much of Brambleclaw's character back in TNP other than him wanting to be deputy. i’m talking about how she was portrayed in TNP, not later books. i do think Bramble was more interesting/compelling as an apprentice
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Post by kells on Nov 8, 2021 16:07:48 GMT -5
I know, right? I haven't read TNP in forever but I vividly remember how tasteless he was with his ambition, it still peeves me how he constantly overstepped his boundaries, borderline disrespecting Graystripe and Firestar whenever he attempted to take control of situations when Graystripe went missing. Pretty crappy, and it did not help that the narrative scraped up all of this and called it "noble". I totally forgot that because of my annoyance with Twilight. It's also weird because some are quick to call out Squirrelflight, but he's older and acts very similar? She has somewhat of a reasoning - being young. However, in Twilight, he's called a senior warrior. (Granted, the timeline is very messed up if I remember correctly. Like Sorreltail would maybe be 21ish moons when she gets her name?) Idk why Squirrel will get brought up in a convo about Bramble, outside of their relationship, that is. One being worse doesn't excuse how the other acts. Since when were they one cat? Both of them were terrible povs for me to sit through, and their existence alone makes rereading TNP a chore I dread
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Post by vectoring34 on Nov 8, 2021 16:59:10 GMT -5
It gets worse later on, too. I've always hated Bramblestar's arrogance and incessant push to get deputyship I don't know if anyone would get the reference or remember, but his actions in the later half remind me of when new Clans would pop up on the forums without a deputy and people would role-play like they were the perfect choice, exactly how Brambleclaw is acting in this arc. It's sad that people picked up on it and assumed it's good leadership when it's downright eye-roll inducing. "Hello, my OC's name is Thornfang. He's an orphan because his father was the evilest cat in all the clans and almost destroyed them, and everyone is against him from the very start for it. Even his own sister left him to join another clan. He also looks EXACTLY like his father, and even trains with him in the Dark Forest because he wants to know all the best battle techniques. He's such a strong warrior, stronger than anyone except the leader. Oh, also, he's in love with the leader's daughter. I see your clan has no deputy. I think it would be a great fit for my OC . Yeah, I know he hasn't trained any apprentices yet, but there's some new kits here I can just take one as an apprentice, right? And he's so strong and smart that he's got to be the perfect deputy. BTW, if you don't make him deputy, you're just being unfair and judging him for his father : ((("
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Cloudstorm
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Post by Cloudstorm on Nov 8, 2021 22:15:12 GMT -5
Well I mean at least he has ambition , unlike a lot of the characters in the series . While he does have a tendency to be to be headstrong/bossy and an Authoritative type cat , which is unsurprising considering the members of his gene-pool , those aren’t exactly negative Qualities to possess . Does he sometimes allow himself to become aggravated from other questioning or undermining his decisions/authority ? Yes he does, does he at times not conduct himself in a cooperative or diplomatic manner ? Also yes , but that simply makes him a little imperfect character , that sometimes has difficulty controlling his emotions , which doesn’t make him an evil or bad character , perhaps he has a bit of an arrogance problem , and and has a tendency to takes things a bit too personally when his actions are being questioned . I think he made a pretty good deputy , and a fairly competent leader , though it’s undoubtedly suffered under the editorial staffs lackluster prose, slight butchering of character to raise others higher up on the scale “cough tigerstar 2 cough” , he was definitely a inexperienced, wet-behind-the-ears leader back in TNP that had plenty of room for development/maturation etc . And him unintentionally threading on Mistyfoots paws , was most likely just a mistake made out of habit , whether then him attempting to undermine her authority as deputy , or him actionably gunning for deputyship himself in a malicious or challenging manner or whatever . But that’s just my opinion .
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Nov 9, 2021 11:36:13 GMT -5
I don't know if anyone would get the reference or remember, but his actions in the later half remind me of when new Clans would pop up on the forums without a deputy and people would role-play like they were the perfect choice, exactly how Brambleclaw is acting in this arc. It's sad that people picked up on it and assumed it's good leadership when it's downright eye-roll inducing. "Hello, my OC's name is Thornfang. He's an orphan because his father was the evilest cat in all the clans and almost destroyed them, and everyone is against him from the very start for it. Even his own sister left him to join another clan. He also looks EXACTLY like his father, and even trains with him in the Dark Forest because he wants to know all the best battle techniques. He's such a strong warrior, stronger than anyone except the leader. Oh, also, he's in love with the leader's daughter. I see your clan has no deputy. I think it would be a great fit for my OC . Yeah, I know he hasn't trained any apprentices yet, but there's some new kits here I can just take one as an apprentice, right? And he's so strong and smart that he's got to be the perfect deputy. BTW, if you don't make him deputy, you're just being unfair and judging him for his father : (((" This is so perfect. Brambleclaw in a nutshell.
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